Any survivalists/preppers/doomsdayplanners here?

[Captain Maltese]

I have always loved zombiemovies and wilderness camping. Two interests that rarely combine well. But over the last few years I have found that it does sort of combine after all, with the survivalism bunch. The zombie element is the gadzooks jinxies factor of course, but there are so many other and more real life scenarios that equally threatens society as we know it. Virus epidemics, nature disasters, large scale human threats like war and terrorism.... making a few preparations isn't necessarily looniebin activities any more.

I'd like to hear if anyone else are making a few discreet preparations, how, and for what.

[Mathim]

I have always loved zombiemovies and wilderness camping. Two interests that rarely combine well. But over the last few years I have found that it does sort of combine after all, with the survivalism bunch. The zombie element is the gadzooks jinxies factor of course, but there are so many other and more real life scenarios that equally threatens society as we know it. Virus epidemics, nature disasters, large scale human threats like war and terrorism.... making a few preparations isn't necessarily looniebin activities any more.

I'd like to hear if anyone else are making a few discreet preparations, how, and for what.

Even if I could afford it, I wouldn't. Any world like that isn't worth living in, the way I see it. But I won't knock anyone else prepping for it; though I'd have more respect for anyone making an active effort of trying to prevent or at least postpone it.

Seems to me though that different apocalyptic events would demand different preparations, for example a zombie outbreak would need a shelter that's self-sustaining, fortified and a stockpile of various weapons while other types of doomsday events might be more forgiving.

[HannibalBarca]

Not I.  I live in a desert where there's little chance for me to survive, even prepared, if disaster comes.  I don't have the skills of the Native American tribes who lived here long ago, and they themselves barely scratched a living from the Earth.

When the human species hit that bottleneck tens of thousands of years ago, and only some hundred or so humans survived, their environment played a large part in their survival.  I would think that any disaster, however great, would see the same results...whoever happened to be in the right place to reconstitute the species would survive.  Likely, that won't be a choice humans make, it will be a simple roll of the dice by nature.

[Mathim]

I suppose a submarine, if better equipped but similar to the one in World War Z (the book, not the movie), could be the best hope of survival given that it would be immune to just about any natural disaster (since it's underwater, no tsunami or tidal wave events could affect it.)

[CaptainNexus616]

Unless a type of ice age scenario occurred then your screwed when the ocean freezes at least you'll be refrigerated in a nice container.

[HannibalBarca]

The human species is approaching another bottleneck.  To get past this one, we're going to either need to learn to terraform this planet back to a sustainable and habitable climate, or create technology allowing us to live off of the Earth permanently.  Both would be the best idea.

Seriously, if there was a planetary disaster of some kind and humanity survived, it would advance more quickly in the technology arena, what with all the leftover material from our civilization...but would it be more advanced socially? I doubt it.  We're as advanced socially as our species has ever been, but still need to do more so as to get to a point where we stop threatening our overall survival.

[CaptainNexus616]

I know this is off topic but...

Its kinda funny really, if the countries of the world just stopped trying to kill each other for five minutes. Imagine what can be accomplished in five minutes of every country around the world pooling its resources and intelligence to not developing weapons but other things that humanity needs.

The leaps through technology that could be made, the breakthroughs in science, the help those in need could get, the diseases cured.

However because of the fear the few inflict upon us and the boundaries we put on ourselves we have become greedy, cold, and uncaring. Not one society but many across the world.

The reason why all those sci-fi movies you see never show a specific country going into space but a union formed government between them is because they would have never been able to go past our solar system without each country pitching in as an entire planet.

The reason why we have some apolyacplses scenarios like Mad Max and the Fallout game series was because we could not work together and instead decided killing others was the easier solution.

The reason for this is because of difference.

Whether the difference be; gender, race, religion, or ideals. Many thinks our differences make us superior over another but they do not. Our differences are not meant to make us different but the same.

Our different traits is the challenge put before humanity. When we can learn to cease killing each other for the sake of difference and instead learn how to love each other and keep someone different alive will we be able to truly survive.

A message that has been preached by so many religions and philosophers of loving your neighbor.

But because of those extremists who use religion as their reasoning do people become cynical of any form.

When governments that are established to protect the people only abuse them do they inevitably destroy everything their nation stands for and causes wars out of the sake for their own greed. Making men and women slaughter others who are like them at home but are forced to for the sake of their country's leaders.


So when we hate too much and love too little how do progress forward outside of our own destruction?

[Captain Maltese]

Hmmm.... seems I am in a minority here when it comes to actual preparations. But I am not wondering IF there will be a disaster any more, it is just a question of when and how to meet it. I might fall but I am damn if I an going to just wait to fall over. I am taking it as a given that whenever something major happen, the govt will be taking their own sweet time reacting adequately to it. Not for lack of funds, just for lack of wisdom in spending the funds on the right resources at the right time. Doesn't really matter which country or political system you live in.The surest place to look for help in any situation is and will always be in your own hands and wits.

Incidentally. This morning I got a text message on on my phone from the local power company. It fit in with the most recent forecast; a 'monster storm' has changed course and will hit my area within hours. The trees are already moving briskly so yeah, it will get here. The message from the power company was that there will probably be brownouts as grid elements fall out, even though all their resources are standing by. Am I worried? No. I have flashlights and a fireplace, which is sufficient for today. If tomorrow should turn out to be a total blackout then I will make coffee and food on a camping stove. No worries.

My basic emergency kit is BOB, aka the bug out bag. It is your standard backpack type, and it literally contain everything I could want in an emergency situation causing me to leave my home in a hurry. Even if I would have to sleep outdoors for a few days. There's food, medical supplies, flashlight and multitoolset, rope, a proper knife, a pan and fire gear to make warm food and drink, a tarp and a blanket and very compact sleeping bag, etc etc, and.... just for laughs.... a machete. You know, to deal with the zombies. Hahaha. What the machete is actually there for is to remind me not to take the whole thing TOO serious. But I enjoy fiddling with this stuff, so why shouldn't I?

[AmberStarfire]

I'm not but I've thought about it. I was down at the electronics store one day and they had walkie talkies, and it figured into my thinking that maybe a sports bag of supplies kept in a convenient place wouldn't be a terrible idea. Who knows what the future holds, especially these days?

[Captain Maltese]

Amber, a sports bag is a great start. Once you have put it aside, it will ready your general awareness at all time, especially when you see stuff that might be useful to put into it. Rather than make a major investment you will be buying the odd extra when you are shopping anyway, like a two dollar key ring flashligth - did you know a blinking flashlight can be seen a mile away? Or a flask of bottled water, or a pack of biscuits - I could go on all day.

I am somewhat reserved when it comes to walkie talkies as I have bad experiences with them. For one thing, the people you want to get in touch with - cop, fire dept etc - are on closed circuit systems and do not listen on the bandwidths commercial walkies work on. Also they will be swamped on any system they CAN be reached on. Then there is the limited reach, the way city buildings choke down signal further and the odds that the piece of electronic still works and have a working battery the one day you need it. It is not all bad though; if you are a family then having a couple of sets is a good thing. Nor are they that expensive, and you are not forced to trust the big relay towers. like with a cellphone. All I know is that on the one day I really needed my set to work, they failed me - and the 60 other guys I was arranging the 3 day event for.

[Captain Maltese]

Even if I could afford it, I wouldn't. Any world like that isn't worth living in, the way I see it. But I won't knock anyone else prepping for it; though I'd have more respect for anyone making an active effort of trying to prevent or at least postpone it.

Seems to me though that different apocalyptic events would demand different preparations, for example a zombie outbreak would need a shelter that's self-sustaining, fortified and a stockpile of various weapons while other types of doomsday events might be more forgiving.

Well, preparedness does not have to aim for an apocalyptic scenario. Bad things happen on much smaller levels too. Hurricanes, floodings, big fires and brownouts are potentially lethal events that affects millions of people every year, and that does not include the stuff that happens outside europe and the US. And when one of those events happen, there is often no warning. Most people will just grab a jacket and leave. If you have a bag with some supplies in, you won't be sitting in a crammed school gym hall waiting along with 500 others for 'someone' to bring drinking water, food, blankets or toilet paper.

Yeah the zombie scenario is extreme. But there are others. I have studied the Louisiana flooding with interest. Those with cars got out in time. Those who waited for the evac buses waited in vain. Army helicopters started airlifting those who were caught in flooded buildings, after nine DAYS - but the looting and robbing started immediately. And when they finally did start the airlifting, the first places that got evac were the buildings with white people waving to the choppers. I think studying actual scenarios can teach you a lot.

[Sabby]

The human race succeeded by opting out of natural selection. We don't wait for the environment to change and then try and stumble after it and hope we survive, we bend the environment over our knee and say "You serve us now". That's the power of a sentient, tool using animal that can conceptualize. Problem is, we're only just now starting to realize the long term impact of that power. Maybe it's going to take a serious event to make us wake up and give our own power the caution and respect it requires. I don't know. I like to wax poetic about the human species, but I'll admit, I'm a creature of comfort, soft and weak and not prepared for great change or upheaval. If there's backlash for us breaking free of our enslavement to random chance, I just hope I'm dead by the time it happens.

Selfish, I know, but no sense lying to myself to feel stronger than I am.

[The Dark Raven]

Depends on your idea of survivalism. ;)

I will be soon stocking up on things needed to survive the first few months as a new mother with twins, but on a zombiepocalypse scale, I haven't gotten that far yet. ;)

[Oniya]

Depends on your idea of survivalism. ;)

I will be soon stocking up on things needed to survive the first few months as a new mother with twins, but on a zombiepocalypse scale, I haven't gotten that far yet. ;)

As a 'new mother with twins', you won't have to worry about zombies.  You'll be one!  (Yes, they will fall asleep... eventually.  Take advantage of it.)

[The Dark Raven]

As a 'new mother with twins', you won't have to worry about zombies.  You'll be one!  (Yes, they will fall asleep... eventually.  Take advantage of it.)

I will certainly try. :)  I just know I need to stock up on things that don't take much to cook and diapers/wipes/etc.

[Scott]

I'm not but I've thought about it. I was down at the electronics store one day and they had walkie talkies, and it figured into my thinking that maybe a sports bag of supplies kept in a convenient place wouldn't be a terrible idea. Who knows what the future holds, especially these days?

I think they are called bugout bags.

[Ananym]

Yes, bug out bags.  The idea is to have enough to survive on for 3 days. Enough water, protein, carbs, shelter, and utilities to live and travel comfortably if needed.

I've never made one but I used to keep something similar to that in my car. 

Mine had:

Utility Knife
Waterproof matches
Flint/Striker
Canned Heat
Extra set of old gym clothes
Small blanket
Old wind breaker jacket (water resilient)
Couple energy bars
Couple bottles of water
Flashlight/Radio (with windup dynamo for self charging)
Small tool kit
First Aid Kit

I think I was always fairly prepared in case I got stuck out in the middle of nowhere.  They say a good thing to pack is something like the SAS Survival Guide.  That stuff was all just in case of accidents or sudden weather changes, plus we used to go off-roading and never know what'll happen.

If you want to seriously prep a bug out bag you'll need a lot more water, a field weapon (like a woodsmen hatchet), and a firearm with rounds.

I take my son and his friends out trail hiking and for kicks we often talk about how to survive the zombie apocalypse.  We come up with all sort of plans.  I think it's fun as a mental exercise.

Serious prepping I could never get into.  On that note, if I lived in a tornado zone though, I'd probably consider a small underground shelter.

[Oniya]

I take my son and his friends out trail hiking and for kicks we often talk about how to survive the zombie apocalypse.  We come up with all sort of plans.  I think it's fun as a mental exercise.

Apparently, the CDC thinks so as well.

http://www.cdc.gov/phpr/zombies.htm

[Florence]

I play Fallout. I think I'm prepared. I've got the basics. Save all my bottle caps, and I should be set.

[Captain Maltese]

Ananym is on the ball. That's a lot of useful stuff to keep in the car.

A car accident is pretty high up on my emergency likelyhood list. Especially since I live in a rural area and nearby houses or even hourly traffic isn't a given, never mind in the middle of the night. While I have the normal emergency car stuff like reflecting triangle, basic tools, reflecting vest etc I also have a small sandwich sized box within reach should I ever wake up in my car pinned and in a trench. That box contain folding knife, a small flashlight, a few sweets, matches, some first aid supplies etc. Enough to make it through a few nightmare hours and to signal to passing cars even if the car battery is out.

I have a similar box ready to put in my backpack for any longer walk, and oh yes does it contain a small compass. Once you have found yourself walking blindly through forests and marshes under a heavy cloud cover, little details like that start meaning a lot. Been there done that and boy was it a learning experience.

[Lustful Bride]

I am a small time prepper. I got it from my dad, soldier, who saw the worst of humanity in hell holes all around. Have ammo, water purification kit and a stock of emergency food and medicine.

I'm not prepping for an alien invasion or zombie outbreak though. I'm preparing for something more like Katrina, if the power goes out for an extended period of time, no government official keeping order, and people losing their shit and try to take what I got. Anything higher than that...I probably wont even survive long enough to have to worry about the world going full on Fallout.

I think that if there was some global catastrophe though we wouldn't go back to the stone age though. I think itd be more likely we went back to the cowboy/Pre industrial revolution age and would have to slowly crawl our way back up to where we are.

Weve survived tons of mass extinction events, this is just another day at the office.

[SmokingCamels]

Interesting topic for me.  I can get quite long winded about it.  I also have some views that a lot of people might not agree with on this.  I will do my best not to offend anyone's sensibilities.  Please understand that this is my view point.

Survival Kit - yes, I have one.

Salt Tablets
Anti-biotics - you can get the pet store ones for fish tanks without a prescription.  They do the same thing.
Full pack of batteries.  D, C, & Double A.  Extra life.
Flashlight
Roll of Quarters
Case of MREs
2 Bottles of Vitamins - I have the chewable, kids ones.  They do the same thing.
First Aid kit, complete with adrenaline shot, extra gauze, and tape.
Extra socks, the thermal ones.
Crowbar
Hatchet
Wooden matches
Duct Tape
Gerber Tool
King sized, heavy duty garbage bags
Leather jacket
Pack of Bic lighters, Lighter Fluid, and a zippo
Steel Toed boots

When it comes to firearms, it depends on the scenario, buuuuut.  I have a crappy High Point .9mm.  .9mm is the most common pistol ammunition there is.  Though my preference is for my sexy .45.  Also keep a Mossberg 12 guage and a box of shells, a lever action 30-30 and a box of shells too.  My 30-30 has a scope and is sighted in to be dead accurate at 100 yards.  My shotgun has been modified with a side saddle, foregrip, and flashlight that I can turn on and off by squeezing the foregrip trigger.  The first one is Bird shot.  The next four are double odd buck.  The last one is a slug, just for good luck. ;)  I've also got a civilian model AK-47 and an AR-15.  I have enough ammunition for each, but again, it depends on the particular disaster as to which one is used.  Sadly, it will be the AR-15 in most cases.  In truth, I'd probably only bother with it if I was forced to hunker down.

You may be wondering why I don't carry water.  2 reasons.  It's heavy and cumbersome, and it's easy enough to get and purify if you've got half a brain.  You may be wondering why I don't have any blankets or stuff like that.  Again, heavy and cumbersome.  I'm quite capable of starting a fire if need be, and breaking into a place that I can secure if need be.

Now, I am the sort who makes up for being slow by carrying extra bullets.

Let's assume this is a major disaster and collapse of government on a large scale.  (Yay, the South really does win the American Civil War)  Let's also, to avoid potential ethnic, religious, and other social conundrums here by sticking to a Zombie Apocalypse.  At least for now.

Here are the things you need to remember.

1.  Stay mobile.  The last thing you want to do is hunker down.  Walkers, Runners, crazed cannibal fanatics, whatever the type, you need to stay mobile.  If you hunker down, sooner or later you are going to attract attention.  Even something as minor as a baby crying or lighting a fire.  If you're not attracting zombies, you are attracting other survivors.
2.  Zombies are affected by terrain too.  Therefore you need to keep to areas where the terrain is to your advantage.
3.  You need to be able to survive for about a year.  By that point, the zombie's body will decay and deteriorate to the point where decomposition has already killed it for you. 
4.  Live and let die.  Discretion is the better part of valor.  If you get stuck with a woman and kids?  Leave them behind.  If you've got wounded?  Leave them behind.  If something is a hundred yards away from you?  Ignore it and quietly move on.  There's no point in wasting ammunition, exposing yourself, or drawing attention.
5.  Everyone is an enemy until they prove otherwise.  You remain cautious, alert, and aggressive.  You show no mercy and no empathy.  You're trying to survive, not die.

Now, lets assume it's a natural disaster, and/or we blast ourselves back to the stone age.

Most of the above rules still apply.  Though in this type of situation, the barter system becomes available.  At which point, you need to also remember

A.  Money is worthless.
B.  Bullets, Medicine, and Women become currency.  Sorry ladies, but it's true.  You've got something most men on the planet want.  It'll help you get what you want.  I'm not trying to be sexist.
C.  Cigarettes & Booze are also highly sought after commodities.
D.  People are, by their very nature, herd animals.  They will eventually re-establish a community and sooner or later one community will produce something the other wants and the cycle will renew itself.

Now, let's assume it's the worst of all possible scenarios, at least for America.  WAR.

If it's a Civil War, we're absolutely screwed.  However, you'll want to make sure you're stocked up on your bullets for the AR-15.  They now are the most common type of ammo.  If it's a foreign army invading the United States, they are screwed.  There isn't really a chance they can win.  There isn't much of a chance at all.  Even if the most logical choice, an EMP detonation rocks several major cities, it's still virtually impossible to do it without the rest of the country knowing.  It would only be possible to blitzkrieg and disable EVERY major city's source of government.  Even still, the civilian population is too prepared to fight.  Add to it, that in this sort of event, mobilizing the military for counter offensives across the country is one of the few things the surviving government will actually be on point about.  Even the worst case scenario turns out quite a bit like Red Dawn.  Hooray for the Tex/Mex border and the Southeast. 

Some things to remember here are...

1.  Avoid the mountains.  Anyone familiar with what happens in the mountains?  Soldiers can't hit you with red dots.  So red dots turn into red triangles.  Mountains become hills.  Hills become rubble.
2.  Statistically, 1 out of every 3 homes in America has a firearm.  3 out of 5 of them have multiple firearms.
3.  The enemy of my enemy is my friend.  Kind of.  At least until the bullets stop flying at you both.
4.  Celebrities, politicians, and religious zealots are the first to die.  Following them will be the peace keepers, those who are too vocal and paint targets of themselves, sympathizers, and the extremely wealthy.  They have nothing of actual value.  And, as nature intended, survival is for the fittest.  Might does in fact, make right.  You can't talk a bullet into not killing you.  And someone who is trying to kill you wants you to be dumb enough to stand up and try and talk them out of their mission.  Modern media likes to glorify the "art" of diplomacy and tell a story with a happy ending.  The truth is, you get killed, and if you're even remembered, you'll be mocked.  You won't be a martyr, a hero, or anything of the sort.  You'll be just another dead body.  Kinda gloomy, isn't it?
5.  Avoid any source of major transit.  That's one of the easiest ways to get yourself caught and ambushed.
6.  The Bayou is your friend.  Everything there is edible, even if it wants to eat you too.  Heavy armor units can't penetrate it, and the naturally dense cover protects you from being spotted.  The natural heat means you have to worry less about shelter.  And heaven forbids you get a boat... then you head on out to one of the many places in the Caribbean.  Congratulations, you're destined for survival, provided you don't screw it up on your own at this point.

I digress.  I've already said too much, I think.  But I can go on and on and on about this topic.  I also hope nobody is offended by anything I said.  It is not my intention.  :)

[AmberStarfire]

I think if someone reached a point where surviving required leaving behind women and children (men and children too), and the injured to die, survival would have little to no worth. Some things have to matter in order for the larger picture to matter.

Men also have something women want, so that situation could work both ways, but it would be less likely to.

[SmokingCamels]

I agree.  I was talking about the survival of small groups, not large communities.  A large community doesn't need a survival kit.  It needs a plantation with a big fence, ways to defend itself, water, and medical facilities.  :)

[Mathim]

I think if someone reached a point where surviving required leaving behind women and children (men and children too), and the injured to die, survival would have little to no worth. Some things have to matter in order for the larger picture to matter.

Men also have something women want, so that situation could work both ways, but it would be less likely to.

That's kind of my point, there are way too many things that can be taken away that would make life not worth living, let alone giving up on our most deeply held moral beliefs.

