Performance Enhancers and Pro Sports

Started by Callie Del Noire, August 11, 2013, 08:54:38 PM

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Callie Del Noire

Okay, maybe I'm a bit old..and recall when the Baseball League chairman banned Pete Rose from Baseball and YET we have multiple cases of Baseball Players (and other sports players) using drugs to cheat the system as well BUT they get off with relatively short times out (a year or so) and fines that when you look at the fines vs their income.. financial stings.

I would like to see some lifetime bans come down. No fine will be real, no 'X # of games' ban will make anyone consider NOT doing it. You need to toss out a 'banned for life' and a HUGE fine of MILLIONS to a few of these guys to make the other players realize that they can lose something. 

I got this outlook listening to some sports writer blaming the FANS for this stuff. His arguement was we keep expecting more and more from our players. BS. They are looking to last longer, perform better, and do more. Better stats mean more endorsements, and to push their limits they do more with performance enhancers.

So, pro-leagues.. do one of two things. Either come down hard on your dopers.. or put out and 'accepted usage' list and reveal who is doing what.

Me.. I say ban a few guys..and suddenly the others will think twice before trying anything.


For example.

http://www.cnn.com/2013/08/08/us/alex-rodriguez-suspension-appeal

Oniya

I have this discussion with Mr. Oniya all the time.  Two points he always brings up:

1) Steroids have a prescription use of reducing inflammation, speeding the healing process.  A doctor trying to help get a player back to doing his job could end up costing him his career.  This almost happened to U.Ga student, Kolton Houston.
2) Players who were not doing anything illegal at the time they were playing are being stigmatized when it comes out that they used steroids.  Roger Clemens will forever be linked to steroid use, will probably not make it into the Hall of Fame as a result, and at the time that he was injected, steroids were perfectly legal to use.

Mind you, I think that they should put a warning label on the things, like they do cigarettes:  Warning!  Will shrink your nuts to the size of the ones in your Cracker Jack!  See how many teenage boys go for them after learning that.
"Language was invented for one reason, boys - to woo women.~*~*~Don't think it's all been done before
And in that endeavor, laziness will not do." ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think we're never gonna win this war
Robin Williams-Dead Poets Society ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think your world's gonna fall apart
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gaggedLouise

#2
In track and field, where there's been a long, long string of doping scandals, rumours and busts, from Ben Johnson (long before him, of course, but he's become the biggest poster name of steroids) to Tyson Gay, it really risks undercutting the whole stature of these disciplines, both to athletes, spectators, sponsors and everybody else involved. I mean, anyone who achieves outstanding results in running, jumping, hammer throwing or anything of the kind now incurs suspicions with some people that they must have been doped. And when the next big name is tested positive for something - and it doesn't have to be steroids or amphetamin - it serves to convince some of these that "yeah, everybody's doing it!"

I watched Usain Bolt winning another strong 100 m race last night, at the championships in Moscow, under difficult circumstances - heavy rain and unfavourable wind. The guy's amazing of course, and in London he almost made the entire field behind him look like second class compared to himself. Some people would say he's just too good to be true, and 'there's something fishy about tiny Jamaica bringing out so many top-rate runners'. I am fairly sure he is not (and hasn't been) taking any illegal substances, but there's a limit to how far the records can be pressed down in most track and field events, no one's going to run 100 meters at under 8.50 unless it's a half-human half-robot, and if those events are going to remain viable and exciting, I think spectators and sports media will have to stop defining the greatness of a day on the arena just by, were there any new world records, or even broken national records? At some point there isn't going to be a whole lot of space to push actual world records - not in events that depend 99% on just the body resources of the single athlete - and if anyone who could score new records invites talk of doping, it puts those events in a bit of a fix.


Good girl but bad  -- Proud sister of the amazing, blackberry-sweet Violet Girl

Sometimes bound and cuntrolled, sometimes free and easy 

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elone

I have to say that I am in agreement with Callie Del Noire in the belief that all performance enhancing drugs or any other procedure that gives an athlete an advantage over another should result in a lifetime ban. Of course, a procedure need to be put in place that leaves no doubt that the individual was using a banned substance. Right now, I don't believe that testing is adequate or foolproof. I don't know if A Rod or the others actually tested positive or if it was the testimony and records of those who provided the drugs that led to their suspensions. Until a means of testing is foolproof and definitive, it is hard to put a lifetime ban on anyone.

One thing is clear however, and that is that those who do not use such means are the ones who are hurt by those that do. Perhaps the players unions should think about those athletes as much as they do the cheaters.

As for fans, I don't think that fans, in particular baseball fans where records are kept for so many categories, are rabid enough to just look at records without regard to how they are achieved. If at some point, track and field athletes hit a wall, so be it. Unless we get to the point where all those in a race are running a dead heat, there will still be a winner of a race.

It is a sad commentary on all sports when cheating the system, whether for fame or monetary gain, becomes more important than the event.
In the end, all we have left are memories.

Roleplays: alive, done, dead, etc.
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Cyrano Johnson

Funny, I was just thinking about this the other day.

Here's the thing. There's two kinds of sport you can have:

1. You can have sport that's about the healthy, wholesome enjoyment of the game, beating your personal best and revelling in the challenge of facing off against other athletes doing the same thing.

2. You can have sport that's about the grand spectacle of infinite perfectability of human power and ability, about cash and endorsements and the Big Event that draws millions, or billions, in to watch from across [such-and-such] country and around the world.

What you cannot have is both of them at the same time. Model #1 just isn't compatible with producing spectacles on the order demanded by model #2. And the thing is: we all know that people aren't going to tune in by the millions to watch model #1 in action, because why should they? They're already doing it on their local softball field or football pitch. The model that drives broadcast and big-budget sporting events is model #2.

There was a certain span of time in the Twentieth Century where you could pretend that the standards of model #1 could be fruitfully applied to model #2. But we're past that, decades past it, because the baseline human body is not infinitely perfectible without help, without technology, and yes, without performance enhancers. When the top half of the field in the Tour de France is distinguishable from the bottom half by who's juicing and who isn't, that's a clear signal that model #2 has left model #1 behind. They're just no longer in the same league.

When you realize this, there comes to seem a certain ugly hypocrisy about continuing to demand that model #2 should be held to the moral standards of model #1, when they're no longer about the same things. Call it "blaming the fans" if you want, but the fans, the endorsement machine, the stats-driven broadcast media, the entire edifice of professional sport is set up to prioritize results above all and drive forward spectacle above all. Doing so and then carrying out periodic witch hunts about "performance enhancement" is not morality; it's a lie. All it does is punish those who don't have the technology to beat the current testing regime, and reward those who do. It's not catching all the so-called "cheaters" and there is no prospect of its doing so.

So, it's time for a reality check. Is model #1 what you, as a fan, want from professional sport? Then say so. Boycott events that track achievement stats and world record times and distances and batting averages, demand from your sporting media that they change their focus to who's enjoying the game the most and who's beating his personal best. If OTOH that model is not what you want... then make your peace with performance enhancement, because in one form or another it will happen in any system that incentivizes it.
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elone

Quote from: Cyrano Johnson on August 12, 2013, 01:12:17 AM

What you cannot have is both of them at the same time. Model #1 just isn't compatible with producing spectacles on the order demanded by model #2. And the thing is: we all know that people aren't going to tune in by the millions to watch model #1 in action, because why should they? They're already doing it on their local softball field or football pitch. The model that drives broadcast and big-budget sporting events is model #2.


