Same-Sex Marriage!

Started by Elandra, May 15, 2008, 08:39:10 PM

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Elandra

Split from https://elliquiy.com/forums/index.php?topic=15176.0 on Trieste's suggestion. Thank you hun. *hugs*

Quote from: Joseph911 on May 15, 2008, 08:30:00 PM
Replying to Goblin- I have a number of gay friends. Their orientation doesn't bother me, nor does their relationship. If they wanted to marry, I'd probably be happy for them. It's just the practice of gay marriage on the whole that worries me because of how it may further weaken the family structure of America's youth.

I would like to point out that gay unions tend to last MUCH longer than heterosexual ones and hence in many case would be a better family structure than the 50% of heterosexual marriages that end in divorce.
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Trieste

Woohoo! Yeah! *does a dance* Welcome to the new millenium, Cali! *salutes from across the country* God, I hope more states follow this example. The ban on same-sex marriages is ridiculous and a violation of the civil rights of those who are attracted to their own sex. You want to bring religion into it, bring it to your church... but sexuality is no reason to stand in the way of the rights of a legal spouse. It's ludicrous. Good for them!

Elvi

Quote from: Joseph911 on May 15, 2008, 08:30:00 PM
Replying to Goblin- I have a number of gay friends. Their orientation doesn't bother me, nor does their relationship. If they wanted to marry, I'd probably be happy for them. It's just the practice of gay marriage on the whole that worries me because of how it may further weaken the family structure of America's youth.

OOOOOOO.....Haven't seen the 'some of my best friends are' cop out in ages.
Please, tell me, how would a gay couples marrying 'weaken the family structure of American youth'?

Same sex 'marriages' are legal here and have been for a while and I really haven't seen any terrible impact, caused by that in our 'youth'.
It's been fun, but Elvi has now left the building

Moondazed

The family structure of the American family is, I believe, a political tool used to scare people into fear-based behavior.  What is this mythical beast?  Should divorce be outlawed, because I suspect it's had a hell of an affect on the mythical beast.  Maybe we shouldn't allow remarriage?  Surely step-parenting is bad for the beast as well.  I'm sorry, but I find the mythical structure of the American family to be nothing more than a political construct.
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Trieste

Quote from: Joseph911 on May 15, 2008, 09:14:41 PM
I wasn't referring to a mythical beast, and I'm sure as hell not going to perpetuate such a lame metaphor.

As for Elvi- I apologize if I used some sort of banal excuse. I'm only explaining the way I feel. If it's a cop-out, so be it. I could care less if other people use it as an excuse. I'm not saying I'm right. I do, however, apologize for speaking on a subject that I wasn't fully informed on. I went with the gut-reaction that I had to it, when I should have waited to think on it more.

It's a subject my fiancee and I have discussed at length in the past. I should have clarified this before-- homosexual couples raising children could undermine the traditional mother/father roles and values of our society. Gays marrying wasn't my issue, sorry.

Now I'll wait for someone to argue about how I'm wrong about that too.

I did a quick Google for disvorce stats. Couldn't find hard numbers because I don't have time to sort through all the info I found. I DID find a report from the CDC (again, don't have the time to hunt down census info, so I'm going with the data I found) here: http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/series/sr_23/sr23_022.pdf

I'm going to leave the divorce rate out of it since I couldn't find the hard numbers to back up that argument, but I will call attention to table C on that report, noting that 49% of the women interviewed are married but not cohabitating. That is a huge percentage of women who have husbands and don't live with them. I wonder what that does to traditional mother/father relationships?

Second, I'm the product of a single-parent household. I first met my biological father at age 14 - and my parents divorced by the time I was 4. They had separated by the time I was 3. My mother remarried when I was 16... that's 12 years without a solid father figure in the traditional sense. Yeah, it was hard, but what exactly are you implying that I'm missing? Where am I damaged so much that you would call into question a whole demographic's civil rights?

I'd also encourage you to take a look at the demographics of convicted criminals. They have roughly the same demographic of single-parent versus two-parent households as others of their socioeconomic standing.

I'm not saying there are no merits to the arguments against same-sex marriage. I am saying that you are making vague stabs in the dark in an attempt to argue against it. Your personal opinion is yours, and you are allowed to it; I would never ever say otherwise. But you are trying to couch personal opinion in facts and oblique references, and that is where you're wrong.

