Fifty Shades of Gray

[la dame en noir]

At the same time though, I would note that there is a kink-shaming element to the criticism. Let's remember, 50 Shades wasn't conceived or written as a "how to" guide for BDSM or as an accurate depiction of the lifestyle. It's EL James' fantasy, originally written as Twilight fan-fiction and posted on fan-fiction sites before the content required it to be posted elsewhere. When we say it's depicting a harmful relationship we're right... but how many stories on E also depict harmful, abusive relationships? One should always remember that despite the success, despite the billboard adverts and despite the film we're still discussing EL James' fantasy, something she originally started writing not for profit but because she enjoyed and fantasised about it. If we want to condemn her for having those fantasies we also have to condemn everyone on E who has similar ones.

This right here means everything

[Valthazar]

If we want to condemn her for having those fantasies we also have to condemn everyone on E who has similar ones.

Can we judge the same people who desire to roleplay things such as an abuse controlling relationship?

+1

I think expressing anger and hostility towards 50 Shades rather ironic, given that I'm sure most of us would be supportive if a member here wanted to publish an NC, abusive romance story involving a vulnerable female character.  People would be quick to point out that it's "just a fantasy" and perfectly healthy to read as such.  As such, I don't see why E. L. James has any obligation to portray only healthy D/s and BDSM relationships in her stories.

[deadmanshand]

And once again the logical fallacy comes up of comparing stories written on a members only website between adults to a mainstream book/movie series that anyone has access to. The argument is flawed. Writing something for personal entertainment is fine. If EL James had kept it as such their would be no issue but the moment it is marketed to the masses as a "bdsm romance" it becomes a different beast alltogether. At that point you are projecting an image for the world to see and personal respinsibility becomes a factor. Glorifying abuse and calling it love in such a cultural wide venue is irresponsible and objectionable. Doing that in a private story on a members only website is a shrug. We all understand the context. The average fan will not. Worlds of difference.

[consortium11]

So I assume we're all ready to condemn the authors on Literotica, BDSMLibrary, Lushstories, MCStories, Understories, Boundstories etc etc who write stories that include abuse? After all, those websites don't even have the figleaf of membership requirements that E has... anyone can visit them. And unlike having to buy 50 Shades of Grey, those websites are all free to access so even less restricted.

Edit: Just to add, are we also meant to exclude the fact that 50 Shades explicitly tells people that it's not meant to be realistic and any resemblance to reality is merely a coincidence:

This is a work of fiction. Names, characters, businesses, places, events and incidents are either the products of the author’s imagination or used in a fictitious manner. Any resemblance to actual persons, living or dead, or actual events is purely coincidental.

[Valthazar]

And once again the logical fallacy comes up of comparing stories written on a members only website between adults to a mainstream book/movie series that anyone has access to. The argument is flawed. Writing something for personal entertainment is fine. If EL James had kept it as such their would be no issue but the moment it is marketed to the masses as a "bdsm romance" it becomes a different beast alltogether.

To clarify, I was referring to a situation where an E member chooses to actually publish an abuse-themed story in print.  I would wager to bet that most members of E would be very supportive of this individual's work, because from my understanding of the culture here, having deviant sexual fantasies is celebrated as perfectly healthy (yes, including abuse) - so long as it doesn't manifest into physical action.  And from other threads on the subject, the consensus seems to be that a sexual fantasy writer should never be "blamed" because a sick individual reading the story chose to engage in that illegal act in real life. 

It is also worth noting that 50 Shades is only receiving such vitriol because of its success - though it is by no means the only fictional story to explore manipulation and abuse within the context of a "love" story.  I just randomly searched Amazon for the first questionable book I could find.  Would you criticize this book about a mother/son incest, for its unhealthy depiction of parent/child interactions?

[deadmanshand]

Wow... you've never met a logical fallacy you didn't like did you? Once again it's all about context and personal responsibility. If you go Literotica or the Kristen Archives or any such thing you are doing so knowing what you are getting into. The websites have warnings and the stories have descriptors telling what is in them. There is no misinformation or misrepresentation to it. They are what they are and by the time you read a story there you know what you are getting into.