I can't quite agree with this. If you want spectacle you can have WWE and such nonsense. As for people watching non drugged athletes, I believe that was the case for hundreds of years before the current era of performance enhancing drugs. There was certainly no lack of fan base for baseball, football, tennis, track, basketball, etc. before say the 1980's or whenever the use of performance enhancing substances came into sport. Probably earlier, I remember the East German women in the olympics who looked like bodybuilders and talked like Arnold Schwarzenegger
In the end, all we have left are memories.

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gaggedLouise

#6
Quote from: elone on August 12, 2013, 01:50:19 AM
I can't quite agree with this. If you want spectacle you can have WWE and such nonsense. As for people watching non drugged athletes, I believe that was the case for hundreds of years before the current era of performance enhancing drugs. There was certainly no lack of fan base for baseball, football, tennis, track, basketball, etc. before say the 1980's or whenever the use of performance enhancing substances came into sport. Probably earlier, I remember the East German women in the olympics who looked like bodybuilders and talked like Arnold Schwarzenegger

Maybe no lack of a fan base in the part of the world where you live, but before the age of modern broad professional sports, there was a decided lack of space for young talents, large numbers of them, to get on the ladder and make a living from their prowess and their talent. For the kids next door in most sports to really build any kind of career from the sport they were on to, stay on track and move from being the local talent into the top level, there had to be a realistic spectrum of ways to make money and a livable career - while you were moving up, once you've reached the elite level, and post-career.

Back in the amateur age in sports such as track and field, football (soccer) and skiing (not commenting on baseball here because unfamiliar with U.S. ball game leagues, but the overall map is the same I think in big international sports), the deal was: unless you belonged among the top ten who could get cool publicity deals for appearing in commercials and so on, your being an elite athlete could mean living around your parents' house for years, while most of your friends got an education, moved out and actually began making more regular money than you. How come? Because going for an elite career in sports means training so much you don't have any time for a 9-to-5 job or for studying. Most people with a big talent in sports can't be competitive both in their event on a high level and on an ordinary daytime job - not without lots of assistance and understanding bosses. And earnings from the actual sports events, even for the champ of the day's event, were  limited back then, often symbolic. So unless your family were so rich they could pay the way for your living on your own, journeys, training resources etc on the run-up to move into the elite level, unless you had a rich family or a wealthy national association in your event behind you early on, you would be hard put for money to meet expenses while trying to get up into the top. A daytime job would often not work, and all your parents would have the money for, if even that, would be to let you live in a side room of the house while you were trying to make it for real. Even if one was garnering support from the national track and field association or from the football club because they saw one's talent, that was the deal for most up-and-coming people, because there was much less money in sports itself.

Back in those days, football teams and county track-and-field clubs were 90% made up of people who had some sort of steady job outside of sports. And people got tired of this, got tired of having to languish under an amateur principle that was being held in place by the IOC, the IAAF and other sports associations and by the media, but which made it much tougher to get anywhere. Eventually the bigwig associations had to give in and accept that athletes could live as professionals, get sponsorship deals and accept big money for a game, or for being in a team, at any time, already in their teens actually. If this hadn't happened, the Olympics and the current big track-and-field championships (probably some of the US leagues too, though I'm not familiar with those) would have begun losing more and more new talents to fresh "pay sports" leagues and championships, and those would have begun encroaching on the amount of space for tv sports showing.

What audiences and athletes wanted was moving away from the model of a strictly idealistic, clean white sports world where only results on equal terms would count, and where the amateur principle (no accepting of any big money, prize money or pro wages, for being in the game as such) was seen as the guardian of this. People were pointing their fingers at the state-supported athletes of eastern Europe and saying 'hey, those look like they are going on some strange substances' - okay, but as soon as the amateur wall burst in the west, the same kind of doping began coming out into the open on top levels here too. Florence Griffith-Joyner looked every bit as unnaturally muscular as the East German girls, improved her performances suspiciously fast, and many people remain convinced she had been souping up with steroids and blood doping. The age when the amateur norm came under attack and was finally abandoned were also the years when doping became a more obvious thing in most sports.

Today there's much more sports on tv and a busier events calendar outside of what goes on tv, much more money in sports and much more options of making money on your sports than there's ever been - across the planet, and in the U.S. too, right? Many more people are able to get on the ladder and they build longer careers, because there's so much more money in this, and more of it actually reaches young athletes on the way up. Yeah, that means there are more substances around too. Of course. But I think Cyrano is right that the kind of spectacle we've come to expect of sports, and the actual breadth and level of activity, can't be sustained together with the idea that sports is ultimately about going "higher, faster, stronger" in only natural ways - if there's also going to be a really hardline watch on doping. If those two are going to coexist, the business side of sports (including the options many  people have of making a living out of their events) and the mystique of sports, then substances are gonna be on the scene too.

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Sometimes bound and cuntrolled, sometimes free and easy 

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Cyrano Johnson

Quote from: elone on August 12, 2013, 01:50:19 AMI can't quite agree with this. If you want spectacle you can have WWE and such nonsense.

You seriously don't think pro sports is about spectacle? I guess all those sports networks had better hang it up and go home, then, eh? :)

Of course professional sport is about spectacle, and WWE isn't a sports spectacle, that's why they have to call it "sports entertainment." Sports fans want someone really knocking the ball out of the park, beating the last guy's record for doing so (and the guy before him and the guy before him etc), genuinely shaving another tenth of a second off the world-record time in the 100 m men's sprint. The fact of someone doing it is the attraction. That's what they're paying for, or at any rate it's what they show up for.

This of course is also what drives the hysteria over performance enhancers, and at a certain level I get it. Like I said, there was a certain span of time in the Twentieth Century where you could pretend that the standards of model #1 could be fruitfully applied to model #2 -- when unenhanced athletes could compete and keep on providing that spectacle of besting the standards of yesteryear. They can't do that anymore, because at a certain point the unenhanced human body just stops being able to best the standards of yesteryear. And because people are not being honest with themselves about this -- and because sport institutions are not being honest with them about it -- they feel somehow "cheated" or faked-out to learn that the modern athletes they're watching aren't doing it all according to some standard of "purity."

But the feeling that drugs or other technological aids to training are "cheating" overlooks the fact that no amount of drugs alone can make you a great athlete: it's not like the Lance Armstrongs of the world are shooting up horse testosterone and lying around on the couch while their mighty muscles grow in. The effort, the struggle, the passion that goes into modern athletic training is no less than it ever was, in fact I wouldn't be surprised to find modern regimens far more strenuous. These people aren't doing any less to earn their records. They're just being punished, unevenly, for doing what is necessary to provide the spectacle.

In the end, performance enhancers are only "cheating" when nobody will admit out loud that they're necessary to compete at the highest level in the model of modern professional sport. In an informal sense, the bulk of the competitive field in any sport where there's an incentive for their use will wind up using them. It's the culture of denial that has ensures that this means there is no longer a level playing field; it's prohibition that ensures the whole business is carried out in the shadows, that there's a hidden element in modern sport of who happened upon the coach and program with the best technological resources and the most money. That doesn't have to be the case: but you can't eliminate the performance enhancers and keep the spectacle.

You can, however, eliminate prohibition and forthrightly regulate the performance enhancers to ensure that people aren't poisoning themselves, and to ensure that everyone has access to the same resources. This would IMO be a more sane, more honest and more moral solution than what's happening now with drug testing.

QuoteAs for people watching non drugged athletes, I believe that was the case for hundreds of years before the current era of performance enhancing drugs.

For hundreds of years there was nothing equivalent to modern televised sport. Now, if you prefer to go back to the model of the elite "amateur" athlete who did it for the thrill and sportsmanship that's all well and good, but I sometimes think people who think they want this haven't really thought through the implications. The "amateur" athletes who built the early Olympic movement, for instance, were mostly aristocrats or at least well-off, the kind of people who could afford a sporting lifestyle (which, as Louise points out in her excellent post, hardly pays for itself). The age of modern sport is also the age of mass participation in sport, especially of organized leagues that can feed into the professional athletic ranks and give a kid from the slums a genuine shot at becoming the next athletic superstar: and it's ultimately the spectacle that pays for the programs that make that kind of story possible.