[RubySlippers]

I'm the spouse of a military officer, I'm not worried, if the situation was as dire as you say who has access to the most guns, technology, medicine, food, fuel and options to protect themselves and their loved ones - our men and women in uniform. And a alpha male or female protecting her loved ones from death is a very dangerous person and more importantly they could tell the civilian government to go screw themselves if needed, they would hesitate to do so, but in the end could.

I have a bug out bag and Hurricane evacuation plan but being in Florida that is something one needs to have.

Assuming survival is possible if a giant meteor hits us its likely game over.  :-\

[SmokingCamels]

The interesting thing here is how many of you are saying life wouldn't be worth living if you had to make the sacrifices that would be required of you to do so.  You're exactly the people who wouldn't make it in the first place.  Religious beliefs, morality, all of that stuff is based on nothing more than opinion in the first place.  Opinions don't matter.  Facts do.  The fact is, mother nature did not invent religion.  Humans did.  Mother nature did not make a declaration that the weak needed to be protected.  In fact, the natural course of things is that the weak die and make room for the strong.  Morality is not a natural aspect of life.  It is taught.

Let's just take Amber's response.

Let's assume for a moment, in this hypothetical situation, it's you, your three children who are 8 (Timmy), 6 (Jimmy), and 2 (Jenny), an old couple, the man doesn't get around well and wears glasses, the woman is overweight, and me.  We've got, whatever we can carry.  I'm the one carrying the heavy load.  We've had to withdraw from whatever medium sized town we live in to a less densely populated area, a trailer park, for example, because we need supplies that are relatively easy to access, without many around us, and we need to avoid places that have already been picked to death by others.  Let's also, for the sake of argument, assume this is a Zombie survival.

Jenny wants her daddy, who got gnawed to death three nights ago after sacrificing himself so you and your children could get away.  You've had to abandon your vehicle due to road congestion and clutter.  Jimmy is suffering from PTSD because he's seen the whole thing and his mind can't grasp it.  Timmy wants to be brave.  The older couple is cold, hungry, and the man's hip is bothering him, slowing him down even more. 

We've hunkered down inside a missing Redneck's trailer.  He happened to have a few supplies, but his best supplies were his makeshift set of tools, his busted up 4 x 4, and some canned food.  There was a .38 revolver and a half box of shells that was left behind, a shotgun with no ammo, and a 22 rifle with all the bullets anyone would need.  He clearly was smart enough to leave the low capacity revolver and low damage .22 behind.  Because he had paid his bills, the electric and water are still on (as there was nobody at the utility companies there to press the button that shuts them off).

Aside from me, you are the only one who is remotely combat effective.  2 out of 7.  Nobody in this group is a threat to me, even if they wanted to be, except, because I am slowed down and concerned with everyone else's well being, thanks to your sense of morality, which, on a subconscious level, part of me wants to believe.  I am not, after all, a monster.  However, you know in your heart, first chance I get, I'm gone and not looking back.  Without me and/or an immediate replacement, your odds go down dramatically. 

Now, we haven't explored the whole trailer park.  We've only secured the one trailer for ourselves for the night.  It's roughly 3:30 in the morning.  The redneck who lived here just rolled up to the place with a couple of his redneck buddies, armed to the teeth with shotguns, spotlights, beer, a couple of pistols, and one of them has an assault rifle.  They also have an SUV.  The redneck who lived here knows something is up because the place has been tampered with.  His door is also locked.  Now he knows for sure someone is in there.  One way or another, he's getting inside.  We can't trust them.  You're a pretty lady, and the only one that isn't a zombie for miles.  I've got supplies they want, like extra ammo for a shotgun, for starters.  Now, it gets worse.  Jenny starts crying because of the ruckus.  Jimmy huddles up and covers his ears.  You're desperately trying to protect your kids.  There's 3 of them.  At least.  I might be able to take them, but as soon as they realize they can shoot through the tinfoil hut, we're even more screwed.  It gets even worse.  The ruckus has got the attention of every zombie in the immediate vicinity.  Surrender is not an option, especially if we started shooting first.  Or they started shooting.  That will end up with us losing our gear and being sent moving again.  I -might- make it due to my own survival instinct.  The older couple won't, and your children are your liability.  You'll have to cave, more or less, and do what they want, and at every opportunity your children will be used against you.

Congratulations.  Your morality has just gotten us all killed, even though it seemed like a good idea at the time. ;)

That is why, in order to survive a situation like that, I will leave the women and children, elderly, sick, injured, whatever, behind.  It is also why I will completely disregard any sense of morality.  Those who travel with me are those who can keep up, who have no attachments that will get their brain in a bind, and who possess useful skills I need.  You say what's the point of living such a bleak life?  I say you have to make the sacrifice so you can have a life when it's over.

Anyway... I went on for too long again.  Like I said, this is an interesting topic for me.  I really can go on and on and on.

[Captain Maltese]

Hoo boy, so much to respond to. I am going to enjoy this, even though it will take several posts.

-----------

Rubyslippers, first: I do agree that being on a military base when the shit hits the fan is a very favorable scenario. Where I live this is about as likely as winning the top prize in lotto, even though the nearest military vehicle repair station is within walking distance of my home. We are a 5 million person country and have about 25.000 men and women uniform, nationwide. That leaves me with about 0,005 soldiers to watch over my ass in an emergency, and that is before deducting the guys who have been in service for less than a week and the guys in administrative functions. I feel so safe. Not. Oh, and as for police.... on a normal weekend, there are two blue coats watching over the nearest 40.000 citizens. Not two units, not two full patrol car. Two guys.  Yeah we don't have a lot of violent crime in these parts but even so. Imagine having to wait for their help in an actual emergency. I am planning on not ever have to.

That said, a military base has its own inherent hazards. It is such an obvious target, for one thing, although I do agree that an enemy attack on home soil is the least problem American servicemen have. Nor is a terrorist attack likely to do major damage, the sprawling of buildings considered versus what weapon systems are readily available. In my opinion the greatest realistic risk is a virus outbreak, since the US army has not really been trained to deal with this. As proof of this I offer the latest western african outbreak of Ebola. I think something like two thousand american soldiers were sent to Liberia to help out, but most of them ended up not been utilized outside their own camp IF I REMEMBER CORRECTLY because they had in no way been trained adequately for the situation. And one thing we did learn of the US preparedness for Ebola inside US borders was that the total of facilities for treating infected cases was five. Not five hospitals but five beds. If this has been improved on in the last year I am not updated. So basically I am seeing a military camp as a place where tens of thousands of people sweat, work, exercise, socialize and eat together then go home to their families. A breeding ground like no other, should a really bad virus strike.

But with a bug out bag and an evac plan you are already better off than most.

[SmokingCamels]

Military bases are a bad idea.  Every Tom, Dick, and Sally with a way to get there is going to get there.  Plus, US soldiers, contrary to what the rest of the world wants to believe, are not peace keepers.  They're trained like this.  "Aiiiiirrrrrboooorrrrnnneee.  Shoot.  Shoot.  Shoot-shoot to kill!"  "If I am killed in a Russian front, bury me in a Russian C*nt"  And... lessee, what was another one I remember marching too?  I don't.  But I remember sounding off with, "First platoon is second to none!  If we can't do it, it can't be done!"  I also remember having a Drill Sgt burning these words into my brain.  "Private!  Your job is not to die for your country!  It's to make other people die for theirs!  Now get on that M60 like you own it son!"  Military personnel will do their best, but they will quickly be overwhelmed.  And if they are fighting an invading force too?  The last thing they want is civilians anywhere near their battlefield.

Best bet for real?  Find the criminals.  The drug dealers, the gangsters, and if you're lucky, organized crime.  Motorcycle Clubs, too, are good places.  They've got a lot of the same supplies you want and need, they're going to be just as willing to fight for what is "theirs" and they are, ultimately, going to be more hospitable and useful.

[Captain Maltese]

SmokingCamels, you bring an interesting edge to this thread and I think some of the points you make are pretty good. I could not possibly bring it all up in a single reply so bear with me.

One point you mention is whether survival hinges on complete solo self focus versus group thinking. The survival of the fittest, if you like.

I am by nature, at least in this phase of my life, a solitary creature. I live by myself and I doubt that will ever change again. One of my remaining goals in life is to be self reliant; to avoid asking anyone for help of any kind if I can manage without. A survival scenario for me is mainly a situation of decreasing access to the goods that cover my needs. However, though I am not close to people I do have relatives within the nearest 50 miles and if disaster struck I would feel a need to check up with them that they are okay, one way or another. Depending on the nature of the emergency I might feel it was my duty to help them. But I would not myself seek out another group of random survivors merely for companionship or to seek support from them. On the other hand I doubt anyone would seek me out for my help, so it all evens up. Every man is an island; it is a harsh way to think but it works for me. I may not be much of a wolf but I never walked with the sheep.

So no, I would not go for survival of the fittest for my part. As I see it there are things worth dying for even when the world ends.

[Lapine]

I don't prep for any sort of major catastrophe, but I do for things that seem more likely and definitely survivable:  sudden lack of funds through emergency or loss of job, power outage, things of that nature.  If there were, for instance, a major nuclear war, I'd frankly hope to be gone in the first strike; I'm too old to want to try to deal with surviving both the attack and the "winter" that would follow; that's for younger, stronger folk than me.

[SmokingCamels]

I'd like to believe that I'd survive any sort of catastrophe.

Something that was pointed out in the post above yours was that "There are things worth dying for."

Eh...

Still a backwards belief in my book.  Maybe there are things worth dying for.  But aren't there things worth living for?  Or is that just how weak the human survival instinct is these days that it's better to die than make a sacrifice and live?  It isn't about death for me.  It's about survival.

[AmberStarfire]

There are things worth living for but I wouldn't want to compromise myself to do it. I have strong views when it comes to honour and loyalty, death, and protecting myself and others. If I acted in a way that I consider dishonourable, then I would consider myself a lesser person because of it. I'm alive because I've made it this far and when life got hard, I stuck with it. My life is here for me to use constructively, and not just for the sake of survival. Sooner or later I will die, the same as everyone else. If I can help people, I will. If I had to die to save someone I love or who I felt I should save, then I would probably do it. That's not weakness or an inability to survive, that's a choice. That being said, maybe an inability to survive might not hinge on a choice. I just know I would at least try to act properly (as I see it) and take a chance if it means saving another person. Not only would it be the right thing to do (again, from my opinion), but if I didn't, I'd wonder the rest of my life if I could've done more. Conversely, if someone attacked or threatened the life of those I love, I would do what's necessary to take them down.

[SmokingCamels]

So lets assume that for whatever reason, you are with a group.

Let's say that group is between the ages of 14 and 60, and has at least 10, but no more than 20.  It is mixed gender, and everyone has to contribute to the effectiveness of the whole.  I don't care if you're crippled and in a wheelchair, you can at least sit by a window with a rifle, or make peanut butter sammiches to keep everyone up on their protein, or hell, teach the two guys who can barely spell their name how to read.  But everyone has to contribute in some way or they aren't making it into the group.  Therefore, everyone must be armed even if it's with a baseball bat or makeshift spear, everyone must be able to either provide services, security, or goods, and your first priority at this point is to secure a shelter. 

What do you look for in a "base" for a group that size?

[AmberStarfire]

Base as in somewhere to stay and avoid the threat?

I'd say it depends on the nature of the threat and what the group is up against. What's the weather like? What natural resources are there nearby that are needed or can be found? What's the terrain like? Is it out in the middle of nowhere or in a city? Is it a temporary situation or a permanent one? 

In any case, I never said I was an expert survivalist. Far from it, actually.

[Captain Maltese]

A base? Hm, I will bite. I live in a fairly small place; a little bit of suburbia with a nearby industrial area and a lot of rural farming. There's forests and valleys, a big river and the sea in the fjord. In an apocalyptic setting I'd want to be fairly near the sea as that's where the best quick food source can be found. A farm would be an obvious choice as they are sufficiently isolated from other houses that you can control the surroundings with just a couple of scoped rifles and binoculars. There would also be other bonuses like extensive amounts of farming machinery, chemicals of various types, and probably a tool shop large enough to tackle diesel engines.

Utilizing the facility would not be difficult. I'd board up the windows, put a basic observation platform on the roof, and make a gate outside the front door to be able to control how many could enter at the same time. A diesel aggregate would provide electricity for some basic needs like radio and vital light fixtures. Most rural farms here have their own plumbing and water source, but I would also want to fill up basins or tanks with fresh water. Especially since the water supply often require an electrical pump. But we have long long traditions here with farming, so long that electricity and engines are just a recent invention.

The farm would be our base, then, unless the group of survivors increased by a magnitude.   

[SmokingCamels]

A farm is a great base.  And if you've got a dairy farm, you've got your food source and a built in fence too.  A gun helps you hold it.  A few guns help it prosper.  Let's not forget the actual barn itself, too.  No, I agree a large farm house (and down here in the south especially) or plantation is exactly a good spot to go. 

[Captain Maltese]

I'd like to believe that I'd survive any sort of catastrophe.

Something that was pointed out in the post above yours was that "There are things worth dying for."

Eh...

Still a backwards belief in my book.  Maybe there are things worth dying for.  But aren't there things worth living for?  Or is that just how weak the human survival instinct is these days that it's better to die than make a sacrifice and live?  It isn't about death for me.  It's about survival.

I will attempt very hard to stay alive in any emergency, simply because I refuse to fall over and die on the whim of anyone or anything. That's a spinal instinct. But it has little to do with any desire on my part to extend my life. Sure there are things worth living a little longer for. Read the Terry Pratchett book that I still haven't read. Drink more coffee. Discover a tasty wine. But I would be kidding myself if I saw this as important. What is my life worth anyway? My default fate is to get a bit older, gain some more illnesses, get older, live in pain, and all in all have a good chance to spend the last two decade of my life in a chair and bed with a fantastic view of a corridor and the diaper changes of my three nearest room mates. With luke warm fish fingers and mashed unsalted potatoes for dinner three times per week and porridge the rest of the week. It's the sophisticated ending of life for most western europeans in our times; to go out not with a defiant scream and your hands on a weapon, but with a semi awake gurgle in front of a tv showing the same spineless series over and over. Bedtime is at 1700 because the evening shift is too small to put people to bed. We get older and older for every generations, and a good death is a concept that belongs in history books. The only way to even experience risk is to speed on the highway. And seeing this future, dying for something worthwhile becomes just one more daydream. Were we really warriors once?

[LtRipley]

I wouldn't say I'm a survivalist but I have started learning about wild edibles here of late, identifying plants and mushrooms that can be eaten and the like. I've also been learning natural first aid alongside that, so plants that can be used medicinally if you're out and don't have anything on hand to use to control infection or pain.

[Captain Maltese]

I wouldn't say I'm a survivalist but I have started learning about wild edibles here of late, identifying plants and mushrooms that can be eaten and the like. I've also been learning natural first aid alongside that, so plants that can be used medicinally if you're out and don't have anything on hand to use to control infection or pain.

Now there's a useful interest. My skills on this area are rather limited but there is one plant that I have been aware of since I was a kid. Here it's called the 'healing leaf" but the official name is Plantago Major. We can find it at any roadside in my country, and one story insists that it was first spread through Europe by the marching roman armies. The big leaf is simply picked up and put directly on the wound; a poultice is even better. This used to be folklore but modern science has confirmed it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plantago_major

[The Dark Raven]

Interesting topic for me.  I can get quite long winded about it.  I also have some views that a lot of people might not agree with on this.  I will do my best not to offend anyone's sensibilities.  Please understand that this is my view point.

Survival Kit - yes, I have one.

Salt Tablets
Anti-biotics - you can get the pet store ones for fish tanks without a prescription.  They do the same thing.
Full pack of batteries.  D, C, & Double A.  Extra life.
Flashlight
Roll of Quarters
Case of MREs
2 Bottles of Vitamins - I have the chewable, kids ones.  They do the same thing.
First Aid kit, complete with adrenaline shot, extra gauze, and tape.
Extra socks, the thermal ones.
Crowbar
Hatchet
Wooden matches
Duct Tape
Gerber Tool
King sized, heavy duty garbage bags
Leather jacket
Pack of Bic lighters, Lighter Fluid, and a zippo
Steel Toed boots

When it comes to firearms, it depends on the scenario, buuuuut.  I have a crappy High Point .9mm.  .9mm is the most common pistol ammunition there is.  Though my preference is for my sexy .45.  Also keep a Mossberg 12 guage and a box of shells, a lever action 30-30 and a box of shells too.  My 30-30 has a scope and is sighted in to be dead accurate at 100 yards.  My shotgun has been modified with a side saddle, foregrip, and flashlight that I can turn on and off by squeezing the foregrip trigger.  The first one is Bird shot.  The next four are double odd buck.  The last one is a slug, just for good luck. ;)  I've also got a civilian model AK-47 and an AR-15.  I have enough ammunition for each, but again, it depends on the particular disaster as to which one is used.  Sadly, it will be the AR-15 in most cases.  In truth, I'd probably only bother with it if I was forced to hunker down.

You may be wondering why I don't carry water.  2 reasons.  It's heavy and cumbersome, and it's easy enough to get and purify if you've got half a brain.  You may be wondering why I don't have any blankets or stuff like that.  Again, heavy and cumbersome.  I'm quite capable of starting a fire if need be, and breaking into a place that I can secure if need be.

Now, I am the sort who makes up for being slow by carrying extra bullets.

Let's assume this is a major disaster and collapse of government on a large scale.  (Yay, the South really does win the American Civil War)  Let's also, to avoid potential ethnic, religious, and other social conundrums here by sticking to a Zombie Apocalypse.  At least for now.

Here are the things you need to remember.

1.  Stay mobile.  The last thing you want to do is hunker down.  Walkers, Runners, crazed cannibal fanatics, whatever the type, you need to stay mobile.  If you hunker down, sooner or later you are going to attract attention.  Even something as minor as a baby crying or lighting a fire.  If you're not attracting zombies, you are attracting other survivors.
2.  Zombies are affected by terrain too.  Therefore you need to keep to areas where the terrain is to your advantage.
3.  You need to be able to survive for about a year.  By that point, the zombie's body will decay and deteriorate to the point where decomposition has already killed it for you. 
4.  Live and let die.  Discretion is the better part of valor.  If you get stuck with a woman and kids?  Leave them behind.  If you've got wounded?  Leave them behind.  If something is a hundred yards away from you?  Ignore it and quietly move on.  There's no point in wasting ammunition, exposing yourself, or drawing attention.
5.  Everyone is an enemy until they prove otherwise.  You remain cautious, alert, and aggressive.  You show no mercy and no empathy.  You're trying to survive, not die.

Now, lets assume it's a natural disaster, and/or we blast ourselves back to the stone age.

Most of the above rules still apply.  Though in this type of situation, the barter system becomes available.  At which point, you need to also remember

A.  Money is worthless.
B.  Bullets, Medicine, and Women become currency.  Sorry ladies, but it's true.  You've got something most men on the planet want.  It'll help you get what you want.  I'm not trying to be sexist.
C.  Cigarettes & Booze are also highly sought after commodities.
D.  People are, by their very nature, herd animals.  They will eventually re-establish a community and sooner or later one community will produce something the other wants and the cycle will renew itself.

Now, let's assume it's the worst of all possible scenarios, at least for America.  WAR.

If it's a Civil War, we're absolutely screwed.  However, you'll want to make sure you're stocked up on your bullets for the AR-15.  They now are the most common type of ammo.  If it's a foreign army invading the United States, they are screwed.  There isn't really a chance they can win.  There isn't much of a chance at all.  Even if the most logical choice, an EMP detonation rocks several major cities, it's still virtually impossible to do it without the rest of the country knowing.  It would only be possible to blitzkrieg and disable EVERY major city's source of government.  Even still, the civilian population is too prepared to fight.  Add to it, that in this sort of event, mobilizing the military for counter offensives across the country is one of the few things the surviving government will actually be on point about.  Even the worst case scenario turns out quite a bit like Red Dawn.  Hooray for the Tex/Mex border and the Southeast. 

Some things to remember here are...

