Charlottesville

[Trigon]

Finally some good news! GoDaddy has finally decided to expel Daily Stormer from its services, due to publishing a blog post in which they smeared Heather Hayer (the one who was killed by being run over in the Charolettesville protest): http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-40922029

Google has also taken to expelling them as well.

[Lustful Bride]

Several people not involved with the violence in Charlottesville have been misidentified as Nazis due to the internet thinking it knows how to investigate.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/amateur-sleuths-aim-to-identify-charlottesville-marchers-but-sometimes-misfire/ar-AAq5nU5?ocid=HPCOMMDHP15

[Cookie]

Several people not involved with the violence in Charlottesville have been misidentified as Nazis due to the internet thinking it knows how to investigate.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/amateur-sleuths-aim-to-identify-charlottesville-marchers-but-sometimes-misfire/ar-AAq5nU5?ocid=HPCOMMDHP15

Yeah that kind of stuff always worries me. I recall there was a trend a while back on Facebook where people would try to out animal abusers with pictures and comments. I understand the sentiment I guess, but always stank of mob justice, anyone can get misidentified as a wrongdoer then get pitchforked by randoms when they're going about their business.

[Valerian]

https://www.texastribune.org/2017/08/14/white-nationalist-rally-texas-m-has-been-canceled/

One of the self-proclaimed "sequels" to Charlottesville has been canceled, at least for now.

Saying they’re concerned about student safety, Texas A&M University leaders announced Monday that they have canceled a planned white nationalist rally on campus.

The school said in a statement that it made the decision after consulting law enforcement and "considerable study." The event won’t happen because of "concerns about the safety of its students, faculty, staff and the public,” the school said.

The event was touted by [organizer Preston] Wiginton as a “White Lives Matter” rally. He said on Saturday that it would feature multiple speakers and a DJ. Infamous “alt-right” leader Richard Spencer confirmed on Sunday that he was planning to attend.

Wiginton said A&M can expect legal action soon, saying he knew of a lawyer who would help.

I am far more amused by the name of the organizer than I really should be.  Also, the event was planned to take place on a plaza named after Earl Rudder, a former A&M president, who's famed for his heroism fighting Nazis in World War II.

[Wistful Dream]

Seeing the coverage on this event is really unsettling. I get the debates with how to label these people, both from those against them and among themselves. But my thoughts are in line with the old adage, "If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it's a duck." These people were throwing Nazi salutes, roaring boil and soil, and other quotes that are clearly Nazi in origin. Some protest that they aren't all like that, but the issue then becomes if you are not a Nazi, or supporting of Nazi's, then why are you out there with them? Why are you not saying, "This is too far."

Phil DeFranco is a really good center view point in a lot of things, and his responses sum up a lot of how I view it.

When protesters come armed to the teeth like those in Charlottesville did it's not a peaceful protest. I honestly feel like the whole thing was a measure of domestic terrorism.

And I say this with a large part of my family identifying as Republicans. I don't have an issue with Republican's. I have an issue with people screaming words of hate, using weapons (including cars) against unarmed protesters seeking to have their voices heard. Yes, there can be issues with the Left, I'm not denying that, the shooter who 'supported Bernie' who attacked that baseball game was a terrorist in my eyes. But just because that happened it doesn't negate how absolutely horrible this is.

My parents are Republicans, I identified as an independent more but registered Democratic this past year when I saw the Republican front runners. Funny thing is, as right as my parents are fiscally they are very open to a lot of the social liberalism that's evolving in our country. I know several Republicans who are.  When my parents and I discuss politics we avoid discussing parties, because we make our choices based on different things, the social part is far more important to me. But then I'm a poly, LGTBQ woman.

I'm scared of where our country is going, I'm worried about the safety of those I love. I'm not sure when our country became unable to have discussions rather than screaming matches.