Now, I don't know, maybe it would be for the best if all that went away. A side effect of the rags-to-riches professional athlete is that a tonne of people who could be useful to their communities in other ways die clinging to dreams of making it big in pro sports; it can be a harmful mirage for some just as it's a legitimate inspiration for others. But what I'm pretty sure about is that nobody has any intention of relinquishing the spectacle.
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Torch

Quote from: elone on August 12, 2013, 01:50:19 AM
There was certainly no lack of fan base for baseball, football, tennis, track, basketball, etc. before say the 1980's or whenever the use of performance enhancing substances came into sport.

Athletes have been using performance enhancing substances long before the 1980's. As early as the 1880's, professional baseball players used testosterone supplements derived from animals. Amphetamine usage was rampant in Major League Baseball during the 20th century, with players like Mickey Mantle injecting themselves with cocktails made up of speed and steroids. Mike Schmidt and Goose Gossage both admitted to using amphetamines during their careers, and they are only the tip of the iceberg.

The great Bob Gibson, a pitcher so dominating that Major League Baseball decided to lower the pitching mound because it was giving him an unfair advantage, has stated flat out that if PED's were available in the 60's when he was playing, he would have at least tried them. That's the mindset of a professional athlete who will win at all costs. 
"Every morning in Africa, a gazelle wakes up. It knows it must outrun the fastest lion or it will be killed. Every morning in Africa, a lion wakes up. It knows it must run faster than the slowest gazelle, or it will starve. It doesn't matter whether you're a lion or a gazelle, when the sun comes up, you'd better be running."  Sir Roger Bannister


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elone

#9

QuoteThey're just being punished, unevenly, for doing what is necessary to provide the spectacle.


Sports existed well before there were drugs involved with a big fan base. Television was around then as well and millions watched. Do you seriously believe that people will quit watching, and thus financially supporting sports if drugging is not allowed?

Just for argument, let us suppose that we all acknowledged that doping is needed to keep setting records and that fans and money will all disappear if we don't see athletes running faster, jumping higher etc.  We all say that doping is fine and everyone starts doing it, monitored and somewhat safe, if that is possible.

Eventually, we will be right back where we started from, everyone will be doping and thus the advantage will be lost. Athletes will eventually hit a wall where they can no longer improve their performance. So, will the fans leave and the money dry up suddenly?  Also, those who do not want to put substances in their bodies will be excluded. Either that or we will have two categories of athletes, like bodybuilding does, dopers and non-dopers.

So why not just be clean?
In the end, all we have left are memories.

Roleplays: alive, done, dead, etc.
Reversal of Fortune ~ The Hunt ~ Private Party Suites ~ A Learning Experience ~A Chance Encounter ~ A Bark in the Park ~
Poetry
O/O's

Cyrano Johnson

#10
Quote from: elone on August 12, 2013, 09:51:08 AMDo you seriously believe that people will quit watching, and thus financially supporting sports if drugging is not allowed?

I think so long as the model of continuing improvement over yesteryear exists, it will out-sell and out-compete other models as far as spectacles go, without doubt.

QuoteEventually, we will be right back where we started from, everyone will be doping and thus the advantage will be lost.

We're already there. As far as athletes who are actually competitive at the top of their fields, pretty much everyone is already doping. (Cycling will not be the last sport in which we finally reach this point of open revelation, I can pretty much guarantee you.) They're not doing it for "advantage," they're doing it because the physical level of competition has escalated to the point where it's necessary to be competitive at all.

QuoteAthletes will eventually hit a wall where they can no longer improve their performance.

We are at the very beginning of the curve of athlete enhancement, arguing over the most primitive possible versions thereof. (Well, perhaps not quite the most primitive versions, I didn't know that about 1880's baseball players, thanks Torch!) This is the beginning of a very, very long controversy which ultimately will be about how close to baseline human professional athletes need to be to still be relevant as icons of human achievement. The prospect of lifting the prohibition regime on doping will simply open the doors to other forms of enhancement. I can't pretend to predict what forms they will take -- although recalling the controversy over the "unfair advantage" of Oscar Pistorius' blades, I don't think it's just the cyberpunk fan in me that anticipates that artificial implants will eventually enter the picture -- or where that conversation will ultimately wind up. Genetic therapy and engineering in particular is a huge X-factor. But I do think we'll reach a frontier far beyond just doping before people are really willing to question their commitment to the whole exercise.
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Cyrano Johnson

#11
Although honestly? I would love to see someone make a go of turning beer league softball or curling into a televised spectator sport. I think that could actually be kind of awesome. (EDIT: Curses! Somebody stole my idea and then travelled back in time!)
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Oniya

Curling has a fascination that goes beyond any given athlete's ability.  I'd love to know who came up with it and why!

'So, we take this big weight, and sling it across the ice and see how far it goes.  No, wait, it gets better:  We get these guys with brooms to scrub the ice in front of it so it goes farther.  Oh, and then we allow one team's weight to knock another team's weight out of the scoring area!'
"Language was invented for one reason, boys - to woo women.~*~*~Don't think it's all been done before
And in that endeavor, laziness will not do." ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think we're never gonna win this war
Robin Williams-Dead Poets Society ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think your world's gonna fall apart
I do have a cause, though.  It's obscenity.  I'm for it.  - Tom Lehrer~*~All you need is your beautiful heart
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Callie Del Noire

Thing is Cyrano. The Pro Leagues still maintain that it's pure athleticism and focus, not drugs that the athletes are pursuing.

My grouse is that if they are maintaining the illusion they should punish just as hard as they do for other offenses.

I've had to use steroids before. A torn muscle in my thigh after falling 20-30 feet down an aircraft ladder in the service. It was short, sweet very limited uses, and for nearly two years I had to state as such for my drug screenings. Simple informed participation. What these guys are doing is continued fraud,using masking agents, stand ins and cutting edge biotech to stay ahead of testing. Pete Rose got a life time ban for betting on ball games, though they never proved he bet against his own team. I want to see a few of these guys who are clearly lying to themselves and everyone as much as Rose did, get similar treatments.

Cyrano Johnson

#14
Quote from: Callie Del Noire on August 12, 2013, 10:52:40 AMThing is Cyrano. The Pro Leagues still maintain that it's pure athleticism and focus, not drugs that the athletes are pursuing.

My grouse is that if they are maintaining the illusion they should punish just as hard as they do for other offenses.

I get you. Except it's an illusion precisely because trying to genuinely consistently punish all the guilty would wipe out the top ranks of any affected sport. (Or, say, force the Olympics to drop entire sports... but notice that they backed down from that threat with cycling.) All I'm saying is when you're at that point, maybe it's the illusion that needs to give way. I mean, it's all very well to talk about the athletes using fraud... but what does that really mean when the sporting "standard" they're deviating from is itself a fraud, a fantasy, an illusion?
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Callie Del Noire

Quote from: Cyrano Johnson on August 12, 2013, 11:06:56 AM
I get you. Except it's an illusion precisely because trying to genuinely consistently punish all the guilty would wipe out the top ranks of any affected sport. (Or, say, force the Olympics to drop entire sports... but notice that they backed down from that threat with cycling.) All I'm saying is when you're at that point, maybe it's the illusion that needs to give way.