1.  Avoid the mountains.  Anyone familiar with what happens in the mountains?  Soldiers can't hit you with red dots.  So red dots turn into red triangles.  Mountains become hills.  Hills become rubble.
2.  Statistically, 1 out of every 3 homes in America has a firearm.  3 out of 5 of them have multiple firearms.
3.  The enemy of my enemy is my friend.  Kind of.  At least until the bullets stop flying at you both.
4.  Celebrities, politicians, and religious zealots are the first to die.  Following them will be the peace keepers, those who are too vocal and paint targets of themselves, sympathizers, and the extremely wealthy.  They have nothing of actual value.  And, as nature intended, survival is for the fittest.  Might does in fact, make right.  You can't talk a bullet into not killing you.  And someone who is trying to kill you wants you to be dumb enough to stand up and try and talk them out of their mission.  Modern media likes to glorify the "art" of diplomacy and tell a story with a happy ending.  The truth is, you get killed, and if you're even remembered, you'll be mocked.  You won't be a martyr, a hero, or anything of the sort.  You'll be just another dead body.  Kinda gloomy, isn't it?
5.  Avoid any source of major transit.  That's one of the easiest ways to get yourself caught and ambushed.
6.  The Bayou is your friend.  Everything there is edible, even if it wants to eat you too.  Heavy armor units can't penetrate it, and the naturally dense cover protects you from being spotted.  The natural heat means you have to worry less about shelter.  And heaven forbids you get a boat... then you head on out to one of the many places in the Caribbean.  Congratulations, you're destined for survival, provided you don't screw it up on your own at this point.

I digress.  I've already said too much, I think.  But I can go on and on and on about this topic.  I also hope nobody is offended by anything I said.  It is not my intention.  :)

You forgot the most important thing.  Water.  You say it is cumbersome and easy for someone to purify "with half a brain."  Without the means to do so (which you do not put in your list), you would be up a creek.  You also do not mention what you would do for warmth without your trusty bic.  What about flint and steel?  What about thermal blankets (that are neither bulky or cumbersome)?

What do you do if your bic fuel spills on your skin?  You automatically have a 2nd degree chemical burn.  Do you know how to fix that in a post-apocalyptic situation?  I do.

Also, if you do not have reloading supplies, no firearm will be useful.  9mm PB do not reload (the brass is too small).  Try a larger gauge, and make sure you have enough powder (and the method to make more), more primers (because those can't be remade for cartridge brass), and a source of bullets.  IF you don't you will be learning black powder methods, which are less accurate, but more deadly.

[Captain Maltese]

Umm. Dark Raven, I have no doubt that you have practical experience to back you up. Professional maybe? But I am a home reloader of ammo and 9mm is something I have produced a bit of for my trusty old CZ75, and the number of shells I have had to discard on account of cracking is very very small. But I am well aware that any modern firearm is going to be useless once the supply of ammo and reloading items dries out, so I am looking into getting myself a decent bow too.

I would love to hear more about how to treat burn wounds without professional medical supplies at hand. I think the best I could do for someone right now is put on antibacterial gel and a bandage on top of it.

[The Dark Raven]

Umm. Dark Raven, I have no doubt that you have practical experience to back you up. Professional maybe? But I am a home reloader of ammo and 9mm is something I have produced a bit of for my trusty old CZ75, and the number of shells I have had to discard on account of cracking is very very small. But I am well aware that any modern firearm is going to be useless once the supply of ammo and reloading items dries out, so I am looking into getting myself a decent bow too.

I would love to hear more about how to treat burn wounds without professional medical supplies at hand. I think the best I could do for someone right now is put on antibacterial gel and a bandage on top of it.

My father in law is a gunsmith.  The CB on 9mm is a lot more prone to splits, but also in a survival situation, 9mm really isn't the ideal size to take down something potentially much bigger than a person.

As for treating burns, aloe (the plant) and honey are my natural go-tos.  Honey is naturally antibiotic and neutralizes chemical burns (personal experience with butane lighter fuel).

[Captain Maltese]

My father in law is a gunsmith.  The CB on 9mm is a lot more prone to splits, but also in a survival situation, 9mm really isn't the ideal size to take down something potentially much bigger than a person.

As for treating burns, aloe (the plant) and honey are my natural go-tos.  Honey is naturally antibiotic and neutralizes chemical burns (personal experience with butane lighter fuel).

That is extremely interesting about the honey. I will add it to my emergency stocks since burns are one of the most likely wounds.

I do agree that there are heavier calibres than 9mm out there. But there is one plus about it, and that is that all the cops and military forces - in my country - use 9mm for their pistols and submachine guns, and sports stores and shooting ranges tend to stock it. The only other really popular small arms calibres are .32 and .22 and we both know what stopping power THEY have. But I might get a .44 revolver Magnum one day since I have the loading gear for it already.  Those things are wicked with a scope.

[The Dark Raven]

That is extremely interesting about the honey. I will add it to my emergency stocks since burns are one of the most likely wounds.

I do agree that there are heavier calibres than 9mm out there. But there is one plus about it, and that is that all the cops and military forces - in my country - use 9mm for their pistols and submachine guns, and sports stores and shooting ranges tend to stock it. The only other really popular small arms calibres are .32 and .22 and we both know what stopping power THEY have. But I might get a .44 revolver Magnum one day since I have the loading gear for it already.  Those things are wicked with a scope.

Knowing how people riot and mob stores in emergency situations, the ammo probably won't last after the first week.  You would probably be better served going for bows or spears and learning how to fletch, because those things you can get in the wild.

[Captain Maltese]

Knowing how people riot and mob stores in emergency situations, the ammo probably won't last after the first week.  You would probably be better served going for bows or spears and learning how to fletch, because those things you can get in the wild.

Let's not forget the crossbows. Depending on the situation they can be very useful at reasonable range and pack a lot of power. I have a small one that I bought online for a few bucks and with a razor tip it's a very real menace. On the other hand the compound bows they sell these days have become considerable tools as well.

As for hunting... I have done that, with shotgun and with rifle. But I would still go for snare hunting first any day if my tummy depends on it. Game is wary.

Fletching is a rare skill these days. Are you experienced with it?

[The Dark Raven]

Let's not forget the crossbows. Depending on the situation they can be very useful at reasonable range and pack a lot of power. I have a small one that I bought online for a few bucks and with a razor tip it's a very real menace. On the other hand the compound bows they sell these days have become considerable tools as well.

As for hunting... I have done that, with shotgun and with rifle. But I would still go for snare hunting first any day if my tummy depends on it. Game is wary.

Fletching is a rare skill these days. Are you experienced with it?

Fletching is something i would like to get into, but my interest is from my understanding of medieval history.  At any decent draw weight, any bow can be very very deadly.  Crossbows are probably the heaviest draw, by virtue of their size.

You can also fish with a bow and line, as well as a spear.

[Captain Maltese]

Fletching is something i would like to get into, but my interest is from my understanding of medieval history.  At any decent draw weight, any bow can be very very deadly.  Crossbows are probably the heaviest draw, by virtue of their size.

Wellllll... the thing about a crossbow is that you can pull the string by various means and lock it, then aim it afterwards and fire it when you need it. A bow of decent draw weight as you say, requires strong arms to be fully pulled and that kinetic energy cannot be held for long. The reason that crossbows gained their notoriety and eventually replaced the bow on the battlefield was the fact that crossbow users require far less training than a bow to become useful. In a postapocalyptic scenario, I would be manufacturing steel crossbows sooner rather than later for defensive roles at least. Imagine the hitting power some car spring steel and steel wire combined with a car jack or pulling winch, could produce when spitting out steel bolts. But you can't beat a good traditional bow for speed and I am so getting one.

[The Dark Raven]

Wellllll... the thing about a crossbow is that you can pull the string by various means and lock it, then aim it afterwards and fire it when you need it. A bow of decent draw weight as you say, requires strong arms to be fully pulled and that kinetic energy cannot be held for long. The reason that crossbows gained their notoriety and eventually replaced the bow on the battlefield was the fact that crossbow users require far less training than a bow to become useful. In a postapocalyptic scenario, I would be manufacturing steel crossbows sooner rather than later for defensive roles at least. Imagine the hitting power some car spring steel and steel wire combined with a car jack or pulling winch, could produce when spitting out steel bolts. But you can't beat a good traditional bow for speed and I am so getting one.

Where I live, crossbows are illegal for able-bodied folks (i.e., not in a wheelchair), so I have not had any practical use of one.

[Captain Maltese]

Where I live, crossbows are illegal for able-bodied folks (i.e., not in a wheelchair), so I have not had any practical use of one.

"Crossbows are illegal." That is the scariest thing I heard this week. Although some of the laws in my country are as bad. Butterfly knives and switchblades are illegal. I could understand it if they had banned kitchen knives as that is the most popular killing weapon here. But in an apocalyptical scenario the last thing I will worry about is the government showing up.

[The Dark Raven]

"Crossbows are illegal." That is the scariest thing I heard this week. Although some of the laws in my country are as bad. Butterfly knives and switchblades are illegal. I could understand it if they had banned kitchen knives as that is the most popular killing weapon here. But in an apocalyptical scenario the last thing I will worry about is the government showing up.

They do it because crossbows are less available here, and the only option for bow season for those that are wheelchair bound.  (Keep in mind that the last time I looked at crossbow information was nearly 20 years ago, so it may have changed.)  For target shooting, it may be different, but I know it from the hunting season restrictions.  I have always preferred recurve, but have a compound bow, myself.

[Captain Maltese]

They do it because crossbows are less available here, and the only option for bow season for those that are wheelchair bound.  (Keep in mind that the last time I looked at crossbow information was nearly 20 years ago, so it may have changed.)  For target shooting, it may be different, but I know it from the hunting season restrictions.  I have always preferred recurve, but have a compound bow, myself.

I have to correct myself, after doing some fine reading in the law. Crossbows are legal in my country - but you do need a permit and you have to be 18. Since I already have weapon permits it should not be much fuss to get one for this. Compound bows require no permits at all, funnily enough, and certainly not the recurve bows. However none of these weapons are legal for hunting as far as I can find. But this may change, since these kinds of weapon have increasing interest in many countries these days. There are now proper contest programs here for bow, for instance.

[Captain Maltese]

Here's a nice little challenge. You and a handful of other survivors have established camp, maybe in a suitable house. On your radio you learn that a big vehicle with a number of wounded people in varying condition on board are heading your way and will arrive in about two hours. A bus or truck perhaps. Your intention is to help them; the reasons why are not relevant right now. It gives you and maybe two pairs of helping hands that much time to get a first aid station up and going. There are no ready medical supplies available beyond maybe a car first aid kit, and none of you will have proper medical qualifications. How will you prepare, knowing that some of the wounds could be from battle?

[AmberStarfire]

Here's a nice little challenge. You and a handful of other survivors have established camp, maybe in a suitable house. On your radio you learn that a big vehicle with a number of wounded people in varying condition on board are heading your way and will arrive in about two hours. A bus or truck perhaps. Your intention is to help them; the reasons why are not relevant right now. It gives you and maybe two pairs of helping hands that much time to get a first aid station up and going. There are no ready medical supplies available beyond maybe a car first aid kit, and none of you will have proper medical qualifications. How will you prepare, knowing that some of the wounds could be from battle?

(I don't have any medical training except for first aid when I was about 12, but I'll answer anyway).

I'd make sure there's a place to bring them that's clean, dry and warm, and preferably over flat ground (no stairs or long distances from where the vehicle is brought in). Make sure there are blankets, fresh water (boil it or otherwise sterilise it so it's as clean as possible), bowls/dishes, tools that might be needed, gloves if they can be found. If there's salt, extra salty water has antiseptic properties, as does alcohol (as pure as possible - it would help double for use as a painkiller). Look for bleach, natural oils (tea tree, lavender, garlic, oregano etc) in place of antiseptics  (would require water or carrier oil), sodium bicarbonate, medicines that may be in the house/can be salvaged, bandages (nothing is likely to be sterile but you have time to clean them, cut them and dry them out, which may be better than their prior state), cloths, bandaids/plasters (improvised?). A belt or two (to help stem bleeding), someone armed (in case one or more patients are a threat), and find out when the people get there if any of them are medically trained.   

[Oniya]

Two hours should be enough time to sterilize bandages.  You need to boil cloth for 15 minutes to sterilize it (Cotton or other natural fibers.)

If you have one, you can use a 4-quart pressure cooker as an autoclave to pre-sterilize bandage packets.  That might not be possible within the 2-hour time window of the exercise, but would be a good technique to have in one's survival repertoire.

[Captain Maltese]

Hm, this went well - I am learning from your replies. My personal education in this area are a couple of first aid lessons while in the army and in the boyscouts, and their scope didn't really extend beyond trying to stop people from bleeding to death before the medics could get there. By now that's almost 30 year ago.

My own reply was going to be something like this:
With two hours to get ready, I would be looking for a few kettles and a stove of some kind to put them on. One kettle would be dedicated to cooking medical tools, for 20 minutes before use. Beside that I would hunt down shirts and tees and other thin clothing, for striping down into bandage material. And some small flat rocks to put into the bandages for the pressure point. Then I'd hunt down the sewing kits for thread, needles and scissors and safety pins, before heading to the garage to scrounge for tools like tongs and snippers, sharp knives, hand metal saws, thin metal wires and strings, a rubber club or a hammer, and rubber gloves. From the rest of the house I'd want towels and blankets, and tea and sugar.

You ladies are improving on this grisly scene though. Amber; salt water and bleach are things I would not have thought about. Okay bleach is already in my emergency supplies but it's there to deal with toxic agents and biohazards, not to deal with wounds. Please tell more. Salt water I very dimly recall but the one guy I know whose untreated open wound had improved by it had been hanging on for his life to an overfilled life raft in the sea for two week... how much salt do you recommend per litre, I assume for washing a wound? Interesting thought there about the need for an armed guard at the station. I will keep that one in mind. Scavenged meds are something I am leary of, because it is often hard to know what they will do without a medical handbook ready. As long as Google works it's not the apocalypse yet, haha. But I'd probably put them aside at least, in case they could prove useful later on.

Oniya, a pressure cooker is an excellent idea. I know about autoclaves, but I am also familiar with the old army gas cookers who are barely bigger than a lunch box. What I had not thought about was sterilizing bandage material in one. That is so going into my emergency skill set. So is that link.

Anyone else?

[Oniya]

Scavenged meds are something I am leary of, because it is often hard to know what they will do without a medical handbook ready. As long as Google works it's not the apocalypse yet, haha. But I'd probably put them aside at least, in case they could prove useful later on.

There are text versions of the Physician's Desk Reference available (standard paperback size, smaller than your average Michener novel).  If you're able to have a 'base', such a thing wouldn't be too unwieldy to have on hand.  You may not have the more cutting edge meds in there because of printing delays, but you'd have the things you're most likely to find and want to use.

Eight drops of bleach per gallon of water makes a good solution to sterilize bandages - I believe it's on that site I linked as well.

[SmokingCamels]

On Crossbows:  Try pulling an 80 pound crossbow back and then knock a bolt, without making a fuss and blowing your cover.  The crossbow found widespread use because anyone could pick it up and use it.  It was just as effective against armor as not.  And the wounds were ridiculous.  Pope Innocent III outlawed them because of the wounds they were causing.

You needed to stand up and be able to use both arms to fire the English Longbow.  Which was, until the French started winning the 100 years war, the be all and end all of ranged weaponry.  However, the French soon figured out that a wounded, and even maimed man could sit 50 yards away from active combat and shoot the musket just fine.  He might even be able to reload it.  Whether or not he hit anything remained open to debate, but the function was still there.  The early firearm was also obnoxiously loud.  Which, given the "god fearing" nature of most commoners pressed into militia at the time, was nerve rattling.

The Crossbow's obvious downsides were the amount of time / strength required to reload it and it's relatively short range.  The faster you wanted to shoot it meant the less pull on the string, which meant less force from the bolt, which meant less impact when it struck a target.  Given that the crossbow was also a point and shoot weapon opposed to arc high and fire across the battlefield, gravity was not a crossbowman's friend, either.  There was no trajectory arc for the crossbow.  Given a modern choice?  Invest in a .22 rifle and a box of .22LR shells.  Then, take a 2 liter bottle.  Seal that bitch on the end of the barrel with some duct tape.  Congratulations.  You have a makeshift suppressor that might work for 1 or 2 shots.  Either way.  At least you're not drawing attention to yourself trying to reload a crossbow.

On Water & Fire Supplies:  Actually I made a point to mention that I keep a Zippo, lighter fluid, and a box of wooden matches in addition to my unopened pack of Bics.  Water is still easy enough to come by, depending on the disaster.  But the obvious solution is to check the faucets you come across.  Sooner or later, someone has a well.  Sooner or later someone paid their water bill before everything went to Hell, and since there was nobody around to actually press the button to have it shut off from the Utility Company's end... 

On Most Recent Scenario:  I'm vetoing whoever gave me those stupid orders.  Seriously.  That bus isn't coming anywhere near me.  I'm not wasting what extremely valuable, almost non-existent medical supplies I have at my disposal on a bus load of people targets.  There are other, better, more equipped places for them to go.  And if there isn't?  Then guess what?  The healthy and able bodied need to be kept separate from the others and not draw attachments that will ultimately, get them killed.  If there are no medical supplies to be had, and nowhere else nearby to divert that bus of people too?  They're on their own.

That said.  If there is somewhere else I can take them, or even more likely, somewhere else I can raid to get those medical supplies IN TIME, then I'll try.  I'm not cruel for no reason.  I am practical, yes.  Tactical.  Efficient.  Perhaps even callous.  But I am not needlessly cruel to sick and wounded people. 

In that type of situation, assuming I can't take what I can carry and be on my own way, what I'd do then, is turn the floor over to those most medically able.  I'd stay the hell out of their way.  And I would let the experts do what they're best at.  Which means, I'm on the "Away" team.  It'll be my job to go load up at the nearest gas station for coffee, salt, sugar, rolls of paper towels, cleaning supplies, and whatever first aid kit they've got available.  I'd also do the same for whatever garage / mechanic is nearby.  Gasoline and Oil are fuel sources.  Any place that has chemicals is also required by federal law to have an accessible first aid kit.  So, the gas stations and garages are quick ways to find alcohol, things that can be used for bandages, tools, fuel, and if you're lucky, food that hasn't spoiled.  These places are also a lot less obvious than say, a Walmart.  It's also quick and easy.  You're not going to waste time digging through overturned isles to find the one bottle of peroxide left. 

[Captain Maltese]

Water will always be an issue in emergency planning. You can't carry much, and depending on the disaster the official supply lines can be very vulnerable. One main pipe busted in an explosion, the power line to the main pump and cleaning stations cut, one toxic element spread into the local environment and that tap water gets mixed with sewage with no maintenance crew left to sort it out. IF the local authorities were able to deal with that sort of thing in the first place... Flint, Michigan anyone? Rain water cannot automatically be relied on either, depending on what disasters have happened. My own initial solution is a canteen and a set of military water cleansing pills, but that is very short term. Making a water filter with the help of a small tank and gravel is more long term. Distilling water with a kettle and a pipe-rigged lid is a desperate measure unless you have time and lots of heating energy or fuel.

My bug out bag firemaking options are wood matches, fire steel and a zippo. I also keep a few small firestarter pressed wood cubes in the bag to help get a fire going,  and I have a small alcohol stove with some fuel in the set too. I also have other stoves in the extended reserves, for butane/propane gas and white fuel. As an old camping stove collector I have a few to choose from.



Hm, gas stations are the first target for looting where I live. EVERYONE would think of them. They'd be the closest shop for everyone outside the town centers. But you might be right that there could be first aid kits there that not everyone would look for after emptying the chocolate and food counters, so I will keep that in mind.

Back when I was a kid, a gas station had a few chocolate bars and coffee and coke, and otherwise it was all car parts and tools. And porn mags. The attendants were half way car mechanics. Then they started to sell hot dogs, put in sweet self service bars, coffee that had not been standing heated for hours, and the car section got smaller and smaller and smaller... today you are lucky to get windshield wipers and the salesgirl is 17 and specializes in hip hop music, but they will have enough foodstuffs there for 30 different dinners. 

Heh, alcohol would be the hardest thing to scrounge up here in my country. All sale of booze heavier than beer is done from state shops and short of banks, those places are the best protected places of all. How do I put it? Jewelry shop are broken into on a monthly basis, diesel is stolen from trucks while the drivers sleep in them, but noone have ever successfully broken into one of those monopoly stores yet in spite of whisky going for 40 dollar per bottle for the CHEAP brands. Undrinkable fuel for stoves are however available everywhere. 

[The Dark Raven]

On Crossbows:  Try pulling an 80 pound crossbow back and then knock a bolt, without making a fuss and blowing your cover.  The crossbow found widespread use because anyone could pick it up and use it.  It was just as effective against armor as not.  And the wounds were ridiculous.  Pope Innocent III outlawed them because of the wounds they were causing.