[DelightfullyMAD]

Seeing the coverage on this event is really unsettling. I get the debates with how to label these people, both from those against them and among themselves. But my thoughts are in line with the old adage, "If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it's a duck." These people were throwing Nazi salutes, roaring boil and soil, and other quotes that are clearly Nazi in origin. Some protest that they aren't all like that, but the issue then becomes if you are not a Nazi, or supporting of Nazi's, then why are you out there with them? Why are you not saying, "This is too far."

Phil DeFranco is a really good center view point in a lot of things, and his responses sum up a lot of how I view it.

When protesters come armed to the teeth like those in Charlottesville did it's not a peaceful protest. I honestly feel like the whole thing was a measure of domestic terrorism.

And I say this with a large part of my family identifying as Republicans. I don't have an issue with Republican's. I have an issue with people screaming words of hate, using weapons (including cars) against unarmed protesters seeking to have their voices heard. Yes, there can be issues with the Left, I'm not denying that, the shooter who 'supported Bernie' who attacked that baseball game was a terrorist in my eyes. But just because that happened it doesn't negate how absolutely horrible this is.

My parents are Republicans, I identified as an independent more but registered Democratic this past year when I saw the Republican front runners. Funny thing is, as right as my parents are fiscally they are very open to a lot of the social liberalism that's evolving in our country. I know several Republicans who are.  When my parents and I discuss politics we avoid discussing parties, because we make our choices based on different things, the social part is far more important to me. But then I'm a poly, LGTBQ woman.

I'm scared of where our country is going, I'm worried about the safety of those I love. I'm not sure when our country became unable to have discussions rather than screaming matches.

I do not endorse or condone the sorts of rhetoric and vitriol that was present at the march in Charlottesville.  I, like most people, found it very uncouth, distasteful, and very shameful.  And I am very much opposed to the use of violence, as I see violence as the last resort that is only used by those who have otherwise lost the argument.

That being said, this situation is more complicated than I think a lot of people want to admit.  Yes, the Neo-Nazis present at the march were armed, and probably looking for trouble, but the march itself was actually legitimate within the confines of the law.  They did actually go through the proper channels in order to procure permits, from what I was able to glean, and thus, as nasty as the protest might have been, they were still within their rights to do it.

The other side, Antifa, also went there itching for a rumble.  They weren't there holding flowers and handing out Pepsi in an attempt to peacefully counter protest, they were there to rumble as well.  Whether or not one agrees with Antifa or not (I personally find them just as bad, and frankly their actions across the nation are actually contributing to making things worse, not better), the issue is that both sides were pretty much looking to throw down.  And as per usual, both sides begin to feed into one another, and thus we end up with Charlottesville.

The problem that occurs when one tries to Fight Fire With Fire, is that we just end up making the fire bigger.  When it comes right down to it, extremists are beginning to take over society, on all sides, and regardless as to which side is right or wrong, neither side is going to back down, and violence will be met with violence, over and over.  As heinous as Nazi wannabes are, as despicable as their rhetoric may be, the problem with meeting their hate with your own is that you ultimately do nothing but feed into it.  Punching a Nazi simply because they are Nazi's isn't going to defeat Nazism, it just makes you feel better, all while further fueling the ideology.

Ultimately, unfortunately, there really is no good answer.  I mean, what are we supposed to do?  Arrest them simply for being Nazis?  At that point, we have just hit the slippery slope, for that sort of action never goes well in the long run.  That way lies Totalitarianism, which, despite what we may wish to think, is perfectly capable of arising on either side of the political isle.

[Lustful Bride]

I do not endorse or condone the sorts of rhetoric and vitriol that was present at the march in Charlottesville.  I, like most people, found it very uncouth, distasteful, and very shameful.  And I am very much opposed to the use of violence, as I see violence as the last resort that is only used by those who have otherwise lost the argument.

That being said, this situation is more complicated than I think a lot of people want to admit.  Yes, the Neo-Nazis present at the march were armed, and probably looking for trouble, but the march itself was actually legitimate within the confines of the law.  They did actually go through the proper channels in order to procure permits, from what I was able to glean, and thus, as nasty as the protest might have been, they were still within their rights to do it.