Well I say we should do it. Either end the hypocrisy by regulating it.. or start hammering the offenders like they say they will.

vtboy

Is there really a principled difference between PEDs and, say, Tommy John surgery? Lasik? Wearing eyeglasses? In each case, the athlete takes advantage of artificial means to achieve a physical capacity beyond that of his or her unaided body.

Perhaps, in the fullness of time, the use of steroids and HGH will be seen as not much different from drinking high protein shakes as part of a body building regimen.

Retribution

Hell, they got to be pretty dam scientific to beat the tests. I was a lower tier college and world level athlete and the piss tests are well something that will do away with your inhibitions. First one I took I had a serious case of stage fright because they literally watch you pee in the bottle. I mean dude right there, up close making sure it is your penis spraying into said hole in bottle. Then you put your own tamper proof seal on the dam bottle yourself so when I hear people say their test was tampered with it makes me laugh. Hell, took me an hour to actually pee the first time with someone watching that close.

My son who has a knack for getting pulled for random tests told me it is even worse these days. It all keeps me wondering if they put as much effort into practicing as they do beating the tests if the end results would not be the same.

Cyrano Johnson

#18
Quote from: vtboy on August 12, 2013, 12:00:04 PM
Is there really a principled difference between PEDs and, say, Tommy John surgery? Lasik? Wearing eyeglasses? In each case, the athlete takes advantage of artificial means to achieve a physical capacity beyond that of his or her unaided body.

Perhaps, in the fullness of time, the use of steroids and HGH will be seen as not much different from drinking high protein shakes as part of a body building regimen.

The best argument in favour of anti-doping rules is that it's bad for athlete health. This interesting article suggests that I'm probably wrong to describe the issue being athletes taking performance enhancers in a race to keep up with records and such, so much as that, like Torch suggested, anti-doping campaigners are trying to intervene in athlete mentality and set of practices and incentives that has always been there:

Quote from: Christie AschwandenDoping, or using a substance to enhance performance, is nothing new. Contrary to romantic notions about the purity of Olympic sports, ancient Greeks ingested special drinks and potions to give them an edge, and at the 1904 Games, athletes downed potent mixtures of cocaine, heroin and strych- nine. For most of Olympic history, using drugs wasn’t considered cheating. Then, in the 1960 Olympics, Danish cyclist Knut Jensen passed out during a race, cracked his skull and later died. The coroner blamed the death on amphetamines, and the case led to anti-doping rules. Drug testing began with the 1968 Games, with a goal to protect athlete health. In addition to short-term damage, certain drugs also appear to increase the risk of heart disease and possibly cancer.

Better to have it in the open and fight the dangerous drugs than pretend the drugs aren't there, it looks like. (Also: cocaine, heroin and strychnine?! Yipes.)
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Oniya

Strychnine?  That's going to disagree with you sooner or later.
"Language was invented for one reason, boys - to woo women.~*~*~Don't think it's all been done before
And in that endeavor, laziness will not do." ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think we're never gonna win this war
Robin Williams-Dead Poets Society ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think your world's gonna fall apart
I do have a cause, though.  It's obscenity.  I'm for it.  - Tom Lehrer~*~All you need is your beautiful heart
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Callie Del Noire

Quote from: Retribution on August 12, 2013, 01:28:43 PM
Hell, they got to be pretty dam scientific to beat the tests. I was a lower tier college and world level athlete and the piss tests are well something that will do away with your inhibitions. First one I took I had a serious case of stage fright because they literally watch you pee in the bottle. I mean dude right there, up close making sure it is your penis spraying into said hole in bottle. Then you put your own tamper proof seal on the dam bottle yourself so when I hear people say their test was tampered with it makes me laugh. Hell, took me an hour to actually pee the first time with someone watching that close.

My son who has a knack for getting pulled for random tests told me it is even worse these days. It all keeps me wondering if they put as much effort into practicing as they do beating the tests if the end results would not be the same.

You know.. I have never had to deal with Athlete screening BUT I have had to deal with the DoD drug screening in two of the most heavily screened commands in the Navy. (At the time I was in them) I once had three drug screenings in six working days. The fun of 'random screening' in a command of 1300 airmen/officers.

I also, as a screener, got to hear some of the 'solutions' that folks would do to fox a test. How about this one: Filling your bladder with 'donor' urine. Yeah, they caught a guy who had foxed SIX screenings by literally piping urine INTO his bladder. Other cases we've found in the process of time including folks putting all sorts of things in their system in hopes of flushing it.

Oniya

I didn't know they made Foleys that could do that.  O_O  I guess I always thought there was a one-way valve in there somewhere.
"Language was invented for one reason, boys - to woo women.~*~*~Don't think it's all been done before
And in that endeavor, laziness will not do." ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think we're never gonna win this war
Robin Williams-Dead Poets Society ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think your world's gonna fall apart
I do have a cause, though.  It's obscenity.  I'm for it.  - Tom Lehrer~*~All you need is your beautiful heart
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Callie Del Noire

Quote from: Oniya on August 12, 2013, 02:08:43 PM
I didn't know they made Foleys that could do that.  O_O  I guess I always thought there was a one-way valve in there somewhere.

That one I heard from a chief on the Nimitz.. I have see 'prosthetic devices' that are fleshtoned to look like male genitalia and tucked in yer pants. (They had one in our observer indoc class.. yes we had a class. Not for the 'observer' part but all the procedures and damn paperwork)

Oniya

The fake penis thing I can comprehend.  (You have no idea how many phrasings I discarded for that! *laughs*) Using a catheter in reverse is mind-boggling.
"Language was invented for one reason, boys - to woo women.~*~*~Don't think it's all been done before
And in that endeavor, laziness will not do." ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think we're never gonna win this war
Robin Williams-Dead Poets Society ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think your world's gonna fall apart
I do have a cause, though.  It's obscenity.  I'm for it.  - Tom Lehrer~*~All you need is your beautiful heart
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Cyrano Johnson

Quote from: Oniya on August 12, 2013, 03:17:35 PMThe fake penis thing I can comprehend.  (You have no idea how many phrasings I discarded for that! *laughs*) Using a catheter in reverse is mind-boggling.

Yeah, the "donor urine" thing gave me a full-body shudder. That is messed up.
Artichoke the gorilla halibut! Freedom! Remember Bubba the Love Sponge!

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Callie Del Noire

Quote from: Cyrano Johnson on August 12, 2013, 03:19:13 PM
Yeah, the "donor urine" thing gave me a full-body shudder. That is messed up.

EVERYONE in the class shuddered when we heard it. The guy next to me was a corpman and he asked the Chief if he was joking..the response was 'Son, I don't lie about shit like that.. some folks will do ANYTHING to avoid being responsible for their actions'.

I knew airmen who drank BLEACH in the thoughts that it would flush their system out.

Oniya

That one has been played for laughs.  I remember a routine where a guy used his girlfriend's urine to pass a drug test.  The lab results came back 'Pregnant'.
"Language was invented for one reason, boys - to woo women.~*~*~Don't think it's all been done before
And in that endeavor, laziness will not do." ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think we're never gonna win this war
Robin Williams-Dead Poets Society ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think your world's gonna fall apart
I do have a cause, though.  It's obscenity.  I'm for it.  - Tom Lehrer~*~All you need is your beautiful heart
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elone

Again, drug testing has to be accurate to be worth a damn. When I was in the Army, I had wisdom teeth pulled and was given narcotic pain killers. I got called up for a urine drug test and told them about it. Their answer was that it would come back positive, but all I would have to do was show my script to fix it. My test came back negative.

Another time I had a urine drug test for a job. I had taken something prescribed by a doctor (don't remember what) and it turns out it was a substance that is also used as a masking agent to hide positive drug tests. They flunked me, refused to retest, and of course, I was not hired.
In the end, all we have left are memories.