This, allow me to prove once again, is not the same as mass marketing something as a romantic ideal and delivering an abusive relationship in glorified manner. Writing such a thing here or on one of those sites is just a matter of catharsis. Writing such a thing and then misrepresenting itself to everyone as something it most certainly is not just a matter of catharsis. You are putting it in a mass setting where people are not aware of the context and may touch on very sensitive issues for them will see it believing it to be something it's not.

The issue is not the nature of the content but the context of it. It is dishonest about it's nature. It does not give an opportunity for informed consent to the nature of the experience of the story. It misleads, misrepresents, and falsifies. It glorifies what should never be glorified to the public and calls it romance.

And I am now done arguing with people about this fucking book because I did not make this thread to argue for or against it's merits. Frankly I am upset that people have chosen to use it as such rather than making their own thread to put up their strawman arguments or play devil's advocate. I do not like discussing the book series. I made the original post as a reaction - a vindication if you will - after long years of being forced to have arguments about the book series with people who cannot simply accept the fact that I find them to be tasteless trash. I figured that here of all places I might be able to make a comment on it without someone rushing to defend it. A single lighthearted comment made in a moment of satisfaction leading to multiple  pointless arguments over a trashy piece of romance novel drivel that I will only remember in ten years because of how badly it's fans have pissed me off. So thank you for that.

And no I did not react to the arguments based off of my "hatred" for the books. I did so out of my hatred for logical fallacies. It was intellectual offense. I'm done with this thread. Thanks for taking what should have been a lighthearted thread while I am going through a very stressful time in my life and turning it into a revolving door of arguments and frustration.

[Avis habilis]

Wow... you've never met a logical fallacy you didn't like did you?

Apparently we have to spell this out again: no ad hominem attacks, not from anybody, not for any excuse.

Knock it off.

[deadmanshand]

I'm already done.

[Beguile's Mistress]

I met a friend for coffee after work last night and we overheard a conversation between two older women in the coffee shop who compared "50 Shades..." to "Peyton Place" back in the day.  That was considered the most scandalous book of its time when it came out in the mid-1950s.  One woman said her mother had brought it home and hid it from her father.  He found it and there as a tremendous row over her reading it.  The woman's older sister found it when she was in high school and she and the mom fought about it but then settled down and discussed some of what happened in the book.  Some time in the 80s the woman read it and wondered what all the fuss was about.

Now I want to find the book and read it and I'd love it if someone taking a degree in literature would use the two books for their Master's thesis. 

BTW - Here is a link to a fairly objective review I found of the movie with some comparisons to the book.

[Deamonbane]

Anyone else feel a (probably) unintentional link between Christian Grey and Patrick Bateman?(American Psycho) That was the first thing that I thought when I was five chapters in. Although Christian Bale sold it better.

[RedPhoenix]

Anyone else feel a (probably) unintentional link between Christian Grey and Patrick Bateman?(American Psycho) That was the first thing that I thought when I was five chapters in. Although Christian Bale sold it better.

They're basically the same person based on the same idea of what rich people can do so it's not hard to see.

[Deamonbane]

I kept getting the feeling that he would leave Steele alone for a few minutes and come in screaming, butt-nekkid and wielding a chain saw...

[Inkidu]

My main problem isn't the portrayal of the BDSM community and whatnot. I'm just not in the scene to really judge. I've only heard what those in the scene think of it.

Again, my main problem is that it is by all accounts across multiple spectra of criticism it's regarded as a poorly written work with few redeeming qualities. Not even taking into account that it's smut. Though I think it's the first time I can remember "erotica" being on the NYTBSL, let alone the top of it. Hey, if someone can write the seminal erotica work that's fine, but this book shouldn't be 50 Shades.

It really upsets the writer in me who while doesn't exactly "suffer" over his art but really just gives a damn that something like this can sell millions of copies. It's enough to make me go all Fahrenheit 451 on all the things.