Caeli

I'm glad that California (my state <3) has followed Massachusett's example. I've always rather thought that the ban on same-sex marriage was kind of ridiculous - what's wrong with two people of the same sex who want to get married? If you don't get into the "Bible says it's wrong" argument, there is very few valid arguments against it.

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Elvi

Quote from: Joseph911 on May 15, 2008, 09:14:41 PM
I wasn't referring to a mythical beast, and I'm sure as hell not going to perpetuate such a lame metaphor.

As for Elvi- I apologize if I used some sort of banal excuse. I'm only explaining the way I feel. If it's a cop-out, so be it. I could care less if other people use it as an excuse. I'm not saying I'm right. I do, however, apologize for speaking on a subject that I wasn't fully informed on. I went with the gut-reaction that I had to it, when I should have waited to think on it more.

It's a subject my fiancee and I have discussed at length in the past. I should have clarified this before-- homosexual couples raising children could undermine the traditional mother/father roles and values of our society. Gays marrying wasn't my issue, sorry.

Now I'll wait for someone to argue about how I'm wrong about that too.

In what way do you believe it will undermine mother/father roles?

And if you don't mind me asking, how old are you exactly?
(Yes it is relavent as I am interested in seeing what age group actually thinks this)
It's been fun, but Elvi has now left the building

Trieste

All age groups, Elvi. I live in Massachusetts, and I've heard the same argument from schoolmates in high school all the way up to older people I've worked/talked with... and that's in the first state to actually recognize this. *helpless shrug* At least older people remember when the same thing was said about allowing interracial marriage. Younger people don't even have that experience to fall back on.

Elvi

*nods*
Yes hypocrisy and ignorance is an all age encompassing pastime.

I actually meant to say:

(Yes it is relevant as I am interested in seeing what age group you are to actually thinks this.)
It's been fun, but Elvi has now left the building

Moondazed

Forgive me if my analogy offended.  I guess a relevant question would be, what is your concept of the American family structure?
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Moondazed

Thank you for the clear clarification :)  I can offer examples with different outcomes, but I'm sure you know that they exist. 
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Moondazed

:)  Well... I'm sorry if you took my post as saying that you're an ignorant bigot.  I think that the art of debate is one that's dying, sadly.  I think it's a good thing to state your views, just know that someone is going to ask why you have them :)  To be honest, I very much like to hear from people with different views from mine because they offer me an opportunity to see things from a different perspective.  Not that they'll change my mind ;)  Seriously, though, respectful discourse is a beautiful thing :)
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Trieste

I got heated, and I sincerely apologize if you felt personally attacked. Anything further I offer up as an explanation is going to sound like shallow justification, so I won't get into it other than this: show me facts. Show me figures. Show me the 'fancy statistics' that show what a detriment same-sex marriage or couples are to children's upbringing. Show me that you're coming from a place other than sitting back in your chair, shaking your head and saying "That just isn't right". It's difficult to assume you're not putting up just a knee-jerk reaction to this when all you're posting is "This is a detriment to children" but not where that's coming from.

Moondazed

OMG, I absolutely agree that political correctness is the cause!  Clear, factual, non-confrontational discourse is SO hard to find!  Trust me, I can get heated in a heartbeat and I've posted in that state before, but in the end the only thing that stops us/them mentality is trying to understand who 'them' is on a personal level.

Not to hijack :) 

I'm curious, do you have the same issues with other relationship structures, such as polyamory?
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Moondazed

She's not the only one who asks for proof :)  Generally speaking, it's good to have factual information behind one's decisions.  I won't be hijacking this thread by answering your comments about my question.  If anyone would like to discuss it, it should be a new thread ;)
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Cherri Tart

*Hugs Joeseph*  that was just because my knee jerk reaction was to attack you too, and that's not right - thanks for sticking it out and trying to clarify your opinion - mine happens to differ, but that doesn't mean we can't talk civily here like family - we might disagree, but that doesn't mean we don't love one another.  :) 

ok, that said, please don't consider this an attack, either, but it really clarifies my feeling so the subject of gay parents... you stated:

As for the children, they're confused as to which parent has what role in the family, and given the transient nature of some homosexual relationships, some of them haven't even had the same parents for their entire childhood. That's a problem all single parent households have when it comes to bringing a new lover into the equation. When it happens in homosexual households, it just makes it worse because the new partner may not be feminine like the old one was, suddenly resulting in two father figures that are actually women instead of the previous mother and father figure that was actually a woman.