Roleplays: alive, done, dead, etc.
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vtboy

Quote from: Cyrano Johnson on August 12, 2013, 02:00:23 PM
The best argument in favour of anti-doping rules is that it's bad for athlete health.

We don't prohibit downhill skiers, auto racers, boxers, and competitors in god-knows-how-many high-risk sports from taking far greater gambles with life, limb and brain function. No one flinches when prizefighters get in the ring without head gear and punch each other into senility. No one frets over high wire and trapeze acrobatics. Why do MLB, NFL, NBA, Olympic, and Tour de France athletes over the age of majority merit special protection from the potentially harmful consequences of their choices?

I don't buy that concern for the athlete is beyond the doping prohibition at all. There are only two real concerns for those who make money staging and promoting spectator sports: (i) will allowing players to dope bring in fans or will it repel them; and (ii) will an exploitative Congress strip a league of its antitrust exemption in the name of shielding the purity of American youth from the siren call of doping sports stars.

I've always thought the Russian roulette scenes in The Deer Hunter could serve well as a metaphor for professional sports.

Cyrano Johnson

Quote from: vtboy on August 12, 2013, 04:30:04 PMWhy do MLB, NFL, NBA, Olympic, and Tour de France athletes over the age of majority merit special protection from the potentially harmful consequences of their choices?

True. I said it was the best argument... not that it was a great one.

QuoteI've always thought the Russian roulette scenes in The Deer Hunter could serve well as a metaphor for professional sports.

Unfortunately also true.
Artichoke the gorilla halibut! Freedom! Remember Bubba the Love Sponge!

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Pumpkin Seeds

Just had to throw in my favorite way of avoiding a drug screen.  Kid went to the bathroom with a coke can.  The nurse followed him into the bathroom and said he couldn't bring the drink in and he said he needed something to drink so he wanted the coke.  She stood there and watched him down the coke.  About half way through he starts throwing up the urine he had in the coke can for the piss test.

Oniya

*sad trombone noise*

I can only imagine the panic that went through his head when she insisted on watching him drink.  >:)
"Language was invented for one reason, boys - to woo women.~*~*~Don't think it's all been done before
And in that endeavor, laziness will not do." ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think we're never gonna win this war
Robin Williams-Dead Poets Society ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think your world's gonna fall apart
I do have a cause, though.  It's obscenity.  I'm for it.  - Tom Lehrer~*~All you need is your beautiful heart
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FionaM


Oniya

Is it sad that I was thinking 'thesaurus' as soon as he said 'spheroidal aviation'?
"Language was invented for one reason, boys - to woo women.~*~*~Don't think it's all been done before
And in that endeavor, laziness will not do." ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think we're never gonna win this war
Robin Williams-Dead Poets Society ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think your world's gonna fall apart
I do have a cause, though.  It's obscenity.  I'm for it.  - Tom Lehrer~*~All you need is your beautiful heart
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mia h

Quote from: Cyrano Johnson on August 12, 2013, 03:19:13 PM
Yeah, the "donor urine" thing gave me a full-body shudder. That is messed up.

I might be wrong about the sport, but I think one pro-cyclist got caught doing this because the urine test showed he was pregnant
If found acting like an idiot, apply Gibbs-slap to reboot system.

meikle

#35
So what happens to professional sports if performance enhancing drugs are no longer stigmatized but openly accepted?

I don't personally see why some forms of technology (say, modern diet and exercise regimens, or fancy swim suits like were a big deal at the last Olympics, or fancy protein shakes that are more effective than diet options in the past, etc) are okay but another form of technology (biomedical) isn't. 

I would be okay with professional sports being dominated by cyborg machine-people on all the steroids in the world.  NO PAIN NO GAIN.
Kiss your lover with that filthy mouth, you fuckin' monster.

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Callie Del Noire

Quote from: meikle on August 13, 2013, 06:26:31 AM
So what happens to professional sports if performance enhancing drugs are no longer stigmatized but openly accepted?

I don't personally see why some forms of technology (say, modern diet and exercise regimens, or fancy swim suits like were a big deal at the last Olympics, or fancy protein shakes that are more effective than diet options in the past, etc) are okay but another form of technology (biomedical) isn't. 

I would be okay with professional sports being dominated by cyborg machine-people on all the steroids in the world.  NO PAIN NO GAIN.

Tll a roid raging soccer/football/boxer type goes on a steroid induced killing spree?

Oniya

Boxer-types have repeated concussion syndrome to worry about too.  Chris Benoit (okay, he wasn't a boxer, but his style inflicted a lot of trauma on his head) was initially demonized as being under 'roid rage after his murder/suicide.  Subsequent autopsy results showed that his brain resembled that of an 85-year-old Alzheimer's patient.
"Language was invented for one reason, boys - to woo women.~*~*~Don't think it's all been done before
And in that endeavor, laziness will not do." ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think we're never gonna win this war
Robin Williams-Dead Poets Society ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think your world's gonna fall apart
I do have a cause, though.  It's obscenity.  I'm for it.  - Tom Lehrer~*~All you need is your beautiful heart
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Retribution

#38
I was an amateur wrestler and am now middle aged and the broken parts are catching up with me. But I do note some slipped memory and the like from concussions. I am not bad since I only had three or four concussions over the course of my career, but let me tell you it is kind of creepy when your mind just goes blank. But the broken neck and the like that I suffered while competing bother me more with the aging process.

As for roid rage. It is real and I have seen it first hand more so with football players. What is scary about it is that they are like a switch. One minute they can be just fine and then the next they snap and become nearly homicidal. It is fucking spooky to put it mildly. Now there is a bit of that with repeated concussions I have noticed it in myself but me and my family keep a close eye on that since we know my temper is not all natural so to speak. But the guys I was around in college and the like who were clearly abusing roids were a whole other animal. Like I said it was creepy because a small thing would make them homicidal but then more significant things they would not even raise an eyebrow at.

Callie Del Noire

Quote from: Oniya on August 13, 2013, 12:08:11 PM
Boxer-types have repeated concussion syndrome to worry about too.  Chris Benoit (okay, he wasn't a boxer, but his style inflicted a lot of trauma on his head) was initially demonized as being under 'roid rage after his murder/suicide.  Subsequent autopsy results showed that his brain resembled that of an 85-year-old Alzheimer's patient.

And according to my friend, who was in the  wrestling game for a while, there is a small group of the community who don't think that Benoit killed his family.

Oniya

Just to be clear, I'm not discounting 'roid rage, just putting out that it's not the only thing that can affect players of sports with a high-impact focus.

Interesting fact:  Before switching to the fancy helmets they have now, football tackles were nowhere near as violent as they have become.
"Language was invented for one reason, boys - to woo women.~*~*~Don't think it's all been done before
And in that endeavor, laziness will not do." ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think we're never gonna win this war
Robin Williams-Dead Poets Society ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think your world's gonna fall apart
I do have a cause, though.  It's obscenity.  I'm for it.  - Tom Lehrer~*~All you need is your beautiful heart
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Ephiral

Quote from: Oniya on August 13, 2013, 12:51:36 PMInteresting fact:  Before switching to the fancy helmets they have now, football tackles were nowhere near as violent as they have become.
This is actually a general tendency; we tend to compensate for known safety measures and good actions (to a degree) in our behaviour. Wearing a seatbelt makes you more prone to taking risks on the road. Donating to a charity tends to make you a bit more of a jerk. Not enough to counter or outweigh the good these things do, but... it's an interesting psychological quirk.

Torch

Quote from: Oniya on August 13, 2013, 12:51:36 PM
Interesting fact:  Before switching to the fancy helmets they have now, football tackles were nowhere near as violent as they have become.