The other side, Antifa, also went there itching for a rumble.  They weren't there holding flowers and handing out Pepsi in an attempt to peacefully counter protest, they were there to rumble as well.  Whether or not one agrees with Antifa or not (I personally find them just as bad, and frankly their actions across the nation are actually contributing to making things worse, not better), the issue is that both sides were pretty much looking to throw down.  And as per usual, both sides begin to feed into one another, and thus we end up with Charlottesville.

The problem that occurs when one tries to Fight Fire With Fire, is that we just end up making the fire bigger.  When it comes right down to it, extremists are beginning to take over society, on all sides, and regardless as to which side is right or wrong, neither side is going to back down, and violence will be met with violence, over and over.  As heinous as Nazi wannabes are, as despicable as their rhetoric may be, the problem with meeting their hate with your own is that you ultimately do nothing but feed into it.  Punching a Nazi simply because they are Nazi's isn't going to defeat Nazism, it just makes you feel better, all while further fueling the ideology.

Ultimately, unfortunately, there really is no good answer.  I mean, what are we supposed to do?  Arrest them simply for being Nazis?  At that point, we have just hit the slippery slope, for that sort of action never goes well in the long run.  That way lies Totalitarianism, which, despite what we may wish to think, is perfectly capable of arising on either side of the political isle.

This is pretty much the same problem with the Westboro Baptist Church. They are unquestionably pieces of shit. protesting military funerals, constantly heckling and protesting gay marriage with some of the most disgusting things I have ever seen, but they know how to spew their bile while still being perfectly within the law. And while id love to see them be tazed, maced and clonked with some batons, I know that if it did happen itd be a bad sign for the country as the government would be extending beyond its acceptable limit.

[DelightfullyMAD]

It is quite the conundrum, isn't it?  Of course it would be wonderful if we could just silence such people, make them go away.  After all, it's very tempting, such ideologies are poisonous, toxic, and vile.  But at that point, where do we stop?  Human beings are notoriously bad at moderation, we tend towards extremes no matter what we do.  Damn near every movement becomes corrupt over time, it's only a matter of time, because no matter how noble or good the ideology, we just don't know when to call it quits.  We reach the perfect point, the point where we have attained that which we set out to accomplish... then proceed to zoom right on past that point, become ever more extreme, ever more convinced of our own righteousness.  And that never ends well.

This is why I, despite my own distaste for them, begrudgingly still defend the basic right for people to believe what they want, and say what they want.  It sucks, it isn't the perfect solution, but the alternative just never ends well, because people just never know when to stop.  Like I asked before, what should we do to those who hold such ideologies?  Arrest them?  Punish them?  Kill them?  All these would be short term solutions, but how long would it be before we start expanding the umbrella of what we consider justified?  That is where the issue lies.

[Regina Minx]

DelightfullyMAD, I just want to point out that you are once again drawing an equivalence between Nazis and their opponents. If in the course of your argument, you feel the need to point to two sides and say "You're both at fault here," and one of them looks like this:



Rethink your position immediately.

Also, I need to call out that once again you're engaged in a logical fallacy. This time you're slippery slope-ing. There are laws on the books in most European countries that outlaw public display of Nazi paraphanalia and/or banning incitement to hatred against segments of the population. And yet, I seriously doubt you're prepared to say that modern-day Germany is a totalitarian state.

Note that I'm not saying that I agree with this as a legal principal or as a worthy sacrifice of First Amendment rights. Only that just because a country bans public displays of Nazi-ism and incitement on the basis of race or religion doesn't make it a fascist dictatorship.

[Sara Nilsson]

It is quite the conundrum, isn't it?  Of course it would be wonderful if we could just silence such people, make them go away.  After all, it's very tempting, such ideologies are poisonous, toxic, and vile.  But at that point, where do we stop?  Human beings are notoriously bad at moderation, we tend towards extremes no matter what we do.  Damn near every movement becomes corrupt over time, it's only a matter of time, because no matter how noble or good the ideology, we just don't know when to call it quits.  We reach the perfect point, the point where we have attained that which we set out to accomplish... then proceed to zoom right on past that point, become ever more extreme, ever more convinced of our own righteousness.  And that never ends well.

