Trump

[Ironwolf85]

None of that addresses or answers why I should have to pay more to support the less productive. It actually avoids it. You're not, at least it seems, grasping why people voted for Trump in the first place and subsequently why he will win again.

Most of us understand that greedy corporations are going to get their money, and would rather them have it than simply hand it over to the less fortunate.

Most see the capitalist model as the truest and fairest form of economy there is. Race, religion, etc doesn't matter. The consumer with the dollar has the buying power. Very few of us are worse off than our grand parents. We have iPhones, laptops, cars, microwaves, etc because of innovation and someone's desire to sell stuff for money.

And finally, who says the wall is useless? The only people I see thinking it is a bad idea are people far removed from the border who don't see the irony of saying a wall won't work yet every prison in the country is evidence to the contrary. The wall won't make it worse.

As for the military... well, the United States military is the biggest deterrent to war in the world and in order to stay on top it does need new technology and funding. Because, Space Force. I jest. I have mixed feelings on defense budget myself.

There. I humored you by responding to all of your points. Would you respond to mine about why I should have to pay more or not be taken care of first?

welp I could do the plea based on enlightenment values and morality that our culture embraces. But let's go with 3 different answers

1. (humanist) because there are far fewer "unproductive" people on welfare than you think. Most do some sort of work, be it creative or social. Without work and a purpose to their lives many people naturally seek one out. Even if not measured in monetary gain. Otherwise they slip into deep depression and question their value as a human being.

2. (socialist) On the flip side of the coin. You're also subsidizing people who may work 50-70 hours a week at two or more jobs, yet still don't make enough to pay for rent and food. The conversation then goes"why don't they quit? or get a better job? or live within their means" and then we get into socioeconomic factors that vary widely from place to place.

3. (libertarian) When the cost of a single big-mac in new york city is more than the hourly wage of the man behind the grill he is not being paid enough.
You are actually reimbursing walmart for about 1/3rd of all their employee wages through subsidies, while also providing that workforce with food and shelter. This is how their employee costs can be so low, and their earnings so high.
if you don't they're going to organize/protest/agitate ect until their living standards go up to human levels. You are preventing "socialism" while also maintaining company earnings through a higher living standard for the working class which you pay for.

[Tolvo]

https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/14/politics/donald-trump-clemson-food/index.html

Some weird and ridiculous Trump news, Trump is hosting a dinner for a sports team. Due to the partial government shutdown according to him they don't have the staff to cook dinner for them so Trump has personally ordered McDonald's, Wendy's, Burger King, and a bunch of pizzas. He is serving it all in a fancy dining hall on expensive platters and china and has been posting lots of photos of him posting next to mounds of Big Mac's and McNuggets. All while constantly blaming the Democrats for this and using it try and get his border wall. The shut down which he plans to continue.

There have been Steamed Hams jokes a plenty.

[Deamonbane]

Pretty sure that this has been posted already but...

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/trackdown-trump-character-wall/

A 1950s TV Episode Featured a Character Named Trump Who Offered to Build a Protective Wall.

And the character in questions looks a lot like Fred Trump.

That's one hell of a coincidence or I now believe in time travel.

[Tolvo]

Well it is possible they may have been poking at the Trump family since they were called by that name since 1896.

A slightly more ironic one is that Trump's Grandfather who had the original Drumpf name before it was forcibly changed by immigration officials was accused of emigrating to avoid the draft.

And Trump isn't a totally uncommon name, though I think sub 10,000 people in the USA have it. And it is a word that means to bring about an event or change or herald something, or to have power. So it isn't unreasonable that they could have used that name for many different reasons or just randomly chose it. But the wall and conman similarity is quite amusing and fitting.

[Iniquitous]

Well it is possible they may have been poking at the Trump family since they were called by that name since 1896.

A slightly more ironic one is that Trump's Grandfather who had the original Drumpf name before it was forcibly changed by immigration officials was accused of emigrating to avoid the draft.

And Trump isn't a totally uncommon name, though I think sub 10,000 people in the USA have it. And it is a word that means to bring about an event or change or herald something, or to have power. So it isn't unreasonable that they could have used that name for many different reasons or just randomly chose it. But the wall and conman similarity is quite amusing and fitting.

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/trumps-grandfather-bavaria-deport/

His grandfather and family were deported from what was then Bavaria.  Read link above.

[Deamonbane]

Well, the coincidence in question would be the fact that the video is about a conman using fear tactics to con the people of a town into paying him to build a wall around their town for protection.

A copy of the original episode was put up on YouTube.

https://youtu.be/h1D2ynASqe4

[Tolvo]

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/trumps-grandfather-bavaria-deport/

His grandfather and family were deported from what was then Bavaria.  Read link above.

Yep. I wonder how the world would be different if they had been allowed to stay.

