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Started by Machete, May 17, 2012, 11:36:09 AM

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Machete

As some of you know, I'm working on a German mutant named Sascha von Heinz.  I know Bavarians use surname-first order.  Would von go before Heinz or after Sascha when typing since her family has no connection to the German nobility?

Beguile's Mistress

This might help.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_name

Scroll down to the section titled "Order of names and use of articles."

Oniya

Actually, I think the Surnames section is a bit more directly applicable.
"Language was invented for one reason, boys - to woo women.~*~*~Don't think it's all been done before
And in that endeavor, laziness will not do." ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think we're never gonna win this war
Robin Williams-Dead Poets Society ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think your world's gonna fall apart
I do have a cause, though.  It's obscenity.  I'm for it.  - Tom Lehrer~*~All you need is your beautiful heart
O/O's Updated 5/11/21 - A/A's - Current Status! - Writing a novel - all draws for Fool of Fire up!
Requests updated March 17

NatalieB

Yeah, just to chime in.

It'd be easiest to think of him as having two surnames here.  When he's giving her full name he'll use the von - "Ich heiß' Sascha von Heinz".  But if there's a title and surname, the usual way is just using the second part - "Ich heiß' Herr Heinz".

"Herr von Heinz" would only really, in my experience, be used by a solidly upper class person as a signifier of that. 

Also, remember to use an article ("der" in your case) - "Ich bin der Heinz Sascha".

Of course, all of that may well be far too much information.

NatalieB

Quote from: NatalieB on May 17, 2012, 12:18:28 PM
Yeah, just to chime in.

It'd be easiest to think of him as having two surnames here.  When he's giving her full name he'll use the von - "Ich heiß' Sascha von Heinz".  But if there's a title and surname, the usual way is just using the second part - "Ich heiß' Herr Heinz".


Bah, cant see an edit button.  When he's giving his full name he'll etc.

Machete

Thanks for the help, guys.  I, probably. should have included that Sascha will enter a Bavarian's name in surname-first order if she's given the choice, in the first post.  Would she enter it as Heinz Sascha von, like a noble–which is how it's set up currently, or as von Heinz Sascha?

NatalieB

Ah, Sascha is a male name.  I suspect its illegal for it to be a female one.  Thats where I got "her" from.  Of course, it doesn't massively matter but it'll read very odd.

If you were to do that you'd be "die von Heinz, Sascha".

Nico

Quote from: NatalieB on May 17, 2012, 12:18:28 PM

Also, remember to use an article ("der" in your case) - "Ich bin der Heinz Sascha".

This is actually not correct. One doesn't use an article when introducing oneself. Gramatically not correct. It goes like: "Ich bin [name goes here]." or "Mein Name ist [name goes here]."

And nope, it's not illegal for a woman to be called Sascha. It is a legal shortening for the name "Alexandra", and while Sascha is more associated with males, it's not illegal here or in Germany. Uncommon, at best.

And, in this special case, she would introduce herself like. "I am Sacha von Heinz."

NatalieB

Man, I hate to get into an argument, but...

Sascha is definately illegal - I checked after writing it.  There are no names that apply to bothe genders - http://www.beliebte-vornamen.de/522-recht.htm

And using a surname/firstname order ALWAYS takes the definite article in the south.  I've never heard it outside the south but Machete said the character was Bavarian.

Nico

Quote from: NatalieB on May 17, 2012, 01:03:17 PM
Man, I hate to get into an argument, but...

Sascha is definately illegal - I checked after writing it.  There are no names that apply to bothe genders - http://www.beliebte-vornamen.de/522-recht.htm

And using a surname/firstname order ALWAYS takes the definite article in the south.  I've never heard it outside the south but Machete said the character was Bavarian.
Well, it says that gender neutral names are allowed.

And it also says that it's allowed, as long as there is another name that can be put clearly to one or the other gender. So, a woman could be called Sasha, with a second, clearly female name.

NatalieB

Of course, Machete, none of this is massively important and don't let it stop you.

Nicholas - True enough, but the character name is "Sascha von Heinz", and I really can't imagine any Standesamt allowing that for a female. 

Incidentally, the wikipedia links above also mention the definite article in names.

