The Hands of Their Winged Overlords: (DnD 3.5/ NC-E)

[Idej]

Many millenia has passed since the first dragons took claim in the rulership of all the land known to lesser kind and began to carve their ancient, yet still existent nations throughout the world or Arisdraenil.  Dragons most in particular the metallic, the chromatic, and the gem dragons have created three world superpowers through a variety of alliances and pacts that have thus taken root on two continents and series of islands and smaller landmasses whose actions towards each other determines the fate of the entire planet.

Each power has fought multitude of wars with each other, and against each other.  Whether it be for resources, land, or a sheer clash in ideals the outcome of each war has been devastating on all sides.  It has been nearly 700 years since the last war has been fought and while the lesser races no longer feel the ravages of these wars dragonkind still does.  A truce was created that ended that conflict, only due to the fact that each side has lost enough to convince them otherwise.

The present conflicts consists of shadow wars, skirmishes, pirating, and even a few cases small battles, but each side is locked in resources, powers, and land that they can't afford to go to fullscale war without endangering everyone.

Many of the dragons in these nations have kept mainly out of the politics of the shorter-lived lesser races and have spread their blood to them creating a new caste of high nobility whose members are descendants of dragons and mainly keep control of the lands of their draconic forebearers.  They are the will and tools for the ruling dragons and can bring either salvation or devastation to all who live within their borders.

You are one of the denizens of Arisdraenil, and reside within the clawed grasp of one of the three draconic superpowers:  Metallic, Gem, and Chromatic.  You may support or reject the ideals of your scaly overlords, but you live within their grasp.

It is time to choose who you serve.  Do you serve the metallic dragons, the gem dragons, or the chromatic dragons?  Or do you not serve any of them?

RULES

This game is a 3.5 Dungeons and Dragons game.

36-Point Buy

Level 8 (1,000 EXP for creating items)

Hit Points:  Max at first and reroll any ones

Races:  All races are allowed just provide me the stats of said race if I don't have the book that has the description of the race.

Flaws and Traits:  They are allowed, but if you have a trait you must have a flaw that is equal to the trait.

Money:  27,000 gp no more than half can be spent on one item

Books Allowed:  Any, just nothing campaign specific unless presented to me and upon my approval.  Here are the non-campaign specific books that I own.

Please note that while you don't need them to play this game, three books are handy to have.  Draconomicon, Dragon Magic, Races of the Dragon.

Arms and Equipments Guide
Book of Erotic Fantasy
Book of Exalted Deeds
Book of Vile Darkness
Cityscape/ Dungeonscape
All of the Completes
Deities and Demigods
Draconomicon
Dragon Magic
Drow of the Underdark
DMG I and II
Elder Evils
Enemies and Allies
Exemplars of Evil
Expanded Psionics Handbook
Fiend Folio
Fiendish Codex I and II
Frostburn/ Sandstorm/ Stormwrack
Ghostwalk
Heroes of Battle and Horror
Libris Mortis
Living Greyhawk Gazetteer
Lords of Madness
Magic Item Compendium
Magic of Incarnum
Miniatures Handbook
Monster Manual I, II, III, IV, and V
Oriental Adventures
Planar Handbook
Player's Handbook I and II
All of the Races
Rules Compendium
Savage Species
Spell Compendium
Stronghold Builder's Guide
Tome of Battle and Tome of Magic
Unearthed Arcana
Weapons of Legacy

If you have any questions, feel free to PM me.

[Ryvaken]

Having inadvertently inspired the world and assisted in writing it, my character has been ready for a while.

Tylya ari'Aujirgix, Dragon Knight (homebrew modification of Dragon Shaman), Draconic Human, Descendant of Bronze, reporting ready.
Cohort Elvern Irisv, Human Favored Soul of Tamara, Descendant of Gold, reporting ready.

Between myself and my cohort, the group's healing duties are largely accounted for. Tylya retains the Dragon Shaman's healing abilities, including the "Vigor Aura" that freely heals all allie up to 50% HP and the double-strong Lay on Hands. Elvern has a fully charged Wand of Lesser Vigor and Cure Minor, Light, and Moderate Wounds and Lesser Restoration, with 6/7/5 slots per day.

That said, if anyone is interested in playing a cleric or the like, I basically whipped Elvern up in an hour and will be happy to alter him to a rogue or arcanist that will serve just as well. As for Tylya, she has more than a few other talents and isn't designed to be more than an adequate secondary healer anyway. Someone who can save the cleric a few spell slots.

Obviously I have the Leadership feat. In case you were curious, Tylya has a ship, a pinnace called The Caroline, and her followers are the ship's crew. Idej told me repeatedly that this is not a nautical campaign, and while it is probable the ship will see use, it currently sits as a very expensive set piece. I personally have no intentions of sailing off for parts unknown and derailing whatever plot Idej has come up with. While Gold, Topaz, Green, and Black dragons all have aquatic tendencies, the Bronze dragons are the ones most related to the ocean, and I could not see a noble of Bronze being anything less than a sea captain.

Full sheets can be found http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=173612 and http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=173682 for the curious.

More RP wise...

Tylya is noble-born and she knows it. While she can be kind and generous to her lessors, they are her lessors. She values honor, duty, loyalty, and other variations of that theme. Inspiring characters are Mr. Fitzwilliam Darcy of Pride and Prejudice and several officers from Horatio Hornblower.

Elvern is not noble-born and his draconic traits and geneology speak of one of his ancestors being an illegitimate and unclaimed son of a noble that was covered up to avoid a scandal. While being chosen by a goddess is enough to prevent any scandal falling on him, it is nonetheless the case that he is utterly unbred and untrained for the rigors of high society. Inspiring characters are anyone I can think of the married, bought, or was otherwise thrust from peasantry into high station.

[NobleWolf]

Here's my character concept.

Name: Numarra "Fleeting Rain"

Race: Catfolk (RotW)

Age: 18

Classes: Wilder/Thrallherd

Biography:
Her people are catfolk who dwell in the savanna bordering the Brass Sands. For generations her clan, "Fleeting Rain", had kept to themselves, not wanting any outside interference. As surrounding nations further developed, the catfolk saw a need to modernize and adapt.

