The Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School Shooting

Started by Regina Minx, February 15, 2018, 06:39:19 AM

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SweetSerenade

Quote from: Lustful Bride on February 24, 2018, 11:27:13 AM
Hmm...I think I could like that more. It seems more reasonable and I feel that a less lethal option also removes some of the risk of dangers in class.

On top of that teaching someone to properly use a taser, and arming them with them, is a less costly option on already stressed school budgets. It's also something that will not cause as much damage as a gun - if one of the students manages to get a hold of it.  (Which was one of the reasons I felt arming teachers was a bad idea, what's to stop a kid from stealing the teachers gun?)

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Oniya

Quote from: Lustful Bride on February 24, 2018, 11:27:13 AM
Hmm...I think I could like that more. It seems more reasonable and I feel that a less lethal option also removes some of the risk of dangers in class.

In the wake of some other shooting incident, someone posted that a simple fire extinguisher would make a good defense weapon.  Non-lethal, probably already in place (or should be), and most people know how to use it:  Pull the pin, point it at the intruder and spray.  You have blinding foam, possibly with a refrigerant action, and the sudden instinctive reactions to 'can't see, can't breathe'.  Plus, the empty canister can then be used to bonk the now-distracted intruder.
"Language was invented for one reason, boys - to woo women.~*~*~Don't think it's all been done before
And in that endeavor, laziness will not do." ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think we're never gonna win this war
Robin Williams-Dead Poets Society ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think your world's gonna fall apart
I do have a cause, though.  It's obscenity.  I'm for it.  - Tom Lehrer~*~All you need is your beautiful heart
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Lustful Bride

Quote from: Oniya on February 24, 2018, 01:09:04 PM
In the wake of some other shooting incident, someone posted that a simple fire extinguisher would make a good defense weapon.  Non-lethal, probably already in place (or should be), and most people know how to use it:  Pull the pin, point it at the intruder and spray.  You have blinding foam, possibly with a refrigerant action, and the sudden instinctive reactions to 'can't see, can't breathe'.  Plus, the empty canister can then be used to bonk the now-distracted intruder.

Indeed. But problem is that both have a limited range.

TheGlyphstone

Quote from: Lustful Bride on February 24, 2018, 01:19:01 PM
Indeed. But problem is that both have a limited range.

How much range do you need inside a school, though? A Taser is effective out to 30-35 feet, a fire extinguisher will probably get to 20ft with the chemical foam. That's long enough for most purposes when you're dealing with corridors and classrooms.

Lustful Bride

Quote from: TheGlyphstone on February 24, 2018, 01:23:47 PM
How much range do you need inside a school, though? A Taser is effective out to 30-35 feet, a fire extinguisher will probably get to 20ft with the chemical foam. That's long enough for most purposes when you're dealing with corridors and classrooms.

Point taken. *nods* I rescind my previous statement :P

Mithlomwen

Quote from: SweetSerenade on February 24, 2018, 11:34:14 AM
(Which was one of the reasons I felt arming teachers was a bad idea, what's to stop a kid from stealing the teachers gun?)

If it is a concealed carry, no one but the teacher and the school board will even know the teacher is carrying. 

Here are a couple of articles from schools who already have armed teachers. 

http://www.koaa.com/story/37573467/14-months-later-how-hanover-schools-say-armed-teachers-are-working-for-them

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/what-its-like-for-one-teacher-who-already-carries-a-gun/
Baby, it's all I know,
that your half of the flesh and blood that makes me whole...

SweetSerenade

Quote from: Mithlomwen on February 24, 2018, 01:32:35 PM
If it is a concealed carry, no one but the teacher and the school board will even know the teacher is carrying. 

Here are a couple of articles from schools who already have armed teachers. 

http://www.koaa.com/story/37573467/14-months-later-how-hanover-schools-say-armed-teachers-are-working-for-them

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/what-its-like-for-one-teacher-who-already-carries-a-gun/

I was talking about in the instance it became a 'standard issue' of a starting teacher's kit (IE like was mentioned by someone here - I think - and what a lot of people on Social Media are demanding). In the instance it became known that teacher's would be taught and armed to defend the students, wouldn't that mean it would become pretty easy knowledge to get access to?

Bakemono Shiki RP(Lovely Siggy Layout is thanks to Amaris)

Mithlomwen

Quote from: SweetSerenade on February 24, 2018, 01:35:47 PM
In the instance it became known that teacher's would be taught and armed to defend the students, wouldn't that mean it would become pretty easy knowledge to get access to?

