Legend of the Five Rings Discussion

[BraveEarth]

The Scorpion have held the incompetence ball a lot. Kolat, need I say more? Honestly though my knowledge is 4e based so the 1e Could be vastly more skewed.

Side Note. More Ponies For the Wall is a great Shadowlands game title.

[Chris Brady]

We do not speak of the stupidity that was the Kolat.  Ever.

[kckolbe]

The fact that the Scorpion leader in the Kolat wasn't "punished" always struck me as odd, by the way. 

[Empyrean]

As I understand it, the Kolat and the Bloodspeakers have been destroyed by the present, right?

[Renegade Vile]

As I understand it, the Kolat and the Bloodspeakers have been destroyed by the present, right?

If I recall correctly, the Kolat have, but the Bloodspeakers are represented by the Chuda family that, for reasons I don't know, separated themselves from the spider after a schism and the death of Chuda Mishime. Too bad, since I always liked Mishime, oh well.
There are also still plenty of unaligned Bloodspeakers and minor cults dotting Rokugan and beyond, but their presence is noticeably less strong than before.

Also, anyone know if characters like Kayomasa and... damn, I forgot his name, that pitiful mutant that was always Daigotsu's friend? Omoni? Oh, and Katsu? Basically, where are all the old Shadowlands/Spider characters I knew and loved?

[Chris Brady]

Also, anyone know if characters like Kayomasa and... damn, I forgot his name, that pitiful mutant that was always Daigotsu's friend? Omoni? Oh, and Katsu? Basically, where are all the old Shadowlands/Spider characters I knew and loved?

Sadly, I believe they are dead, because the most important audience, the Card Gamers, hated the clan.

[Renegade Vile]

Sadly, I believe they are dead, because the most important audience, the Card Gamers, hated the clan.

I would assume they are, since they're never mentioned, but it's actually never stated explicitely, at least not to my knowledge. And I was part of Shinden Fu Leng for quite some time and I never remember anyone hating Omoni, Kayomasa and Katsu; in fact, they were some of the more popular ones fluff-wise.

[HairyHeretic]

I never quite understood the Spider getting accepted as a clan, but my RPGing was pre Scorpion coup times, and I never played much of the CCG.

[Renegade Vile]

If you look at it from a fluff point of view, it does make sense, as Daigotsu was their very last hope of survival. And his terms were clear and absolute. The empress could not go back on her word without utterly disgracing herself and the Spider have been relatively well behaved up to this point. Also, anyone with the taint is turned into a Conqueror and sent to the colonies (well, everyone the Spider is willing to reveal, anyway, as most Dark Paragons are actually in Rokugan, but that's no different than before). The Taint itself has been turned into something "voluntary" by Daigotsu as he is now the new dark god. He ascended to take Fu Leng's place when the latter was killed by Kali Ma. It's still more or less all part of Daigotsu's plans, as he's even making Dark Fortunes and essentially making his original dream come true of an antithesis of Rokugan, only in a different way than he originally intended to. The public face of the Spider are their 10 or so courtiers from that new family they have (I forgot the name) and their monks, who have a rivalry with the Dragon that has yet to really turn into a big problem for either faction. As for the Taint being voluntary, people still hear the alluring whispers and the seductive nature of the power granted by it is still there, but you must willingly give yourself up to it (or under the strain of torture, as some Bloodspeakers have been doing to get a few Tainted minions).

It's very different from before, but I actually liked this resolution since I was hoping for one that didn't end up having every character I like brutally slaughtered. And it was a fitting end to Daigotsu's ambitions without him being utterly defeated. It wasn't quite what he wanted, but he saw his chance and took it. I just wish they had handled the transition period more clearly. More fictions were required to bridge the gap as there are too many important Spider characters who have just vanished. As the above posts states, we can likely assume they're dead, but how? These aren't just run-of-the-mill characters. Katsu has been around as long as Daigotsu has and has been almost as important to the Shadowlands' goals. The same applies to Chuda Mishime. It has been implied that he in fact remained loyal to the Spider until his death and it was his successor that caused the schism, but nothing is ever confirmed clearly. As for Omoni, there's no word on him at all, and that was a character that definitely needed some kind of end. The poor guy was so pitiable that he deserved either a confirmed death of sorts, or some kind of salvation and as far as I know, he has received neither.

The only important Spider to receive a more or less confirmed end is Michio, who apparently vanished and may have died in a glorious duel with a Fortune, whom he beat. Of course, this was told by Tetsuo, his successor as Grandmaster of the order of the Spider, to inspire a young student. He also stated there was but one witness, a blind old man, so who knows what truly happened, but considering the sometimes grandiose nature of the setting, it can be taken to be true that he did just leave on a last travel around Rokugan before dying in a duel or something along those lines. It's hard to imagine that guy getting beaten, however, since he was portrayed a bit over-powered (primarily due to his popularity, even outside the Spider clan).