Numarra was born with abilities granted from a draconic source. As she grew, she found others flocked around her. Most wrote it off as typical clique behavior, but over time it began to develop. Her teenage mind began to unlock strange powers, granting her control over others and the world around her.

Tapping these inner strengths, she developed further upon her social skills and quickly gathered a following. Before long she had attained a higher rank and respect amongst her peers.

Not too many years later she was sent to represent her clan in distant lands, bringing new resources in exchange for hides and similar trappings. While she herself doesn't feel a connection to the many dragon overlords and their underlings, she knows to disrespect or anger them is to harm business.

Her entourage of believers as well as her personal bodyguard named Raka always keep her company. Such a devoted following has inflated her already abundant ego and overall sense of self-worth. While speaking in courts and grand halls is her duty, Numarra would rather be exploring caverns or spending a warm night under the stars. She often does find this time between appointments and trips, all while keeping her company worried about her safety.

Numarra feels a heavy burden, always having to weigh options, barter for her people, and deciding how to treat her help. Perhaps she is still too young for such decision making, or maybe she lacks the sort of discipline required.

That's what I've got so far. It's been a while since I've written anything up, so forgive any glaring errors. I'll give it another look over when I find the time.

[Anathanasia]

I'm intrigued, NC-E DnD, huh? And just when I return and am looking for a game or two.

Before I get too deep, how is this gonna run? DM and players? How many players? Traditional PCs = adventuring party format?

[Relentless Imp]

Hmm. What sort of power level are you aiming for for characters in this game? If high-powered, then an Erudite (CPsi) 6/Beholder Mage (LoM) 2 going into Cerebremancer (XPH) could be a scion for metallic dragon agendas. If mid-powered, a Spellscale Sorcerer 5/Mindbender (CArc) 1/Incantatrix (PGtF) 2, eventually entering into Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil makes for a solid arcanist that supports the draconic overlords. If low-powered, then a Human Cleric dedicated to Bahamut or Tiamat would add to a party's survivability.

[Idej]

I'm intrigued, NC-E DnD, huh? And just when I return and am looking for a game or two.

Before I get too deep, how is this gonna run? DM and players? How many players? Traditional PCs = adventuring party format?

This game is going to be have a major plot to it, but not all of the adventures in this game will revolve around the plot.

I'm not sure what you mean with your second question.

As for how many players, I am accepting from 3-10 people for this game, with the possibility of dividing that number into two groups.  As for party format, it is all really up to you to what you want to be.  I leave it all to the players to decide on what they want to do regarding party format.

Hmm. What sort of power level are you aiming for for characters in this game? If high-powered, then an Erudite (CPsi) 6/Beholder Mage (LoM) 2 going into Cerebremancer (XPH) could be a scion for metallic dragon agendas. If mid-powered, a Spellscale Sorcerer 5/Mindbender (CArc) 1/Incantatrix (PGtF) 2, eventually entering into Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil makes for a solid arcanist that supports the draconic overlords. If low-powered, then a Human Cleric dedicated to Bahamut or Tiamat would add to a party's survivability.

All books, besides campaign specific books unless otherwise approved by me are open for use, so that means you pick just about whatever you want to play.

Just one thing to know, don't pick something that could have a high possibility of clashing with the other players.  Other than that, the sky is pretty much the limit.

[Zaer Darkwail]

Hmmm, I could be interested in. So far we got knightly healing figure (draconic human dragon shaman), a charismatic mystic (catfolk wilder/Thrallherd) and also arcanist (spellscale sorcerer) or a psion or (third) cleric by based my latest player post.

Now if Ryvaken changeshis cohort into a rogue (if we get full blown cleric from Relentless Imp) then I guess I can be either filling arcanist slot or group needs someone fill role of a scoundrel (skill monkey plainly said). So I ask does anyone have offense (RP wise) deepwyrm drow ninja 2/Monk 3/Dragon Descendant 1? I wonder that as I will have Ascetic Stalker feat does it make PrC levels stack for Ki Power storage (not that I get many ninja powers but it determines how many times per day I can turn invisible for 1 round).

[Kate]

i would be interested.

I dont have access to all those books - i was hoping a sorcerer class that specialises in charming / mind domination preferably.

any suggestions?

[Mnemaxa]

i would be interested.

I dont have access to all those books - i was hoping a sorcerer class that specialises in charming / mind domination preferably.

any suggestions?

Beguiler from the Player's Handbook 2, who also serves as a moderately workable thief/rogue type.

[NobleWolf]

i would be interested.

I dont have access to all those books - i was hoping a sorcerer class that specialises in charming / mind domination preferably.

any suggestions?

I would have to second beguiler, if you have that book. If not, complete arcane has the mind bender prestige class. Mind Bender isn't that great though (IMO), which Is why I went the psionic route instead with Thrallherd. A good Bard build has potential too, but their low saving throw DCs tend to damper things a bit.

[Kate]

is there any that specialise in polymorphing myself or others ?

[Mnemaxa]

is there any that specialize in polymorphing myself or others ?

Well....druids self-polymorph, but m ostly into animals.  However there are prestige classes that grant a lot of abilities to shapeshift, the main ones being the Master of Many Forms and the WarShaper, which can go with either druid wildshape or with sorcerous polymorph sells.  However, you might want to look at how the GM is running polymorphs - they can be pretty limiting.  Daggerspell Shaper is also a potentially useful one.  I know Daggerspell Shaper is in the Complete Adventurer, but I'm not certain of the other two.

[NobleWolf]

is there any that specialise in polymorphing myself or others ?

That depends on what you want. If you want to shapeshift into something big and nasty, Druid is the best for that (without prestige classes). If you just want a more physical disguise, any class that gives Alter Self can do that. That or playing a Changeling from Races of Eberron.
You could pull it off with Sorcerer to a lesser extent and keep charm/dominate spells an option, but I'd recommend sticking to a full spellcasting progression prestige class.

[Kate]

sorry for all these questions - but i can i be a lady dragon (who want to start her own cult thinking it may tip the favour in her kinds favour if if it managed properly?)

