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Author Topic: Trump  (Read 128984 times)

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Offline Skynet

Re: Trump
« Reply #4275 on: December 12, 2018, 06:52:17 PM »
This is not the only administration who separated families.  This is the administration that got called out for it.  There was almost total silence when previous administrations did it.  Jorge Ramos I think is about the only one who really talked about it previously.

The "Obama/Democrats did it" in regards to family separation policies is a falsehood propagated by the Trump Administration and various far-right groups. I'll trust PolitiFact and the Washington Post over BreitBart, the_donald, etc.

https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2018/nov/29/donald-trump/donald-trump-falsely-says-family-separations-were-/
 

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Again, this was based on people who already had deportation orders, before Trump even.  Yes, it can mean there will be future ones.  Most criminals do their crimes to "survive" or make their lives better, citizens too.  This article and the statements provided are about people who already have orders for deportation though. So apparently we don't trust judges from before Trump now too? 

This policy really only existed under Obama.  Bush initiated it in January of 2008, so it was only really only practiced under Obama.  It's not really some long standing staple of national policy, effectively one administration in practice.    That is not really long in the big picture.

Two wrongs don't make a right, and Obama and Bush are no longer President. His own immigration policies are far, far from perfect and in some cases illiberal. But President Trump is now in charge, he's spearheading immigration issues, and his own department has proven itself to be far from fair and just in regards to this, which is why many people are justifiably upset and worried over his actions.

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Remember shoving a cop is assault. And that is ' a violent offense."

A far cry from "violent criminal aliens" which the Trump administration implies to be far worse than a mere shove. The language being used is intentional in this regard.

Personally speaking, I think that undocumented immigrant or no, if someone served the US in war, they should be allowed to be a US citizen* as they more or less entrusted their lives to the very government that will risk deporting them. They did a sacrifice few other Americans can or are willing to do. I don't trust a POTUS which attempted at first to do a Muslim travel ban and referred to it as such on Twitter to be a fair judge of character in this regard.

*barring particularly heinous crimes such as murder and rape.

Offline Sara Nilsson

Re: Trump
« Reply #4276 on: December 12, 2018, 07:20:17 PM »
Also remember, becoming a US citizen isn't cheap. Goddess knows how many thousands of dollars I spent to become one. not everyone can afford to be a citizen. During the swearing in part the director asked if people wanted to say how long they waited to be a citizen and I thought my almost 10 years was long (due to the legal issues with papers being 2 days late and me being trans) and many said they waited 20+ years. One waited over 40. Simply because, they couldn't afford, or they didn't see the need. you get almost as many rights as a legal resident with a green card as you do a citizen, only things like voting etc. are barred. But now with Trump being in power some said, that is why. They where scared to be thrown out that is why.

So saying, well they waited this long to be a citizen isn't exactly honest in my opinion. You can love a country, live in it and not be a citizen as evident by the older man who waited 43 years. 43! And when he spoke of his love for america even I was going.. darmn you make america sound like a utopia with no flaws. That is how much his love was burning inside of him. And he waited that long. Honestly i wouldn't have pushed for citizenship so hard as I did if it wasn't for it just makes some paperwork easier and travel to and from the usa to sweden sooooo much easier. Otherwise I wouldn't have bothered.

Online Tolvo

Re: Trump
« Reply #4277 on: December 12, 2018, 07:29:49 PM »
So while Cohen was sentenced to jail, something was going on.

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/12/12/federal-prosecutors-give-national-enquirer-publisher-immunity.html

The National Enquirer publisher was given immunity by Federal Prosecutors. Who have the story on Trump paying hush money for affairs.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-impeachment-exclusive-idUSKBN1OB01N

Yesterday he defended paying hush money as a civil thing, and as not a big deal, as well as saying if he were impeached there would be a revolt.

Offline Yvellakitsune

Re: Trump
« Reply #4278 on: December 12, 2018, 09:52:31 PM »
So saying, well they waited this long to be a citizen isn't exactly honest in my opinion. You can love a country, live in it and not be a citizen as evident by the older man who waited 43 years. 43! And when he spoke of his love for america even I was going.. darmn you make america sound like a utopia with no flaws. That is how much his love was burning inside of him. And he waited that long. Honestly i wouldn't have pushed for citizenship so hard as I did if it wasn't for it just makes some paperwork easier and travel to and from the usa to sweden sooooo much easier. Otherwise I wouldn't have bothered.