You needed to stand up and be able to use both arms to fire the English Longbow.  Which was, until the French started winning the 100 years war, the be all and end all of ranged weaponry.  However, the French soon figured out that a wounded, and even maimed man could sit 50 yards away from active combat and shoot the musket just fine.  He might even be able to reload it.  Whether or not he hit anything remained open to debate, but the function was still there.  The early firearm was also obnoxiously loud.  Which, given the "god fearing" nature of most commoners pressed into militia at the time, was nerve rattling.

The Crossbow's obvious downsides were the amount of time / strength required to reload it and it's relatively short range.  The faster you wanted to shoot it meant the less pull on the string, which meant less force from the bolt, which meant less impact when it struck a target.  Given that the crossbow was also a point and shoot weapon opposed to arc high and fire across the battlefield, gravity was not a crossbowman's friend, either.  There was no trajectory arc for the crossbow.  Given a modern choice?  Invest in a .22 rifle and a box of .22LR shells.  Then, take a 2 liter bottle.  Seal that bitch on the end of the barrel with some duct tape.  Congratulations.  You have a makeshift suppressor that might work for 1 or 2 shots.  Either way.  At least you're not drawing attention to yourself trying to reload a crossbow.

On Water & Fire Supplies:  Actually I made a point to mention that I keep a Zippo, lighter fluid, and a box of wooden matches in addition to my unopened pack of Bics.  Water is still easy enough to come by, depending on the disaster.  But the obvious solution is to check the faucets you come across.  Sooner or later, someone has a well.  Sooner or later someone paid their water bill before everything went to Hell, and since there was nobody around to actually press the button to have it shut off from the Utility Company's end... 

On Most Recent Scenario:  I'm vetoing whoever gave me those stupid orders.  Seriously.  That bus isn't coming anywhere near me.  I'm not wasting what extremely valuable, almost non-existent medical supplies I have at my disposal on a bus load of people targets.  There are other, better, more equipped places for them to go.  And if there isn't?  Then guess what?  The healthy and able bodied need to be kept separate from the others and not draw attachments that will ultimately, get them killed.  If there are no medical supplies to be had, and nowhere else nearby to divert that bus of people too?  They're on their own.

That said.  If there is somewhere else I can take them, or even more likely, somewhere else I can raid to get those medical supplies IN TIME, then I'll try.  I'm not cruel for no reason.  I am practical, yes.  Tactical.  Efficient.  Perhaps even callous.  But I am not needlessly cruel to sick and wounded people. 

In that type of situation, assuming I can't take what I can carry and be on my own way, what I'd do then, is turn the floor over to those most medically able.  I'd stay the hell out of their way.  And I would let the experts do what they're best at.  Which means, I'm on the "Away" team.  It'll be my job to go load up at the nearest gas station for coffee, salt, sugar, rolls of paper towels, cleaning supplies, and whatever first aid kit they've got available.  I'd also do the same for whatever garage / mechanic is nearby.  Gasoline and Oil are fuel sources.  Any place that has chemicals is also required by federal law to have an accessible first aid kit.  So, the gas stations and garages are quick ways to find alcohol, things that can be used for bandages, tools, fuel, and if you're lucky, food that hasn't spoiled.  These places are also a lot less obvious than say, a Walmart.  It's also quick and easy.  You're not going to waste time digging through overturned isles to find the one bottle of peroxide left.

On water and fire:  For water, nothing is clad in steel.  You are lucky if infrastructure continues past the event.  Keep actual water (a few gallons for the first day, per person), and then purifying equipment (a tarp, some duct tape or rope) for after, and always travel by inland streams and lakes for the easiest purification.  Fire is best had by flint and steel.  It doesn't wear out and people have been using them for a very long time.  You flint wears out?  It's in the ground, where you can get more.

Regarding places to find supplies, look for the more obscure places in that scenario.  Walmart or a quickie mart are going to be the first places hit every time due to visibility.  Torn cloth, a good knot, and naturally antibiotic materials (honey, if you luck out on antibiotic cream, lye soap) are going to be your best friend. 

[Captain Maltese]

From the Lord Of The Rings:
Sam eased the pack on his shoulders, and went over anxiously in his mind all the things that he had stowed in it, wondering if he had forgotten anything: his chief treasure, his cooking gear; […] linen; various small belongings of his master's that Frodo had forgotten and Sam had stowed to bring them out in triumph when they were called for. He went through them all.

"Rope!" he muttered. "No rope! And only last night you said to yourself: 'Sam, what about a bit of rope? You'll want it, if you haven't got it.' Well, I'll want it. I can't get it now."

Rope. Is it part of your gear?

Personally I do reason like Sam in this matter; rope is vital. My primary plan in a disaster scenario is to get the hell out of Dodge before it burns down and I consider it essential. In my bug out bag alone I have two fresh ropes of 15 meters length each (almost 50 feet) with a breaking point of 650 kilo (about 1400 lbs) plus a handful of carabine hooks.  I also have a good pair of gloves specifically intended to help me deal with the rope. All this isn't specialist gear for climbers, just stuff from the hardware store. I still lack some of the things I want for this, like a small grappling hook and a few bolts and a small strong block and tackle set, but all things in time and as the budget allows.

There are a thousand uses for a bit of good rope, but the most important reasons I am adding it to the weight and volume of my pack is to help me scale moderate obstacles like cliffs, walls, smaller rivers, and hoist my gear after me. It will also come in very handy for rigging up my tarp into a tent or shelter. I am not an experienced climber but I am an experienced construction yard worker and I think I could put this type of equipment into good use.

[Captain Maltese]

Okay, new topic. You face the apocalypse with one and only one blade or tool. Which will it be? Axe, combat knife, multitool, butcher knife, sharpened e-tool, any other preference?

For my part it will be a combat knife of utter simplicity; full tang good grip and not too finicky steel quality because sharpening will have to happen eventually. And it looks nasty too, which has a bonus in a potential fight because I'll rather have an enemy back off than receive a few cuts while he tries to win - and also, because I would rather win than lose and most multitools are near useless in a fight.

[Far eyes]

A chain saw i have strapped to my wrist, and a lot of LSD...   seems like a good short term plan.

[AmberStarfire]

A lightsaber.  ;D

[Aiden]

Small crowbar

Good for bashing, building and demo.

[Oniya]

Swiss Army Knife - not the overly-huge unwieldy ones, but the one I can comfortably wrap my hand around.  In addition to all of the standard uses (including 'making more tools'), you can also drop it in a sock and make a bludgeoning weapon.

[Cycle]

A felling ax.  It'll help me make shelters and other weapons (e.g., spears), as well as break into places.

[SmokingCamels]

Once again more cringing on this.  But it has more to do with the scenario.  It assumes I am a moron and do not understand the 7 Ps.  What are the 7 Ps?  Proper. Prior. Planning. Prevents. Piss. Poor. Performance.  Catching me in the newest type of situation is... for lack of better terms, more or less impossible.

But for the sake of playing along.

The Axe isn't a bad choice, but this early on, a hatchet is just a bit better.  It's lighter and faster.  At this stage you're not doing anything where you need to focus on chopping trees down or trying to chop through an urban fire door.  The Gerber tool is also an obvious choice.  How useful a lot of those things on there are... like, the can opener and the wire snips.  Those things are insanely useful.  But they're only useful when you actually need that particular item on the spot.  Any other time, they're useless.  And the tiny tiny blade?  In a fight?  Really?  What are you going to do?  Scratch me on the arm once when I lead with it just to draw out that feeble attack and then -assuming I am unarmed- grab that knife arm with my follow up?  I'm the kinda guy that for giggles, would scratch you back with that dinky knife and be all, "See!  See!  I told you!  Now look at you.  You're all scratched up.  How do you like it?  Gonna make some stupid scars you'll have to explain and that's it."

The Crowbar is the best choice mentioned so far.

I concur with it.

But I would also be completely okay with one of those heavy duty metal flashlights like the police used to carry.  The kind that took 4 D batteries and could survive being dropped off the Empire State Building?  Yeah.  :D

And for the sake of humor?  I'll take my bowl and a lighter.  It's still packed so I'm good.  :P

[Captain Maltese]

First of all I want to express my sympathy to the more than 90.000 Canadians who are facing their personal apocalypse and have been evacuated in the Fort Murray area, due to the raging fires which so far have claimed 1600 homes - the numbers can be expected to rise to even the double. The fire services do NOT have control and some people have been evacuated several times as the initial evacuation areas have been eaten up by the expanding fire zones. For us living in safety this event should be a lesson that our safety is not granted just because war or earthquakes are not currently an issue.

The next challenge then - I loved all your previous answers btw - is packing food for a two week emergency absence with no guarantees of resupplying anything but water before arrival. To be carried in your backpack, together with clothes and other necessities, which you will have to carry on your back while heading to safety. What do you bring? You have just time enough to grab supplies from your own shelves, so no shopping. Chief issues should be weight and volume.... I think. Prove me wrong.

[NiceTexasGuy]

I avoid thinking in terms of labels like survivalist or prepper because of the negative connotations fostered by the popular media & etc on people who are intelligent enough to be prepared for emergencies.  Modern society (in the U.S. at least) seems to have the view that "if it's never happened before, it can't happen" - while forgetting the hundreds of times it has happened before.  Civil unrest, severe weather, forest fires, even losing one's job.  Of course Big Brother and Dancing with the Stars are important, but during the commercials, put a little thought into what you'll do if the power goes off.

It is (probably) impossible to plan for every possible contingency - the idea is to be generally prepared with things you're likely to need in any disaster, develop a mindset of survival, add survival skills to your toolbox, then think about those things most likely to happen and specific preparations you can make to deal with them.

If I'm going to hunker down in place, it's good to know I have rifle, shotgun, pistol, and billions of rounds for each, along with a thousand gallons of water, chainsaw with spare fuel, etc etc etc.  If I need to travel, my vehicle will carry a lot of this.  If I need to walk out, something's getting left behind.  Yet, every self confessed expert will pick apart anything anyone has done in order to prepare, even though perfect preparation is not possible.

What can the average person do to enhance his or her chance of survival -- or perhaps not be entirely miserable while waiting for the lights to come back on or the 18-wheelers to deliver food to the local grocery store?

Water.  In gallon jugs.  Expiration dates on water might seem silly, but even if the water is relatively safe to drink, the plastic is not made to last a long time. It will break down.  Trust me on this.

A means to purify water.  Iodine tablets, household bleach, filters.  Read up on how to do it before the internet goes down.

Food.  You can spend hundreds on prepackaged survival food, but the idea here is the average person like you or me living paycheck to paycheck.  Every trip to the grocery store, buy a couple of extra items to store away for emergency.  Canned veggies - beans are the best, but variety is good for the soul.  Comfort food is good for the soul, too.  Potato chips, Reeces pieces.  Don't forget a manual can opener - preferably not one made in China (if you can find it.)  Rotate your stock occasionally, or else five years from now when forced to eat that can of beans, you won't have to wonder if it's safe because it expired three years earlier.

Toilet paper, and a place for that stuff to go if your water supply is interrupted.  Plastic bag in a bucket, maybe?

Light.  Candles, lighters, flashlights, batteries.  Try to remember where they are so you can find them in the dark with just your cell phone for light.

Kids?  Something to keep them entertained when their tablets are out of juice or the internet is down.  Books.  Coloring books.  Board games (good for adults, too.)

Now, at this point I could go on and on, and make it look like so many other sites that try to prepare you for every eventuality on your ten thousand dollar survival budget.  But I won't.  The idea is not to overwhelm, but to get started.  Next trip to the grocery store, what are you going to get that you wouldn't have gotten otherwise, and where are you going to put it when you get home?

[Lapine]

"Stuff" is good but skills are essential.  I think one of the best things you can do to prepare is to learn how to do things the "old fashioned" way.  Learn to garden and butcher an animal; learn how to can your own food; learn how to find and purify water; learn basic medicine; learn herbal lore; basically re-learn all the things our ancestors did to survive.  If you have older relatives or friends with these skills, hit them up and have them teach you; take a class, read books; check the internet while you still have it.  Knowledge is something that can't be taken away or lost and if it's paired with good equipment, you'll have the best chance.

[Captain Maltese]

Here's a very basic tool that I think many are familiar with: the P-38 can opener.



It weighs nothing, costs practically nothing, takes no room and is immensely useful. While it was created to be a tool for opening military canned rations you can use it as a makeshift screwdriver, cutting edge, awl, what have you. And it will fit on your key ring or dog tag chain. And for those saying that they have a very nice can opener on their folding knife already I have one question: Have you actually tried to open a can with it?



If you don't have an army surplus story nearby, don't worry - budget stores with decent sports gear and camping gear selections often offer some version of these for a couple of dollars, and then you probably get two of them.

[Oniya]

And for those saying that they have a very nice can opener on their folding knife already I have one question: Have you actually tried to open a can with it?

Yes.  Many times when the rotary one decides it's going to be cantankerous and 'skip' on me.  (Pardon the pun - it was that or 'cranky'.)

[WindVoyager]

Been a prepper for a good number of years. Back home we lived on a flood pain bu the house set up on a hill so we were pretty safe when the area around flooded. Now I live in Louisiana and with all the flooding I've been preparing for that and with the economy on the collapse and the stock market crash coming next month, I've been prepping big time.

I have a seed vault, stock piling non perishables, stocking up on gas for the generator and truck, stock piled food for the cats and chickens. Will eat the old hens I have to since they don't lay any more and just eat and crap.

The one thing that bugs the crap out of me is all these "prepper" vids on youtube are people pushing very expensive gear stating you have to have it or hinting you have to have it.

[Captain Maltese]

Yeah, it's amazing how many of those equipment touting blogs and videos have more than a whiff of marketing about them. But then, that's how magazines have earned money on 'reviews' since the dawn of paper. My own heap of gear is getting on the heavy side but there's hardly more than an item or two who cost me serious money. In fact I have found it to be a motivation in itself, to scrounge for inexpensive items to fill the slots. Sort of survival training in itself. Which is why my bugout bag 'tent' is a three dollar tarp and a ball of thin rope.

Windvoyager, I assume the seeds are for the hens?

Has the floodings reached your area yet?

[Oniya]

'Seed vault' is more likely crop seeds, for the agriculturally inclined prepper.

[WindVoyager]

I live in the country and have a lot of land and the knowledge to grow a lot of things.  >:)

Basically a seed vault is heritage plants, usually veggies. In my case its all veggies I'l eat and some I can trade.

Something like a seed vault won't be much use to someone who lives in a more urban environment.

Has the floodings reached your area yet?

Its all largely to the west and south of us. Its pretty high and dry here with the exception of a ditch in the back pasture that collapsed when it over flowed

Yeah, it's amazing how many of those equipment touting blogs and videos have more than a whiff of marketing about them. But then, that's how magazines have earned money on 'reviews' since the dawn of paper. My own heap of gear is getting on the heavy side but there's hardly more than an item or two who cost me serious money. In fact I have found it to be a motivation in itself, to scrounge for inexpensive items to fill the slots. Sort of survival training in itself. Which is why my bugout bag 'tent' is a three dollar tarp and a ball of thin rope.

My tent is a two person Coleman I found out in the woods a few years back. Teens used to go out there and party and get into all manner of trouble and leave behind a LOT of stuff. Almost everything I own is on the cheap side. I've never seen the need to sink 100+ just into one thing.

I even have a small folding stainless steel stove that I spent 10$

[Captain Maltese]

Nice! Coleman is a decent brand. I know them chiefly through their camping stoves and their brand fuel.

That little stainless stove - is it this one?

[Oniya]

Even people in urban environments can make use of seeds.  Certain veggies that you get in the store can be propagated at home.  I've successfully sprouted tomatoes from that inevitable 'last slice' that didn't fit on someone's sandwich.  (I have a brown thumb, though, so I don't give it high odds of surviving the summer.)  Potatoes can be cut up and used as seed-stock (They will also sprout in your cabinet if you forget about them).  Carrots (especially if you can get them with a decent amount of greens still on them) can be re-rooted.  I've heard that bell peppers can be grown from grocery stock, but I haven't had much luck there.

[WindVoyager]

Its pretty close to one of these, multi fuel sources.

https://www.amazon.com/Forfar-Portable-Stainless-Lightweight-Backpacking/dp/B015GWTWRI/ref=sr_1_123?s=outdoor-recreation&ie=UTF8&qid=1471723375&sr=1-123-spons&psc=1&smid=APYYD5OK9ZDQ

Nice! Coleman is a decent brand. I know them chiefly through their camping stoves and their brand fuel.

I'd find all manner of free stuff they left behind. Tarps, cooking stuff, coolers. Even find fishing gear.

Even people in urban environments can make use of seeds.  Certain veggies that you get in the store can be propagated at home.  I've successfully sprouted tomatoes from that inevitable 'last slice' that didn't fit on someone's sandwich.  (I have a brown thumb, though, so I don't give it high odds of surviving the summer.)  Potatoes can be cut up and used as seed-stock (They will also sprout in your cabinet if you forget about them).  Carrots (especially if you can get them with a decent amount of greens still on them) can be re-rooted.  I've heard that bell peppers can be grown from grocery stock, but I haven't had much luck there.

I've tried growing bell peppers from store stock but they usually don't germinate. I use seeds for carrots, like Purple Dragon and other heritage ones. 'tatos grow damn near any where. But somethings need a lot of room like squash

[Captain Maltese]

Ah, I see. I have a couple of rather smaller collapsible burners meant for a spirit burner or fuel pellets in the middle. That one looks like it is meant for keeping in the car boot perhaps?

[Oniya]

But somethings need a lot of room like squash

Squash is one of those plants I can't kill.  The other one being mint.  ;D  One of our neighbors left a Halloween pumpkin to rot in front of their house in one of those 'tree plots', and the vine got to at least three feet before someone took it out. 

I suspect red bells might work better than green bells (being the ripened version of the seed capsule)

[WindVoyager]

Ah, I see. I have a couple of rather smaller collapsible burners meant for a spirit burner or fuel pellets in the middle. That one looks like it is meant for keeping in the car boot perhaps?

Most come with a little metal bowl that fits inside the stove so it can burn alcohol and fuel pellets as well as burn pretty much anything burnable-twigs, leaves, dry grass, wood, new paper.

I thought about getting a Pocket Rocket but the fuel canister never lasts long and its heavy.

[SmokingCamels]

I've recently put together a kit for my car.

I keep a change of clothes sealed off in a garbage bag, a roll of quarters, a flashlight with extra batteries, a gallon of gas (which thankfully doesn't leak gas odors all over the place), a gallon of water (because it's smaller than a pack of bottles of water), two quarts of oil (Castrol GTX for high mileage... 10w40 is fine), a socket set, power steering & break fluid, duct tape (because as every redneck knows, duct tape and WD30 can fix anything) and of course my jumper cables.  Naturally I have a spare.  Not a donut, an actual tire.  What's the point of a donut when you need to change your tire anyway?

[Captain Maltese]

I recently had a flat tire myself and got an embarrassing reminder of my own car preparedness. - The cup set for unscrewing the bolts was in my garage. - The jack was in my garage too. - My spare tire, although not one of those accursed donuts, was almost empty of air. Fortunately the flat happened only a hundred yards away from home so I didn't have to stand there like an idiot calling in for the road emergency service truck. I learned though, and now all the necessary gear is well tucked away into the car.

The OTHER gear has been in place for a while though. Basic tool kit, emergency vest, emergency triangle marker, towing rope, big first aid kit, e-tool type folding steel shovel, and a kit set with: coins, matches, pencil, paper, sewing kit, micro flashlight, folding knife, some sugary sweets. And I keep a blanket in the car during the period when the temperature goes below zero.

But I don't have any emergency supply of gas, water or oil in the car, nor duct tape. I see the wisdom in this should there be an engine system breakdown on the road and will get a couple of each to stow away inside - thanks for the tip. And I need to find a place for an extra set of charging cables too. As the man said... Winter IS coming.

[WindVoyager]

I'm surprised no one has thought of this when it comes to raising small animals as a food source. Rabbit and chickens are the most common. Why not raise  guinea pigs?

They do have their cons and pros just like rabbits.

Pros

-young are born fully formed and can eat solid food and grow fast
-They are very hardy and don't get sick easily
-they breed easily
-unlike rabbits they do have some fat content
- they can eat lawn clippings and the like
-they taste good

cons

-they make a lot of noise
-they have a gestation period of 59 – 72 days compared to a rabbits 31
-they have fewer young

[TheGlyphstone]

Maybe it's the 'cute/pet' factor? Most people don't have any problem seeing things like rabbits as both food and pets, since they were the former long before the latter, but if you suggested eating guinea pigs, I bet the average person would look at you like you were selling kitten steaks.