[Idej]

Hmmm, I could be interested in. So far we got knightly healing figure (draconic human dragon shaman), a charismatic mystic (catfolk wilder/Thrallherd) and also arcanist (spellscale sorcerer) or a psion or (third) cleric by based my latest player post.

Now if Ryvaken changeshis cohort into a rogue (if we get full blown cleric from Relentless Imp) then I guess I can be either filling arcanist slot or group needs someone fill role of a scoundrel (skill monkey plainly said). So I ask does anyone have offense (RP wise) deepwyrm drow ninja 2/Monk 3/Dragon Descendant 1? I wonder that as I will have Ascetic Stalker feat does it make PrC levels stack for Ki Power storage (not that I get many ninja powers but it determines how many times per day I can turn invisible for 1 round).

Ryvaken will most likely change his cohort to be whatever else the party does not have or something that will compliment his character's abilities.

As for the Ascetic Stalker feat I remember that it mentions that your monk and ninja levels stack for certain abilities that each class has.

If you can provide me a good explanation as to why the Ascetic Stalker feat should be able to be in use for what ever PrC you wish to use then I shall allow it.

i would be interested.

I dont have access to all those books - i was hoping a sorcerer class that specialises in charming / mind domination preferably.

any suggestions?

Beguiler is a good suggestion for a base class, but you have also said that you wanted to use shapeshifting too.

Well, it all really depends on what you want to do like what the others have said.  Do you want full big and nasty shapeshifting powers similar to that of a druid or is it more of a physical disguise.  There are plenty of PrCs that can help you with a plethora of shapeshifting powers it just all depends on what you are thinking of.

sorry for all these questions - but i can i be a lady dragon (who want to start her own cult thinking it may tip the favour in her kinds favour if if it managed properly?)

Now when you mean by a lady dragon do you mean an actual true dragon or am I mistaken?

No worries about all of these questions, questions are good. :)

[Kate]

yep a dragon - through and through ideally a purple dragon.

Ideally one that can at least change shape into a humaniod female.

yes they are evil but they are lawful evil - she will be honest in her intentions (sex cult) - which is not part of the existing values of good (thus evil) but she is consistent and true to her word and honest (lawful).

I don't mind if you have a savage level adjustment based on her being a purple dragon.

or an outright decision my starting items you choose perhaps one necklace that allows clothes to transform wiht me would be ideal.

[NobleWolf]

sorry for all these questions - but i can i be a lady dragon (who want to start her own cult thinking it may tip the favour in her kinds favour if if it managed properly?)

A true dragon would have too high of an effective character level to work.
The leadership feat could give you followers. Races of the Dragon has the Dragonborn template and Draconomicon has a feat that lets Druids Wild Shape into dragons. Between those, you could do fairly well at achieving that.
Oh, and not all dragons are evil, they come in all alignments and temperaments.
Hope that helps!
Feel free to PM me if you'd like.

[Idej]

I have to agree with Noble Wolf on that one.

Dragons can be created as characters, but in order to get to a decent LA for them they are really young and thus might not be the best choice for a character.

Now generally speaking dragons act typically of their color/ metal/ gem and follow the typical alignment that are associated with them.  Now there might be some oddballs out there, but those are usually rarities. :)

Feel free to continue asking questions and sending PMs to me or anyone who you would like to ask questions too. :)

[Relentless Imp]

How do you feel about homebrew? Specifically, this race.

[Kate]

i have an idea.

Even a level adjustment of 9 or 10 so I am "first level" would be fine with me. what about that i am young dragon (hatchling - ie crap and effectively useless in battles ) - but having cult followers (not players just groups we find) gives me "experience" allowing me to grow. And yes i start out significantly outmatched by others (my effective power is a lot less than others in the party).

I would adore to be an odd ball dragon of some kind.

My plan was to undermine the powerful metallics, chromatics but taking their followers from underneath their noses.  Failing that some demonic futa chick but a dragon cult seems to fit this theme well.
(either way it would be my character pushing the "e" theme ).

[NobleWolf]

i have an idea.

Even a level adjustment of 9 or 10 so I am "first level" would be fine with me. what about that i am young dragon (hatchling - ie crap and effectively useless in battles ) - but having cult followers (not players just groups we find) gives me "experience" allowing me to grow. And yes i start out significantly outmatched by others (my effective power is a lot less than others in the party).

I would adore to be an odd ball dragon of some kind.

My plan was to undermine the powerful metallics, chromatics but taking their followers from underneath their noses.

It's a level 8 game. Going by the SRD, you could be...
Wyrmling Black Dragon, 4HD, +3LA, 1 class level
Wyrmling White Dragon, 3HD, +2LA, 2 class levels
Wyrmling Brass Dragon, 4HD, +2LA, 2 class levels
Wyrmling Copper Dragon, 5HD, +2LA, 1 class level
All of which are tiny in size, which I doubt is what you want.
I suppose the DM could throw the rules out and let you play an ECL 20+ character, but that would probably be unfair to everyone else.
Really, You'd be better off with taking the Dragonborn Template and Master of Many forms prestige class if you want to eventually be a large dragon.
I'm sorry to say there aren't any good supplements (That I'm aware of) to accomplish what your asking for.

Failing that some demonic futa chick but a dragon cult seems to fit this theme well.
(either way it would be my character pushing the "e" theme ).

Now this is very plausible with plenty of source books to back it up. Give us a concept and I'm sure we could throw dozens of ideas out, easliy.

[Kate]

then a demonic futa chick with domme exotic-extreme cult hungry issues it is... (if that is ok with others)

[Zaer Darkwail]

No issues with my drow :P.

Anycase I noticed I cannot qualify for ascetic stalker until I have 4th level as monk (as it asks ki strike [magic] as regs), but I do plan get the feat and final monk level needed later. But reason why it should stack with monk PrC is because the feat allows ninja/monk levels stack for unarmed strike dmg and ki strike feature from the monk, and ninja side just increase ki pool. So I thinked as Dragon Descendant improves pretty much all monk aspects (and is 'mystical power' PrC) I find it not unreasonable it would increase ki pool (but not improve ki strike feature as it does not affect that side of the monk). As full build what I had in mind for my drow in 20 level progress would be Ninja 4/Monk 4/Dragon Descendant 10.