Nico

As long as it's just a character, I'd say that it's perfectly alright in the fantasy world. ~nodnod~

I know that some exotic names are a problem, or the insulting ones, but I know a guy who's called Andrea-Gabriel, because he's father's from Italy.

Oniya

Quote from: Nicholas on May 17, 2012, 01:19:31 PM
I know a guy who's called Andrea-Gabriel, because he's father's from Italy.

*winces*
"Language was invented for one reason, boys - to woo women.~*~*~Don't think it's all been done before
And in that endeavor, laziness will not do." ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think we're never gonna win this war
Robin Williams-Dead Poets Society ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think your world's gonna fall apart
I do have a cause, though.  It's obscenity.  I'm for it.  - Tom Lehrer~*~All you need is your beautiful heart
O/O's Updated 5/11/21 - A/A's - Current Status! - Writing a novel - all draws for Fool of Fire up!
Requests updated March 17

Nico

Quote from: Oniya on May 17, 2012, 01:22:41 PM
*winces*
I adore this name. Really. I always liked Gabriel, and Andrea is just wonderful. He gets some odd looks when he says his name, but I know that he loves it.

gaggedLouise

#14
If her birth name is Alexandra, then Alix or Alex would be the colloquial form. In Russian, Sasha can be a feminine short form of Alexandra or a masculine ditto of Alexander, so I'd reckon that's how it entered American usage, but not in German: Sascha is only masculine.

I'm not sure on name laws in Germany, and anyway the character could have been born outside of the country to German parents. People pick really strange names for their kids sometimes, but it's likely that a girl would get many curious glances if she introduced herself as Sascha in a German community and she herself was of a native German family.


Good girl but bad  -- Proud sister of the amazing, blackberry-sweet Violet Girl

Sometimes bound and cuntrolled, sometimes free and easy 

"I'm a pretty good cook, I'm sitting on my groceries.
Come up to my kitchen, I'll show you my best recipes"

gaggedLouise

#15
If you're looking for a name that would "pass" both as male and female - that is, one that could be given to a boy child without the parents having to be  a pair of eccentrics and still work for the same person as an adult female later in life - then Kim is double-gendered in many languages, including German. And Luis/Louis would work, if it's supposed that the bearer changed the spelling when she was around twenty. That's something you can legally do, and I don't think it actually requires any written proof of gender change for a person called Luis/Louis to add an -e in Germany, or here in Sweden. (Luise is the more native German form, but Louise is catching up).

Good girl but bad  -- Proud sister of the amazing, blackberry-sweet Violet Girl

Sometimes bound and cuntrolled, sometimes free and easy 

"I'm a pretty good cook, I'm sitting on my groceries.
Come up to my kitchen, I'll show you my best recipes"

NatalieB

Or, as Nicholas mentioned, you can add a gender specific name - Sascha-Christina von Heinz ("die Heinz, Sascha-Christina") for example -  and just introduce yourself as Sascha.  But it would definately raise eyebrows.

gaggedLouise

#17
I remember reading that the poet Rainer Maria Rilke (born in 1875) was originally called René Maria, but he changed the first of those names to Rainer after he had got a few books out. People he approached in letters would often think he was a lady. Now, René really is a boys' name, the female form is Renée, but there's not much difference when you say it - less in German than in English - and even people who replied to his own letters and gifts of books would address him as Fräulein (Miss).  :D


Good girl but bad  -- Proud sister of the amazing, blackberry-sweet Violet Girl

Sometimes bound and cuntrolled, sometimes free and easy 

"I'm a pretty good cook, I'm sitting on my groceries.
Come up to my kitchen, I'll show you my best recipes"

Machete

Would "mörtel", "mörser", or "speise" be a better translation of "mortar" when used as a code name?

NatalieB

As in the stuff that holds bricks together or the weapon?

Machete

weapon, as the character's a mutant.

gaggedLouise

Mörser has to be a word for the gun.

Good girl but bad  -- Proud sister of the amazing, blackberry-sweet Violet Girl

Sometimes bound and cuntrolled, sometimes free and easy 

"I'm a pretty good cook, I'm sitting on my groceries.
Come up to my kitchen, I'll show you my best recipes"