[HairyHeretic]

The main problem is that I didn't keep up that much with the overall story changes after the Scorpion coup and Second Day of Thunder. There just seemed too much going on, and a lot of it seemed to make little sense in places, so the idea of the Spider as a 'loyal' clan didn't seem to make much sense. I still haven't got the full scope of the changes from then til the current Age of Exploration, bar the really massive events.

[Renegade Vile]

You can turn those '' around loyal into gigantic ones, as it's been heavily implied since the start that they still want to see everything burn, but they needed to change their approach.
But indeed, a lot of fiction to cover, and for almost a year now, I've stopped following it as well. The hobby is too expensive and because of the power players, the story always stops making sense after a while.

[kckolbe]

The main problem is that I didn't keep up that much with the overall story changes after the Scorpion coup and Second Day of Thunder. There just seemed too much going on, and a lot of it seemed to make little sense in places, so the idea of the Spider as a 'loyal' clan didn't seem to make much sense. I still haven't got the full scope of the changes from then til the current Age of Exploration, bar the really massive events.

It makes me feel a lot better to hear you say this, since I feel the same way (though I generally say after 1158, but damn similar). 

[HairyHeretic]

I suppose this is the problem they run into in letting the results of the CCG tournaments drive the story. Some odd deck build wins, and you have to write it up so it makes a vague kind of sense ... maybe.

At the end of the day, it doesn't really matter. I can always choose to play the RPG set pre Scorpion coup, or tinker with the timeline myself (if I wanted to do a lot more work) to remove the stuff I felt didn't fit.

[Chris Brady]

I suppose this is the problem they run into in letting the results of the CCG tournaments drive the story. Some odd deck build wins, and you have to write it up so it makes a vague kind of sense ... maybe.

At the end of the day, it doesn't really matter. I can always choose to play the RPG set pre Scorpion coup, or tinker with the timeline myself (if I wanted to do a lot more work) to remove the stuff I felt didn't fit.

Exactly my complaint.  A lot of players will mouth that they're doing it for lore, and some are, but the ones who win?  At least the honest ones don't care, they just want the next set of cards.

[Pumpkin Seeds]

Thus far I have had an idea regarding the creation of the Emerald Magistrates in the year 153 by Doji Hatsuo.  I like the idea of the Magistrates as they are just being granted powers, sort of this new sheriff in town that has to earn respect.  Can see they would have a hard time getting cooperation from many nobles despite having the Emperor's favor.  Just seems a subject that can have a bit of seriousness and perhaps comedy to it.

Anyway, this would be a long time down the road but did want to get people's general consensus on this idea and time period.

[kckolbe]

Some noteworthy things I do know/think:

- The Unicorn are gone (This means the Kaeru self govern.  Yay for Kaeru fans!)
- The Taint has just been discovered within the last half-century, not much is known about it even within the Crab, probably more superstitious tales elsewhere.
- Only 2 official Minor Clans exist (plus the unrecognized-though accepted by Crab-Mantis)
- Everything regarding bushido is still kind of being written

[BraveEarth]

Yasuki are still with the Crane, no Shugenja for the Crane either.

[Pumpkin Seeds]

I believe the Doji had a shugenja school before the Asahina came along.  I think I remember seeing stats for it somewhere.

[BraveEarth]

I would be surprised, plus I've been searching for any sign of this and I can't find any, The Crane were all about Lady Doji setting the standards for everything, so they were hardly weak, just not as rounded.

[kckolbe]

I imagine shugenja schools would be quite rare.  Obviously Isawa had one, and I would expect Kuni as well.  Kitsu would be interesting, as I imagine most of them still have significant levels of kitsu blood.  I imagine the Dragon didn't have proper schools for anything at that point (but nothing to back that up).  Mantis and Scorpion seem somewhat unlikely as well.   

[Chris Brady]

Actually, the Dragon would have the most structured schools, including a Monk school.  Togashi was around, and had his subtle hand in everything with his clan.

[kckolbe]

The reason I said that about Dragon is that schools were the first major example of specialization, which Dragon oppose.

[BraveEarth]

Mantis do have one after all Kaimestu Uo's Daughter was said to be the founder of what will become the Yoritomo Shugenja school. Also Chris is right the Agasha Family was founded really early and Agasha was accepting students.

[Chris Brady]

The reason I said that about Dragon is that schools were the first major example of specialization, which Dragon oppose.

The Dragon don't oppose discipline.  They embrace it.

[kckolbe]

I never said they oppose discipline.  I said they oppose specialization.  There is a huge difference.