[Delta Echo]

*throws hat in ring*

I'm already in 20-or-so games, what's one more awesome one?  :D

Thinking of going with class-to-be-determined/Occult Slayer, somebody who believes that (a) the dragons must go and (b) arcane magic is "of the dragons", therefore (c) arcanists must go*.  >:)

* Sooner or later, those on the same team being 'later'.  :P

[Mnemaxa]

I'm idly wondering if the Monastic Training and Talsahtora Adept feats from Ebberon are allowed.  Monastic Trainign allows a second class to be taken as if it were part of the monk's training, allowing for multiclassing for that one class without monk penalties.  Talashtora adept allows a psionic class that the character has monastic training in to continue Flurry of Blows, Wisdom bonus to AC, and Unarmed strike damage to progress as if the monastic training class were equivalent levels of monk (but no other benefits accrue). 

A monk 1/Ardent 7 with Talashtora trainign would have the Unarmed Damage, Ac Bonus from Wisadom (while unarmed) and Flurry of Blows of an 8th level monk.  I was considering an Elan servant fo a lawful gem dragon of one sort or another....either a Sapphire or an Emerald gem dragon....

[Zaer Darkwail]

I'm idly wondering if the Monastic Training and Talsahtora Adept feats from Ebberon are allowed.  Monastic Trainign allows a second class to be taken as if it were part of the monk's training, allowing for multiclassing for that one class without monk penalties.  Talashtora adept allows a psionic class that the character has monastic training in to continue Flurry of Blows, Wisdom bonus to AC, and Unarmed strike damage to progress as if the monastic training class were equivalent levels of monk (but no other benefits accrue). 

A monk 1/Ardent 7 with Talashtora trainign would have the Unarmed Damage, Ac Bonus from Wisadom (while unarmed) and Flurry of Blows of an 8th level monk.  I was considering an Elan servant fo a lawful gem dragon of one sort or another....either a Sapphire or an Emerald gem dragon....

Hey, I called dibs first on monk char :P. Altough your concept is more a psion than monk but still it means there will be two 'dragon fu' practioners.

[Mnemaxa]

I was mostly just curious; I wouldn't want to step on anyone's toes, and I just realized the build would also be another blaster as well as a secondary healer, so it would be repetitious in any case.  So, please ignore my question, Idej.

[Ryvaken]

I wish I had dragooned internet access sooner. A few more days and I'll be back home.

Anyway, before I forget, I have thematic opposition to drow. The world as devised has no Underdark and the closest analody are the caves held by the Sapphire Dragons, who do not abide the vast majority of Underdark dwellers. This was an intentional choice.

Second observation: psionic types should tend from the Gem lands and seas. They are rare among both Metallic and Chromatic.

Third observation: Demonic or Chromatic descendents will need to demonstrate some kind of redemption from their evil heritage before they get within a mile of my ship unless they want to be shown the color of their blood.

Fourth observation: On the early question of power scale, bad question. If the character is going to be fun to RP with, I seriously doubt anyone will care if there needs to be some creative reacessments to make the gameplay more even. Likewise if the character is an overpowered kill-a-lot with no personality, always looking for the next fight, that character may not be welcome. For my part, I know my character to be solidly on the low end of the power scale, but I deliberatly chose a support role I believe to make an interesting character.

...I think I had other observations but I've forgotten them now. Oh yes! I am more than willing to adjust my cohort to fill whatever gap we have...within reason. Being three levels behind (my own level adjustment minus two more for Cohort) kills his effectiveness in certain roles, regardless of his build.

[Idej]

How do you feel about homebrew? Specifically, this race.

Well, I could make my decision if the page would load up for me, so I can't say much about that.  Sorry.

then a demonic futa chick with domme exotic-extreme cult hungry issues it is... (if that is ok with others)

There are plenty of races, templates, and classes that could easily get what you want for what you are talking about. :)

No issues with my drow :P.

Anycase I noticed I cannot qualify for ascetic stalker until I have 4th level as monk (as it asks ki strike [magic] as regs), but I do plan get the feat and final monk level needed later. But reason why it should stack with monk PrC is because the feat allows ninja/monk levels stack for unarmed strike dmg and ki strike feature from the monk, and ninja side just increase ki pool. So I thinked as Dragon Descendant improves pretty much all monk aspects (and is 'mystical power' PrC) I find it not unreasonable it would increase ki pool (but not improve ki strike feature as it does not affect that side of the monk). As full build what I had in mind for my drow in 20 level progress would be Ninja 4/Monk 4/Dragon Descendant 10.

Okay sounds reasonable, thanks for explaining yourself. :)  Just let me look at the PrC some more and the feat and I'll get to you later on that.

[Zaer Darkwail]

Aha, okay. Hmmmm, in that case then I go to the most 'normal' option; a human ninja 2/monk 4/dragon Descendant 2. With dragontouched feat so he has blood of dragons in him but it is very minor. But he has strong spiritual side with his dragon ancestors. In his case of scenario he has blood in both chromatic and metallic dragons in him (mostly chromatic but plan have at least two metallic ancestors from five possible ancestors).

Edit; Ok, I start work on the charsheet once PrC is approved. PrC is in Dragon Magic, pg34.

[Kate]

i will be a futa demoness - i was tihnking perhaps if there was a picture (happy for others to recommend any) a character could be created to suit it (happy for any to do so who know these rule sets).

Ideally i would like a form another female player (who likes futa) adores.

[NobleWolf]

I wish I had dragooned internet access sooner. A few more days and I'll be back home.

Anyway, before I forget, I have thematic opposition to drow. The world as devised has no Underdark and the closest analody are the caves held by the Sapphire Dragons, who do not abide the vast majority of Underdark dwellers. This was an intentional choice.

Second observation: psionic types should tend from the Gem lands and seas. They are rare among both Metallic and Chromatic.

Third observation: Demonic or Chromatic descendents will need to demonstrate some kind of redemption from their evil heritage before they get within a mile of my ship unless they want to be shown the color of their blood.