Not necessarily.  If that happened, I would imagine that there would be hefty safeguards  put into place to avoid that sort of situation. 

(Apologies if I misread what you were asking)
Baby, it's all I know,
that your half of the flesh and blood that makes me whole...

SweetSerenade

No, you basically understood what I was getting at. I just tend to go to the 'worst case' scenario and build from there to try to pick apart what could be adjusted so that things could be safer. xD Defensive Pessimist.

Bakemono Shiki RP(Lovely Siggy Layout is thanks to Amaris)

Mithlomwen

Quote from: SweetSerenade on February 24, 2018, 01:48:20 PM
No, you basically understood what I was getting at. I just tend to go to the 'worst case' scenario and build from there to try to pick apart what could be adjusted so that things could be safer. xD Defensive Pessimist.

Ah okay! I gotcha! :-)
Baby, it's all I know,
that your half of the flesh and blood that makes me whole...

Oniya

Quote from: TheGlyphstone on February 24, 2018, 01:23:47 PM
How much range do you need inside a school, though? A Taser is effective out to 30-35 feet, a fire extinguisher will probably get to 20ft with the chemical foam. That's long enough for most purposes when you're dealing with corridors and classrooms.

I should have been more clear - this would be something for 'classroom defense'.  Students are hiding, one person is covering the door.  If the shooter breaks in, face full of foam.  Most people's reaction to getting something in the eyes is to try to wipe it away (especially if it stings), which is going to take the hands out of firing position, unless we're talking about a handgun (which seems to be low on the list of preferred weapons).  Even then, shooting a handgun without the stabilization of another hand on the grip is more 'old Western' than 'Call of Duty'.  Depending on how the door swings, the person covering the door could hit from a 90 degree angle and not be seen through the little window (= total surprise) from a distance of under 10 feet.

Other benefits this would have is that there would be the sense of 'someone is able to do something' (as opposed to the 'helpless cowering') and a person with a fire extinguisher is unlikely to be mistaken for the attacker when law enforcement does show up.
"Language was invented for one reason, boys - to woo women.~*~*~Don't think it's all been done before
And in that endeavor, laziness will not do." ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think we're never gonna win this war
Robin Williams-Dead Poets Society ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think your world's gonna fall apart
I do have a cause, though.  It's obscenity.  I'm for it.  - Tom Lehrer~*~All you need is your beautiful heart
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TheGlyphstone

Quote from: Oniya on February 24, 2018, 01:52:51 PM
I should have been more clear - this would be something for 'classroom defense'.  Students are hiding, one person is covering the door.  If the shooter breaks in, face full of foam.  Most people's reaction to getting something in the eyes is to try to wipe it away (especially if it stings), which is going to take the hands out of firing position, unless we're talking about a handgun (which seems to be low on the list of preferred weapons).  Even then, shooting a handgun without the stabilization of another hand on the grip is more 'old Western' than 'Call of Duty'.  Depending on how the door swings, the person covering the door could hit from a 90 degree angle and not be seen through the little window (= total surprise) from a distance of under 10 feet.

Other benefits this would have is that there would be the sense of 'someone is able to do something' (as opposed to the 'helpless cowering') and a person with a fire extinguisher is unlikely to be mistaken for the attacker when law enforcement does show up.

Yeah, that was what I was thinking too.

Sebile

Quote from: HairyHeretic on February 24, 2018, 11:24:53 AM

On the subject of armed teachers, I saw a post on facebook yesterday along the lines of "Would you want to be a (young) black teacher with a gun when the police arrive?"

It makes me think of what happened to Philando Castile.



Also, I believe that the tasers that reach 30 ft are police-grade, the ones that non-law enforcement can purchase have a range of 15 ft. The fire extinguisher sounds like a better idea.

TheGlyphstone

Though I'd presume if 'arming teachers' became policy, they could be given the police-grade version. The fire extinguisher has an advantage in that it's probably a lot easier to aim, just point and spray a cone. Tasers need to hit dead-on for full effectiveness, and could be blocked by a thick coat or clothing.

Oniya

Also, even if the shooter thinks far enough ahead to bring eye protection, there's still the fact that white foam is hard to see through.
"Language was invented for one reason, boys - to woo women.~*~*~Don't think it's all been done before
And in that endeavor, laziness will not do." ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think we're never gonna win this war
Robin Williams-Dead Poets Society ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think your world's gonna fall apart
I do have a cause, though.  It's obscenity.  I'm for it.  - Tom Lehrer~*~All you need is your beautiful heart
O/O's Updated 5/11/21 - A/A's - Current Status! - Writing a novel - all draws for Fool of Fire up!
Requests updated March 17

Ket

What isn't being taken into account here when discussing possible weapons to arm teachers with is that even the most highly trained personnel are scared shitless in an armed combatant situation. You expect a teacher to remain calm enough to aim and fire a weapon while facing down a gunman?