This is why I, despite my own distaste for them, begrudgingly still defend the basic right for people to believe what they want, and say what they want.  It sucks, it isn't the perfect solution, but the alternative just never ends well, because people just never know when to stop.  Like I asked before, what should we do to those who hold such ideologies?  Arrest them?  Punish them?  Kill them?  All these would be short term solutions, but how long would it be before we start expanding the umbrella of what we consider justified?  That is where the issue lies.

But the thing is, lots of European countries have made it illegal to fly the nazi flag, to do the salute and we havent gone ban crazy. So no it isn't all that much of a slippery slope. As a Swede I can safely say, nope still am free to say pretty much what I want. I cant scream Sieg Heil with my hand in the air, I cant call for the extermination of an entire race.. but really is that such a big deal? Sweden hasn't continued.. no you can't say this.. and this.. and this.. and we don't want people to say this.. no.. We said. No nazi shit or calling for harm on others. And we stopped there. Ill point to my much longer reply above.

[DelightfullyMAD]

@Sara Nilsson+Regina Minx:  I will concede the point.  And again, I certainly am not in support of ideologies such as this, and do in fact condemn them quite strongly.  Nazism is most definitely something that should be opposed, no arguments, and White Supremacists, or any Supremacists, should also be opposed.  Those sorts of ideologies completely miss the whole point of an egalitarian society. Again, I fully agree with that.  Open and civil discourse should reign in any civilized country, and all such groups only serve to muddy those waters, and no, in that regard, I won't relent.  Violence doesn't contribute to peaceful discourse, no matter where it comes from.

[Iniquitous]

Violence does not contribute to discourse, but it sure makes a point that some things are utterly unacceptable.  Nazism is one of those utterly unacceptable things. And before you say that violence should never happen, look at what one of our founding fathers said.

The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.

So, yes, there are times that violence is necessary.  I think you need to seriously look at what you are saying, because what it amounts to is that Heather Heyer was to blame for her death because the anti-protesters didn't have a permit. 

[DelightfullyMAD]

That was hardly my intention, nor would I ever suggest such.  I apologize if I did, though I don't really think I was making any sort of attempt at victim blaming.  What happened to her was truly tragic, it was murder, and the driver should be tried as such.

[Trigon]

Violence does not contribute to discourse, but it sure makes a point that some things are utterly unacceptable.  Nazism is one of those utterly unacceptable things. And before you say that violence should never happen, look at what one of our founding fathers said.

The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.

So, yes, there are times that violence is necessary.  I think you need to seriously look at what you are saying, because what it amounts to is that Heather Heyer was to blame for her death because the anti-protesters didn't have a permit.

We should take caution when making a comparison with past revolutions or insurrections, or even just basic policing or military operations. All of those actions presume that violence is a means to an end, and will therefore cease to be necessary at some point in the future. Fascists and other far-Right groups, on the otherhand, see violence as an end in and of itself (i.e. They like it for its own sake, if they seize power they will very likely escalate it).

[SidheLady]

We should take caution when making a comparison with past revolutions or insurrections, or even just basic policing or military operations. All of those actions presume that violence is a means to an end, and will therefore cease to be necessary at some point in the future. Fascists and other far-Right groups, on the otherhand, see violence as an end in and of itself (i.e. They like it for its own sake, if they seize power they will very likely escalate it).

I think we should remember there are extremists on both sides at the moment, both the far left and the far right. Look at what happened at Berkley or Hamberg at the G20

[Oniya]

Back when I was in college, the KKK decided that they were going to have a march.  They apparently filed all the proper permits, walked down the main street, and that was that.  There was some discussion in some of the classrooms about First Amendment rights at the time, and one thing was specifically pointed out:  The Constitution specifies the right to peaceable assembly.  I went poking about to see under what circumstances an assembly permit could be revoked - or an assembly with a permit could be shut down - and it turns out that there is legal precedent about this sort of thing in a number of countries.  https://www.loc.gov/law/help/peaceful-assembly/right-to-peaceful-assembly.pdf  The US is listed last, but the bit I find notable is this:

The First Amendment does not provide the right to conduct an assembly at which there is a clear and present danger of riot, disorder, or  interference with traffic on public streets, or other immediate threat to public safety or order.