In my circle of friends, i know too many who would answer this with the following - it's easy to tell which parent has what role in the family... the father is the one raping you when your 11 while the mother has the role of making excues for him.  Sorry if that was a bit graphic, but no maybe you can see why i tend to disagree with your statement.  Also, my best friend in the world has been with the same man for 8 years now, despite his being terminally ill with AIDS, something that requires an incredible amount of commitment and love.  Something, i know from experience, doesn't always happen in heterosexual relationships.   

Respectfully,
Cherri
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Trieste

#17
Mirroring moondazed's question, and...

Okay. So you don't want to dig through piles of statistics, despite the fact that you're getting a degree in them. (As a fellow student, I want cosmic credit for not commenting on that one. I'll ask you why you're minoring in something you don't enjoy some other time. :P) But where is your advocacy for more stringent multi-sex regulation? Where is the cry for a waiting period or a screening process for giving birth? The civil union debate brings in the spectre of good ol' Jim Crow, but you're not even advocating separate but equal... you're advocating stricter standards for someone based on orientation. Not drug use. Not parental competency. Not patience. Not love. Not any of the qualities one needs to give a child a safe and happy home.

As for 'transient nature', I have two words for you: Britney Spears. How about some more words: 24-hour marriage. How about the extreme overload of the foster system in the US? The point I'm trying to make is that multi-sex couples are just as transient, just as volatile, and they currently have the legal right to marry, have children, then bruise, cut, molest, and cut down their children until someone catches them and steps in. How is that anywhere close to fair and impartial, which is what our legal system swears it strives to be? If you're arguing for the sake of the children, how do you protect all of them? And on what basis do you say they won't get a good home if they live with two women (or men) instead of a man and a woman? You say you've seen it firsthand, but you must have seen the results of broken multi-sex homes, as well. Does that mean you just don't want people together at all? Where is the line?

Quote from: Joseph911 on May 15, 2008, 11:18:12 PM
Among married individuals, yes. The entire point of marriage is to swear yourself to that person, and that person alone. If you go into a marriage with the understanding that you'll both be seeing other people, or somehow marrying more than one person, then it's not a big of a deal. On the other hand, I wouldn't call that a true marriage.

Are you trying to say that open relationships aren't 'real' marriages? Should they still then have the right to marry? Because they do, right now, under the legal system. The individual vows are also determined by the people getting married.

I ask again, where is the line?

Edit: Typos, typos, everywhere.

MadPanda

Quote from: Joseph911 on May 15, 2008, 11:13:43 PM
I'm sorry. I go through piles of a statistics every day (minoring in sociology), so when I come online, I tend to leave that behind. As I said before, I was basing it on the experience I've had with a number of children raised in homosexual households, not an overall sampling of the population, which is why my perception of the issue could be skewed.

A few questions to consider, then:

How many children, exactly?  What's the sample size?
How in depth were these studies?  Long term?  Short term?
Were other factors considered in the results?
How complete is your experience with this?  Did you draw your sweeping conclusions only from the statistics, or have you gotten out in the field?
Got background in child development or psychology?  Social work?

This is not a social science forum, but I have a feeling that if you visited one and played devil's advocate like this, the pros would hand you your ears on a plate.
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MadPanda

Your response is most illuminating.

Have you tried to learn by simply asking questions, rather than by playing devil's advocate?
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RubySlippers

I frankly think with a divorce rate over 50% and so many hetro couples living out of marriage why the hell do we have marriage laws anymore? Why not keep them personal contracts and have religious ceremonies seperate if desired for the "marriage" part. I mean my folks were married many years but they are the odd ones of the people we know so I suppose it can work but why bother now just end marriage as anything more than a contract between two or more persons gay shave been doing that for years. I have a big stack of forms to give my partner and I the many benefits we need and live as a couple, just do that.

Trieste

Quote from: Joseph911 on May 15, 2008, 11:47:15 PM
[...] something to distinguish it from a marriage involving people who have enough discipline and love to actually stay committed to one person for their entire life.

And you'd managed to get all this way without a personal attack. Bad form. For shame.

