Griping About Politics

[Forsaken]

They attempt to escape to *rich* countries. Nobody is trying to flee from Cuba to Haiti.

This literally the opposite of what I said, I already told you to stop putting words in people's mouths.

Glass houses.

Then why do they to the shock and horror of the Left tend to vote against the Democrats because they have seen the horrors of Socialism first hand?

Keep denying. It is what the Left do. Deny, deny, deny.

Soon one of you will go crying to one of the Admins or Mods and I will receive a warning PM even though I have done nothing wrong other than disagree with you.

[Chulanowa]

That had absolutely nothing to do with Socialism and everything to do with captured German technology and scientists.

Oh wow really? Seriously? I am talking about millions of Ukrainians being killed and starved to death by Russia. I am talking about millions killed in genocides committed by various Communist and Socialist zealots. But of course that is fine by you. Chances are if you were dropped in one of these Socialist hell holes you would be screaming for a ticket back home within minutes.

Find that space between 0 and 11 dude.

[Notadrywall]

quote]Then why do they to the shock and horror of the Left tend to vote against the Democrats because they have seen the horrors of Socialism first hand?[/quote]

Could you try and restate what ever you're saying here coherently.

Keep denying. It is what the Left do. Deny, deny, deny.

.... I haven't denied anything. I get the feeling you're shadowboxing your own imagination and not even reading what I'm saying.

Soon one of you will go crying to one of the Admins or Mods and I will receive a warning PM even though I have done nothing wrong other than disagree with you.

You realise that you're literally making up things that haven't happened to get angry about, right?

[Forsaken]

quote]Then why do they to the shock and horror of the Left tend to vote against the Democrats because they have seen the horrors of Socialism first hand?

Could you try and restate what ever you're saying here coherently.

.... I haven't denied anything. I get the feeling you're shadowboxing your own imagination and not even reading what I'm saying.

You realise that you're literally making up things that haven't happened to get angry about, right?

What you are writing isn't worth reading. You realize that denying and saying that I am just making things up is just making you angry, right?

Anyway, if I have learned anything at all from all my years on forums is that you should never ever try and discuss anything with a Left Winger. Total waste of time. And before you get all pissy, you addressed me. I was just here discussing my experience on being Conservative on forums run by Left Wingers.

I wasn't here to have futile discussions with Left Wingers who deny and perform acrobatics to try and prove their points or wriggle out of what they have just said.

[Notadrywall]

Starting to suspect your negative experience being on forums is not *entirely* a result of being a conservative...

[Forsaken]

Starting to suspect your negative experience being on forums is not *entirely* a result of being a conservative...

Thanks for behaving the way that I was talking about. I know that will go way over your head.

[TheGlyphstone]

Starting to suspect your negative experience being on forums is not *entirely* a result of being a conservative...

There's a reason I think of myself as a 'European-style conservative' these days, and it's because behavior like this is the standard-issue playbook for the American variety - (again with the exception of Gloomcookie and Keelan, ghosts in the wind). I'm surprised your red flags didn't go up at the very first victim-complex complaint post about being banned for 'stating facts', considering the 'facts' most so-called conservatives mindlessly repeat are things like 'biological gender is a scientific truth', 'the 2020 election was fradulently stolen', or as seen here, 'Nazis were socialists'. I, like Charlie Brown, keep going to kick that football in hopes that maybe this time I'll find someone capable of acting like an adult in political debate, and the Lucy of reality keeps letting me down.

That didn't happen.
And if it did, it wasn't that bad.
And if it was, that's not a big deal.
And if it is, that's not my fault.
And if it was, I didn't mean it.
And if I did, you deserved it.

So to get back on topic and stop feeding the troll, there's another of my gripes about politics - the complete collapse of anything resembling inter-partisan conversation. Siloing and echo chambers are very real dangers, to both sides of the equation. Much like religious cults (no coincidence here), people who venture outside their safe comfortable space full of ideological allies and face unrelenting hostility learn that it's safer and happier inside.

[Rinzler]

[Socialism] Seems to have changed China from an occupied and divided land of warlords and peasants into the burgeoning economic power of the 21st century.