Fourth observation: On the early question of power scale, bad question. If the character is going to be fun to RP with, I seriously doubt anyone will care if there needs to be some creative reacessments to make the gameplay more even. Likewise if the character is an overpowered kill-a-lot with no personality, always looking for the next fight, that character may not be welcome. For my part, I know my character to be solidly on the low end of the power scale, but I deliberatly chose a support role I believe to make an interesting character.

...I think I had other observations but I've forgotten them now. Oh yes! I am more than willing to adjust my cohort to fill whatever gap we have...within reason. Being three levels behind (my own level adjustment minus two more for Cohort) kills his effectiveness in certain roles, regardless of his build.

1: Not a Drizzt fan, I take it?
2: Bloodlines know no borders. This is double true among nobility, since marrying off your son/daughter to a distant noble is commonplace. Also, gem dragons aren't the only sources for psionic ancestry, just a strong one. These are just my observations though.
3: Are we to assume you have the resources and time to meticulously scan each person who walks near your vessel? Well, I'll agree they shouldn't walk about with horns like that villain from legend. It's best to be subtle about such heritage, whether or not you take after them.

Tim Curry is so awesome...

4: Well I really have to agree completely there. It's roleplay before roll playing.

I thought you used ECL to determine the max level of your cohort. That would seem like the fair interpretation, anyway. It says your level -2, not class levels.

[Ryvaken]

The typical interpretation of "level" in that fashion is character level or HD as appropriate, not ECL. Although in this context ECL is much less likely to devalue the cohort. Besides, I used the LA buyback out of UA. I'm only 2000XP shy of level 8 and my ECL is 7.

1. I have only tangental references to Drizzt. However, I present the following. First, I loathe FR as one of the most horrible settings to ever be concieved from the depths of frothing hell. The sourcebooks should be burned and the authors flogged until they learn not to pull that shit again. Second, renegade Dark Elves are trite. I made a few before I really got into the larger communities and suddenly saw that my neophyte RPing with shallow characters that shame me are among the best that archtype has to offer. Third, the Underdark, while interesting, really has no place in a world where the dragons hold sway. No more than Drow coiuld be found in Khyber beneath Eberron, they should not be in the Sapphire Depths beneath Gem, nor exist beneath the protective Metallics nor the dominating Chomatics.

2. You forget just how fanatical the dragons are, and how territorial. This isn't a civilization built upon human concepts, but one that emulates the draconic. Intermingling between breeds is rare with few exceptions. Intermingling metallic/gem/chromatic? Such a union would have crusades against it by the followers of Bahamut and Tiamat alike. Perhaps devotees of Io could protect the offspring, but such a figure makes a better set piece than a PC -- a living axis of political turmoil.

3. If we form a party of some kind, such abilities will inevitably come out. This was more a warning to the idea of "evil, but lawful so she's not that bad" was going to be keelhauled. Repeatedly, if necessary. I have no plans on being an uncompromising no-tolerance lawful-stupi paladin type, but a character who plans to be blatantly evil does cross the line.

[NobleWolf]

The typical interpretation of "level" in that fashion is character level or HD as appropriate, not ECL. Although in this context ECL is much less likely to devalue the cohort. Besides, I used the LA buyback out of UA. I'm only 2000XP shy of level 8 and my ECL is 7.

1. I have only tangental references to Drizzt. However, I present the following. First, I loathe FR as one of the most horrible settings to ever be concieved from the depths of frothing hell. The sourcebooks should be burned and the authors flogged until they learn not to pull that shit again. Second, renegade Dark Elves are trite. I made a few before I really got into the larger communities and suddenly saw that my neophyte RPing with shallow characters that shame me are among the best that archtype has to offer. Third, the Underdark, while interesting, really has no place in a world where the dragons hold sway. No more than Drow coiuld be found in Khyber beneath Eberron, they should not be in the Sapphire Depths beneath Gem, nor exist beneath the protective Metallics nor the dominating Chomatics.

2. You forget just how fanatical the dragons are, and how territorial. This isn't a civilization built upon human concepts, but one that emulates the draconic. Intermingling between breeds is rare with few exceptions. Intermingling metallic/gem/chromatic? Such a union would have crusades against it by the followers of Bahamut and Tiamat alike. Perhaps devotees of Io could protect the offspring, but such a figure makes a better set piece than a PC -- a living axis of political turmoil.

3. If we form a party of some kind, such abilities will inevitably come out. This was more a warning to the idea of "evil, but lawful so she's not that bad" was going to be keelhauled. Repeatedly, if necessary. I have no plans on being an uncompromising no-tolerance lawful-stupi paladin type, but a character who plans to be blatantly evil does cross the line.

1. Kinda harsh, it's just a campaign setting. It didn't burn down your house or anything. At least you didn't have to deal with 4e Faerun.
2. How could I forget something I didn't even know? Last I checked humans were humans, whether or not the person up top has scales. Worlds aren't two-dimensional black and white concepts. Dragons probably have more to worry about than who their human great-great-great-great granddaughter is dating.
3. When you put it that way, it doesn't sound so bad. The showing them their blood when they get within a mile sounded just like some overzealous paladins I've dealt with.

[Zaer Darkwail]

Hmmm, Ryvaken, I wonder what your PC would feel about with a dragongraced (a plain dragonblood human) who follows path of Dragon Descendant? Also I was wondering to pick draconic template but consider the PrC is mostly chromatic themed. I wonder is it even possible that a golden draconic human could have chromatic ancestors? Results from 'rapes' or perhaps scandalous relationships in distant draconic past.

Or plain half-dragons and draconic human ancestory having rapes and such and result in crossbreeding. I moment thinked to play draconic human with blue scales but then it would create conflict between our chars (and proably any romantic interest to zero vs metalic dragonblood women, even if I am redeemed sort).

[Delta Echo]

Anyway, before I forget, I have thematic opposition to drow. The world as devised has no Underdark and the closest analody are the caves held by the Sapphire Dragons, who do not abide the vast majority of Underdark dwellers. This was an intentional choice.