For the rest of it, if I'm following correctly, you're advocating marriage for the sake of procreation. That's the reason for it, the yardstick by which you measure fitness to marry. What, then, of those couples who will not or cannot have children? Should their marriages also be earmarked as different from a traditional one man, one woman, 2.45 children? And if your answer is to differentiate between couples who cannot have children ("not their fault") and those who will not ("their choice"), then why not have all people allowed to marry whatever consenting adult they choose, and just have a child-ed and child-free demarcation for hetero- and homosexual couples?

You're broadening the scopes, not drawing a line. You've also said nothing about multi-sex couples who are mired in drug addiction, family violence, disease, homelessness, unemployment, alcoholism... and you will see a lot of this if you go into social work.

Cherri Tart

Quote from: Joseph911 on May 15, 2008, 11:35:30 PM
Having said that, I must point out one thing. You said "in your circle of friends". I'm sorry to hear that men are such raging assholes in your circle friends, but that's you speaking from your personal experience. I was doing the same thing with the 'children raised by gay parents' example. I wasn't saying I was right across the board; rather, I was simply explaining how I had come to form an opinion I have on the subject. Men aren't violent brutes everywhere, and children raised by homosexuals aren't always confused. You can disagree with my statement based on your personal experience, but I was referring to things on the whole, not exclusively within your circle of friends. I can definitely see why you'd disagree with it though.

*nods* i agree, this is just my personal experience at work here and my opinion, i just wanted to show that there are two sides to every coin and that it's important to take a look at both of them.  I also have had the privledge of being raised by a wonderful father in a one parent home after my mom died when i was 10.  He wasn't perfect, but he tried very hard.  I don't think that 2 moms or 2 dads are better then a mom and a dad, or just a mom or a dad - i just think that they are all potentially as good or as bad as any other combination.  It's all about the individuals.
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Kazyth

Quote from: Joseph911 on May 15, 2008, 11:47:15 PM
One thing-

"Are you trying to say that open relationships aren't 'real' marriages? Should they still then have the right to marry? Because they do, right now, under the legal system. The individual vows are also determined by the people getting married."

Yes, I am saying they aren't real marriages, and no, they should not have the right to marry--not legally, anyway. If some religious ceremony would satisfy them, then so be it, but I don't think it should be a legally binding ceremony. As for the vows themselves--if you want to change the vows of marriage, then change the name as well. Or at least have the marriage certificate specify "open-ended marriage"...something to distinguish it from a marriage involving people who have enough discipline and love to actually stay committed to one person for their entire life.

What is wrong with it being a legally binding ceremony?  The aspect that involves "Love, Honor, Cherish" one person for the rest of your life isn't law related, that is religion right there.  Why does it offend enough that it  'should be' changed?  To avoid being 'lumped in with them'?  Does having two people who have room in their hearts for more than one partner for the rest of their lives get a marriage certificate somehow lessen the marriages of those who don't?  Monogamy isn't for everyone.  Discipline has nothing to do with it.  If you can love only one person like that forever, that is just how you are.  If you can't, you can't.  What gives anyone the right to tell them that their love or their marriage means less, and has to have a different title to prove it?
A rose by any other name... still has thorns you can prick someone with. - Me.


Sherona

Quote from: RubySlippers on May 15, 2008, 11:55:58 PM
I frankly think with a divorce rate over 50% and so many hetro couples living out of marriage why the hell do we have marriage laws anymore? Why not keep them personal contracts and have religious ceremonies seperate if desired for the "marriage" part. I mean my folks were married many years but they are the odd ones of the people we know so I suppose it can work but why bother now just end marriage as anything more than a contract between two or more persons gay shave been doing that for years. I have a big stack of forms to give my partner and I the many benefits we need and live as a couple, just do that.


I have to say..reading this thread (and yes I know that it is not intended in this fashion) but I guess I need to just go tell my husband that we might as well just divorce and go our separate ways.

that being said, I think screw statistics. I could give a rats ass that the divorce rate between heterocouple is 50%. I dont think thats becasue they are heterosexual...I think thats because of people jumping in too soon. Frankly I dont think Heterosexual relationships are any better then Homosexual relationships, AND vice versus.

Let them marry...why should my mother-in-law not be covered under her partners insurance the way she would have been if she had been married to a man?

In the flip side of things..Not all heterosexual couples deal with abuse, rape, etc and so forth...