Hmm. Yeah. Given the horrendous human rights abuses perpetrated by the CCP - the most egregious example being its treatment of the Uighurs - I'm not sure 'you gotta hand it to China'.

[Chulanowa]

Hmm. Yeah. Given the horrendous human rights abuses perpetrated by the CCP - the most egregious example being its treatment of the Uighurs - I'm not sure 'you gotta hand it to China'.

Funny enough, the two things don't cancel out. A country can both be commended for lifting a few billion people out of dirt-eating poverty while overcoming a fractured history of warlords and invaders, and censured for its human rights abuses.

[Rinzler]

Funny enough, the two things don't cancel out. A country can both be commended for lifting a few billion people out of dirt-eating poverty while overcoming a fractured history of warlords and invaders, and censured for its human rights abuses.

Fair enough. No doubt those numerous Uighurs who have been pressed into slave labour must find much to commend about China's economic performance too.

[TheGlyphstone]

The totalitarian police state wearing a red rubber Communist mask that is modern China should probably be in its own thread, rather than derailing the topic yet again.

[RedRose]

I feel like, maybe 10 15 years ago, China had bloomed beautifully. And now it's devolved.

[Chulanowa]

Fair enough. No doubt those numerous Uighurs who have been pressed into slave labour must find much to commend about China's economic performance too.

If you want me to address a straw man you have to give me a YouTube video of yourself in full costume singing "Follow The Yellow Brick Road."

Until then I'm just going to point out no one but you made the argument you're mad at.

[Rinzler]

If you want me to address a straw man you have to give me a YouTube video of yourself in full costume singing "Follow The Yellow Brick Road."

Until then I'm just going to point out no one but you made the argument you're mad at.

You held up China as a model of socialist economic success. I just pointed out one of the considerably less savoury aspects of that model. In fairness, I can understand why you'd have preferred it if I'd kept quiet about it.

[TheGlyphstone]

Now I'm curious, Chula - you say you identify as a Marxist/Leninist, but you're speaking very positively of Maoist China. I was under the strong impression, from other self-described Communists, that the two were not very compatible or friendly with each other.

[Forsaken]

Well, I got the warning PM for being conservative.

[Oniya]

No, you got the warning PM for being rude.

[Notadrywall]

You held up China as a model of socialist economic success. I just pointed out one of the considerably less savoury aspects of that model.

Having less savoury aspects in no way precludes something from being an example of a successful economic model. If it did, you would be forced to conclude that every model has failed and better things are impossible.

[Rinzler]

Having less savoury aspects in no way precludes something from being an example of a successful economic model. If it did, you would be forced to conclude that every model has failed and better things are impossible.

It's only successful in strictly monetary terms. As a specifically socialist model, in cannot be successful by virtue of incorporating ethnic minority forced labour. Either that, or it cannot be described as a socialist model.

[Notadrywall]

It's also wildly successful in terms of quality of life for its citizens.

As I said, if your standard for success is perfection, then all systems have categorically failed.

[Keelan]

It's also wildly successful in terms of quality of life for its citizens.

As I said, if your standard for success is perfection, then all systems have categorically failed.

I don't necessarily assume the argument is 'it's imperfect, ergo failure', rather that the flaws of the system - utilization of forced labor (and child labor, etc) - do not make for what one would call a 'successful' economic system.

[Rinzler]

It's also wildly successful in terms of quality of life for its citizens.

As I said, if your standard for success is perfection, then all systems have categorically failed.

I never said my standard of success is perfection. That's your invention. What I'm saying is that my standard of success for a socialist economic model - which is what Chula posited - is one which doesn't feature ethnic minority forced labour. And I'm quite sure you'd find the overwhelming majority of socialists would agree with this.

[Notadrywall]

Yes, a perfect socialist system would have no instances of forced labour (though it may still be accused of it.) However, if perfection is not your standard of success, then it's entirely possible to consider China a (qualified) success.

Remember that forced labour has been a feature of basically every system to date.

[Rinzler]

Right. Well. I think I'll bow out for the time being, otherwise Forsaken won't be the only one getting a warning for being rude. TTFN.

[Notadrywall]

That's fair, I can understand why you would have preferred I keep quiet.