They could be Eberron-style drow.  ;)

[NobleWolf]

They could be Eberron-style drow.  ;)

Hey, if you want to play a dark elf, go for it I say. With or against the stereotype. I mean, it's just a fantasy world, right?
I'll admit, I don't know much about this fantasy world though.

Idej, Any chance more of this setting will go public? Maybe a run down on recent events and a short regional guide or something? It may inspire some character creation.

[Ryvaken]

I don't know how much material he will use, but after Idej mentioned this concept I more-or-less invented about half the world subconciously and was rewarded for sharing my efforts (this is how I was able to afford an ocean faring ship). I won't detail that too much since I don't know what he's keeping or modifying, although I do hope the Bronze Reef remains intact. It was fun to develop that. I have a thing for Age of Sail civilizations.

On FR, yes it was harsh. I wanted to convey the depths of my despising of the campaign setting. But more than that, the bleed-through into other settings of FR concepts.

On dragons and humans, this is a political system where draconic ancestry translates into aristocracy. Had I the opportunity to delve into the repercussions of this I would, starting with a redesign of classes involving dragons to better reflect urban, cultured, or civilized characters as appropriate, rather than tribal, outcast, or minority groups as the classes currently represent. Arcane magic should aspire to the sorcerous rather than wizardly ideal, and PrCs such as the Dragon Disciple which apply templates or draconic heritage should be viewed as exaltations of draconic blood by some and usurpations of power by others. I would then continue with the social mores that led me to invent a class of item that enhances claw natural weapons as both a statement in war and peace. The various exchanges within dragonkind and the international relationships would be explored in great detail. This and more I would do gladly, as such a project of designing society appeals to me, but I have not been given leave to do so and it is the DM's purview. So instead, all I do is extrapolate from what I know. The True Dragons are universally described as territorial with varying degrees of ferocity; communication between them largely consisting of meetings between dragons with neighboring territories. Their varying environmental niches make the breeds largely seperate, with most overlapping environs being disinclined to cohabitation, such as the Blue and Brass dragons both seeking deserts. Thus it is improbable by environment to have amiable crossbreeding. The political act of alliance by marriage would not naturally arise from this mold.

The virtues of Bronze are very aligned with Paladin. Protection, duty, fighting the just war, these are all things that the culture embraces. This is modified by age of sail captaincy. Tylya is Master Under God and all that of her ship. Her crew trust her with their lives because she protects them, keeps them safe, fed, and well off. This does lead to a natural hyperawareness, particularly with individuals whose personal power rivals her own. My choice of stating her ship was carefully chosen in that she does not seek out to destroy all the evil in the world, but should it present itself on her ship, it must and will be struck down.

On drow specifically, there was some musing on the drow race being largely enslaved by chromatic masters as menial servants and foodstuffs. I don't think it got anywhere as that was basically a somewhat heavyhanded version of all the "we hate drow" that was being thrown around during worldbuilding and didn't add anything other than making it very clear that we hate drow, and would lead the good drow types to create characters out to rescue their misunderstood and enslaved brethren...which is exactly the kind of thing that makes us hate drow in the first place. I wonder if I missed an opportunity to mention hating drow in this paragraph.

[NobleWolf]

That info really helps. I can better grasp such a world now.
I still see a lot of racial mingling, even if its taboo and forbidden. That sorta stuff is commonplace, especially in a fantasy setting. The fact that the half-dragon template can be put on nearly any creature, including animals, is proof enough that dragonkind doesn't mind a little "mingling" now and then.
Drow being slaves to evil dragons sounds plausible to me. If anything their leaders would work for such an overlord. They wouldn't even need to be slaves, really. As long as the higher born Drow revere their tyrannical overlord, the others better just follow suit if they know what's good for them.
And yeah, you got the "I hate drow" and "I hate FR" points across.
What is your take on the "Spawn of Tiamat" found in MM IV? Do these creatures exist in this setting and if so, what sorta roles do they play?

[Idej]

I don't know how much material he will use, but after Idej mentioned this concept I more-or-less invented about half the world subconciously and was rewarded for sharing my efforts (this is how I was able to afford an ocean faring ship). I won't detail that too much since I don't know what he's keeping or modifying, although I do hope the Bronze Reef remains intact. It was fun to develop that. I have a thing for Age of Sail civilizations.

On FR, yes it was harsh. I wanted to convey the depths of my despising of the campaign setting. But more than that, the bleed-through into other settings of FR concepts.

On dragons and humans, this is a political system where draconic ancestry translates into aristocracy. Had I the opportunity to delve into the repercussions of this I would, starting with a redesign of classes involving dragons to better reflect urban, cultured, or civilized characters as appropriate, rather than tribal, outcast, or minority groups as the classes currently represent. Arcane magic should aspire to the sorcerous rather than wizardly ideal, and PrCs such as the Dragon Disciple which apply templates or draconic heritage should be viewed as exaltations of draconic blood by some and usurpations of power by others. I would then continue with the social mores that led me to invent a class of item that enhances claw natural weapons as both a statement in war and peace. The various exchanges within dragonkind and the international relationships would be explored in great detail. This and more I would do gladly, as such a project of designing society appeals to me, but I have not been given leave to do so and it is the DM's purview. So instead, all I do is extrapolate from what I know. The True Dragons are universally described as territorial with varying degrees of ferocity; communication between them largely consisting of meetings between dragons with neighboring territories. Their varying environmental niches make the breeds largely seperate, with most overlapping environs being disinclined to cohabitation, such as the Blue and Brass dragons both seeking deserts. Thus it is improbable by environment to have amiable crossbreeding. The political act of alliance by marriage would not naturally arise from this mold.

The virtues of Bronze are very aligned with Paladin. Protection, duty, fighting the just war, these are all things that the culture embraces. This is modified by age of sail captaincy. Tylya is Master Under God and all that of her ship. Her crew trust her with their lives because she protects them, keeps them safe, fed, and well off. This does lead to a natural hyperawareness, particularly with individuals whose personal power rivals her own. My choice of stating her ship was carefully chosen in that she does not seek out to destroy all the evil in the world, but should it present itself on her ship, it must and will be struck down.