[RedRose]

I used to have pet guinea pigs :)
In some South American countries people do eat them.

[Captain Maltese]

It is an interesting line of thought. How much meat is there on a guinea pig though? And is the pelt any good?

Here in Norway, non-farmers who have animals or poultry for meat are fairly rare. I think I can recall that back when I was a kid there were some houses that had rabbits in cages in the garden, but I haven't seen that in a long time now. I know someone who has chickens though, mainly for the eggs.

Back during World War 2 and before however, there were many even in urban areas who had a pig in a garden shed; they were fed dinner leftovers and swede and apples and potatoes etc. Usually got slaughtered for christmas.  Another animal that many in the rural areas had was sheep, and goats.

[Oniya]

I'd say that a rabbit pelt is going to be more useful than a guinea pig's. 

[Captain Maltese]

During WW2, there was a lot of home breeding of rabbits in German held territories; it was encouraged by the regime as a food supply. And rabbit fur was also used to line military winter coats, especially on the eastern front and in the arctic areas. I don't know how much they were used for civilian winter clothing; I could be wrong but I think rabbit fur insulates well but I am not sure how well the skin compares to other animals.

But since we are talking about animals at home we should not forget about fish. Carp in particular is well suited for small shallow artificial ponds; I think the Chinese have a lot of experience with this.

[WindVoyager]

Not much meat on a GP and the pelt isn't useful.

Carp and Tilapia  do amazingly well in ponds.

I have a pair of pigs and they eat all the left overs, law clippings and the like. Living trash disposal. Going to get goats before too much longer.

[SmokingCamels]

I like the idea that some people are into raising animals like that.  I won't lie, I'll eat about any meat.  But if I am raising animals specifically for a food source that don't require a lot of extra work, I would stick with caged rabbits (so other animals can't get them) and deer.  That said, I don't need to raise animals for a food source.  I'm fully capable and equipped of hunting one myself.  :)

[Captain Maltese]

Agreed with the hunting.

Still, I do remember the Chernobyl accident. I was planning on a student visit to Russia at the time - it got cancelled, to put it that way. But more importantly we got some of that radiation downfall even here in Norway. Hunting was cancelled. Sheep and reindeer, which we have a lot of in some areas here, had to be given meds and special food. I even had to throw away fish I had caught and frozen down. Since we are talking about doomsday scenarios the longer term food plan will probably benefit from being diversified.

[Captain Maltese]

Let's try a more mundane survival scenario.

It's your summer vacation, and you have decided to go visit an old derelict farm your family once owned. By car. You are not part of a tightly knit family or group of friends, so no one knows your exact plans. It doesn't look too complicated though; you can apparently drive the whole way and there's an inn conveniently near the farm.

So you set out in the early morning, and the arrow goes straight into the rural areas and from there into forested and mountained wilderness. Somewhere around lunch you find a gas station and buy a coffee and a sandwich and juice up your tank, and drive on.

By evening you are in trouble. The roads are all gravel and you haven't seen a single car since the gas station, the names on the signs might as well be written in Orcish and it's getting dark when suddenly a deer jumps into the road. You swerve to avoid it, hit the ditch at 40mph, the car front gets intimate with a tree and the lights go out. All of them.

When you wake up eating airbag it's just the last glimmer of daylight left. There's no battery left in the car, your GPS is dead, your cell phone has no contact with any network. There's a map but you don't know where you are on it. On the bright side you aren't bleeding, nothing on you is broken and the car is not on fire.

It could be a week before anyone starts questioning openly where you are. What do you do from here?

[TheGlyphstone]

Wait until morning, then follow the road back to the gas station. I'm pretty sure even my flabby ass can walk that far without dying of starvation or dehydration.

[Captain Maltese]

Wait until morning, then follow the road back to the gas station. I'm pretty sure even my flabby ass can walk that far without dying of starvation or dehydration.

And if you can't tell what is the right road back to the gas station?

[Oniya]

And if you can't tell what is the right road back to the gas station?

'Down' is likely to lead towards water/civilization.  Since we're talking rural, you probably have clear enough skies to catch sight of the Dipper and orient yourself to 'North' at a bare minimum.  Scour the wreckage for anything edible (there's usually a bag of chips or jerky, knowing my car) and maybe a decent branch from the tree for a walking stick.

[SmokingCamels]

*scratches head*  So in this scenario I have no survival skills and only moderately understands modern technology?  I immediately close the game down, eject it from my system (or go into my control panel, open up programs and files and remove it) and return it.  When asked why I am returning that game, I get quite verbose about how stupid it was and that 3 minutes into it I had completely lost interest.

Oh... you mean for real?

I can't apply that situation to any sort of logic as to what I would do since that scenario has 0% chance of ever happening.  There are too many things wrong with the setup that couldn't possibly happen to me.  To start with, I -CAN- read a map.  I wouldn't go out to a derelict farmhouse in the middle of nowhere for no reason, and if I had been there as a kid, I would also know the area well enough to know what was in which direction and about how far it was.  I'm not gonna end up in a ditch for swerving to miss a deer either, because my vehicle is a truck, I know the odds of the deer's survival are non-existent while mine are ridiculously high.  :P

Seriously.  Not to be a tool, I would normally give you a straight answer.  But I can't on this one.  You've made it too impossible for me to put myself in that situation.  :/

[Captain Maltese]

Well, I thought the setting was pretty realistic but I may have been thinking too local for it to have any meaning. I live in a rural area; there's a few thousand people around here and lots of gravel roads once you get off the main roads. Back in the day I worked in Sweden for a while and about once per month I drove to visit my parents. That was a five hour drive, of which maybe four go through desolate mountains or dense forests, and once you drive off the main road for some reason they don't bother much with any kind of road signs. On the Swedish side even the main roads were gravel back then and I am not going into the mid winter issues. I have been well and truly lost a few times and I have also been standing in the naked mountains outside my car, removing the engine top with about three basic hand tools so I could yank out a broken valve pin and continue the drive on two cylinders the rest of the trip. I didn't see one other house or car until I was nearly home. I grant you, neither GPS or cell phones had been invented yet but there isn't any phone network up there anyway.

That said, I encourage you guys to present a scenario that makes sense to you.

[SmokingCamels]

Ahh.  Okay.  Upon further examination I now understand why there are differences!  See.  It was good for me to say that I couldn't answer you because that is a situation I cannot relate too.  :D

You're talking Sweden.  I am talking America.  Even Alaska.  You say nothing for miles and literally mean miles.  When I say nothing for miles, I mean 10 or 20.  You're talking about a little vehicle with no engine power.  I am talking...

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide

You have 3 cylinders.  I have 8.  You're talking being mixed up on dirt roads with no road signs that go on and on and meet other dirt roads with no road signs.  I'm talking... go straight ahead until that road meets a road with a road sign.  Follow it until you meet another road with a road sign.  You will eventually find one you know or somebody else with a vehicle.  Not to mention somebody with electricity and a phone.  That makes more sense.

[Oniya]

It's not terribly unrealistic - I mean, the rural roads in Ohio were paved, but the possibility of a deer strike in an area where the road signs are little more than route numbers (that are difficult, if not impossible to find on a paper map) isn't really out of the question.  Think of something approximately the dimensions of a standard street sign, with nothing on it but a cryptic 3-4 digit number.  Replace 'mountains' with forests (sometimes with isolated steep grades), and I have driven through that terrain.  I don't know if a GPS or a cell-phone would have had reception, because at the time, I owned neither.

With luck, you might see an Amish buggy or combine tractor chugging along on the straighter roads.

[SmokingCamels]

It's not terribly unrealistic - I mean, the rural roads in Ohio were paved, but the possibility of a deer strike in an area where the road signs are little more than route numbers (that are difficult, if not impossible to find on a paper map) isn't really out of the question.  Think of something approximately the dimensions of a standard street sign, with nothing on it but a cryptic 3-4 digit number.  Replace 'mountains' with forests (sometimes with isolated steep grades), and I have driven through that terrain.  I don't know if a GPS or a cell-phone would have had reception, because at the time, I owned neither.

With luck, you might see an Amish buggy or combine tractor chugging along on the straighter roads.

My pops runs 6 counties in PA in a utility truck for the state.  He's on the border of PA and NY.  It's a mix up, but once you're used to it, it's no problem at all.  The deer isn't out of the question at all.  I'd just hit it.  My truck will survive.  The deer won't.  But, to be fair, I drive an old beat up 96 Ford F-150 that's four wheel drive and has a gas chugging v8 in it instead of say, a plastic and fiberglass Nissan Altima or Kia Optima, so I get it.  A far more likely and plausible scenario for me would be running out of gas out in the boondocks at 11:00 at night after all the local shops and stations in the 1 horse towns have already closed down at 9 or 10. 

BUT, because I know that, I'd have either a spare gas can in the back, or I'd have filled up before the places closed.  If you're going to try and tell me my gas gauge on the truck doesn't work (which is also acceptably inconvenient) then I'd also tell you that I always fill up at the 200 mile mark, and when I get to 120 I start paying attention, and by 150, I am looking for a place to fill up.  This way I am never on an empty tank anywhere and when I choose to fill up I still have between a 3rd and 1/4 tank.  :D

So, in the event it's dark, and I am in the boondocks of Ohio where I have never been before, out of gas, and on the side of the road somewhere...  I'm putting on the hazard lights, pulling the key from the ignition, sliding over to the passenger's seat, and using my jacket as a pillow.  Gonna try and get some sleep.  Either a passerby will see me, a state trooper will, or somebody will stop.  If that doesn't work, by morning it's light and I can see where I am going and what's up.  If I have to foot it, I will.  Assuming I do, I am picking one direction... the one towards the closest town / gas station, and I'm going along it until I get to an intersection that has road signs.  A traffic light or four way stop sign is what I am looking for.  From there, I sit tight and wait.  I will likely press the button on a sign for the state troopers if necessary / I spot them first.  But if I come to an intersection with a light, I'm pretty sure my phone will have a signal.  At that point I send my general SOS text message to the people who are expecting me at my destination.  If they aren't there or there is no answer, again the State Police / Game Warden.  One of them will be by sooner or later if enough distress calls are made.

Barring all of that, somebody has got to come upon that intersection soon enough... And that's all assuming I am still not close enough to a gas station.  Sure, it's an inconvenient adventure that will irritate me to irrational vulgarities spewing from my mouth in complete sentences, but it isn't an unmanageable situation by any means. 

[Thorne]

Hrrrm. Well now. The problem with hitting a deer at speed, even in a fairly heavy vehicle isn't the deer totaling the car or doing damage; it's the chance the animal will bounce over the hood and come through the windshield, or knock something loose that you can't see. I've hit a deer, and we got lucky; we had to take the car in for repairs because of things knocked loose, but no injuries, and we came out of it still owning the car (a Prius, for the curious). Twice, actually... deer are a hazard, and that's just the little white-tails. Might not be as bad in Grendel (my truck), but personally, I would rather not test it.
Trees are very bad for any vehicle, realistically; and gravel might as well be greased glass for all the traction you get if you have to maneuver suddenly at speed. If you're not used to driving on gravel, I expect it would be that much worse.

Anyway. Scenario. I found it believable enough; we live out in the boonies, and if you don't know the area, even signed out the roads are a jumble of asphalt spaghetti. While I don't carry a compass (I need to amend that; a good compass would at least give me a head start on an overcast evening), I do carry maps and I usually have a flashlight and or a bundle of glow sticks. GPS isn't 100% even in the cities, and a map is a good backup. Stay on the road, and even if I don't end up walking all the way back, there's a good chance I can flag someone down.

Scary, but manageable; just.. y'know, don't panic.

[SmokingCamels]

Hrrrm. Well now. The problem with hitting a deer at speed, even in a fairly heavy vehicle isn't the deer totaling the car or doing damage; it's the chance the animal will bounce over the hood and come through the windshield, or knock something loose that you can't see. I've hit a deer, and we got lucky; we had to take the car in for repairs because of things knocked loose, but no injuries, and we came out of it still owning the car (a Prius, for the curious). Twice, actually... deer are a hazard, and that's just the little white-tails. Might not be as bad in Grendel (my truck), but personally, I would rather not test it.
Trees are very bad for any vehicle, realistically; and gravel might as well be greased glass for all the traction you get if you have to maneuver suddenly at speed. If you're not used to driving on gravel, I expect it would be that much worse.

Anyway. Scenario. I found it believable enough; we live out in the boonies, and if you don't know the area, even signed out the roads are a jumble of asphalt spaghetti. While I don't carry a compass (I need to amend that; a good compass would at least give me a head start on an overcast evening), I do carry maps and I usually have a flashlight and or a bundle of glow sticks. GPS isn't 100% even in the cities, and a map is a good backup. Stay on the road, and even if I don't end up walking all the way back, there's a good chance I can flag someone down.

Scary, but manageable; just.. y'know, don't panic.

Right.  Don't panic. 

The majority of the calls my dad gets during October - December are for deer that have been hit.  You know how many of them have been reports of the deer coming up, over, through the windshield and seriously injuring people on the other side?  4 or 5.  During the first week of buck season he can get upwards of 35 calls a day.  Some of the reasons I refuse to drive a piece of junk like a Prius (no offense, especially if yours is powder blue) is that my Ford F-150 is infinitely better at handling bad roads / terrain, has a big, powerful engine, is cheap and easy to fix if something goes wrong, and far more useful when you do live out in the boon docks or require four wheel drive because of the weather.

Again... I pay for it in the cost of gas, plus it's old and beat up.  It's pretty ugly, all things considered, and will never win a beauty contest.  But to me, beauty contests are for girls.  :D

Besides.  Ford = First On Race Day  :D

[Thorne]

Right.  Don't panic. 

The majority of the calls my dad gets during October - December are for deer that have been hit.  You know how many of them have been reports of the deer coming up, over, through the windshield and seriously injuring people on the other side?  4 or 5.  During the first week of buck season he can get upwards of 35 calls a day.  Some of the reasons I refuse to drive a piece of junk like a Prius (no offense, especially if yours is powder blue) is that my Ford F-150 is infinitely better at handling bad roads / terrain, has a big, powerful engine, is cheap and easy to fix if something goes wrong, and far more useful when you do live out in the boon docks or require four wheel drive because of the weather.

Again... I pay for it in the cost of gas, plus it's old and beat up.  It's pretty ugly, all things considered, and will never win a beauty contest.  But to me, beauty contests are for girls.  :D

Besides.  Ford = First On Race Day  :D

Right...
I don't malign your choice of vehicle, I would appreciate it if you would keep your judgments on mine to yourself; especially given that you already come off as a judgmental ass.

[Captain Maltese]

Okay let's tweak the setting and try one more time. Lonely forest road, it is mid winter, well below freezing point and 30 miles from the nearest house. It's snowing hard and daylight is fairly brief. Your car has an accident that leaves it inert. It is realistic that it could be several days before another car passes by and it might well be the snow plow. Again you have no electronics to lean on for navigation or communication. How would you deal?

[SmokingCamels]

I am prepared for the winter, yes?  And in this example, my vehicle is my truck?

The vehicle is less important.  But, if it is my truck, there's a chance I could figure out what is wrong with it and fix it.  If it's a vehicle I don't know, then there is a good chance I can't fix it even if I had a clue what is wrong with it.  I'd check all the obvious stuff first.  My lights.  Do they come on even dimly?  At least the truck has power and it's not a dead battery.  Next obvious thing would be to try and start it.  Do I get a click-click-click sound?  If so, it's a strong chance (especially with the weather) that it's an alternator problem.  If the vehicle just died but didn't lock up, it's a power / electronic problem, not the engine seizing up.  If the truck seemed to lack any speed and just kept revving and not shifting, then it's definitely a tranny problem.  Am I leaking oil?  Like I said, my first step is to identify the problem with the vehicle.  Because if I can identify it, there's a decent chance I can fix it.  If not, I at least have a piece of mind... and my Ford becomes Found On Road Dead.  :{

So okay.  Now the assumption is that I can't get the vehicle to work, it's about to snow like Hell, and it's about to be freezing in a colder than necessary way.  I'm unpacking some of my winter gear, keeping the heater on as long as I can, bundling up, and staying within the shelter of the cab.  No matter how cold it gets, it won't get colder than it is outside the truck, and it also won't get wet.  Inside I stay dry and as warm as possible.  I'm going to sit the night out because daylight is better than darkness and sunlight will at least bring the temperatures back up from -30 to say.. -20 or even -10, which, thankfully, while still cold as F*ck, isn't as bad.  Assuming that I'm still 30 miles away from the nearest place, that's all well good, and epic fun.  30 miles on foot is ridiculously annoying, but it also isn't out of the question.  It's been done before (even by me).  I'mma keep as bundled up as possible, and backtrack the way I came, using the road as my terrain as much as possible.  Even under a foot of snow it's pretty identifiable and it isn't going to make me question what I am stepping on nearly as badly as not being on the road.  In other words, I can tell the difference between the relatively level ground of a road and the uneveness of something not a road.  30 miles, here I come.  Yay.  :P

[Captain Maltese]

It's not an uncommon scenario around here; we are definitely a cabin owning nation here and many of those cabins are out in the wilderness - many are not even near the road, especially the older ones. There's a lot of snowmobiles around for freighting in supplies and those who don't like skiing for hours just to get there. The snowmobiles aren't legal everywhere though. Long story short, the rescuing organizations have their work cut out for them summer as winter. Especially when temperature REALLY drops.

However. In that car, stranded on the outskirts of civilization, I would not be happy about leaving the car unless I knew exactly how far I had to walk, what the odds were of seeing a car or house were, how easy the roads would be to navigate in the dark and how deep the snow was. You don't get far in the wrong kind of snow even if it is only a foot deep. And a car is a big rectangular metal item, frequently in a color different from its surroundings. That eye in the sky sees a car much easier than a walking human.

Assuming then, that I would be preparing to spend the night in the car. First I'd close off the car's air flow to retain what heat there was. I would try not to keep the heater on; it eats battery capacity fairly fast and I would want the power to be there if I heard a vehicle and could signal with my car lights. Also, as long as you have power, you also have multiple means to make fire. And then there is the car radio! Only turn it on at the time of newscasts though. It sure would be nice to know if a search is underway! But keep it off to save on power otherwise, and keep the cabin light off as well.

Keep in mind that a car is essentially a big lump of metal and it draws heat away; anyone who has slept in a car for a whole night knows what a fun chilly experience that is. It is coldest near the bottom of the cabin. Keep your legs up; it also helps with the blood circulation. Also take off your shoes and give them a little extra padding; extra socks if you have, but even some paper tissues will make a difference.

If you have water, drink it sparingly. At some point you will either have to leave the car and unzip or even pull down your pants, which will cost you heat and energy, or you will have to piss inside the car. After a full 24 hours of waiting that's not a pleasant choice any more.

Help could come any moment; be ready to leave the car as soon as you hear or see anything.

If you have a suitable tool for cutting branches, the best way to be seen by a chopper is to make a fire. Fresh pine branches do not love to burn but when they do, they make a thick white smoke. A quarter of oil gives a lot of incentive for burning. Gas/fuel is also good but burns so quick that you should put it on something that burns easily. Like one of the car seats; that foam isn't supposed to be easily burning but it isn't fire repellant either. Oil makes black smoke. Keep in mind that what is BEST seen is actual fire, be it by eye or by heat seeking cameras. Smoke also helps, especially to crews who are searching on ground level and might not be able to see you or your fire directly. Finally there is also the possibility of making a big L on the ground, which indicates Landing Zone. Much simpler than trying to write SOS by branches.

Speaking of SOS. One more way of calling for help is to have a metal tool ready for hammering onto a firm metal part of the car. Bip bip bip beep beep beep bip bip bip is technically no longer the official emergency sign but practically everyone still recognizes it. And sound still carries a long way in the wilderness.

[SmokingCamels]

So you destroyed your vehicle to get a rescue.  I toughed the weather to rescue my vehicle.  :P 

#Priorities

[Oniya]

I can replace a vehicle.  If I die, my vehicle can't replace me.

[Captain Maltese]

Okay. New and minimalistic scenario. You will have to hide in a cave for the next three months; the reason why does not matter. There's running water and safe air. And you can go by a major food store on the way and fill your car up - and there's even a camping department with what gear you need.