Not going to happen.


Edited to add a question mark to my second sentence.
she wears strength and darkness equally well, the girl has always been half goddess, half hell

you can find me on discord Ket#8117
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wee little Ketlings don't yet have the ability to spit forth flame with the ferocity needed to vanquish a horde of vehicular bound tiny arachnids.

Mithlomwen

Quote from: Ket on February 24, 2018, 02:51:52 PM
You expect a teacher to remain calm enough to aim and fire a weapon while facing down a gunman?

Not going to happen.


But, how do you know that? 

I don't think you are giving teachers enough credit.  There are some really awesome people out there.  Each person reacts differently in any given situation.  What makes a person run into a burning building to save people when other people run out?  What makes a person run into danger to help save people when other people aren't able to? 

When the church shooting happened in TX, there were two civilians who not only shot at the man, but chased him down in their vehicle, ignoring the fact that they were putting their own lives in danger. 

I think there are probably a lot of teachers out there who could and more importantly would face the danger of an active shooting situation if it meant saving students' lives. 
Baby, it's all I know,
that your half of the flesh and blood that makes me whole...

Ket

Because four highly trained officers did not go inside the high school on February 14th. source  source

Because two highly trained veterans, one a sniper, still weren't able to stop an armed person from killing them...while they were armed themselves. source

Because facing down someone armed with any sort of weapon is a terrifying experience. No matter how brave you are. No matter how much it is in your personality to rush into the face of danger. And the majority of people are not the type to stand up and face an attacker. Asking our teachers to have to try and take on that responsibility is asking entirely too much of them. We should not have to worry about arming teachers with anything more than knowledge.
she wears strength and darkness equally well, the girl has always been half goddess, half hell

you can find me on discord Ket#8117
Ons & Offs~Menagerie~Pulse~Den of Iniquity
wee little Ketlings don't yet have the ability to spit forth flame with the ferocity needed to vanquish a horde of vehicular bound tiny arachnids.

Mithlomwen

Quote from: Ket on February 24, 2018, 04:02:35 PM
Because four highly trained officers did not go inside the high school on February 14th. source  source

I agree, situations like these are scary.  Not everyone can be expected to take something like that on. 

Quote from: Ket on February 24, 2018, 04:02:35 PMBecause two highly trained veterans, one a sniper, still weren't able to stop an armed person from killing them...while they were armed themselves. source


Chris Kyle and his friend were shot, not because they were afraid to defend themselves, they were shot because they weren't given the opportunity to defend themselves.  From your link:

QuoteBoth Kyle and Littlefield were armed with .45-caliber M1911-style pistols when they were killed, but neither gun had been unholstered or fired, and the safety catches were still on.

From this article:

QuoteLittlefield, 35, was shot seven times, Barnard told the court. Four of them were “rapidly fatal,” including one to the top of the head that suggests Littlefield was on the ground at the time it was fired, Barnard said.

QuoteTexas Ranger Michael Adcock told the court Thursday that both Kyle and Littlefield were found with .45-caliber 1911-style semi-automatic pistols on their bodies after the killing. Neither men had drawn their weapons from their waistband holsters.

Which means, Eddie Routh shot them by surprise.

Quote from: Ket on February 24, 2018, 04:02:35 PM
Asking our teachers to have to try and take on that responsibility is asking entirely too much of them. We should not have to worry about arming teachers with anything more than knowledge.

I'm not saying that it should be a requirement, but if there are teachers that are willing to take on that responsibility, and can pass the necessary checks and balances in order to do so, why shouldn't they be able to?  That's all I'm asking. 
Baby, it's all I know,
that your half of the flesh and blood that makes me whole...

PrestaDGTation

  Just devil's advocating here.  And I haven't researched this, I'm just asking.  But where are the guns going to come from?

  I can see the school board or an amicable private doner paying for training and maybe even for initial concealed carry permits.  But every weapon?  And the ammo?  And permit renewals (which are $75 dollars annually in this state?)  That's an insane amount of money, and I challenge anybody at any level of government to say that the school systems have that in their budgets.