This was exactly the point Joe Paterno tried to make before his untimely passing. He actually advocated going back to leather helmets.
"Every morning in Africa, a gazelle wakes up. It knows it must outrun the fastest lion or it will be killed. Every morning in Africa, a lion wakes up. It knows it must run faster than the slowest gazelle, or it will starve. It doesn't matter whether you're a lion or a gazelle, when the sun comes up, you'd better be running."  Sir Roger Bannister


Erotic is using a feather. Kinky is using the whole chicken.

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vtboy

Quote from: Oniya on August 13, 2013, 12:51:36 PM
Just to be clear, I'm not discounting 'roid rage, just putting out that it's not the only thing that can affect players of sports with a high-impact focus.

Interesting fact:  Before switching to the fancy helmets they have now, football tackles were nowhere near as violent as they have become.

True. But behemoth sized football players are also a relatively recent advent. The average offensive tackle, for example, weighed about 260 pounds in 1970, and about 314 in 2006. The inflation of guards, centers, defensive tackles, and nose guards has been roughly proportionate, while that of quarterbacks, running backs, linebackers and wide receivers has not. http://www.pro-football-reference.com/blog/?p=493 In the words of Sancho Panza, whether the stone hits the pitcher or the pitcher hits the stone, its bound to be bad for the pitcher.

Torch

Quote from: vtboy on August 13, 2013, 01:26:58 PM
The inflation of guards, centers, defensive tackles, and nose guards has been roughly proportionate, while that of quarterbacks, running backs, linebackers and wide receivers has not.

All true. And folks wonder why QB's like Michael Vick (6'0", 215lbs) are so injury prone.
"Every morning in Africa, a gazelle wakes up. It knows it must outrun the fastest lion or it will be killed. Every morning in Africa, a lion wakes up. It knows it must run faster than the slowest gazelle, or it will starve. It doesn't matter whether you're a lion or a gazelle, when the sun comes up, you'd better be running."  Sir Roger Bannister


Erotic is using a feather. Kinky is using the whole chicken.

On's and Off's

Cyrano Johnson

Quote from: Oniya on August 13, 2013, 12:51:36 PMInteresting fact:  Before switching to the fancy helmets they have now, football tackles were nowhere near as violent as they have become.

The next logical step is obviously a transition to powered armor, Iron Man style.
Artichoke the gorilla halibut! Freedom! Remember Bubba the Love Sponge!

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Oniya

And the next step after that is full-scale Rock-'Em, Sock-'Em Robots.
"Language was invented for one reason, boys - to woo women.~*~*~Don't think it's all been done before
And in that endeavor, laziness will not do." ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think we're never gonna win this war
Robin Williams-Dead Poets Society ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think your world's gonna fall apart
I do have a cause, though.  It's obscenity.  I'm for it.  - Tom Lehrer~*~All you need is your beautiful heart
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Pumpkin Seeds

Same principle with boxing gloves.  The heavier the gloves, the more protected the hands and the more punches that are thrown. 

gaggedLouise

Quote from: Ephiral on August 13, 2013, 01:13:32 PM
This is actually a general tendency; we tend to compensate for known safety measures and good actions (to a degree) in our behaviour. Wearing a seatbelt makes you more prone to taking risks on the road. Donating to a charity tends to make you a bit more of a jerk. Not enough to counter or outweigh the good these things do, but... it's an interesting psychological quirk.

I don't recall the name, but I remember seeing a news piece about a U.S. football player who had been using a good deal of steroids and medical substances, gotten suspended, and then had been struck by a badly positioned brain tumour. The caption to the pic of him ended in the grim line "The penalty will be the toughest one could think of."  :-(

Good girl but bad  -- Proud sister of the amazing, blackberry-sweet Violet Girl

Sometimes bound and cuntrolled, sometimes free and easy 

"I'm a pretty good cook, I'm sitting on my groceries.
Come up to my kitchen, I'll show you my best recipes"

meikle

Quote from: Torch on August 13, 2013, 01:26:26 PM
This was exactly the point Joe Paterno tried to make before his untimely passing. He actually advocated going back to leather helmets.

Wasn't football a lot more uh ... lethal before modern football gear, reckless play or not?
Kiss your lover with that filthy mouth, you fuckin' monster.

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gaggedLouise

#50
Quote from: meikle on August 15, 2013, 08:31:12 PM
Wasn't football a lot more uh ... lethal before modern football gear, reckless play or not?

*nods* I believe boxing had a lot more fatalities or serious injuries to contestants back in the days when there was no real medical attention at the ringside. But it still does happen. Only two months ago, Swedish female fighter and national and WBC champion Frida Wallberg was knocked out in such a bad way that she was taken to hospital,  suffered a brain haemorrhage later that night and it was feared she would land in a wheelchair for life and lose a good deal of her mental faculties. The whole incident smacked of Million Dollar Baby, except that the punch was not made in vengeance or anger. It's still unclear how much long-term damage she sustained. "The worst thing that could have happened to boxing in this country" said a ringside referee.

Good girl but bad  -- Proud sister of the amazing, blackberry-sweet Violet Girl

Sometimes bound and cuntrolled, sometimes free and easy 

"I'm a pretty good cook, I'm sitting on my groceries.
Come up to my kitchen, I'll show you my best recipes"

Torch

Quote from: meikle on August 15, 2013, 08:31:12 PM
Wasn't football a lot more uh ... lethal before modern football gear, reckless play or not?

Vintage “Leatherhead” Football Helmets Often as Protective as Modern helmets in Common, Game-Like Hits, Cleveland Clinic Researchers Find


Quoted from the article:

"Though head and neck injuries were greatly reduced after football helmet standards and rule changes were instituted in 1970’s and 1980’s, the incidence of concussions have continued to increase."
"Every morning in Africa, a gazelle wakes up. It knows it must outrun the fastest lion or it will be killed. Every morning in Africa, a lion wakes up. It knows it must run faster than the slowest gazelle, or it will starve. It doesn't matter whether you're a lion or a gazelle, when the sun comes up, you'd better be running."  Sir Roger Bannister


Erotic is using a feather. Kinky is using the whole chicken.

On's and Off's

Oniya

One thing to consider is that, even though the head is in a 'brain-bucket' that will prevent or diminish fractures, the brain sort of floats almost freely in the cerebrospinal fluid.  Take a raw egg and shake it really hard, then crack it.  That's your brain experiencing trauma without any other apparent injury.

[1980's voiceover]Any questions? *sizzle*[/voiceover]
"Language was invented for one reason, boys - to woo women.~*~*~Don't think it's all been done before
And in that endeavor, laziness will not do." ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think we're never gonna win this war
Robin Williams-Dead Poets Society ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think your world's gonna fall apart
I do have a cause, though.  It's obscenity.  I'm for it.  - Tom Lehrer~*~All you need is your beautiful heart
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Moraline

Quote from: Oniya on August 15, 2013, 09:33:21 PM
One thing to consider is that, even though the head is in a 'brain-bucket' that will prevent or diminish fractures, the brain sort of floats almost freely in the cerebrospinal fluid.  Take a raw egg and shake it really hard, then crack it.  That's your brain experiencing trauma without any other apparent injury.

[1980's voiceover]Any questions? *sizzle*[/voiceover]
*gigglesnorts*


NOTE:
Every time I see the topic of this thread all my screen shows is "Performance Enhancers" and my mind automatically goes to little blue pills called Viagra. Those could be used for the pro-sport of Porn right? You know if they added sex to the Olympic line-up it'd make it a 1000x more interesting (and it'd put a whole new spin on the Olympics in Russia debate too.)