I mean there's the if-Twilight-can-get-published joke, but at least that was fruit born of an author's mind (as much as can be said for any work), but Fifty Shades is a poorly written fan-fic where she just filed the serial numbers off. It just lacks care and drive, but the world holds it up as blaring masterpiece, and it's not even good enough to be a Harlequin romance!

*Pants*

[Deamonbane]

My main problem isn't the portrayal of the BDSM community and whatnot. I'm just not in the scene to really judge. I've only heard what those in the scene think of it.

Again, my main problem is that it is by all accounts across multiple spectra of criticism it's regarded as a poorly written work with few redeeming qualities. Not even taking into account that it's smut. Though I think it's the first time I can remember "erotica" being on the NYTBSL, let alone the top of it. Hey, if someone can write the seminal erotica work that's fine, but this book shouldn't be 50 Shades.

It really upsets the writer in me who while doesn't exactly "suffer" over his art but really just gives a damn that something like this can sell millions of copies. It's enough to make me go all Fahrenheit 451 on all the things.

I mean there's the if-Twilight-can-get-published joke, but at least that was fruit born of an author's mind (as much as can be said for any work), but Fifty Shades is a poorly written fan-fic where she just filed the serial numbers off. It just lacks care and drive, but the world holds it up as blaring masterpiece, and it's not even good enough to be a Harlequin romance!

*Pants*

+10000

[Beguile's Mistress]

The operative word for the NYTBSL is seller.  You get on the list when your book sells more copies this month than anyone else on the list.  Word of mouth goes a long way to promote those books quite often as does the name of the author.  I usually only look at the list to get a feel for what everyone else is reading because that is what they are going to be talking about.

[Inkidu]

The operative word for the NYTBSL is seller.  You get on the list when your book sells more copies this month than anyone else on the list.  Word of mouth goes a long way to promote those books quite often as does the name of the author.  I usually only look at the list to get a feel for what everyone else is reading because that is what they are going to be talking about.

My point being it says something very soul-crushing about the state of readership in today's world. :(

Then you see really good, accessible, hell just even good entertaining books you can't give away. :|

[Beguile's Mistress]

*nods*  Electronic media is responsible, in part, for a lot of that and online book sellers.  It's made reading easier and less expensive for many but the quality of the books is diminishing.  Then again, so is the quality of the writing.  It's a vicious circle.

[RedPhoenix]

My point being it says something very soul-crushing about the state of readership in today's world. :(

Then you see really good, accessible, hell just even good entertaining books you can't give away. :|

Probably the same way most musicians feel when they turn on the radio.

[Cycle]

To consortium11, la dame en noir, and Valthazar:

I don't think you can compare 50SoG in its current incarnation with a rape-abuse RP written on E.  There are at least four key differences:

• Because of the screening process, the average E member very likely has a far better understanding of bondage, D/s, and the distinction between reality and fantasy than the average general public. 
  
  
• RPs written on E are generally intended for a single reader (your partner) or a small group of readers (for group games).  Yes, other E members can read them, but in an RP, they are not the target audience.  And odds are, that audience knows what you are writing together is a fantasy, and enjoys said fantasy with a proper frame of mind.
  
  
• E contains explicit disclaimers that far more clear than routine, standard canned "this is fictional" copy paste jobs you see on mass marketed books.  Float your mouse over any heading.  You'll get a warning of what kinds of stories are in that group.  You're not going to see a sticker on the cover page of 50SoG that says:  "This book depicts an abusive rape relationship that is not healthy," "Please do not emulate what you read in this book," or "If anyone treats you like Grey does in this book, call 911 immediately."
  
  
• E is moderated.  If you try to write an abusive-rape story in Light, one of the Staff will surely PM you with a reminder/warning, and move your story out of that area.  In other words, you can't sell an abusive-rape relationship as romance on E and get away with it.