The challenge is basically, what do you bring of food and related equipment to last you 90 days in a cave? You can disregard clothing, sleeping bags etc and stuff you might need after the term is over.

[Captain Maltese]

Something simpler, then.

How do you treat a deep cut, and with what? Let's say you climb through a broken window and an unseen piece of glass gets in a good cut on your upper arm. Deep enough to pass through the skin and cut shallowly into the muscles inside. Should be a basic paramedic issue, right?

My approach would be to cleanse the wound with something liquid: first preference something antibacterial, secondary would be alcohol, third choice boiled water, fourth choice salt water, fifth choice water with a little bleach in it. Then strip the wound together if strips are available, supeglue secondarily, sew with surgical thread or fishing rod thread third and fourth. Finally cover the wound with a compress and a tight bandage. Prepare to wash and re-cover on a daily basis.

Any better suggestions? I would like to use legionaire-leafs (forgetting the translation) under the compress if available; I can't really think of any other medical things to improve it with.

[Oniya]

Any better suggestions? I would like to use legionaire-leafs (forgetting the translation) under the compress if available;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plantago_major <--This stuff? 

[Captain Maltese]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plantago_major <--This stuff?

Yeah, that is the one. Thank you.

In old war movies we see soldiers pour some kind of white powder on their comrades' wounds. Does anyone know what the actual purpose and effect of that stuff was? I assume it's antibacterial but I don't think I ever heard a name for it.

[Oniya]

I think that was styptic powder - which is something to stop bleeding.  In the days of the wars, it consisted of alum, which works by constricting the blood vessels - this could also cause some tissue death at the wound site, but - better than bleeding to death.  You can still get it in vet-supply stores for treating those little nicks from trimming an animal's nails (less danger at that particular site, I guess.)  They've come up with something better/safer that works by gelling the blood (much like platelets do).  Walgreens carries it under the name 'WoundSeal'.

[Captain Maltese]

Blood stopping is a very interesting topic. What improvised alternatives are there to WoundSeal, from nature or shop bought?

[Oniya]

Most of the herbal remedies that deal with that are astringents like witch hazel (also an antiseptic), marigold (ditto), and yarrow (don't know about the antiseptic properties there).  Oak leaves (tannin is also an astringent) can also be used in a pinch.  These all work more like the styptic powder (by contracting tissues), but aren't nearly as intense as alum.

[Captain Maltese]

Tannin? You mean a thick red wine would help? Or water cooked leaves and branches in general? We don't have much oak in my part of the world; it's mostly pine and fir, and birch and other leaf trees.

[Oniya]

I've never heard of wine being used to stop bleeding, but the alcohol would probably be helpful.  (I think some wines are aged in oak casks, aren't they?)  You can also get tannins from fir and birch, but it's more useful to use the bark in those species - fir (there's a reason for the name 'Tannenbaum') and oak bark are both used in tanning, but birch bark apparently doesn't produce as good a leather.  Boiling the bark would be most effective, but in a pinch, you can chew the twigs or bark strips to form a poultice.

[Captain Maltese]

Yes, oak cask are used for wine and certain stronger alcohols, and even chips from oak casks. Normally most of the tannin comes from grape stems and grape pits, which is why I connected tree branches with tannin. But just using the bark seems more sensible. Mashing the bark into poultice with stones or even teeth sounds like a good go-fer blood stopper in an emergency.

[Oniya]

A good way to tell if a bark has tannin is to chew a bit of it - if you feel the 'mouth draw' that you get from biting into a grape seed (or getting your tea too strong - black tea is another common source), then you've got a decent source.

[Captain Maltese]

Tea. Now there is a thought. Does all tea work as blood stopper, or only the black one? How about coffee?

[Oniya]

Tea made from the tea plant is going to have tannins.  That includes black, green, and white teas, but due to the age of the leaves, the black tea is going to have more tannins than the other two.  A warm tea-bag (no milk or sugar! ;) ) can be used to help draw out styes because of this.  Herbal teas are probably negligible in most cases, as you can let those teas steep for hours without them becoming undrinkable.

According to actual scientific analysis (why can't I get these jobs?) the tannin content of roasted coffee beans is about half that of black tea, so I'd save the coffee for drinking.

[Captain Maltese]

What are styes?

[Oniya]

It's an eye condition where an abscess forms, typically on the inside surface of the eyelid.  Very irritating to painful, but not particularly dangerous. 

[Captain Maltese]

I have seen some weird and not always useful survival gear. But this hairclip toolkit one is just plain eccentric. Something for the ladies for sure, but I still kinda want one now!

[Oniya]

Trolley coin?

I'd be mildly worried about the 'cutter' (although it looks more serrated than 'sharp edge) in my hair, but it's a cool idea.

[Captain Maltese]

While I was out shopping food today I passed by this little thing and thought it might have some potential for experimental survivalist improvisation. At a dollar fifty, why not? But the ladies reading this thread might be more knowledgeable than me, because this is apparently nail polish remover.

Here is the actual item. 100 milliliter of Dimethyl Glutarate and a presumably negligible amount of perfume. The little print on the back says that the product is entirely free of acetone.

My plan now is to do a little chemistry research. But in the meanwhile I would like to hear any suggestions, from practical experience to lab jokes, of what this innocuous product could ever be used for. After all I will probably never need it for what it is supposedly for.

[Oniya]

Well, as it says on the package, it's a solvent (nail polish remover is essentially a mild paint stripper).  We used to use the acetone-based nail polish remover to deal with super-glue accidents, but I'm not sure if the newer formulas are up to that challenge.

Chemically:  DIMETHYL GLUTARATE is an ester. Esters react with acids to liberate heat along with alcohols and acids. Strong oxidizing acids may cause a vigorous reaction that is sufficiently exothermic to ignite the reaction products. Heat is also generated by the interaction of esters with caustic solutions.

So, if you have a source of strong acid (car battery?), you might be able to start a fire with it, although a bottle of isopropyl alcohol would probably do you just as well for less money per unit volume (once you call something a 'cosmetic', you can charge more for it - yay vanity!)

[Captain Maltese]

Well, this one has no acetone so I can't tell. But it is a relevant question because I keep superglue in my emergency medical kit for cut wounds.

I guess this is basically a solvent. I found entire literal lists of stuff you can do with nail polish remover but it gets underlined that this is for the type WITH acetone. I was hoping that the dimethyl glutarate might be useful for something clever in an emergency but right now I don't know in what direction to look.

[Oniya]

I suppose you could do a controlled test to see if the dimethyl will do the same things.  For example, apply a drop of superglue to a surface and let it solidify, then apply some of the dimethyl and see if it softens. 

Apparently the prevalence of non-acetone polish removers is due to the fact that acetone will also remove acrylic nails' adhesive (makes sense, I suppose.)

[Captain Maltese]

Just joking around a bit since it is the holidays....

YOU MAY BE MORE PREPARED FOR THE APOCALYPSE THAN YOU THOUGHT

1. You have a primary defense position with established supply resource maps and escape route - if you live in any kind of home at all.

2. You have a fallback and secondary defense position - if you have at your disposal a cabin, or dependable friends or relatives living near you who will tolerate you sleeping over for a night or two.

3. You have a mobile temporary hideout - if you have a tent and a sleeping bag, or even just a plastic sheet and a blanket.

4. You have a primary close range defense system - if you can pony up a baseball bat, a crowbar, a hammer or even just the biggest knife in your kitchen drawer.

5. You have access to multiple local and global communication systems - if you have a cell phone.

6. You have food supplies for 24 hours - if you have one bottle of water and a couple of tins of tuna. Doesn't sound like much but it will keep you going for that long at least. Which brings me to point 7...

7. You have covered your most essential food making supplies in an emergency - if you have a can opener. If it is placed on a pocket knife, so much the better.

8. You have a complete firestarting kit - if you have one box of matches and a dry newspaper.

9. You can heat water and prepare many types of food - in an emptied tin can with the lid removed and a bit of wire going through two holes near the top, to hang it over the fire with.

10. You can cover your need for the most essential survival clothing - with a one dollar plastic poncho. Because staying dry matters a whole lot than the name brand of your gear. If the shit really hits the fan a big plastic bag with holes cut for your head and arms could be what saves you from hypothermia.

11. You are an expert at survival - the proof is that you made it this far in life. If and when disaster strikes you are capable of a lot of things you might not normally put on your CV. Don't panic and you WILL be a resource for yourself and for others.

[Captain Maltese]

Resuscitating an old thread because the topic seems just as valid.

Fairly recently I saw and reviewed the movie "Into The wild" (2007) which covers the real life story of Cristopher McCandless aka Alexander Supertramp. Very briefly put, McCandless was an A-student who left his career path to seek solitude, trekking and and hoboing around USA before heading to Alaska to live alone in the wilderness by his survival skills and abilities alone. This did not go well.

The reason I am mentioning McCandless is that once he got into the wilderness he essentially became a survivalist. Using an abandoned vehicle as base he fished, hunted and gathered herbs to live of. With him he had basic camping equipment and a small caliber rifle. In addition to a considerable amount of second hand advice he also brought several herb and similar books with him - and he was after all an A student, and no fool. His corpse was found four months later. At the point of death he was estimated to have weighed less than 70 pounds; essentially there was not an ounce of fat left on him. Forensic and nuitrition experts have launches several competing theories about what killed him. One hints that he ate too much lean meat. Another, that the herbs he relied on had been wet when he bagged on.

Why bring this story up here? It is because I think McCandless' death can teach us a few things. Let me start by asking just two things. Has anyone else seen the movie or read the story, and what did you think?

[Cookie]

Yeah sure I know about it, I think McCandless fundamentally died due to a lack of knowledge and preparation. Shame as he seemed like a really interesting and cool guy.  Rangers in the area said that he could have walked to safety if he had a map.

I find Dick Proenneke more interesting, he successfully lived in the wilds of Alaska virtually alone for 30 years, until his 80s!! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Proenneke  He knew what he was doing. He left some great recorded footage too, there's a documentary called Alone in the Wilderness that goes into his experiences, really good if you like that kind of thing.

[Oniya]

Yeah sure I know about it, I think McCandless fundamentally died due to a lack of knowledge and preparation. Shame as he seemed like a really interesting and cool guy.  Rangers in the area said that he could have walked to safety if he had a map.

Or wanted to.  There are certain tricks to finding civilization even without a map.  Settlements tend to form near water, even in the modern age, for nothing more than pure convenience.  A river gives you transportation, water, and food sources.  I think that arrogance might have played a part in McCandless's death:  He thought he knew more than he did (going in), and may have clung to that belief when things went pear-shaped.

As Socrates said, 'I know that I do not know.'

[Cookie]

Or wanted to.  There are certain tricks to finding civilization even without a map.  Settlements tend to form near water, even in the modern age, for nothing more than pure convenience.  A river gives you transportation, water, and food sources.  I think that arrogance might have played a part in McCandless's death:  He thought he knew more than he did (going in), and may have clung to that belief when things went pear-shaped.

As Socrates said, 'I know that I do not know.'

Yeah that wouldn't surprise me. 

Others have said he might have wanted to wing it, as part of the adventure, so he didn't take the time to study or be properly prepared, as that would take away from it all. I struggle to understand why someone would do that, but who knows.

[Captain Maltese]

Excellent, we have a case to discuss then. First off, I agree that McCandless made some pretty drastic choices, definitely putting himself at risk knowingly and unknowingly, and he was more than cocky enough to think he could deal with anything.

I have seen the movie and read a few bits here and there, but haven't read the book. Let me try to make a list of errors anyway.

1. Didn't have a plan. Heading into the wilderness to live off nature was about it. There was no emergency plan, no what ifs.
2. Didn't bring adequate gear. As the movie shows he had not even brought good footgear. Nor were there salt or emergency gear. Any number of events could have offed him.
3. Went in undergunned. Wikipedia states that his rifle was a semi automatic .22 long rifle. That is adequate for killing a rabbit, but for anything bigger that's fairly puny. The movie once show him killing a moose with it and that should not have happened unless the director pulled a quick one or McCandless was incredibly lucky. And he was venturing into bear territory!
4. Had no idea of how to treat game, which resulted in him losing the entire carcass of a whole moose. In the middle of summer fly larvas are a very real treat. Hereabout hunters hang the meat up in tight meshed bags. He had no such things. Nor had he brought salt, or any closable container, and he never even thought of making a fire to fry the meat on. Digging it down, which he tried, might have been a temporary option if he had been able to dig big enough and throw earth on it.
5. Relied almost solely on lean rabbit meat for his meals, and rice while it lasted. Over time that has dangers in itself, but above that is the fact that the body require vitamins and other things. Ask any old time sailor about what happens if you are at sea for too long without access to fruit and vegs. While he did have that wild herbs book he had neither planned for bringing vegetables or seeking out more sizeable growing things to sustain him long term. For instance moss and leaf sprouts offer vitamins and fills the stomach, once you have cooked it.
6. Never attempted to call for help. Sure he was way out in the wilderness but there are other people out there, and planes. Had he made a big fire once he realized his body was failing, he might have been saved. Or built a big L shape from branches, visible to planes. Or he could have brought some emergency flares; they don't last long but if there are people within the nearest mile they might see it. This stuff costs almost nothing.
7. Didn't talk to any locals. He arrived in a state he had never been in before, with unknown nature, and never thought to find a lumberjack, a hunter, or a Native Indian - there are over a dozen tribes and subtribes in Alaska and they know a LOT about the wilderness. And so do the thousands of other Alaskans who make a living in the rural parts of the state.
8. Didn't bring a map, didn't bring a compass, didn't bring a signal mirror, didn't bring a signal flute. Finding the way back in an emergency would have been at least an option.     

Did I forget anything?

[Captain Maltese]

Yeah sure I know about it, I think McCandless fundamentally died due to a lack of knowledge and preparation. Shame as he seemed like a really interesting and cool guy.  Rangers in the area said that he could have walked to safety if he had a map.

I find Dick Proenneke more interesting, he successfully lived in the wilds of Alaska virtually alone for 30 years, until his 80s!! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Proenneke  He knew what he was doing. He left some great recorded footage too, there's a documentary called Alone in the Wilderness that goes into his experiences, really good if you like that kind of thing.

By the way, Proenneke interests me. I'll be delighted to look at his case at some point later, especially as a countercase.

[Oniya]

5. Relied almost solely on lean rabbit meat for his meals, and rice while it lasted. Over time that has dangers in itself, but above that is the fact that the body require vitamins and other things. Ask any old time sailor about what happens if you are at sea for too long without access to fruit and vegs. While he did have that wild herbs book he had neither planned for bringing vegetables or seeking out more sizeable growing things to sustain him long term. For instance moss and leaf sprouts offer vitamins and fills the stomach, once you have cooked it.

Rice?  Was it at least brown rice?  O_o  I haven't looked at his particular story, but rice probably wouldn't be on the top of my 'rations' to pack in for something like that.

[Captain Maltese]

Rice?  Was it at least brown rice?  O_o  I haven't looked at his particular story, but rice probably wouldn't be on the top of my 'rations' to pack in for something like that.

From what I saw in the movie he possessed a single bag of maybe 2-3 kilos of white rice. It was shown only for a few seconds in total so I may have seen wrong.

I kind of understand - white rice is about 90% carbohydrate (starch) and about 8% protein, and both will do a hungry body good. Vietnamese soldiers would carry belts with dried rice as their field rations (cooking was required) and of course considerable parts of the world has it as a staple food. It is a very high nutrient/weight thing to put in your bag and very low cost too - and it stores practically infinitely if kept dry. The downside is the total lack of vitamins. I would definitely prefer brown rice in such a situation since it contains a lot more fiber.

In my daily 'diet' I try to avoid rice, even if I like it. As with pasta there's simply more carbs than I want to put in my body. But as an addition to the meager menu of a survival situation I would be glad to have some.

[Oniya]

Brown rice also contains fairly significant amounts of B6 and magnesium - which I thought I remembered, and went to confirm.  Also, brown rice (being a whole grain and not processed to hell and back) can be sprouted to increase the nutritional benefits.  (I can't access the whole study, but the abstract gives the gist of it.)

[Captain Maltese]

Sprouting sounds interesting. What do you need to use and do to make it happen?

[Oniya]

Jar, water, a little cheese-cloth.  Heck, we sprouted mung beans back in grade school.

Place ½ cup brown rice in a quart-size sprouting jar or other sprouting container. Fill with water, cover with a sprouting screen or mesh sprouting lid  (cheese cloth will work).
Soak 12 hours or overnight.
Drain off water.
Invert the jar over a bowl at an angle so that the rice will drain and still allow air to circulate.
After 12 hours of draining, rinse and drain again.
Repeat rinsing and draining 2-3 times daily.
Tiny sprouts should begin to form in 2-3 days. At this point, sprouting is complete.
Drain the sprouts well and transfer to a covered container.

[Captain Maltese]

Jar, water, a little cheese-cloth.  Heck, we sprouted mung beans back in grade school.

Place ½ cup brown rice in a quart-size sprouting jar or other sprouting container. Fill with water, cover with a sprouting screen or mesh sprouting lid  (cheese cloth will work).
Soak 12 hours or overnight.
Drain off water.
Invert the jar over a bowl at an angle so that the rice will drain and still allow air to circulate.
After 12 hours of draining, rinse and drain again.
Repeat rinsing and draining 2-3 times daily.
Tiny sprouts should begin to form in 2-3 days. At this point, sprouting is complete.
Drain the sprouts well and transfer to a covered container.

It is interesting but I notice that no further nourishment has been added. So this increases the amount of fiber?

[Oniya]

The process of germination makes a number of the B vitamins easier to metabolize, especially B2, B5, and B6.  It also breaks down the phytic acid in the seed, which in turn improves mineral absorption (particularly magnesium).  With other sprouts (like the mung beans), you can also increase the amount of vitamin C.  The Chinese used to carry mung beans on long sea voyages the same way that British sailors eventually carried lemons and limes.

[Captain Maltese]

The process of germination makes a number of the B vitamins easier to metabolize, especially B2, B5, and B6.  It also breaks down the phytic acid in the seed, which in turn improves mineral absorption (particularly magnesium).  With other sprouts (like the mung beans), you can also increase the amount of vitamin C.  The Chinese used to carry mung beans on long sea voyages the same way that British sailors eventually carried lemons and limes.

Wonderful - I was completely unaware of Chinese sailors having mung beans. I'll be researching this.

How do you prepare the sprouts for food? Cook them like with ordinary rice?

[Oniya]

You can cook them (it only takes about 10 minutes to cook sprouted brown rice, as opposed to 45 minutes for unsprouted), or you can dry them and grind them into flour.  Generally, you only want to make as much as you can use, so it would be best to have something like 3 jars that you rotate through - if you were having to use it long-term.  Still not a complicated set-up if you have a base of operations.

[Cookie]

By the way, Proenneke interests me. I'll be delighted to look at his case at some point later, especially as a countercase.

Yes I recommend the documentary it's a good watch. This is just a fragment/trailer but the whole thing is out there if you look around.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYJKd0rkKss

[WindVoyager]

Alaska is a very, very harsh place to live.  It will gleefully chew you up and spit you out with out a second thought.


Sadly a LOT of wanna be preppers and the like will end up like McCandless  since they have this delusion that they are fully prepared and the extent of their knowledge is what they have seen on youtube or read and have no real skills to speak of and wana bes tend to romanticize what SHFT is and that they will live well and happily in the woods when the truth is the furthest thing from it.

SHFT is going to happen sooner or latter but its up in the air as to what will cause it. A lot of people are not prepared for it much less basic emergencies

[Captain Maltese]

Water has been one of my survival concerns. Under normal circumstances I have the luxury of living in a country full of fresh water resources and tap water, nation wide, is drinkable and often downright tasty without any filtering or additives. The water distributor desinfect the water primarily by adding chlorine or by UV light. Buying water on bottles is a very recent trend, and hardly affects the nationwide household water drinking - I actually buy a bottle myself some times while on trips, rather than going for something with sweetening and/or bubbles.

In an emergency scenario, easily accessible drinking water is not a given. I'm old enough to remember when Chernobyl fallout was coming down in this area rending water questionable, and something more local and violent would of course be a threat to all infrastructure. Even just a fuel truck accidentally crashing and rolling down into the local water supply source, a lake near a place where mining still happens. I have room for a bottle or two of water from tap or shop in my bug out bag, but a quarter gallon is literally nothing. And storing water indefinitely in a plastic bottle is not wise as both the plastic, the trapped air, and light can affect the purity.