On drow specifically, there was some musing on the drow race being largely enslaved by chromatic masters as menial servants and foodstuffs. I don't think it got anywhere as that was basically a somewhat heavyhanded version of all the "we hate drow" that was being thrown around during worldbuilding and didn't add anything other than making it very clear that we hate drow, and would lead the good drow types to create characters out to rescue their misunderstood and enslaved brethren...which is exactly the kind of thing that makes us hate drow in the first place. I wonder if I missed an opportunity to mention hating drow in this paragraph.

Yes it is true Ryvaken did quite a bit.  I haven't said too much besides what I have said mainly due to the fact that for one, I did not want to make an error in what Ryvaken has said and cause problems that way.

Two is the fact that I got a little busy with a few after holiday events and so things were a bit hectic.

Three, I knew Ryv was going away for the holidays and I did wish to infringe upon his work and to use something and then make a mistranslation without him being there to correct that flaw or to not be there for immediate defense.  I was trying to use courtesy on that one.

Now that, it appears people are thirsty for information I shall get that info. out to all of you to better help everyone.

[Ryvaken]

I should be home in 22-23 hours from now. Assuming the Christmas unpleasentness hasn't made the airports so jumpy that I have insufficient sources of ID, in which case I will get a train ticket instead and be home Thursday at the earliest. But I find that unlikely in the extreme.

Idej, I am touched. Seriously. I wish I had remembered to grab my copy of Dragon Magic for reference, but I'll jot together what notes I can. The past few days have been idle and my mind is refreshed and eager to engage in such a thought puzzle. Expect PMs soonish.

On the Spawn of Tiamat, and others of their ilk, that would be Idej's call. If present, they would probably represent either a recent upset to the current political and military situation, or they would be cast as sacred beasts and lords in the Chromatic lands.
My view of the world as I wrote the parts I did was one where the Good vs Evil fighting was something of a cold war, with the Bronze, Topaz, and Green Fleets engaging more in trade than warfare and other contact infrequent at best, save for what we would term terrorist actions on both sides. This semistable atmosphere is ripe for the DM to insert any conflict, be it draconic, humanoid, interplaner, or something more exotic.

[Idej]

Brief Description of,

Miotalus-Continent of the Metallic Dragons

Miotalus sits in the SouthWest of the World, a subtropical land noted for long growing seasons and mild winters, although the summers can be punishing. The five nations are the Brass Sands, Bronze Reef, Copper Hills, Silver Mountains, and Gold Seas.

The Brass Sands take up much of the southern coast, where the heat is most punishing. The desert is largely uninhabited by mammals except for in the westernmost savanna areas of the Brass Sands. The coastline itself is dotted with settlements, but most of these are at rivermouths, as purifying seawater is a tenuous form of sustenance. The region's capital is one of the few inland cities, situated on a river flowing all the way from the distant Silver Mountains. The city is still small by the standards of the other regions, but represents a vital trade center for the many caravans that keep the region connected. The people of Brass are tough, wary of outsiders, protective of water. At the same time, when water stores are high or outsiders come with gifts, they are among the friendliest and most talkative people in the world. The Halfling people are strong in this region, while Elves are scarce.

The Bronze Reef lies off the continent to the NorthEast, although the political region includes much of the shoreline. For a few miles out to sea, the ocean floor is dotted with spikes and tiny islands. Long ago, this proved to be a hazard for larger ships, but the region has long been tamed. Half of the people of Bronze live on the sea in villages that float on the water or are anchored to islands. The larger islands host port cities which receive trade from their Gem and Chromatic brethren...although few admit to dealing with the Chromatics directly. The regional capital is a massive structure encompassing several square miles of sea and dozens of anchoring islands. Gondolas are everywhere in the Reef, and children learn to steer and sail as soon as they can walk. Swimming is rarely practiced, however, as any sailor knows better than to trust the sea's embrace. The people are regimented and loyal, following the Captain's orders as proper sailors. The region is home to several aquatic species. Dwarves are practically unheard of.

The Copper Hills spread to the west coast, buffering the Gold Seas and Brass Sands. Prevailing winds from the northwest spreading east to the Bronze Sea; the hills and mountains trap moisture north of the desert. The hills range from rolling to rocky and are heavily forested in places. The area has only a few settlements as the area is kept rather uncivilized to provide large hunting grounds for the dragons. The few people who liver there are simple folk for the most part, although many of the finest craftsmen live in the region and every bard worth hearing has been taught at the College of the Hill. The Gnomes find their homes here, but in many ways it is the least civilized region of all, and few travel alone at night.

The Gold Sea is the wide plain to the west, where the hills give way to fertile land. The Gold Sea is home to farms and forests and lakes and the largest cities in the world. As their draconic rulers, the people value wisdom and history, and each village develops a strong sense of who they are very quickly. The regional capital is Dragonmeet, where all the continental lords visit from time to time in congress. It is even said that when great peril faces the world, all dragonkind is represented at Dragonmeet, but such has not happened for an age. The Elves are native to the region's forests.

The Silver Mountains form the center of the continent, surrounding an ancient volcano long sealed by natural and magical forces. The settlements range from Dwarven mines to human castles, but all survive by unearthing the treasures of the mountain cores. The regional capital is a fortress-mine halfway down the ssouthernmost slope, where the river that feeds the Brass capital forms from a series of waterfalls. The region is the most progressive, with edicts handed down from the Silver Dragons almost monthly, finding ways to improve the quality of life for their subjects. Personal freedom is all but unknown, however, and the caste system is at its strongest in the Dwarven cities.

[Idej]

Brief Description of,

The Rubina Archipelago-Home of the Gem Dragons

The Rubina Archipelago covers far more territory than the other continents yet has the least landmass. Stretching over much of the world from north to south, the people of the Archipelago have little unified identity and live mostly isolated lives. The Bronze Fleet and many dragons have found it possible to sail through Gem waters and fly over Rubina skies to bring battle to the Chromatics and never see any Gem settlements. Rubina is the odd man out in the magic World. Sorcerers are extremely few and Wizardry is considered a low profession. Psions and Wilders dominate the mystic positions in noble society.