"Isn't exactly honest..."  I said they had their reasons, but they knew full well what the consequences were of their status.  And yes I know how much it costs because my family went through it too.  And while my family is/was in an immigration status, they obeyed the laws specifically because they know the consequences of not doing so. 

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The "Obama/Democrats did it" in regards to family separation policies is a falsehood propagated by the Trump Administration and various far-right groups. I'll trust PolitiFact and the Washington Post over BreitBart, the_donald, etc.

I didn't specifically say it was "Obama/Democrats", you did.  I said previous administrations.  Bush did it too.  Probably Clinton before him too. It was not the same policy as Bush or Obama (and I didn't claim it was), but your own source says it happened under them too in the second paragraph.  That falsehood in Trump's claim was that it was the same policy.  Trump was not the first to do it, which is what I said.  Trump was the first to be confronted about it.  Politifact also notes that the Obama administration did not keep count.  FactCheck.Org shows the same. 

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“We have not seen any data out of the current or prior administration on how many cases that were prosecuted were individuals who arrived with minors,” Theresa Cardinal Brown, director of immigration and cross-border policy at the Bipartisan Policy Center, told us in an email. “So we cannot make any guesses or assumptions about how many separations based on prosecution there were or are.”
https://www.factcheck.org/2018/06/did-the-obama-administration-separate-families/ 

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Two wrongs don't make a right, and Obama and Bush are no longer President. His own immigration policies are far, far from perfect and in some cases illiberal. But President Trump is now in charge, he's spearheading immigration issues, and his own department has proven itself to be far from fair and just in regards to this, which is why many people are justifiably upset and worried over his actions.

So are you saying those judges were wrong then when those judges issued the deportation orders before Trump was in office? Many people are overly upset as well, it is almost to the point of people acting like the right-wingers who were afraid of FEMA Camps.   There is nothing in this article that shows non-criminals will be deported.  If there was a reason for a deportation order in 2000, 2005, 2010, or 2015, it's not just a shove or something. 

"Fair and just" isn't a set standard.  A lot of people considered what Obama did to not be fair or just and others did.  It's a matter of perspective.  Others considered what Bush did was not fair or just and other did. It is your opinion that his policy is not fair or just.   A big reason for Trump's election win is because he was not following the political status quo that voters perceived to be going nowhere, unfair, or unjust.  It is a fact that our own laws have not been getting enforced since the Amnesty or much of the entire immigration debate wouldn't be going on today as it is.  Again, not just Obama/Democrats, but every congress and administration going back to the Amnesty of the 80s has seen to it that immigration has not been truly enforced and both side have a hand in it. 

And you are right, Obama is no longer the president, and Trump has the option not to renew that agreement (as is stated in the agreement itself), or he even could go make a new one.  There are even some provisions in the current agreement to deport refugees from before 1995 if they did not come directly to the USA first, which may be what Trump is referencing since the article doesn't go into the details of the agreement.  The article doesn't go into the basis of how it was interpreted. 

That's all on this.  I don't want to split to another thread or anything.  I understand we disagree.  Time to move on.  Other things are happening in the world.  I appreciate the civil responses.  Goodnight all.  Take care. 

Offline Skynet

Re: Trump
« Reply #4279 on: December 12, 2018, 10:38:38 PM »
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I didn't specifically say it was "Obama/Democrats", you did.  I said previous administrations.  Bush did it too.  Probably Clinton before him too. It was not the same policy as Bush or Obama (and I didn't claim it was), but your own source says it happened under them too in the second paragraph.  That falsehood in Trump's claim was that it was the same policy.  Trump was not the first to do it, which is what I said.  Trump was the first to be confronted about it.  Politifact also notes that the Obama administration did not keep count.  FactCheck.Org shows the same. 

Read the whole article:

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As a consequence of the policy, more than 2,300 immigrant children were separated from their parents as they arrived at the border this summer. Children were put into the custody of U.S. Health and Human Services and the parents referred for prosecution.

Past administrations also separated children from the adults they arrived with in the United States. But immigration experts said those separations were relatively rare and nowhere near the scale under the Trump administration.