I really dont think anyone was actually trying to imply that Hetero was just a horrible horrible relationship to be in rather then just proving a point...but still felt compelled to post :P

Trieste

I do apologise if my posts are coming off as holier-than-thou. I did not mean them in that fashion, but my writing style is kinda formal. It's from all the lab reports; you'll get used to it. :)

"Multi-sex couple" - I can use 'hetero couple' if you like. It's a couple with one man and one woman, in this case. Or, if we're discussing polyamory, many men... many women... any combination of the two. You know. Whatever.

Cherri Tart

really, for me, all it comes down to is that i want to be treated like anyone else - anyone who isn't gay has very little idea of what it's like to be gay - dealing with being a second rate citizen in all too many cases.  Really, how many times do i have to hear 'i don't care what they do as long as long as they don't shove it in our faces or much, much worse (yes, i have been told that God hates me, et al, more then once in my life and i live in the SF bay area!)

Really, i am a person too.  i fell in love with another girl - i didn't plan it that way - in many respects its made my life more difficult, but it's what happened.  And if, at some point, we decide that we want to spend the rest of our life together, i just want to the opportunity to do so without prejudice. 
you were never able to keep me breathing as the water rises up again



O/O, Cherri Flavored

Trieste

Aw, shucks. I can't debate with flattery or Photoshop! Not without firing up PS myself, but ... lazy.

*hugs Cherri, just for kicks* :)

Elvi

Joseph, from what I have seen of your discussion, you have argued yourself around to saying that you believe a couple, no matter what the sexual orientation, should be stable.

I don't think anyone here would really take issue on that. Unfortunately and for many reasons, it doesn't always work and you have seen examples of that here.
Cherri lost her mother at an early age and her father had to take on both roles.
Trieste's parents split up and her mother had to take on both roles for a large portion of her childhood years.
My own story is that I was divorced after 15 years and left with an 18 month old daughter and met my new partner when she was a little over 2 years old, her 'step father' is a far better role model than her real father would have ever been.

And yet, in comparison, of the four stable homosexual relationships, which can be compared, I know only one has broken up.
(In the longest they have been together now for over 30 years, the shortest coming up to 10)     

Children need stability, sometimes that comes from two parents, aunts and uncles, grandparents, a single mother or father, a gay couple, a careworker in a local home.
In my mind it makes no difference at all who gives a child that stability, what matters is that they get it.

However, I would take issue on the idea that men and women, in either a gay or heterosexual relationship (either married or living as man and wife), should be pigeon holed.
It seems to me that you are saying that there MUST be a male and female role model, whether in a heterosexual or homosexual relationship and it doesn't really work that way.

Many women are now the 'bread winners', while many fathers choose to take over the running of the house and bring up children.
Many men now do far more housework than was traditionally expected of them in the fifties and sixties.
Even more choose to share the burden of the drudge in life and the caring of their children.

Why should this not apply also to homosexual 'two dad/two mum' relationships, why does there have to be a feminine male or a masculine female?
Things are changing, in both the heterosexual and homosexual worlds, people need to begin to think out of the box and not judge what a person is today based on what they were 30/50 years ago.


 
It's been fun, but Elvi has now left the building

Celestial Goblin

QuoteReplying to Goblin- I have a number of gay friends. Their orientation doesn't bother me, nor does their relationship. If they wanted to marry, I'd probably be happy for them. It's just the practice of gay marriage on the whole that worries me because of how it may further weaken the family structure of America's youth.
Oh god, the 'I've got a number of gay friends' response is so old, it's practically a joke.
To answer it, they might be your friends, but if you act to stop them from getting marriage rights, you aren't their friend.

As far as the family stuff, it's artificial panic created for political reasons. A family doesn't become less stable because two people of same gender are together.
And frankly, family and marriage are a very important thing to many people. They tap into a very basic psychological need and despite, as Ruby mentioned, many current heterosexual marriages being flimsy, it's not worth to get rid of it.

As for situation of kids with homosexual parents, there are two issues:
1) marriage and adoption are two different issues
2) even if having gay parents would be somehow worse(which I have good reasons to believe is not the case), it still beats being an orphan.

And the 'gay marriage will lead to polygamy' bit? Same as letting people practice Christianity and Buddhism will lead to satanic death cults demanding they get recognition too...