Simply put, RPs written on E have to state what they are far more clearly, and read by a more sophisticated--and less vulnerable, less easily mislead--population, than a book sold by Amazon.  Trying to use E's RPs as a defense of 50SoG is, in my opinion, a flawed approach.

The author of 50SoG, and the marketing forces working with her/taking advantage of her/riding her coattails, clearly want the abusive relationship to be perceived as romance.  Sure, they'll say the right things on TV during interviews.  But their intent is revealed by their actions.  Hence my disdain for this book and what it has now evolved into.

[Bloodied Porcelain]

To consortium11, la dame en noir, and Valthazar:

I don't think you can compare 50SoG in its current incarnation with a rape-abuse RP written on E.  There are at least four key differences:

• Because of the screening process, the average E member very likely has a far better understanding of bondage, D/s, and the distinction between reality and fantasy than the average general public. 
  
  
• RPs written on E are generally intended for a single reader (your partner) or a small group of readers (for group games).  Yes, other E members can read them, but in an RP, they are not the target audience.  And odds are, that audience knows what you are writing together is a fantasy, and enjoys said fantasy with a proper frame of mind.
  
  
• E contains explicit disclaimers that far more clear than routine, standard canned "this is fictional" copy paste jobs you see on mass marketed books.  Float your mouse over any heading.  You'll get a warning of what kinds of stories are in that group.  You're not going to see a sticker on the cover page of 50SoG that says:  "This book depicts an abusive rape relationship that is not healthy," "Please do not emulate what you read in this book," or "If anyone treats you like Grey does in this book, call 911 immediately."
  
  
• E is moderated.  If you try to write an abusive-rape story in Light, one of the Staff will surely PM you with a reminder/warning, and move your story out of that area.  In other words, you can't sell an abusive-rape relationship as romance on E and get away with it.

Simply put, RPs written on E have to state what they are far more clearly, and read by a more sophisticated--and less vulnerable, less easily mislead--population, than a book sold by Amazon.  Trying to use E's RPs as a defense of 50SoG is, in my opinion, a flawed approach.

The author of 50SoG, and the marketing forces working with her/taking advantage of her/riding her coattails, clearly want the abusive relationship to be perceived as romance.  Sure, they'll say the right things on TV during interviews.  But their intent is revealed by their actions.  Hence my disdain for this book and what it has now evolved into.

^^^^ All of this ^^^^

Even my individual threads tend to come with disclaimers specific to the story, basically pointing out that what is being depicted is (and is meant to be) abuse, that I do not advocate for it, etc etc.

Also, since the release of the god-awful first book, I've met more weak-minded would-be subs/slaves who are trying to get in to the lifestyle and are taking 50SoG as the gospel on what they should be looking for. I had one woman who had only been involved in the lifestyle for about five or six months and whom was in an abusive relationship (something I pulled her aside to try to talk to her about by asking if she was sure she was okay and if she needed help... I've been there, no one should be facing that alone) who told me that I was the "wrong" one because I thought she had a right and a duty to stand up for herself when he took things too far.

Two months later, she was out of the lifestyle, swearing we were all "fucked up freaks" and claiming that BDSM is really just dressed-up rape because he'd finally pushed her too far. She nearly tore apart more than one circle of friends in the local community over the entire thing, claiming that most of the subs and slaves she was friends with pushed her to stay with him while he was hurting her, when more than one of us tried to convince her to leave him and find someone worthy of her submission.

I've seen more subs (men and women, but mostly women) enter the lifestyle thinking that they want what is in these books. They're wrong. They don't want it. They're deluded because the book describes it as a good thing and a "right" thing and it's just plain not when you're living something even remotely similar. Christian Grey is NOT the perfect man. He's not even the perfect Master or Dom. He's the exact fucking opposite and the fact that this trilogy is out there scares the hell out of me, because my head spins with the number of well-meaning fools who try to use the book's example to build their relationships (and heaven forbid their marriages) around. The number of victims of sexual and domestic abuse the books could be creating is terrifying. Imagine a girl just out of high school with limited to no sexual experience getting hold of this and deciding that she wants a boyfriend like Christian.