The Obama administration began prosecuting border-crossers who had already been deported at least once, but very few of them crossed with children, so it didn’t become as visible an issue, Andrew Selee, president of the Migration Policy Institute, told us for a previous fact-check.

"There was some child separation and some pushback by immigrant advocacy groups around that, but the numbers were quite limited," Seele said.

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While Obama’s administration generally refrained from prosecuting adults who crossed the border with their children, the Trump administration chose to prosecute adults, even when they had kids with them, said Peter Margulies, an immigration law and national security law professor at Roger Williams University School of Law, in June.

"That's a choice — one fundamentally different from the choice made by both Obama and previous presidents of both parties," Margulies said.

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Tweeting about family separations at the border, Trump claimed, "we had the exact same policy as the Obama administration."

That’s not true. Families were separated at the border as a result of a new Trump policy called "zero-tolerance." There were some family separations under the Obama administration, but experts say not at the scale of the Trump administration's and that they were relatively rare.

We rate Trump’s statement False.


It's a matter of scale and delivery which makes things different. Your previous talks of past administrations are an attempt to obfuscate the waters by making it seem as though the droves of children being detained in prison-like conditions has been going on for a while and in the same manner but that everyone was quiet about it because reasons.


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So are you saying those judges were wrong then when those judges issued the deportation orders before Trump was in office? Many people are overly upset as well, it is almost to the point of people acting like the right-wingers who were afraid of FEMA Camps.   There is nothing in this article that shows non-criminals will be deported.  If there was a reason for a deportation order in 2000, 2005, 2010, or 2015, it's not just a shove or something. 

Depends on the circumstances behind the orders and rationales behind it. I don't doubt that there are some which have committed grievous crimes, but again with the Republican majority in the Senate, Supreme Court, and Presidency I don't trust said orders to be handled well now.

Online Tolvo

Re: Trump
« Reply #4280 on: Yesterday at 12:02:30 AM »
https://www.dhs.gov/news/2018/12/12/walls-work

Hey can ya'll help me out here? This is supposed to be a Department of Homeland Security press release, released by Trump's Administration. It's about how they're done with much of the wall and it works and is funded. Now my question.

Am I having some sort of stroke or something reading it?

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: Trump
« Reply #4281 on: Yesterday at 12:15:44 AM »
It's sort of legible English if you mentally correct for whoever faceplanted and failed to properly pluralize 'walls'.

Online Tolvo

Re: Trump
« Reply #4282 on: Yesterday at 12:18:56 AM »
So like, I'm really confused because isn't this almost all false? That he secretly funded the Wall with hundreds of millions of dollars from congress and it is half way done and just on Sunday repelled an attack from 1,000 people? His administration lies, they've used edited footage and images before. But isn't this uh, really extreme even for them?

Offline RedPhoenix

Re: Trump
« Reply #4283 on: Yesterday at 12:33:49 AM »
So like, I'm really confused because isn't this almost all false? That he secretly funded the Wall with hundreds of millions of dollars from congress and it is half way done and just on Sunday repelled an attack from 1,000 people? His administration lies, they've used edited footage and images before. But isn't this uh, really extreme even for them?

I mean. Is it though?

Offline Oniya

Re: Trump
« Reply #4284 on: Yesterday at 12:37:57 AM »
Part of me wants to try Googlemaps on it - part of me wonders how often Googlemaps updates - and a large part of me wants to grab someone by the ear and make them read Strunk and White.

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: Trump
« Reply #4285 on: Yesterday at 10:01:18 AM »
Any official release by the White House or government at this point is about as reliable as a North Korean propaganda statement.

Online Tolvo

Re: Trump
« Reply #4286 on: Yesterday at 04:16:25 PM »
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/12/13/trump-inauguration-spending-under-criminal-investigation-by-federal-prosecutors-dow-jones.html

So another federal investigation into Trump, and his inauguration spending.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/justice-department/trump-was-room-during-hush-money-discussions-nbc-news-confirms-n947536

Now a source claims that Trump was in the room during discussions of paying hush money and that he was directly involved.

https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/421260-trump-telling-confidants-hes-worried-about-impeachment-report

And allegedly Trump is genuinely afraid of impeachment.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/trump-cancels-white-house-christmas-party-for-the-press

And Trump has now joined the war on christmas, very strange move for him. I thought he was the one who believed that was a thing.