ShrowdedPoet

Here is an article that really pissed me off!  The people who wrote it acted like gay was a sickening crime.

http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewCulture.asp?Page=/Culture/archive/200805/CUL20080516c.html
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Elvi

Quote from: Joseph911 on May 16, 2008, 10:03:29 AM
<snip>
in fact, if you'd care to read a little more closely, you'll notice that I said gay marriage would actually hopefully strengthen the relationships between homosexuals.

Why would it?
Marriage doesn't seem to have strengthened the bonds between almost half the heterosexual marriages.
Homosexual people are simply that, people, they make mistakes and bad decisions along with the rest of us.
It's been fun, but Elvi has now left the building

Cherri Tart

Quote from: ShrowdedPoet on May 16, 2008, 09:34:58 AM
Here is an article that really pissed me off!  The people who wrote it acted like gay was a sickening crime.

http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewCulture.asp?Page=/Culture/archive/200805/CUL20080516c.html

why is it that people are so full of hate?  Shouldn't love be celebrated, no matter who it is between?  This makes me a sad kitten.
you were never able to keep me breathing as the water rises up again



O/O, Cherri Flavored

Sherona

Quote from: ShrowdedPoet on May 16, 2008, 09:34:58 AM
Here is an article that really pissed me off!  The people who wrote it acted like gay was a sickening crime.

http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewCulture.asp?Page=/Culture/archive/200805/CUL20080516c.html

I strongly Disagree with the article's writer opinion. I believe that if that person really wanted to represent the crowd of "Marriage is 1 man 1 woman" opinion he should have done a better job of it rather then coming off bigotted. Though really, the whole argument kind of doesnt hold much water and is just bigotted imo.

However I stand by his right to have his opinion...I just wish people on both sides of the fence would think before they publish rants and what not because they are affecting (effecting?) their whole side.

Just to be clear I am all for same-sex Marriages, I am not supporting the side that says marriage is an institute between a man and a woman and not between a man and a man etc and so forth. Just stating people with opinions who do not know how to properly phrase their opinions HURT their arguments more then help. And he calls himself an Editor..

Elvi

I'm afraid that you need to stick to one actual stance here Joseph, one minute you are saying that 'gays' aren't like normal 'people' and they shouldn't be allowed to marry because it will ruin America's youth, the next you are saying that you are all for it, it's like trying to discuss something with a faulty barometer.

Your last post now completely contradicts what your initial post said, which actually spawned this discussion.

Tell you what, lets forget the post that I made about this, just above Celestial's, because I have a feeling that you will simply change your tack once more and everything will become even more confused.

Hell....I daren't even ask what you think of people cohabitating, when you have this opinion of marriage.
It's been fun, but Elvi has now left the building

Celestial Goblin

Quote from: Joseph911 on May 16, 2008, 10:03:29 AM
Who said gay marriage will lead to polygamy?

I thought that photoshop you made was a humorous attempt to mention that popular accusation.

Cherri Tart

Quote from: Celestial Goblin on May 16, 2008, 10:27:22 AM
I thought that photoshop you made was a humorous attempt to mention that popular accusation.

actually, being in a gay relationship has cured me of my polygamous ways... the girl beats me if i even think of sleeping with a guy! *pouts* 
you were never able to keep me breathing as the water rises up again



O/O, Cherri Flavored

ShrowdedPoet

#37
Quote from: Joseph911 on May 16, 2008, 10:03:29 AM
Who said gay marriage will lead to polygamy? I sure didn't, and I'm sure no one else here would make that argument. We were discussing polyamory as a seperate issue, but I never linked the two; in fact, if you'd care to read a little more closely, you'll notice that I said gay marriage would actually hopefully strengthen the relationships between homosexuals.

huh?
Kiss the hand that beats you.
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Moondazed

I think a lot of kneejerk reactions to things like samesex marriage and polyamory are based in fear of the unknown.  Regardless of what 'marriage'TM is to a given individual, in the present day it's a piece of paper that allows two people to share medical benefits and gain life partner rights, at its core.  Those rights should absolutely be granted to alternative relationships!  Marriage is about commitment and lots of other things to different people, but the bottom line, and one of the main reasons I'm so strongly for samesex marriage, is life partner rights.  How about if we consider everyone's feeling and define marriage as a legally binding contract granting life partner rights?  Why does it have to include religious connotations or definitions of who can and can't do it?  What if it was treated as a license, and there were penalties for entering into it fraudulently just like there are penalties for putting a license plate on a car it isn't registered to? :) 

I've been with my husband for 12 years, and until 6 months ago he'd been in the throes of a 5 year depression during which he pretty much shut down.  Don't presume to talk to me about my commitment level.  I stayed and supported him and went through a lot of things that most people would have considered grounds for divorce.  The conversation that needs to be had is about what true, committed love is, because it's not some illusory structure that has Ward and June Cleaver's faces taped to it, imo.
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Trieste

That's sort of what it boils down to. See...