And yep Deamon as I said.

[Callie Del Noire]

https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/14/politics/donald-trump-clemson-food/index.html

Some weird and ridiculous Trump news, Trump is hosting a dinner for a sports team. Due to the partial government shutdown according to him they don't have the staff to cook dinner for them so Trump has personally ordered McDonald's, Wendy's, Burger King, and a bunch of pizzas. He is serving it all in a fancy dining hall on expensive platters and china and has been posting lots of photos of him posting next to mounds of Big Mac's and McNuggets. All while constantly blaming the Democrats for this and using it try and get his border wall. The shut down which he plans to continue.

There have been Steamed Hams jokes a plenty.

I can see it now.. "So I went to the White House.. and got KFC... the president is a tool."

[Kitteredge]

None of that addresses or answers why I should have to pay more to support the less productive. It actually avoids it. You're not, at least it seems, grasping why people voted for Trump in the first place and subsequently why he will win again.

Most of us understand that greedy corporations are going to get their money, and would rather them have it than simply hand it over to the less fortunate.

Most see the capitalist model as the truest and fairest form of economy there is. Race, religion, etc doesn't matter. The consumer with the dollar has the buying power. Very few of us are worse off than our grand parents. We have iPhones, laptops, cars, microwaves, etc because of innovation and someone's desire to sell stuff for money.

And finally, who says the wall is useless? The only people I see thinking it is a bad idea are people far removed from the border who don't see the irony of saying a wall won't work yet every prison in the country is evidence to the contrary. The wall won't make it worse.

As for the military... well, the United States military is the biggest deterrent to war in the world and in order to stay on top it does need new technology and funding. Because, Space Force. I jest. I have mixed feelings on defense budget myself.

There. I humored you by responding to all of your points. Would you respond to mine about why I should have to pay more or not be taken care of first?

I grew up on the border, in El Paso. The wall is one of the stupidest ideas I've ever heard, and this view is shared pretty widely among those who live or have lived in the four states adjacent. It's a massive, stupid boondoggle that will have absolutely no affect on migration from here to there. The many reasons it is stupid are almost too many to count. But primarily you're talking about miles upon miles upon miles of desert that would require a huge amount of manpower to patrol in order to make the wall matter. I'm talking thousands of miles. Without continual guard posts, a wall would be easily surmounted by ladders, burrowed beneath with tunnels, blown up, or sawn through, all of which have been shown many times.

In all major population spots along the border there are already walls and barriers between the two countries. What Trump wants is wall passing through the middle of nowhere that will cost billions and billions to build, billions to maintain.

This doesn't even include how difficult it would be to mash through the extensive property rights issues. Much of the land along the border is owned by private citizens. You're just going to steal it from them? Not to mention a major native American tribe that occupies territory on BOTH sides of the border. And then, in Texas, how do you handle the Rio Grande? The only way to do it would be to build a wall on the interior of the United States, essentially giving up the waterway, whichi is often used by farmers for irrigation.

This doesn't even include migratory animals and other wildlife. In those vast empty tracks of desert there are many animals whose ecologies would be potentially destroyed by such senseless destruction, although, as a conservative, I figure you don't give a crap about wildlife.

The bottom line is that the wall is a complete and utter waste of money that will have absolutely no impact on illegal immigration. Most illegal immigrants come into the country on Visas through airports and simply overstay their documentation. If you're so concerned about things, work to ensure that this doesn't happen. The wall is a useless symbol instead of an actual solution. It's also tremendously expensive.

Frankly, Trump is an idiot on this topic and it sounds like you are as profoundly misinformed as he is.

[TheGlyphstone]

I doubt even Trump truly believes it will solve the problem, but that's not his intention. It's a symbol of his power and authority, a not so metaphorical 3,000km long concrete penis metaphor.

[Callie Del Noire]

I doubt even Trump truly believes it will solve the problem, but that's not his intention. It's a symbol of his power and authority, a not so metaphorical 3,000km long concrete penis metaphor.

Thing is.. Congress must NOT cave. If they do he will do it every time he wants something. It’s a precedent we can’t allow to be established.

[Chantarelle]

Americans voted for it they should get it.

[Regina Minx]

Americans voted for it they should get it.

Sixty-five million is a bigger number than sixty-two million.

[Kitteredge]

Americans voted for it they should get it.

They voted for a wall? Didn't realize.

You know 27% of the available electorate voted for Trump, right?

[Kitteredge]

What's even stupider than the wall is that it'll take years just to get through the legal issues of taking land from private owners. Then it'll take years to actually build this thing. This is NOT an urgent matter, simply because it can't be done quickly. If the GOP didn't bother voting for the funds when they had both houses, they can wait until actual plans can be put together and see if the House approves. Trump's making it seem like the thing can be built overnight, which isn't even laughable, it makes you wonder if his supporters actually have brains.