So, you can have your swastikas and your 'Heil Hitler' salutes, but when you start brandishing weapons at people, you've crossed out of the 'protection of the Constitution'.  That goes for both sides.

[Lilias]

[Regina Minx]

I think we should remember there are extremists on both sides at the moment, both the far left and the far right. Look at what happened at Berkley or Hamberg at the G20

Yes, there are extremists on both sides. But that does not mean that the ideologies of these two groups are at all equivalent. On one side you have advocates of social justice reform in addition to opposition to fascism. On the other side you have. Fucking. Nazis.

[Wistful Dream]

Lil, that is just so perfect.

DelightfullyMAD, I wasn't saying that the extreme left is in the right. I was saying that just because they can do stuff just as bad doesn't negate what's happening due to the alt right who identify as Neo-Nazis. It's rather similar in my mind to the fashion brand that tried to reclaim the Swastika. Yes the symbol was originally one of peace but the fact is that it is so wildly known now to be a symbol for Nazism, for hatred and bigotry and ethnic cleansing, that those who use it are to a degree aligning themselves with that ideology. The global response to that fashion brand had that particular line of clothing being shelved, because there are some things that should not be reclaimed, at least not so soon after the tragedy and horror that happened.

And no, saying that about Nazi's doesn't negate what the US did to the Japanese American's in internment camps, or how the US government and medical researches treated Pureto Rico. There's bad stuff everywhere, in every country. But we as a society should keep calling it out, and holding people accountable for basic human rights.

I am proud of the Freedom of Speech we have, and I do not wish to see it removed -- though Lil's comic shows a very useful point that certain things are calls to action that could incite harm. Which I feel is exactly what happened.

Yes, there are extremists on both sides. But that does not mean that the ideologies of these two groups are at all equivalent. On one side you have advocates of social justice reform in addition to opposition to fascism. On the other side you have. Fucking. Nazis.

+1

[DelightfullyMAD]

@Wistful Dream:  Point taken, but I also must note that there is a trend where a lot of people seem to believe that the Alt-Right is the entire Right.  I would no more condemn the Left as a whole for the actions of Antifa, for example, but when I see others essentially condemn the entire Right for the actions of it's own extremists, the Alt-Right and the Neo-Nazis, then that is the same thing.  I know many Right Wing people, and all of them are reasonable and decent folk.  They hold to conservative values, some of which I agree with, some of which I don't, but they aren't out there brandishing Swastikas and calling for the deaths of non-whites, and they are just as horrified by the actions of groups like the Alt-Right as anyone.  Yet it seems like a lot of people think that the entirety of the Right are all members of the Alt-Right, and simply do not recognize that much like the moderate Left, the moderate Right aren't monsters, nor do they even hold ideals that are in any way hateful.

Simply put, this isn't a case of 'the Left has it's extremists, but the entire Right are all Nazis', the case is that 'The Left has it's extremists, and the Right has it's extremists.  The Left has Antifa, the Right has the Alt-Right.'  We have to be willing to condemn these extremist movements, because just like the Alt-Right who should be called out and called to task, groups like Antifa need to be called out as well.

[midnightblack]

I disagree Midnightblack.. like one of my teachers said.."Better to have them show their hate, and know it's there, than to outlaw it and have them hide it." Or today, have them justify their actions Like the do.

Evil is going to be there, I'd rather see it so I can point it out and call it out. Too many smiling faces in the news already foster rotten attitudes. Given an open forum they can out themselves.. like Milo Yiannopolis? He literally hung himself in the media..