So, I am carrying two items. One is a collapsible 3 gallon water tank. Fully collapsed the tank takes limited room and little weight. This allows me to store up water if I am leaving a safe area, and also it is well suited for cleaning. The tank is also well suited for rigging a shower, and a long number of other related and unrelated purposes like building a sand filter or transporting gas for a car.

The second item is a bit trickier. Water cleansing pills are not found in just any store here. I have a few old military purification pills in the bag but need more in my supply. Maybe I'll go check out the larger sports stores next time I am in that area.

[Oniya]

Or get a bottle of ordinary bleach (no additives) and a dropper.  The EPA says you can use 6 drops per gallon for emergency purification.  Mix well and let stand for 30 minutes.

If you want something dry (that won't eventually expire), look for calcium hypochlorite at your local swimming pool supply store.  The process takes an extra step, but a 1 lb bag will treat something like 10,000 gallons of water:

1) make a chlorine solution by dissolving 1/4 ounce (about a heaping teaspoon) of Ca(ClO)2 in 2 gallons of water.
2) Add this solution to your drinking supply at a ratio of 1 part to 100.
3) Mix well and let stand for 30 minutes.

This is probably best for once you've gotten your base of operations set up, to make water for multiple days at a time.  The liquid chlorine solution made in step 1 does degrade, and it's a little tricky to make in smaller quantities.  (That 2 gallons of treatment solution makes 200 gallons of potable water.)

[Captain Maltese]

Well, I have now been to one of the better general supply stores in the area. (Side note: what are these called in proper English nowadays anyway? Home depots? Tool shacks? Seriously?)

On the shelf for mostly pool cleaning products I eventually located this; I don't know why the text was in Swedish. We can read English just find here. It is possible the manufacturer is Swedish but I am not sure. It's called "BioCool Clean Water", cost 20 bucks which is a bit stiff imho but offers 250 little white pills. Main ingredient is sodium percarbonate. Each pill is capable of cleaning 5 liter or about 1.3 US gallon, so 3 pills in my 3 gallon collapsible tank should do nicely. After three hours the water is cleansed of bacterias. After 24 hours the water is also clean of parasites. The product specifically mentions being effective against E.coli, Salmonella and cryptosporidium. I could not find any references on its possible protection to water threats like cholera and Legionary Disease, but both of these are bacterias.

My bug out bag, which is a backpack geared for outdoor bad weather camping, is already heavy and bulging. I will probably just pour some of these pills into a rather smaller and lighter box and mark the contents well. Also I intend to test a few pills, for taste effects at least, and it that happens any time soon I will post the results.

The pills are maybe Swedish but I have a feeling there will be plenty of similar products on the market in bigger countries than mine. So far I have not seen any civilian alternatives but in all fairness I have not been looking for any until now.

-----

Ah, and I also looked for a drop counter thingie while I was in relevant stores today. Didn't locate any. Maybe I will have to try an apothecary next. The calcium hypochlorite I didn't even think about this time.

[Oniya]

I did some subcontracting work for the EPA for a while - mostly in the realm of reducing lab results into government-speak.  The products that the tests were done on were specifically disinfectants of various types (also sanitizers and sterilants), and there are certain standard bacteria that these products are tested against.  I used to refer to the big three as 'Steph, Sam, and Sue', being Staphylococcus aureus, Salmonella choleraesuis, and Pseudomonas aeruginosa  (I am proud to say that I spelled those correctly from memory.)  If you've got those three, you're talking a hospital-grade disinfectant.  'Steph' and 'Sam' are required testing on anything labelled 'disinfectant'.  If a product claims more organisms, it needed a certain kill-rate for those as well - which is important with some of the antibiotic resistant strains like MRSA.  For reference, you'll see 'Vibrio cholerae' if they've specifically tested for the cholera bacteria, or Legionella pneumophilia for Legionairre's. 

The reason that they test those specific bacteria is because they represent the major classifications of bacteria - S. aureus is 'Gram positive', S. choleraesuis is Gram negative (as are E. coli, P. aeruginosa, and L. pneumophila)  These refer to difference in the cell-wall structure, so a product that is able to affect one is predicted to be effective against others in that class.

Crypto is a particularly nasty one, since it has a protected 'spore' phase.  They would have tested that to get the 'free of parasites' claim.

[Captain Maltese]

Oniya, you keep impressing me with your skill sets. Happen to have a pilot's certificate or a whaling permit in there as well?  ;D Just kidding. But I am quite interested to hear what consumer-available products can do what the hospital grade ones achieve.

[RedRose]

I knew guys who were into youtube videos and all... They thought themselves ready, obviously it didn't go well for them  XD But thankfully, they all made it in decent condition. Had they attempted some place harsher, it might have been different.

[Oniya]

Oniya, you keep impressing me with your skill sets. Happen to have a pilot's certificate or a whaling permit in there as well?  ;D Just kidding. But I am quite interested to hear what consumer-available products can do what the hospital grade ones achieve.

My piloting experience is limited to a few hours playing MS Flight Simulator (which ended quite badly for all passengers and crew).  As for whaling, I read Moby Dick cover to cover - does that count for anything?  ;D  The basic differences that I recall between the hospital grade stuff and the stuff you can get over the counter are: concentration (hospital stuff is high-test), package size (because 5 one-gallon containers take up more room than 1 five-gallon container), and organisms that they counter (hospitals are very concerned about the antibiotic-resistant strains, and some buggies that are particular dangerous to immuno-compromised individuals, like newborns, the elderly, and transplant patients.)

One thing that most people don't know about is the significance of the EPA Reg. No. that you see on many pesticide/germicide products.  All of the products that went through testing have this down in a corner of the label near the use instructions.  The EPA has a database where you can look up information on the product, including accepted labels.  These are quite a bit more extensive than the labels you see on the bottle.  Ultra Clorox Bleach (EPA Reg No. 5813-50) has a 43-page PDF file.  Try cramming that on a gallon jug!  You'll find lists there of all the organisms that the product is able to claim efficacy against - not all of them will generally appear on a household label, because most homeowners don't care about some of them, but when a particular organism is making headlines (H1N1, anyone?) the disinfectant companies want to be able to advertise how well they work.

[Captain Maltese]

I started a thread that focuses on homemade MRE's. It's a narrow subject that I plan to pursue in detail so I thought I'd keep it off this thread.

https://elliquiy.com/forums/index.php?topic=274126.0

[Captain Maltese]

Hurricanes, fires, floods, earthquakes.... 2017 has been a rough year for some people. I am reading about this in the news websites and see the odd short TV newsclip but since all of this happens very far away from me I don't get much in the way of details. If anyone here on E have been through any of this up close, I am very interested  in learning more. How did you deal with it? How did your local community and local authorities deal with it? Was there plundering or other crimes? Did any aid organizations turn up and what did they actually contribute? Was there a military presence? How was supplies of food, heating fuel, electricity, car fuel, drinking water? Did the neighborhood cooperate? Was there need for medical aid? Does insurance do its job? The last emergency I can recall getting real details on was the 2009 flooding of Louisiana.

[RedRose]

There are very few preppers in my country. I think we're too smug to think it would really happen, or something. Even last year when there was this flood, and people got evacuated in walking distance from my home, I didn't really think of "doing" anything except keep an eye on the lake nearby  ::) But now, I see more and more people actually wondering if they should be preparing in some way. I suppose the news did it.

[Captain Maltese]

I have a case study for you guys, so fresh it is still happening.
Place: Puerto Rico.
Disaster: Hurricane Maria and its aftermath
Time: right now.

I am basing this post on various media information and interviews.

Puerto Rico is in Latin America, but under American rule - for instance it no longer has an army of its own. The 3.5 million citizens have American passports. The capital and main city is San Juan.

As this is posted, the hurricane itself ended about seven days ago. It was bad; destroying homes and infrastructure, but the loss of lives during the hurricane was low.

The reason I am making this one a case study is the aftermath. Because something has gone horribly wrong in a place run by American governing. Electricity has not been restored. The hospitals ran on gas generators - until gas ran out as well. Hospital life support units no longer operate and several people on life support died when power ran out. Gas is now very scarce and restricted to a couple of gallon each where fuel can still be optained at all. Food is running out. What planes on the airport are still able to lift have no passengers on board, because the computers running the boarding systems have no power any more and no country will allow air passengers to just arrive without a proper departure checkin.

There is emergency staff in Puerto Rico. But they are holed up in a convention center, maybe the only large remaining building in San Juan still with air condition, wondering what they should do but not doing anything but having a convention while they wait for someone, anyone, to take charge. And the hurricane was a week ago.

Some relief work is happening. By small random groups grabbing shovels trying to save people or fix the blocked roads. FEMA has shown up with a group of experts, with document cases but bringing neither food, water, medicines or tools or machinery. The US Navy is now sending one emergency ship, the USN Comfort, to see what they can do. EST: nine days from now.

I will report further as I find more information or need to correct anything. The death numbers WILL rise, once cell phones can find the juice to start working again and make reports from the non-central areas, and once anyone starts receiving calls in the government buildings again. Evidently, it may take some time.

[Vekseid]

Puerto Rico is a territory of the United States, taken from Spain in the Spanish-American war (which my great-great grandfather fought in) along with Cuba and the Philippines. They are United States citizens. Like Cuba and the Philippines, they have been royally dicked around from a variety of policies.

A part of this debacle is it took the executive branch (read: Trump) until this morning to grant a Jones act exemption for the island. This prevented foreign shipping from providing aid. For Texas and Florida, this took two days.

The major issue, however, is the complete annihilation of the communication infrastructure. It is basically gone. This has paralyzed the island. Aid groups are bringing in Ham Radio operators.

The Comfort is specifically a medical ship. The Kearsarge Amphibious Ready Group was already present in the region due to the effort in the US Virgin Islands, and is assisting Puerto Rico as well. The Comfort should have been activated immediately, of course, but still.

[Captain Maltese]

Always a honor to have your input, Veks.

I had not heard about Kearsarge Amphibious Ready Group before. I checked out their website briefly and it appears to be a unit of US Marines specializing in light amphibious landings that is especially assigned to support emergency teams. That makes me a little wary because while they are clearly proficient at arriving at places and rescuing people during a disaster, they do not seem to be equipped for actually repairing infrastructure. They have ships and marines and guns, but not really any engineer units. They need emergency teams to cooperate with. Of course the US Marines have a plentiful supply of engineers and heavy equipment but if this group has them on their three ships, it was not mentioned. What groups do they normally cooperate with; FEMA?

I am very interested in hearing about which aid organizations have arrived at Puerto Rico as yet. I will admit right away that I have a difficult relationship with the big aid NGOs, as I equally do with the government ones, and that probably stems from seeing them in their worst days rather than the best because media reports the bad stuff more eagerly. So I saw FEMA during the 2009 floodings, I saw American Red Cross during the previous Haiti rebuild, I have seen UN 'help' over and over, I have seen what various religious charities do with the money they have collected, and how they deal with undesirables like staff that gets pregnant out of wedlock. I have seen the 'aid' given to the half drowned refugees in Greece. Or how foreign aid funds the pockets of corrupt leaders and lying officials in the countries they are supposed to help. If I give more detailed examples I will be here all night. I guess I am good at picking up the bad stuff. So I will be more than happy to hear what aid organizations are doing of good things in Puerto Rico. It would be nice to trust someone again.

The ham radios mentioned; are we talking about the old truck radio systems, or the Baofeng class UHF/VHF radios?

[Vekseid]

The US Army Corps of Engineers handles engineering, and they began moving in Sunday. Kearsarge is largely focusing on supply drops and medical evacuations.

And to be perfectly frank, I am honestly not sure. The biggest reason I haven't sounded a site-wide horn about this is because I honestly do not know what aid groups to reliably point people to.

[Captain Maltese]

I am not letting go of the Puerto Rico case, and will post further info as I get it, but there is another story coming up now that is of a very different magnitude. Crazy as the whole thing is, US authorities are now starting to calculate on the possible event and ramifications of North Korea hitting western USA with nuclear missiles. Not just Hawaii - but California. That is a lot of people. And US authorities are not sounding confident about dealing with it.

http://foreignpolicy.com/2017/09/25/california-is-already-preparing-for-a-north-korean-nuclear-attack/amp/

I got this link through a respectable Norwegian website, but don't know how reputable they are. But at least it is in English.

One key info is that the first warning will only arrive minutes before the actual strike. 15 minutes for Hawaii, a little more for California. But the alarm system is not even in place yet.

There is a document from intelligence in Los Angeles, 16 pages, on how authorities SHOULD prepare, and how individuals should react to a sudden blast. I don't have the link, sorry. But the story mentioning it says that the document warns that NO federal response should be expected within the nearest 24 to 72 hours. In Hawaii, the citizens are advised to stock at least 10 days' worth of food.

I am not an American. But I am a child of the Cold War. I remember the fear. These days they still run the emergency warning loudspeaker signal once a year, but the bunkers are gone - there is nowhere to run. Not that we ever had much of a system. I remember being told by a teacher, when I was a kind, that the entire are and its civil defence possessed a grand total of two ABC suits. He had one of them; his job was to go out there and count bodies. 30 years later there still are about two ABC suits in town. I have them, and they are my private property. Where the nearest remaining civil defense unit is today, I do not know.

I don't want to maximise fear and panic. In all likelihood the North Korean situation will blow over. The world has seen so many dire threats vaporize before. But there is an ill wind blowing these days. At least considering our what-if options seems wise.

[Oniya]

Not that we ever had much of a system. I remember being told by a teacher, when I was a kind, that the entire are and its civil defence possessed a grand total of two ABC suits. He had one of them; his job was to go out there and count bodies. 30 years later there still are about two ABC suits in town. I have them, and they are my private property. Where the nearest remaining civil defense unit is today, I do not know.

We were told to duck under our desks - as if sheet metal and particle board were going to protect you from anything, much less a bomb drop.

[Captain Maltese]

We were told to duck under our desks - as if sheet metal and particle board were going to protect you from anything, much less a bomb drop.

The desk is not entirely foolish mind you; it will protect a little from window glass shards, and if the roof starts disintegrating - and it WILL, the lower chalk plates and the metal supporters at least - you get a little protection from that too. But I would rather run to the nearest cellar.

When I was in the army, in 1988, we were given two brushes. One black for our boots, and one blue. The blue was the 'atomic' one. Once the blast of the atomic bomb had passed and returned, we were supposed to calmly stand up and brush the nuclear dust off our uniforms. Good as new!

[Captain Maltese]

Continuing on the Puerto Rico case. Some news, at least of yesterday:
- the military has arrived and are working to restore electricity.
- the roads are slowly becoming accessible again.
- the mayor of the capital San Juan has made a passionate plea for supplies. I am not sure of the date of this speech.

Since there are political elements to this story I want to make a couple of personal things clear. I am a Norwegian and I live in Norway. But I cherish USA, I cherish Americans; we have a lot in common on many levels and most of my friends live there. Yet, if I was forcibly turned into an American citizen, sent through a time machine and pushed kicking and screaming into a voting booth during the last election, my vote would be blank. I see good things and good people in both parties but I am not a fan of either and I did not like any of the presidential candidates. I have no political interest in criticizing or piling blame on anyone. If I go into the actions of Trump, Obama, Bush II, Clinton or Bush I it is because I see it as relevant.

Another thing, before I delve into Puerto Rico and its crisis management. Politicians must be held responsible for initiating, funding and overseeing the systems that protect and support the the citizens of the country they are part of. But the systems themselves are - or are supposed to be - built up not by politicians, but by professional administrators. By specialists, bureaucrats and by the experiences of the field staff. Once a disaster strikes and the system is needed, it should not matter which political party is currently in charge. The plans should already have been written and tested, the stores should be full, the trucks should be ready to drive out. And of course, this is how things should be locally as well a nationally. The politicians of the state, county or municipality has no less obligation to keep their own citizens safe though good and tested plans.

At the suggestion of Dark Raven and Vekseid's comments, I have looked into Puerto Rico's (PR in short)politics and administration. Wikipedia is my friend for this.
Geographically: Caribbean island
History: booty taken from Spain as part of the end of the US-Spanish war in 1898
Sovereignty: unincorporated territory of the United States. All citizens are natural-born US citizens. As the island is not a state or part of the state, citizens cannot vote in US elections.
Population: 3.4 millions (as of 2016). By comparison Norway has 5 million citizens.
Government: The island has a governor, elected by the local citizens.
Economy: current debt is by August 2017 above 72 billion USD, and the island is struggling to cover payments. The administration has filed for restructuring. The poverty rate, which I understand to be the percentage of the population living in poverty, is at 45%.
International politics: The UN have been pushing for an end to what they call colonial rule over the island, for many decades.
Main politics: Quoting Wikipedia directly: "Puerto Rico has 8 senatorial districts, 40 representative districts and 78 municipalities. It has a republican form of government with separation of powers subject to the jurisdiction and sovereignty of the United States.[140][141] Its current powers are all delegated by the United States Congress and lack full protection under the United States Constitution.[142] Puerto Rico's head of state is the President of the United States."
Leadership: Current governor is Ricardo Antonio Rosselló Nevare, who with his party works to make PR a US state. He is considered a centrist. His education is solid, he has a Ph.D. in biomedical engineering, but he is also the son of a former governor.
Administration: There are no first-order administrative divisions. The municipalities are the key governing structure, each divided further into barrios with separate mayors.
Crime: overall crime rate is low. Most violence appear to be between drug cartels.
Military: PR has a national guard, modeled on the US national guard. The quotes for this part-time unit ranges from 7200 to 8900. I have not heard mention yet of them being deployed in this emergency, and obviously they should have been, so I wonder what the reality of this force is. In addition to the locals, USA have had a long number of small and big military installation on this and related nearby mini-islands. Again I have problems estimating what are left of them and who it would be natural to call on.
Infrastructure: Roads, bus services, and a metro system I am not sure of the range of. Three international airports, nine ports. There is a single, government owned, power company for the whole island. Lots of media including tv stations, cable tv, internet and radio.
Health: surprisingly good coverage of public services; many hospitals and treatment plans. Their biggest problem is that many doctors emigrate to the US mainland because this greatly increases their potential income - the usual problem in lower income countries.

All in all I see a modern 'country' in Puerto Rico. Debt and lower incomes are serious issues but most of Latin America would be joyous to be doing this well. If I am going to pinpoint one reason for them being in deep dodo right now I am picking the decentralized nature of their administration: A town mayor will not be planning for electricity plant problems, or keeping the roads open, beyond his town limits. The top guys will have been fighting the usual stabbetystab on which municipality gets the most money for social costs etc. But I just can't see anyone charged with the nationwide problems. Defense? The Americans will take care of that. Keeping the wheels running on a daily basis? The Mayors, because it is in their direct interest. But once a problem gets big enough to cross the local borders, noone are there to deal with it. Maybe this current emergency's problems are as simple as that.

[Captain Maltese]

Vekseid has made a thread about Puerto Rico's post-hurricane issues.

As mentioned earlier, the mayor of the capital San Juan made a passionate plea for help the other day. It has resulted in a media argument between her and Trump which is helpful only in that it keeps attention on the issue. I find some of her claims interesting. For instance, she claims that the FEMA lets those afflicted ask for help - on a web page. On an island where many has not had access to electricity for their computers and their cell phones for nine days. Is this true? Are there no other ways to pass the word? Also she claims that FEMA officials are there, asking what they can do for her city, what they need, giving her forms to fill. There are almost 300.000 people in San Juan alone and they have no food, water, electricity, medicines - and the FEMA don't see what they need to do?

On another matter. To the best of my knowledge, Trump - the president of Puerto Rico - has not visited the island yet nor planned a visit. I am in two minds about this and leaning a little on past events in Norway too. Having the head of state visit an area of emergency has no practical value, and the cost is enormous. And the civilian airports are out of work - although the local US military ones are probably fine. But it does have moral value, showing the locals they have not been forgotten. So worldwide, national leaders normally do swoop in.

During the 2005 flooding of Louisiana, FEMA was revealed to have a leader, appointed by his personal friend Bush II, whose entire prior management turned out to be a horse riding school for girls. Since 2003, FEMA has been sorting under the Department Of Homeland Safety. I skimmed through their website, and Wikipedias, but could not find how many people work there now. The 2017 budget is however 14 billion USD. If you guys can tell me who is actually in charge and how effective the organization is, I would be quite interested.

One more thing. Trump claimed that there are now 10.000 federal workers on Puerto Rico. Who do they sort under; are they the already present stationed military personnel which would mean they are mostly part time national guards, or all newly arrived helping personnel?