.<----Religion goes here           Law goes here --------------------------------->.

Pretty simple. The problem is that you have a legal term, 'marriage' ... and you have a religious ceremony, also called 'marriage'. That seems to be what is confusing things. If we'd just change the term to 'civil union' or something like it and leave marriage to the preachers, I don't think we'd have half the problems with this debate that we do have.

And at the risk of sounding like a rhetoric-machine, the Pledge is 'one nation, [under God,] indivisible, with liberty and justice for all" (emphasis mine, in case that isn't clear). How can we do the whole 'united we stand' thing if something as silly as two consenting adults getting married splits us so much? It's preposterous. We have bigger things toward which we should be directing the social, legal, and political energies spent on this stupid debate. It's stupid. It's civil rights, not civil liberties, and it's insane and asinine that people should put so much time and effort into fighting against something that doesn't affect them. Don't like gay marriage? I suggest you don't marry another person of your sex. For those that want to, what's the harm to you? ('You' being general, here, in the sense of the french 'vous' or spanish 'usted'... we need a word like that in English.)

Moondazed

And at the risk of sounding like an even worse rhetoric machine, the under God was added later ;)
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Trieste

S'why it's in brackets. Some say it, some don't, and it's not important to the point, so I didn't worry about it too much. :)

Moondazed

Sorry... couldn't resist :)  I liked your graphic, by the way (or whatever you call picture made from characters)
~*~ Sexual Orientation: bi ~*~ BDSM Orientation: switch ~*~ Ons and Offs ~*~ Active Stories ~*~

Jester

I have a lesbian cousin, Amy,  and went to her wedding with her partner last year.

She recently gave birth to a baby girl after sending an email to the family saying she did not want to disclose how....

She has stuck a label on her parents toilet seat saying "I am gay get over it." 

Her father trained to be a Catholic Priest but stopped when he met my Auntie. He has taken it very well even though he is extremely Catholic. My Auntie has found it very difficult and is now in Counselling. She has fallen out with my mother and father which i think is because she is finding it so hard and i suppose my parents arent really helping.  My other cousin is also gay but hasnt told his parents yet because he has seen the effect his sister has had.

My grandmother is upset because my cousin Amy has told her that she cant give her grandchild a bible with the old testament in. Because its Homophobic. Which quite frankly is censorship.

I must admit i agree with a lot of my parents problems with same sex marriages, and also same sex parents. I have seen the damage it does to a family. Not because its bad but because its difficult to understand and well... its not the norm.

I am a fence sitter I am afraid and hate hearing either side of the story because i am able to see both sides. I have had bi experiences in my life so i can understand but its a shame because there will be people who dont understand.

Moondazed

Any time one steps outside the norm they risk situations where people who are supposed to love them can't put their interests first.  That may sound harsh, but that's how I see it.  If one of my son's (or both!) told me they were gay I would accept them just as they are, I have absolutely no doubt.  To do otherwise is not to give them the unconditional love that a loving mother OWES her child.  Sadly, too many parents are self-centered and too scared of what others will think or say to stand beside their child.  That's what makes me sad.  The problems you describe are problems with our stupid fucking lemming society, not with your cousin who happened to fall in love with a woman.

Realizing that that's strongly worded, let me clarify that it's not a personal attack.  It drives me crazy when parents are too caught up in themselves to love their children the way children deserve to be loved.
~*~ Sexual Orientation: bi ~*~ BDSM Orientation: switch ~*~ Ons and Offs ~*~ Active Stories ~*~

Trieste

I can see the fenceness. I can't blame a parent for not wanting to expose their child to something that's used to justify protests against their way of life every single day. On the other hand, you let the child read (or let them find it) and you discuss it with them. You can't censor your child from the world... not even close. But I can see the need to try.