  But!  Let's say they can afford it after all!  So.. what about all the other issues schools need funding on?  I get that we need to address the issue of safety, immediately.  But once you have it, you still have to ask how you're going to afford those instruments in band, or get new computers and updated text books. 

  I know many teachers.  They have big hearts and often use their own money to buy things for their classrooms.  Especially if the school won't.  So I don't doubt that if a teacher really wants to arm themselves to protect those kids, they'll do it themselves.  My concern is whether or not they'll have to.  And give the rest of the US Budget Situation?  Taking all bets.

  An aside: I like thinking certain professions benefit from having certain perspectives.  Builders I've spoken to can visualize their work, and the math involved becomes second nature, for example.  Effective teachers understand their material, and the nurturing, nigh-theatrical aspect of transmitting that material to their students in a format they can use.  Security learns how to identify and neutralize threats.  I've been reading up on this a bit, and a lot of teacher's seem to have no problem doing it.  But it seems like a strain, asking them to do both. 
"I see. Hell is populated entirely by Theater Majors." - Majabya, while watching Hazbin Hotel.

Regina Minx

Quote from: Mithlomwen on February 24, 2018, 04:28:36 PM
I'm not saying that it should be a requirement, but if there are teachers that are willing to take on that responsibility, and can pass the necessary checks and balances in order to do so, why shouldn't they be able to?  That's all I'm asking.

Because you’ll get a whole lot more of this.


DominantPoet

There's something like 100,000 public schools across the US, right, just counting elementary,  high school and whatnot, no secondary institutions. Say there's 8 teachers per school, just to have a base number to go off. That's some 800,000 people spread across the country to arm, train, and hope they know what they're doing, and that they can do it, if and when a situation arises.

I think it's fairly safe to say that there are going to be those people who would be good in a crisis, they'd react well, they'd be safe, and they would neutralize a threat without freezing up. And then there are those who would crumble completely in the face of danger, because they simply do not have experience dealing with something like that. That's simply not why they became a teacher.

IMO, the vast majority of teachers are likely to be the former. There are certainly those who would freeze up but perhaps react admirably eventually, or be able to shake it out off and do what's necessary. But I don't think most will. You have teachers out there who don't even care about their jobs that much, it's a grind to them. Then, even though people don't really like admitting this, you have teachers who quite frankly hate kids. They took the job because nothing else was around, or they've simply grown jaded and bitter over the years. Give them a gun, train them, they still won't do a damned thing but save their own ass. 

Then you have the potential for accidental shootings, either of themselves or of the kids they're trying to protect. Because, again, depending on the ages of the children and how they deal with an experience they aren't familiar with, they may or may not listen to instructions or warnings, they may get spooked and startle the teacher, teacher pops a round off, child is dead. Or a teenager, or what have you.

Then there's the issue of training vs real life usage. Which ties into the how well they deal with a crisis bit. Some may be heroic, but they simply can't get a shot AT the killers or whoever, because they were good at the shooting gallery where they just stand in place and their targets don't move at all. Basically, you're going to have people who aren't going to handle the gun very well, regardless of how well they deal with the situation otherwise, and even more so if they can't handle it.

ALL of this basically adds up to, again, IMO - this being a BAD idea overall. Very bad.

There are certainly those out there capable enough, there are schools, I'm sure, where they took it upon themselves to do this already, purposefully had their teachers trained, conceal carry for months on end now, and if they wanted to do that, that's great. It's good for those kids they have people who are able to look after them, to that point, even if I think it's a bad idea personally. I'd have a hard time sending my kid off to a school where guns were, no matter who has them. But, if it's working for those schools, then by all means.

But not every school is going to be like that, it's just not possible. Not realistically. And, logistically and financially, trying to implement this countrywide sounds like a nightmare of a problem. And for every school that implements it well, there will be those who half-ass it. That's pretty much a given.

Just consider the fact that many people these days have cell phones, which come with instruction booklets, that they use day in and day out - and you can go pretty much anywhere and ask 10 random people how to do something obscure on the device, and at least half of them won't know how, what you're talking about, or will just try to pretend they know. There are teachers that will view a gun as even less important than a cell phone, because they want to believe it can't happen to them, they'll never have to use it.

DominantPoet

Sorry, that should be the vast majority are going to be the latter -.- I get them mixed up sometimes, especially when I'm half asleep.

Lustful Bride

Quote from: Retribution on February 26, 2018, 04:28:52 PM
https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/26/opinions/why-background-checks-dont-work-opinion-mihalek/index.html

I would still much rather have background checks than not. Every step we can take for better and safer gun ownership (for both owners and non) is a good thing in my mind.