Sorry for the delayed reply. I don't agree with your teacher and neither with the reverse attitude having the implications that you mention in the second paragraph. There's no need for smiling faces here. Whenever in doubt, you have the simple, factual historic truth at your side. The ideologies of the late XIXth and XXth centuries that lead to death at a global scale do not deserve to share the freedom that was patched together as we tried (and some of us still do...) to trudge out from their ruins. Unrestrained freedom, together with a lack of understanding of the purpose that it serves, will only lead to the repetition of mistakes.

I do agree that evil must be pointed out, but not by allowing its ashes to glow again in public displays. Nazism (and any other failed ideology for that matter) must never be forgotten, but constantly held accountable and condemned for its countless crimes. At least for a couple of thousands of years from now, until the dust of ancient history has settled over its name and (hopefully) we have achieved the intellectual maturity to laugh at its ridiculousness  and shelf it as a miscellaneous topic in some boring volume. Its leaders do not deserve to be glorified (one of the organizers of this rally appears to have been wearing a t-shirt with the mug of a fascist figurehead from my own little country; it's rather amazing actually), but rather remembered as precisely what history has ultimately proven them to be: absolute morons.

[WindFish]

It's disappointing, but not surprising, that Trump is spinning the narrative that makes the white nationalists and alt-right look like the victims.

The fascists, alt-right, Nazis or whatever you want to call them are not victims, and nor are they peaceful. When you're representing an ideology that literally represents violence, genocide, and bigotry, you are not peaceful or innocent. When they show up at rallies carrying torches or dressed like paramilitaries, they lose the right to call themselves peaceful. When they make the Hitler salute and they chant actual Nazi slogans, "death to Jews", and other bigoted slurs, they do not get to call themselves victims or peaceful. When they beat up people simply because of their race, they are not victims. When one of them borrows ISIS' tactics and plows a car through innocent people, killing one, that certainly does not make them the sweet, innocent victims that Trump is making them out to be. That makes them terrorists. I have absolutely no sympathy for them, and they deserve none. My sympathies are for their victims.

[Samael]

That being said, this situation is more complicated than I think a lot of people want to admit.  Yes, the Neo-Nazis present at the march were armed, and probably looking for trouble, but the march itself was actually legitimate within the confines of the law.  They did actually go through the proper channels in order to procure permits, from what I was able to glean, and thus, as nasty as the protest might have been, they were still within their rights to do it.

I do recommend you watching this

Charlottesville: Race and Terror – VICE News Tonight on HBO
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P54sP0Nlngg

It is only 20 minutes, but it involves journalists being around Neo-Nazis during the whole thing.
You can see their thoughts and words and ... their guns and weapons, and their hopes for what will happen.

I am also presenting this quote:
The paradox of tolerance: Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them.
~ Karl Popper


As a German I spent most of my history classes in school dealing with the terrors of the Holocaust and the second world war.
As I was a kid, I talked with my grandfather about that time, about his experiences within it. About the anger and the shame he felt for himself and for my country for the horrible actions we've taken. Until his death he was adamant about that there was nothing as horrible as the Nazis in the world.
By everything I saw and learned, from school to visiting Auschwitz, I tell you guys, if you have the chance to punch a Nazi?

Do it.

Nothing compares to what Nazis would do if they come back into power again.
We are talking about people who learned to to kill as many people as efficiently as possible.
And if they come back, they'll do it all over again.

Don't let that happen.

[Lilias]

As a German I spent most of my history classes in school dealing with the terrors of the Holocaust and the second world war.
By everything I saw and learned, from school to visiting Auschwitz, I tell you guys, if you have the chance to punch a Nazi?

Do it

Like a boss.

[Samael]

Like a boss.

INDY BEING AWESOME.JPG

Fuckin' A!

Also, and this is important, guys, if you are on the fence, if anyone is on the fence about the Neo-Nazis, both sides and all of that jazz, watch the Vice Documentary posted up there, and then watch this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23X14HS4gLk
This has been produced (iirc 43, then reissued in 47) right during the Second World War.

It is frightening how much this fits today.