IN SPORTS NEWS:
"Ilayna Orgrinkova won gold last night in the 15 min Blowjob finals. What a performance it was. However it looks like her teammate Sergei Vutaniz has been disqualified for use of the little blue pill and they will have their medals stripped..

Now back to Victor and our coverage of the 12 man endurance bent over penetration series."

Oniya

Quote from: Moraline on August 18, 2013, 03:25:12 PM
*gigglesnorts*


I'm so glad I'm not the only one who remembers that commercial.  ;D
"Language was invented for one reason, boys - to woo women.~*~*~Don't think it's all been done before
And in that endeavor, laziness will not do." ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think we're never gonna win this war
Robin Williams-Dead Poets Society ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think your world's gonna fall apart
I do have a cause, though.  It's obscenity.  I'm for it.  - Tom Lehrer~*~All you need is your beautiful heart
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gaggedLouise

I remember reading an old issue of Newsweek, one that had appeared during the Seoul Olympics: it had a long, excited piece about some of the peak moments in athletics - especially track and field - with a glossy picture spread. The article must have been written and finished within a day or so of Michael Johnson's triumph, and it actually opened "It was the weekend of great speed in Seoul."

By the time it reached the newsstands and subscribers, that line had found a completely new sense...  :D

(no, I'm not kidding on this one)

Good girl but bad  -- Proud sister of the amazing, blackberry-sweet Violet Girl

Sometimes bound and cuntrolled, sometimes free and easy 

"I'm a pretty good cook, I'm sitting on my groceries.
Come up to my kitchen, I'll show you my best recipes"

meikle

Quote from: Callie Del Noire on August 13, 2013, 11:29:05 AM
Tll a roid raging soccer/football/boxer type goes on a steroid induced killing spree?
I wanted to come back to this.

Is the issue that they're using drugs that make them dangerous to the general population?  Because most people take the position that the problem with performance enhancing drugs is that they're cheating/an unfair advantage, not "They're going to kill innocent bystanders," as far as I've ever seen it discussed.
Kiss your lover with that filthy mouth, you fuckin' monster.

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gaggedLouise

Quote from: meikle on August 19, 2013, 03:24:12 AM
I wanted to come back to this.

Is the issue that they're using drugs that make them dangerous to the general population?  Because most people take the position that the problem with performance enhancing drugs is that they're cheating/an unfair advantage, not "They're going to kill innocent bystanders," as far as I've ever seen it discussed.

Well, I haven't heard of many incidents where football players, gymnasts, hammer throwers or sprinters have actually tried to kill spectators or even maul the ordinary Joe in the street...

The Pistorius/Steenkamp case comes to mind of course, but the circumstances there are both obscure, uncertain and kind of special. And there's never been any evidence that he was taking steroids.

Good girl but bad  -- Proud sister of the amazing, blackberry-sweet Violet Girl

Sometimes bound and cuntrolled, sometimes free and easy 

"I'm a pretty good cook, I'm sitting on my groceries.
Come up to my kitchen, I'll show you my best recipes"

Oniya

Quote from: meikle on August 19, 2013, 03:24:12 AM
I wanted to come back to this.

Is the issue that they're using drugs that make them dangerous to the general population?  Because most people take the position that the problem with performance enhancing drugs is that they're cheating/an unfair advantage, not "They're going to kill innocent bystanders," as far as I've ever seen it discussed.

I think both aspects are a legitimate concern.  The 'unfair advantage' is (sadly) more likely to get the attention of the athletic associations.
"Language was invented for one reason, boys - to woo women.~*~*~Don't think it's all been done before
And in that endeavor, laziness will not do." ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think we're never gonna win this war
Robin Williams-Dead Poets Society ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think your world's gonna fall apart
I do have a cause, though.  It's obscenity.  I'm for it.  - Tom Lehrer~*~All you need is your beautiful heart
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gaggedLouise

There's been lots of incidents when famous actors have walloped people - their wives/partners, paparazzi or random folks nearby who made them feel pissed, and many of those will have happened under the influence of drinking or heavy narcotics. But that's not seen as near as worthy of long-term condemnation as when a runner or a wrestler tests positive for steroids or the like.

On the other hand, I think one factor that really helps to fuel anger at athletes, and the sense of being cheated, is the misperception that doping somehow can make anyone into Superman, and do it without serious training. Someone pointed it out earlier in the thread: steroids don't do anything to improve results if there isn't heavy training to build more of those muscles. And it's not like they can make any John Blow a runner of olympic stature, there has to be a good, solid groundwork.

Good girl but bad  -- Proud sister of the amazing, blackberry-sweet Violet Girl

Sometimes bound and cuntrolled, sometimes free and easy 

"I'm a pretty good cook, I'm sitting on my groceries.
Come up to my kitchen, I'll show you my best recipes"

Oniya

Quote from: gaggedLouise on August 20, 2013, 09:48:52 AM
There's been lots of incidents when famous actors have walloped people - their wives/partners, paparazzi or random folks nearby who made them feel pissed, and many of those will have happened under the influence of drinking or heavy narcotics. But that's not seen as near as worthy of long-term condemnation as when a runner or a wrestler tests positive for steroids or the like.

I think people remember the actor incidents just as long, but an actor with a drug/alcohol problem endangers their career by continuing to use.  They become unreliable on the set, and directors refuse to work with them.  An athlete with a steroid addiction (physical or psychological) is going to perceive the drugs they are taking as enhancing their career, and has less incentive to quit.  Unless the use of the drugs does endanger their career (as Callie said in the opening post), they have no incentive to stop.  Maybe an incentive to pick a different performance enhancer, but not an incentive to stop.
"Language was invented for one reason, boys - to woo women.~*~*~Don't think it's all been done before
And in that endeavor, laziness will not do." ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think we're never gonna win this war
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gaggedLouise

#61
Quote from: Oniya on August 20, 2013, 10:09:21 AM
I think people remember the actor incidents just as long, but an actor with a drug/alcohol problem endangers their career by continuing to use.  They become unreliable on the set, and directors refuse to work with them.  An athlete with a steroid addiction (physical or psychological) is going to perceive the drugs they are taking as enhancing their career, and has less incentive to quit.  Unless the use of the drugs does endanger their career (as Callie said in the opening post), they have no incentive to stop.  Maybe an incentive to pick a different performance enhancer, but not an incentive to stop.

Great point, but what if the actor gets so addicted, or romantic, about their drug/drinking habit that they think it's something they'd better keep doing. Like, "to be a good writer you should drink whisky like Hemingway and talk like he did" or "to play like Charlie Parker you have to take what he's taking in" - many jazz kids in the fifties actually thought that! Many people do see heavy drinking as a lifestyle value, it becomes both an accessory and a fix to get your mind and feelings into gear, and that's easy to idealize.

The other day I read an interview with a high-level finance analyst and marketer about her dozen years of heavy drinking. She had come into a walk of life where "everybody was drinking at occasions outside of the office", on team business trips and conferences, after work and so on, and for a long time she read it as if it was an on-the-job sport to stay a bit drunk, to show you could juggle the drink times, and not to stop when the party was over. Even when her bosses finally confronted her about her heavy drinking, she admitted...but thought the reason they were angry was because she had slipped a bit with knowing when you should hide it, knowing the unofficial codes. I can think of a few actors and musicians who have really felt their drinking was helping them, and who have had people enabling it around them - they might have read it the same way.