Or hell, beyond that imagine someone who already has a chip on their shoulder about anything outside of vanilla sex getting hold of the book and using it to further vilify those in the lifestyle who already deal with social stigma and judgment from those around us who find out. It's bothersome enough that I have to hide the fact that I'm a submissive woman when I'm living my day-to-day. Not because I want to be lead around on a leash in public, but because anyone who looks at me and sees me allowing my partner to make the decisions and deferring to His/Her judgment or calling Him/Her Sir or Ma'am looks down their nose at me and thinks of me as "lesser" because I'm not some ice-queen powerful woman who does anything and everything for myself and is take-no-prisoners. Now I not only get to feel self conscious over how I express my love and trust of my partner in simple ways, I get to worry about whether or not someone is going to wave this trash in my face and call me Anastasia, accuse me of perpetuating harm against women, etc etc.

[Mithlomwen]

My main problem isn't the portrayal of the BDSM community and whatnot. I'm just not in the scene to really judge. I've only heard what those in the scene think of it.

Again, my main problem is that it is by all accounts across multiple spectra of criticism it's regarded as a poorly written work with few redeeming qualities. Not even taking into account that it's smut. Though I think it's the first time I can remember "erotica" being on the NYTBSL, let alone the top of it. Hey, if someone can write the seminal erotica work that's fine, but this book shouldn't be 50 Shades.

It really upsets the writer in me who while doesn't exactly "suffer" over his art but really just gives a damn that something like this can sell millions of copies. It's enough to make me go all Fahrenheit 451 on all the things.

I mean there's the if-Twilight-can-get-published joke, but at least that was fruit born of an author's mind (as much as can be said for any work), but Fifty Shades is a poorly written fan-fic where she just filed the serial numbers off. It just lacks care and drive, but the world holds it up as blaring masterpiece, and it's not even good enough to be a Harlequin romance!

*Pants*

This.  This.....thisthisthis.

Also....

Yes to what both Cycle and Bloodied Porcelain said. 

[Iniquitous]

I kept getting the feeling that he would leave Steele alone for a few minutes and come in screaming, butt-nekkid and wielding a chain saw...

I will learn not to drink and read at the same time. Oh my gods this made me laugh. And honestly - if he had done this it would have been a much better book!

[Beguile's Mistress]

Having worked with a therapist during a crisis period in my own life and assisted her with role playing for her D/s couples sessions after she saw me through to being healed I'd like to say there is very little on Elliquiy that is objectively representative of real life BDSM.  First remove everything that draws blood or leaves a permanent mark.  Remove role playing sessions in the story that go beyond a limited amount of time and remove all coercive influences to create fear as a motivating factor.  Most assuredly, removed all stories where no safe word is discussed and obeyed and you have very little left.  To think anything outside the box is less than fantasy teaches the wrong lesson. 

Both D/s and BDSM structured scenarios are designed to promote trust in the Dom on the part of the submissive.  Boundaries can be tested and pushed, of course.  Fear should only enter into things when the submissive wishes to stretch those boundaries with the assistance of their Dom and mutual respect of each other and their wishes is necessary.  People who harbor destructive or self-destructive tendencies need to be very careful of these relationships.

[Valthazar]

Because of the screening process, the average E member very likely has a far better understanding of bondage, D/s, and the distinction between reality and fantasy than the average general public.

I don't think this is accurate.  As far as I know, there is no screening process ensures that the average E member has a better understanding of D/s or bondage compared to the average public (other than being asked to obey the E rules, of course)

As someone who actually does explore D/s in romance stories, it's almost painful to read what passes for dominance at times on E.  A lot of writers exploring romance with dominance often completely disregard the emotional angle of D/s.  You'd be surprised how many so-called "Doms" on E think a few slaps on the ass suddenly give them permission to 'boss around' the female character in a roleplay.  And sadly, many subs come to think this is the norm.

[Cycle]

(other than being asked to obey the E rules, of course)

Bingo.