Border crossings are at the lowest point in decades. The executive branch failed to even spend the money they had allocated to them last year. Meanwhile the Coast Guard and the TSA are shuttered, the Border Patrol is not getting paid. You know, things with actual value in keeping us secure.

[Skynet]

Americans voted for it they should get it.

Only one out of six Americans voted for Trump. Those who voted against him, as well as those too young to vote, do not deserve to suffer under his administration's depredations.

[Missy]

Only one out of six Americans voted for Trump. Those who voted against him, as well as those too young to vote, do not deserve to suffer under his administration's depredations.

Is there any better statement.

[legomaster00156]

Not just private land. The wall will also require an international treaty with Mexico regarding the fate of the Rio Grande River, which forms a part of the border, unless the USA just wants to cede the entire river (which Americans use) to Mexico. It will also require the negotiation of a treaty with a Native American tribe on the border.

https://www.usatoday.com/border-wall/story/tohono-oodham-nation-arizona-tribe/582487001/

[gaggedLouise]

Thing is.. Congress must NOT cave. If they do he will do it every time he wants something. It’s a precedent we can’t allow to be established.

Absolutely agree! His approach is like that of a certain past dictator who also wanted to do away with the rule of law and parliament whenever they came between him and "the people" - and who would coax, bully, trick and threaten other countries into giving him what he wanted. Each time he would say "It is my very last demand!", and each time it turned out that more steps, more blackmail would follow.

[TheGlyphstone]

http://www.people-press.org/2019/01/16/most-border-wall-opponents-supporters-say-shutdown-concessions-are-unacceptable/


Pew research poll seems to indicate we are indeed stuck in for the long haul. Trump refuses to give an inch, and an overwhelming majority of Republican voters agree with him; the Democrats won't compromise either, with overwhelming support from their base as well.

[gaggedLouise]

After Mrs Pelosi urged Trump not to make his State of the Union speech at the Capitol for now, but rather move it to some later date or make it by tv from the Oval Office, because of lack of proper security resources - the security people too are being dug into by the government shutdown - Trump replies in true Trump style. By denying the use of a military aircraft, he blocks an upcoming visit to Afghanistan by his adversary (that's certainly how he sees her).

https://edition.cnn.com/2019/01/17/politics/donald-trump-nancy-pelosi-trip-cancel/index.html

This is demeaning to the White House (but not new). Everyone can see Trump engaging in a petty tit-for-tat game here.

[Tolvo]

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/jasonleopold/trump-russia-cohen-moscow-tower-mueller-investigation

So federal law enforcement officials have said that they have evidence of emails, caches, text messages, showing Trump directed Cohen personally to lie to congress, after the election. Cohen confirmed this when asked to the special counsel investigators when they interviewed him and questioned him in November. As well this is further information on Trump directly working on the Trump Tower Moscow deal and pushing it forward personally. As well as detailing that basically every one of the main Trumps were involved in the project. The evidence has yet to be made public as I imagine that will come when they feel they have finished their full investigation but they have access to all these emails, texts, pieces of data, records, etc. I'm not sure if they've found anything yet going through Trump's foreign bank and tax attorney's records yet both of which they raided, the foreign bank actually for broader reasons relating to the Panama Papers that also is just Trump's bank, done by international groups not the FBI itself.

[Kitteredge]

It's hard to tell what happens now. It's basically down to McConnell and what exactly he thinks he's saving, whether it's his own ass, his party's ass, or what. If it's Trump himself, and why. The shutdown potentially looks like the last stand of Trump's presidency. If it ends, his power is broken, whatever that means.

Meanwhile, there's been a series of bombs dropped on him in the form of these stories. Either news organs have been sitting on them, or these are strategic leaks to stop things before they get worse. If the sense is the latter, this must be terrifying for McConnell since he doesn't know what else is in the arsenal. (And I suspect it's a lot.) Given that there's a lot of suggestion that the GOP has been breaking a lot of campaign finance laws at the very least, he has to thread the needle between protecting his side and holding on too long.

We're in uncharted territory. Watergate is only a vague guide.

[Regina Minx]

BuzzFeed. We all might need to take their quizzes more seriously now. 

We're in uncharted territory. Watergate is only a vague guide.

Actually, the first article of impeachment against Nixon was “Subsequent [to the watergate breakin] thereto, Richard M. Nixon, using the powers of his high office, engaged personally and through his close subordinates and agents, in a course of conduct or plan designed to delay, impede, and obstruct the investigation of such illegal entry; to cover up, conceal and protect those responsible; and to conceal the existence and scope of other unlawful covert activities.”

[Kitteredge]

Sure, but the GOP was far less willing to form a wall around Nixon. The party is very different now.