Good girl but bad  -- Proud sister of the amazing, blackberry-sweet Violet Girl

Sometimes bound and cuntrolled, sometimes free and easy 

"I'm a pretty good cook, I'm sitting on my groceries.
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Oniya

And those would be the actors and musicians that end up in situations like Lindsay Lohan, or worse.  MJ had a crew of enablers around him, allowing him to keep using Propofol as a sleep aid (for those who've forgotten, that's a surgical anesthetic).
"Language was invented for one reason, boys - to woo women.~*~*~Don't think it's all been done before
And in that endeavor, laziness will not do." ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think we're never gonna win this war
Robin Williams-Dead Poets Society ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think your world's gonna fall apart
I do have a cause, though.  It's obscenity.  I'm for it.  - Tom Lehrer~*~All you need is your beautiful heart
O/O's Updated 5/11/21 - A/A's - Current Status! - Writing a novel - all draws for Fool of Fire up!
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Kythia

#63
Quote from: Oniya on August 20, 2013, 10:45:05 AM
And those would be the actors and musicians that end up in situations like Lindsay Lohan, or worse.  MJ had a crew of enablers around him, allowing him to keep using Propofol as a sleep aid (for those who've forgotten, that's a surgical anesthetic).

Potentially.  Or like Paul McCartney.  Or David Bowie.  Or one of loads of other examples.  Ozzy Osbourne.  The list goes on

ETA: John Panazzo.  IIRC, you're a Styx fan
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Oniya

Sir Paul cites his own rock-bottom at 1981, when he was jailed for 9 days trying to take weed into Japan.  His thoughts at the time were 'What have I done to my family?'

David Bowie broke out of his cocaine addiction in 1978, referring to himself as 'totally crazed' during that period.

Even Ozzy has recently apologized to family, friends, and fans for his drug use. 
"Language was invented for one reason, boys - to woo women.~*~*~Don't think it's all been done before
And in that endeavor, laziness will not do." ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think we're never gonna win this war
Robin Williams-Dead Poets Society ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think your world's gonna fall apart
I do have a cause, though.  It's obscenity.  I'm for it.  - Tom Lehrer~*~All you need is your beautiful heart
O/O's Updated 5/11/21 - A/A's - Current Status! - Writing a novel - all draws for Fool of Fire up!
Requests updated March 17

Kythia

Indeed.  But that's not what people remember them for is it?  The point is that pace your comment about them harming their careers, colossal drug usage did absolutely no harm whatsoever to their careers and in many cases is what made them in any way successful (or at least memorable, which for an entertainer is basically the same thing)
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gaggedLouise

#66
Quote from: Oniya on August 20, 2013, 10:45:05 AM
And those would be the actors and musicians that end up in situations like Lindsay Lohan, or worse.  MJ had a crew of enablers around him, allowing him to keep using Propofol as a sleep aid (for those who've forgotten, that's a surgical anesthetic).

Nods, sometimes, but you know, rock stars on tour can get away with stuff that makes Lindsay Lohan's antics look almost like child's play, without more than local media attention. If they're at a long distance from big gossip magazines that their fans would be able to read, and just bumping in and out of a country in two days, it's not as if it's going to stick to them.

Axl Rose did a gig in Stockholm with his line-up of Guns'n'Roses around the time when Chinese Democracy finally came out. True to form he was really intoxicated on stage, but as long as it's during the show it really isn't much to bother about, with him it's sort of part of the deal. What landed in the papers was how he had called his tour manager from the hotel late after the show, and asked him to arrange some groupies and entertainment. The guy procrastinated a bit but most likely said he would get something. Anyway, at almost 3 a.m. Axl descends into the expensively furnished hotel lounge, gets irritated by the lack of seductive people, smashes some valuable wall mirrors, behaves threateningly and calls out at a couple of other guests there: "Are you supposed to be the entertainment?!" (good line...)  :D

For the record, buying sexual services outright for money is illegal around here, and if the tour manager had done what he was asked for both he and his boss would have been in really hot water. But let's see, it was still serious destruction of hotel property to the tune of many thousands of dollars, unprovoked threats, attempted instigation of hiring girls...Axl spent the rest of the night asleep in a cell at the police HQ, but when he woke up he was "not in a state that seemed conducive to any interrogation" according to the cops, so he and the band were just driven out to the airport and seen off.

Someone pointed out later that the police had made a slip by not forcing him to sign an admission that he had been charged with some of this, but I guess they were just eager to see the back of him. The chances of having Axl Rose extradited from the U.S. for a trial in Stockholm are zero of course. ::) (on the other hand, he may have some trouble gigging there in the future, if this happens again - but that's only local: I don't think any of this made much of a noise in the international music press)

And as Kythia is on to, I don't think his fans minded any of it.


(I guess there was some kind of private deal afterwards between Axl and the distinguished hotel whose mirrors he had smashed, though)


Good girl but bad  -- Proud sister of the amazing, blackberry-sweet Violet Girl

Sometimes bound and cuntrolled, sometimes free and easy 

"I'm a pretty good cook, I'm sitting on my groceries.
Come up to my kitchen, I'll show you my best recipes"

Kythia

I have never in my life been as disappointed as I was with Chinese Democracy.  I heard "Better" before the album was released and was excited but then...

Anyway, Sweden should put a extradition request for him in.  I didn't realise it until just now but all my life I have dreamed of seeing Julian Assange and Axl Rose holed up in an Embassy together evading the forces of Swedish justice.  I don't want to live in a world where that doesn't happen.
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gaggedLouise

#68
Paul McCartney said in some interview about the sixties, looking back from the eighties: "Yeah, I must have taken thousands of trips". Though George Martin maintains for his part that he, personally, never took any drugs and indeed was unaware of the Beatles' powerful drug associations. I can kind of believe the first part of his statement, the second half - no, not really. (I saw GM live doing his roadshow on "The Making of Sgt.Pepper", one of the most riveting music conferences I've ever attended)

Okay, back on topic a bit. Placing moralizing judgments on musicmaking isn't my thing. As long as it's essentially not hooked up with violent activities I think it doesn't merit blanket judgments on the value of the music, and of the human value of the artist. Station to Station and Low are brilliant records even if Bowie was heaving lots of coke while he was making them, and really came close to copping out altogether. But most people would not have produced those albums while snorting coke, would they?

Good girl but bad  -- Proud sister of the amazing, blackberry-sweet Violet Girl

Sometimes bound and cuntrolled, sometimes free and easy 

"I'm a pretty good cook, I'm sitting on my groceries.
Come up to my kitchen, I'll show you my best recipes"

Cyrano Johnson

Quote from: gaggedLouise on August 20, 2013, 11:13:52 AMWhat landed in the papers was how he had called his tour manager from the hotel late after the show, and asked him to arrange some groupies and entertainment.

Encapsulates in both hilarious and sad fashion how far Axl had fallen by this time right there. There could be nothing more pathetic for a RawkStarr -- especially one like Axl, who in his youth could've "opened a chain of used panties stores" as Cracked.com once put it -- than to have to call your manager and ask them to arrange for some groupies*. That is not how groupies are supposed to work.

I'm reminded of the time I was hanging on the patio at my local and looked over to see a group of what sort of looked like biker ruffians or something. Asked the bartender who they were and he said, "Flock of Seagulls." ?!!?!! I had to get independent confirmation from five different staff before I'd believe he wasn't joking. You had just to look at them to see they were on one of those soul-crushing you're-not-a-rock-star-anymore-asshole-just-deal-with-it tours and trying to make the best of it, but the worst moment was overhearing the lead singer on the phone with his girlfriend shouting "Oh, so you've decided to fuck real rock stars now?!" Jesus.

The funny thing was, I remember thinking their new music was actually really good. A hell of a lot better than their old music.

(* Unless of course you've grown up in the interim and are just in it for the music, but clearly Axl hadn't gotten there.)
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Yeah.. Axl Rose is about the worst tool out there. He sued Doctor Pepper for an ad campaign in 2008 and was an utter tool to his orginal band when the Hall of Fame event went down.