[SINless]

https://www.fema.gov/leadership

[Captain Maltese]

https://www.fema.gov/leadership

Interesting! So the chief has been there since this June and his assistant since the last two weeks? Does this mean they were appointed as part of the presidential change of guards, or is it just a coincidence? If we disregard the Puerto Rico issue, how have they been handling the other hurricanes, floods and fires on their shift?

I know that discussing FEMA is more than a few notches above packing our bug out bags. But regardless of what country we live in, the emergency response structure greatly affects our own options for what we can and should do of personal preparations. Some can always count on being safely evacuated if they want to be. Others cannot.

[Captain Maltese]

Nicely timed, I found a Fox news interview from today with FEMA director Brock Long. He claims that, regarding Puerto Rico:
- 700 out of 1100 gas stations has petroleum available again
- 11 major highways (out of X) are open for traffic again
- 300 pharmacies are open
- only 16 people are dead, as compared to 1800 during hurricane Katrina in 2005
- a third of telecommunications are now up and running. He did not specify further,
- the military have been focusing on getting electricity back up, saying "there will be multiple months before the grid is up and running again".

I am not the best judge of people. And I know the scene was carefully set for the interview, with his FEMA shirt instead of a suit and a backdrop showing a video from an operations room he was not in. We all know where we have Fox News. None the less I felt he seemed to know what he was talking about, and careful not to get political even though the interviewer tried to nudge him there.

[Oniya]

The official FEMA site about Maria is probably a better place to analyze their stats than whatever talking heads choose to show on Fox News.  This is where you'll find the official federal updates.

[Captain Maltese]

I checked out the FEMA page again. Puerto Rico has completely vanished from my country's news, which isn't odd. According to the FEMA status, this is the current situation (my comments in black):
- hospitals are all running again, and the USN Comfort medical ship is assisting as needed.
- airports and ports are fully operational again
- 60% of population has drinking water; the rest is getting water supplied.
- 75% of grocery stores are open again.
- 392 miles of Puerto Rico's 5,073 miles of roads are open, allowing for passage through the outer ring of the island. Um, they have some work left there.
- 60% of waste water treatment plants are working on generator power in Puerto Rico. It does not detail whether this means the other 40% are not working at all, or working on normal power.
- San Juan financial district is back on the electrical grid -- 15% of customers have electricity. I can't find further information on this. Is it 15% in San Juan, or 15% of Puerto Rico?

Some stuff I have not found information on at all as yet, is what impact the hurricane has had on crime levels. Are police operational? What tasks do the PR National Guard perform in this situation? Are there reports of plundering, black market sales, are there reports of increased violence? I don't really expect FEMA to report this kind of stuff but I don't know where else to go for information.

[Captain Maltese]

I located an NBC newsstory from the 8th October. It claims that 85% of Puerto Ricans still have no power 19 days after the hurricane (note previous post), and that the death count is now 39. It was 16 just a few days ago? Also, FEMA states that although they provide food and water to the stricken municipalities the local distribution is up to the mayors and their administrations. In the municipalities that were struck hard enough to leave them without roads or means of transportation, that one is going to be a challenge. FEMA do however visit the municipalities to help citizens fill in paper forms to apply for help.

We are not in Puerto Rico. But personally I would be in trouble by now if power was still out. I'd still have food and warmth because I have stores of food and firewood. But if the stores did not have electricity and online access I would not be able to shop food or fuel or meds with my bank card, nor would the ATM machines work - they only keep cash reserves for a couple of normal days anyway and with an impending hurricane the 'out of cash' sign would come up pretty soon. I would have no money available - it's not as if the physical banks keep cash on hand any more. Turns out we don't need to worry about the actual apocalypse. Broken infrastructure is clearly challenging enough.

[Captain Maltese]

A lot of people who plan for a future major disaster event, plan for themselves or for their very closest family. It is a natural way of thinking, of course. But if all known big bad events in the past and present proves one thing, it is that once the hammer hit we rarely get the option to stay alone. We join up with others, to be protected or to get other types of help, or we are herded into camps of some kind by the authorities. Makes it easier to feed and protect us, and also easier to control us. Pick any refugee camp in the world right now. Pick any border with emergency traffic. Pick a flooded area. Some places you are offered the chance to be rescued but can choose to stay. Other places you get neither. The fact that you might be able to eke out the troubles alone, does not mean that you will get the chance to.

For my part I am not enthusiastic about being herded. But not having a plan for a group situation feel like closing my eyes to one of the most likely outcomes. I don't like being told what to do and what not to do, especially if I don't have great trust in the people giving the orders. What I feel certain about is that I am not going to be in charge, and that there will be no voting - just people with badges and local officials and politicians who have neither trained, prepared or even thought that something like this could happen here and now they are away from their desks and offices for the first time in their career. I might, in theory, know more about how to handle an epidemic than these guys but they certainly aren't going to ask anyone for advice because they never do. And there isn't one guy in military uniform within a 1200 km radius of here who is capable of leaving their base to help anyone else.

So I am wondering, how do you guys relate to the possibility being forcibly relocated for time unknown into a camp you are not allow to leave? I am pretty sure all firearms would be confiscated on sight in any camp here in Norway, but this is a nation where only criminals carry weapons anyway, and in a nation wide hostile situation there are no one in this country capable of establishing a camp anyway. I grant you, this is a nice place in peacetime but only the naive and/or heavily medicated would think we have any actual military capabilities to create defendable camps. So being moved to a camp is for us just a nature disaster scenario anyway. I am far more worried that in a camp I would be far more likely to get infected by any biological threat, I would be in the hands of well meaning but un skilled officials, and worst of all - I would be completely unable to affect my own fate. But this is me; I would rather die alone than live in a hive of people I could not keep away from me.

[Captain Maltese]

A little something, proving that also the wealthy plan for the apocalypse. And that they have no intention of letting it cramp their style.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XfLE64zztRA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kN8D-lVnPWA

[Captain Maltese]

Here's a little something I have made a few sets of. They cost little and can fit anywhere.

Left to right:
- Half a dozen cotton pins. Handy for cleaning a wound
- rubber band, keeps those pins together
- four painkiller pills
- roll of gauze
- a pair of rubber gloves
- secondhand pill box. More watertight than many alternatives.
- half a dozen safety pins. Could come in handy, especially for securing the bandage gauze
- five small and five medium band aids

Fitting all this into the box isn't particularly hard. Nor is using a marker to make that tell tale red cross.

[Captain Maltese]

I am working on a water purification kit. Something small and handy, that anyone can put together at a low price, that will try to meet as many water related challenges as possible. This is what I have thought of so far.

- drinking bottle, the type with a wide cap.
- purification pills, as described in previous posts.
- small bottle of bleach, 150-200 ml.
- dropper. I FINALLY found a store that sold them, and the price was just 3 dollars for 20.
- salt.

The idea is that all of that fits into the drinking bottle. Between the pills and the salt and the bleach this kit should be able to make many gallons of water that is drinkable, or suitable for washing with.

There are some purification systems available that claim you can drink muddy water straight from the road ditch, instantly. Their capacity seems limited though and the prices are unpleasant.

Comments anyone? Is there something that is pointless or really should be added? I am considering adding rubber gloves considering there's concentrated bleach here.

[WindVoyager]

Disaster challenge: A SHTF event is about to happen. You have only a few days to prepare, it can be anything realistic, a natural disaster, WW3 and the like. The situation will last at least a two months or more, likely a lot longer

Keep in mind the power is going to go out and you will not have running water, no refrigeration or anything unless you have a generator you an run but keep in mind running a generator will draw attention and they need a lot of fuel.

Now lets make this harder, you an go only to ONE store. That's all you have time for. One store.

We live out in the country, not in the boonies but its far enough that if SFHT happened and everything was going to hell we can use the tractor to rip the road to the property up and lay some trees down across it to stop vesicles. Won't stop people.

One the food in the city runs out there will be people spreading out looking for food.

As for cooking, how do you plan on doing it?

I personally have a pair of small steel  folding stoves that can burn pretty much anything. Fuel cans, paper, leaves, stick, twigs , gel fuels and more and an a smoker\BBQ cross but since the smoke and smell will draw attention, I won't be using it much once the masses began to look for food. The small folding stoves give off very little to no smoke and use very little fuel.

What about water?

I have a deep well on the property but with out power the pump won't work. It may be possible for me to hook it up to solar power to get it to work but I also have  a near by lake and a creek. On top of that I have a water catchment system so I'm not worried about water. Keeping people away from our water supply is a worry and we will have to set up patrols.

That and we do have poultry but again someone who is hungry and desperate will do stupid things to get to food. We also have a massive garden that includes grains but nothing is even remotely ready and it will be some time before anything is.

As for the store, I'd head right for Sam's. I"m going to focus on food at the moment and going from the top of my head I'd get



6 white corn masa mix 50 lb bag

6 self rising yellow corn meal 25 lb

6 self rising flour 25lb

6 corn grits, yellow 25 lb

6 corn starch

6 baking powder

6 instant dry yeast

6 all purpose flour 25 lb

6 baking soda

2 Ghirardelli Majestic Cocoa Powder (2 lb.)

8 Jasmine Rice (25 lb.)

6 Mashed Potatoes (3.24 lbs.)

6 Hashbrown Potatoes (33 oz.)

8 dried  Pinto Beans (12 lbs.)

8 dried Black Beans (12 lbs.)

noodles, assorted

5 picked jalapeno slices

2 raw honey

6 vinegar, jug

5 extra virgin olive  oil

8 canned black beans, case

8 Canned green beans, case

8 canned whole corn, case

8 canned diced tomatoes , case

8 Canned stewed tomatoes, case

8 Canned backed beans, case

8 canned salmon, case

8 sardines, case

8 chunk chicken, case

8 canned sweet peas, case

8 baked beans, case

8 refried beans, case

8 mined garlic

8 pink salt

seasonings

Jerky

Green tea

English Breakfast tea

Gatorade

I would also throw in a lot of potatoes , they are easy to keep and can be planted.

[Captain Maltese]

Interesting one, Windvoyager. It doesn't apply to every kind of place and population I think; there would literally have to be alien flying iarcraft zipping around shooting buildings into flames and waving tentacles before most Norwegians would consider looting stores. We would probably go binge shopping with a major emergency ahead though. For my part I would be focusing on bags of rice, bags of macaroni, bags of groats (is that a common word?), stuff that would give a lot of meals per volume and per packaging unit and not require cold storage. But I already have a lot of canned goods at the cabin which is my alpha retreat option. I am more concerned that your average modern grocery store doesn't really have any on-site storage beyond what are in their shelves. A lot of items would be gone within a couple of hours. For instance I would want to buy some extra painkiller but they only sell them to you one box (20 pills) per day, as per law. I doubt the store has has much as 20 boxes in stock on any given day. And most of the big-sized items Windvoyager describes like beans are only available in 1-2 pound size packaging here. Heh. Also I am thinking like someone who never bakes. I doubt I'd even think of flour and yeast until it was too late.

[Oniya]

bags of groats (is that a common word?)

Oats for porridge, if I remember?  It was in a nursery rhyme/riddle I used to know...

As I went through the garden gap,
Who should I meet but Dick Red-cap!
A stick in his hand, a stone in his throat,
If you'll tell me this riddle, I'll give you a groat.

[WindVoyager]

Don't have goats here. Will have to see if Red Mill makes them. Any thing not common or super processed food is hard to find unless you look online or to to expensive specialty stores.

I personally can not stand oatmeal. But I do love grits and that seven grain hot cereal Red Mill makes.

It sadly doesn't take much for most people here to start the looting. Not much at all. And the thing is they tend to steal useless electronics first! No one thinks to steal things like food until latter.

I am more concerned that your average modern grocery store doesn't really have any on-site storage beyond what are in their shelves. A lot of items would be gone within a couple of hours.

The local stores would be all cleared out in a matter of hours. I've seen it happen every time natural disaster rolls through and people rather sit around and wait until the disaster is upon them to do anything.

. And most of the big-sized items Windvoyager describes like beans are only available in 1-2 pound size packaging here.

That's why I love Coco and Sam's. They are warehouse stores. They sell everything in large amounts for not much. I do the majority of the baking in our group so I tend to keep a lot of staples on hand at all times.

[Captain Maltese]

Oatmeal and groats are probably the same thing - in general. But even in my small local stores I can probably find 30 different products based on them, from fairly pure outmeal to porridge base to musli mixes to meal replacement bars. There's even a couple of yoghurt-and-oatmeal breakfast packages. Frankly I used to avoid oatmeal products like the plague until fairly recently but I have come around, especially after I found a porridge mix with vanilla powder and raisins which I now eat every day. Oatmeal can be eaten hot or cold, with water or with milk, cooked or just with hot water, salted or sweetened, it can be added to soups and stews, or be used for cookies or bread or homemade bars  - very versatile. It is a very cheap product, and low on weight - important if you are on foot. It is filling for a hungry stomach. And then there are the nutriental value: carbs to keep the machinery running, fiber to slow down the burn, and actual vitamins. It stores well too.

The only downside I can think of is that it tastes boring in its simplest form, and requires dry storage - but a ziplock plastic bag deals with the latter.

[Captain Maltese]

I haz a Water Straw(TM). I was surprised to be given one as a gift recently. At first glance it seems remarkably like a Life Straw, which I have at least heard of.



I am pretty sure this is a knockoff version of the Life one, and the somewhat terse instructions also indicates that not the world's biggest branding budget has been involved here. But it seems like a pretty straightforward product. You place the lower end into whatever water is at hand, suck water in and it passes the filter then arrives at your mouth. Testing mine I found that this resulting water taste like I had sucked it through an entire watering hose but I guess that will pass. Or at least, I will rather drink plasticky water than filthy water.

This being a knockoff I am not even going to guess how long this filter will last; there's no way to inspect the inside and I guess it depends on how bad the water is that is being filtered. It is nice that there's a little rubber lid or cup for both ends attached by a rubber string but it's not a lot more important than the carbine hook which is also a bit pointless. To me. I can't imagine who goes around with equipment dangling off their belt/pack, but then I say the same about canteens and flashlights.

All in all, this is a nifty little gizmo. If you are in a situation and place where you can't be guaranteed clean water, like in a flood or volcano outbreak or whatever else Fate throws at you, then this could be very handy indeed. I doubt it will deal with plagues and Legionaire Disease and other heavy issues but it handily beats draining mud water through your socks.

[Oniya]

One thing that I've used caribiners for is to keep a needed piece of equipment at the 'top' of a bag (inside, not dangling).  Sometimes a zip-tie extension is needed to get an extra 'joint' in the connection, but having your water bottle/filter straw/flashlight where you don't have to rummage for it is pretty handy. 

[Captain Maltese]

One thing that I've used caribiners for is to keep a needed piece of equipment at the 'top' of a bag (inside, not dangling).  Sometimes a zip-tie extension is needed to get an extra 'joint' in the connection, but having your water bottle/filter straw/flashlight where you don't have to rummage for it is pretty handy.

That is an interesting point. The bigger backpacks can get pretty stuffed.

[Captain Maltese]

Among the lesser known German 19th century inventions is the Göffel, also known as a spork. This handy little combination tool could be found in the pack of every German soldier in both world wars. The handle folds one way and locks the other, and the whole contraption weighs next to nothing.



Modern day sporks are even simpler, and made of even lighter metal or simply plastic in variable quality.



An interesting variation is the Australian military version which combines a spoon with a can opener; FRED. Officially this is short for "Field Ration Eating Device" but unofficially it is the "Fucking Ridiculous Eating Device". Considering the spoon is the size of a finger nail the nickname might not be entirely undeserved.

[Captain Maltese]

https://www.outsideonline.com/1928656/most-influential-gear-all-time

The Most Influential Gear of All Time.We’ve scoured the gear archives and the history of sport across continents and eras to compile our first attempt at an authoritative list of the 100 most important outdoor inventions ever.

High quality article looking into all sorts of groundbreaking field gear. A long but great read.

[Captain Maltese]

There's a big hurricane coming, once again, and I don't like what little I am hearing. I'm hoping someone with a more direct connection to American news will make a proper, continuously updated thread for Florence. The facts reaching me so far through various channels is that 1.7 million people are being evacuated and that military the forces are moving vulnerable assets like aircrafts and strengthening their presence on bases with low manpower.

It's not the end of the world, but the forecasts are saying that shit could be hitting the fan on unprecedented levels. The best suggestion I have heard so far, if you are anywhere near the projected paths, is that now could be a good time to give blood.

[Captain Maltese]

Our kind Elliquiy staff has dedicated a thread to the Hurricane Florence here. Information about events and local resources should be posted there.

Meanwhile more general but potentially useful tips can be posted here if anyone wants to share; if anything it might keep the official thread less cluttered.

-------

Looks like we are talking more of a flooding scenario than a hurricane right now. Less stuff flying in the air but more damage on the ground. Roads, rivers and other waterways filling up. Drinking water, electricity, cell phone networks will likely fail for a while. Transport and commerce will more or less come to a halt. For a while. We've seen this kind of thing before. Since authorities have been faster to evacuate citizens this time there'll be hopefully few people hurt.

If you are evacuated:
- get some hand sanitizer and use it frequently. Evac centers are not hygienic.
- bring a roll of toilet paper.

If you might get caught up in the floods:
- get a whistle. Basic one dollar, plastic whistle. It wil be heard further than your voice and you can blow it a lot longer and more frequently than you can shout.
- avoid tap water once the floodings start. Even if the pumps still work the integrity of the big underground pipes might not. At least cook it before you drink it if you have no other alternatives.
- check that the batteries in your flashlight are still fine.

[Arhys]

I'm into long distance cycling, trekking, and wilderness camping so there is some cross over. I do a lot of the things doomsday preppers do with canning and preserving vegetables, always making sure I have fire supplies at hand, things like that. I don't store much because I live in a city so quarters are tight.

What I really notice though is how I am educating my son. I fully expect his world to turn to utter shit, and want him to know self defense, basic engineering and water management like running  pumps, making nets, etc. I am lucky to live in a place that would be one of my top locations to try and survive the Big Whatever, but I want him to grow up knowing he can head off into the mountains wherever and make it.

[WindVoyager]

Witht he way things are going I won't be surprised at all if things go to shit before the year is out. Most people will not be prepared at all. Then again most people don't even have enough food for more then a few days and pretend disasters can't affect them or ignore it until its too late and they rush to the store, fight the crowd, and largely load up on junk food and stuff they don't need.

A major peeve of mine is all the youtube and arm chair 'preppers' who buy expensive gear and don't know how to use it, buy food and hoard it and don't rotate it or even eat most the things they hoard. They always talk about calories this and calories that but they neglect that protein and fats are very important and push food that is very low on nutrition.

[Captain Maltese]

Arhys: One of the oldest, viking era 'wise words' translate to something like this:
Betre byrdi du ber 'kje i bakken enn mannavit mykje. "Lighter load you do not carry, that lots of knowledge." Teaching practical knowledge to the next generation is literally priceless. I learned most of what I know of outdoor fieldcraft while still a kid.

---

Wildvoyager: Most of my gear does not have a recognisable brand name, and the people online that I normally discuss this topic with do not seem to put much importance on it. I think perhaps the youtube bunch is different because they earn money on promoting specific products? I'll admit I stick to just one forum for this stuff.

---

A few days ago the Norwegian government issued a list for what every household should contain in case there is an emergency. Its contents are of the obvious type; food, batteries, water etc. The unusual thing is that the list was issued at all; the last time was in the 1970s. Sweden issued a similar list a few months ago; it was the first time for them since WW2. Interesting. Do they know something we don't?

---

The next item on my list is to start looking into a solar panel solution for a limited number of appliances like light and recharging of electronic appliances. I have no experience with this type of gear whatsoever and would like to hear what others have managed in this area so far.

[Love And Submission]

I don't understand survivalism or wanting to live through doomsday. Life is great.  It's fun but it's fun and enjoyable because of all the amenities that I have right now. If after the apocalypse, I have to live like a 1400s British peasant  I'd rather just die.

What is there to live for after the apocalypse? Most of my reasons for living would not exist in a post-apocalyptic world so why should I go through the effort of trying to survive? It just seems futile to me.

I guess if you had kids, It'd be different but I have no interest in rebuilding society myself. That seems like a monumentally difficult task with very little upside.

I like backpacking and working with my hands but if that was necessary for my survival, I'd be fine with giving up.

Eating out of tin cans and distilling rainwater just seems really tedious and deeply unpleasant.