Moondazed

I can see sheltering a child from things you consider offensive or inappropriate until they're old enough to understand what they're reading and why you find it offensive.  I'm Pagan, but I talk to my kids about beliefs from a stance of, "Here's what I believe, and here's what other people believe."  It's my job to be aware enough of what others believe to give my kids a balanced idea of what's going on outside of our little town (which is incredibly Baptist *cringe*).  I do NOT present my opinion as the right one, I discuss what the options are and why I believe what I do, but I don't talk badly about people who believe otherwise.  For a while my teenager decided he was a Satanist and I maintained my stance, not telling him that he was wrong, but instead pointing out where I thought his actions were unacceptable.  Truthfully, I was really surprised at how he dealt with it... he read books and really does know what Satanism is based in.  Something I tell him frequently is that I don't think that everyone who does things differently than I do is wrong, but if I thought they were right I'd be doing it their way instead ;)

This relates to the samesex marriage issue in that I don't feel that I have the right to deny someone life partner rights whether I think their sexual choices are correct or not (for the record, I'm bisexual, if that has any bearing).
~*~ Sexual Orientation: bi ~*~ BDSM Orientation: switch ~*~ Ons and Offs ~*~ Active Stories ~*~

Elvi

QuoteFor a while my teenager decided he was a Satanist and I maintained my stance, not telling him that he was wrong, but instead pointing out where I thought his actions were unacceptable.  Truthfully, I was really surprised at how he dealt with it... he read books and really does know what Satanism is based in.

I have had the same with Beasty, she is into voodoo and has learned a lot about the actual religion, not the bad PR, however, when she learned that it was partially based upon Christianity, it sort of turned her off.

She, like all other children should be, pushes the limits, tests the boundaries and works out what is going to be right for her.
(Though I think that it infuriates her that she can't seem to find anything to shock us with, but she is still trying her hardest.....*grins*)
It's been fun, but Elvi has now left the building

Trieste

I feel sorry for any kids I might have. I was able to shock my dad by wearing a cloak to high school school on a regular basis and wearing white mascara with blue lipstick. Although I think my mother wasn't as shocked as she let on ... merely amused. But not really amused because it upset my dad so much and that's never very amusing for the wife.

Hunter

All I'm going to say is that I'm one of those uptight conservatives.

*wraps hisself in a cloak (Yes, I have one!) and returns under his rock*

Moondazed

I'd honestly like to know why, Hunter... what your reasons for feeling that way are.
~*~ Sexual Orientation: bi ~*~ BDSM Orientation: switch ~*~ Ons and Offs ~*~ Active Stories ~*~

Hunter

Quote from: moondazed on May 16, 2008, 11:34:52 PM
I'd honestly like to know why, Hunter... what your reasons for feeling that way are.

The short version being that I'd studied various philosophies/religions in college and finally picked the one that I thought made the most sense.

Moondazed

"the one"?  I'm not sure what you're referring to.
~*~ Sexual Orientation: bi ~*~ BDSM Orientation: switch ~*~ Ons and Offs ~*~ Active Stories ~*~

Hunter

Quote from: moondazed on May 17, 2008, 12:01:20 AM
"the one"?  I'm not sure what you're referring to.

The philosophy/viewpoint/religion/etc.

Elandra

And what is the long version Hunter? I am curious now.

Also am curious if your beliefs are set in stone or do you feel they adjust over time?
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Hunter

Quote from: elandra on May 17, 2008, 12:26:01 AM
And what is the long version Hunter? I am curious now.

Also am curious if your beliefs are set in stone or do you feel they adjust over time?

The long version, let's see.

I was raised Catholic but didn't really follow it (i.e. only Christmas and Easter).  I went to public school so when I graduated, I was fairly liberal in my viewpoints.  Let's see...went to a "public" college (University of Cincinnati) originally as a secondary mathematics teacher.   During my studies there, I engaged in quite a bit (several years worth) of research into various religions (and yes, Humanism is a religion), philosophies, etc before settling on a conservative christian one.

And yes, they're fairly set by now.

Celestial Goblin

How do you reconcile your conservative Christian philosophy with writing erotic fiction?

Elvi

This seems to have wondered way off topic, perhaps one of the Sirens could split it (again)?....*smiles*
It's been fun, but Elvi has now left the building

Celestial Goblin

No need, I was just being snippy. Sorry Hunter. :P