The Crystal Ridge is in the far north, although not as far as the Great White to the east. The towering mountains are no less frigid, however, and during the long winter all those vulnerable to cold seek shelter beneath the mountain stones. The people of Crystal are open and friendly as a general rule, and any traveler in need can expect some form of hospitality. The regional capital sits at the highest peak above the clouds, a castle made of solid ice. The city is unnaturally warm and comfortable even in the depths of winter, and the residents have a somewhat haughty, superior disposition.

The southern end of Rubina holds the Emerald Ridge, a mirror of the northern Crystal mountains. Rather than iced peaks, the Emerald Ridge features extinct volcanoes in great numbers. The tunnels leading to the deep earth branch off into magma-filled caverns, certain death for the unwary. The residents are loathe to answer questions but quick to ask them, and the regional capital is built into the largest volcano.

Rubina has no other large landmasses, only strings of islands connecting the north and south.
The largest islands are claimed by the Amethyst dragons and hold cave structures, many of which reach the subterranean tunnels. These islands are the farmlands of Rubina, and have no cultural identity to speak of. The regional capital is Rubis Vermeil, which lies almost at the geographic center of Gem. All Gem Dragons visit semi-regularly.

The smallest islands are built into small trading ports for the Topaz people. Like the Bronze Reef, the people of Topaz live at sea. But while the Bronze live stable lives in floating villages and professionally designed ships all in a fleet hierarchy, Topaz build ships as they wish, some big some small, some innovative some barely seaworthy. Discipline is lax, coordination is nonexistant. Most ships drift around Gem, fishing for food and trading for lumber and supplies, but a sizable number make the journey to the Chromatic continent in trade. Few sail to the Metallic lands, as the Bronze Fleet keeps regular trade with Gem by itself.

The Sapphire dragons are almost never seen outside of Rubis Vermeil. Their homes are deep in the earth, in the tunnels that link Emerald and Crystal with eachother beneath the waves. The Sapphire Depths are populated by dwarves and gnomes, without any sign of elf or abomination or elder evil. The tunnels are held together by powerful, ancient psionic enchantments that protect them from the sea and magma. The Sapphire dragons and their serfs constantly enlarge the tunnels, seeking ever rarer treasures. Cold iron is a leading export.

[Zaer Darkwail]

Ok, after some pondering I decided go with this concept; LN male human Ninja 2/Monk 3/Discipline of the Eye 2/Dragon Descendant 1. Dragontouched feat so he has dragon blood in him but he looks mostly human.

Anycase idea is that my char either works for chromatic dragons, or that he is from secret ninja village which has both chromatic and metallic dragon patrons who manipulate scenery of the world to keep both contigents 'in balance' power wise (if some major guy rises in power in chromatics; he is nuked, if some major dude rises in metallic, try talk sense and if not working then nuke him). Naturally my char travels around the world under a disguise and perhaps mysterious martial artist fellow.

So far I have made concept so that he gets Decisive Strike from the monk (PHB II variant) but also gets flurry of blows from Discipline of the Eye (Races of the Dragon PrC). But if my background is not okay I would like suggestions where my char would fit in as 'martial art skilled ninja'.

[Idej]

Ok, after some pondering I decided go with this concept; LN male human Ninja 2/Monk 3/Discipline of the Eye 2/Dragon Descendant 1. Dragontouched feat so he has dragon blood in him but he looks mostly human.

Anycase idea is that my char either works for chromatic dragons, or that he is from secret ninja village which has both chromatic and metallic dragon patrons who manipulate scenery of the world to keep both contigents 'in balance' power wise (if some major guy rises in power in chromatics; he is nuked, if some major dude rises in metallic, try talk sense and if not working then nuke him). Naturally my char travels around the world under a disguise and perhaps mysterious martial artist fellow.

So far I have made concept so that he gets Decisive Strike from the monk (PHB II variant) but also gets flurry of blows from Discipline of the Eye (Races of the Dragon PrC). But if my background is not okay I would like suggestions where my char would fit in as 'martial art skilled ninja'.

It doesn't sound too bad to me, and it will most likely work out with the way things are socially in the world.  :)

[Idej]

Brief Explanation of,

Kromatisk-Continent of the Chromatic Dragons

Set to the northeast, Kromatisk is massive, easily the largest landmass in the known world and half again the size of the Metallic lands. However, it is also one of the harshest and most unforgiving lands.

Despite being temperate by latitude, ocean currents pull tropical waters northward a streach, and seasonal storms follow to bring warm winds and rain to the southern extremes of the continent. Far too much, however, for the Black Marsh is little more than swamps, moors, and fetid jungle. Tribes survive in the few patches of approximately dry land, where the climate allows lush vegitation, but much of the terrain  reeks of death and decay. The dead walk in the Marsh, and the Black Dragons seem to rarely care if their subjects breathe or not, so long as they serve. The marsh is home to few cities, only tribes who are quick to kill eachother when they happen to meet.
Ships bearing Black colors are almost all prizes taken by means fair and foul. Their sails tattered and masts neglected, the ships instead turn to undead rowers to tirelessly push the ships through the waters. No port welcomes Black ships without posting guards first, but the treasures of a Black Pirate are many and varied.

Away from monsoon and hurricane are the Jade Forests, west of the marsh and north. Away from the currents but taking rain from the winds, the forests are the most fertile region of the continent and home to one of the two true civilizations on the continent. Elves, men, and the rare Drow cultivate the meadows and harvest orchards, providing an abundance of food that is traded to the infertile desert region. The Green Fleet is the third largest in the world, after Bronze and Topaz, and the port-city of Rasen is the nation's capital. Green, Black, Topaz, and even Bronze and Gold ships can be found trading at the piers, the latter only rarely.

The Crimson Mountains strike up from the western coastline north of the forests and streach into the frozen wastes. Smoking volcanoes and deep valleys define the Red Dragons' land. The land, hyper-fertile with ash, is farmed with abandon by the largest civilization crushed beneath Tiamat's spawn. The Reds do not rule, they own their subjects. Each person is part of a dragon's hoard from birth, and whole cities have been devoured by dragons seeking a peaceful passing to the next life (see Draconomicon if you don't get the reference). Escape, often dreamed of, is rare. However, the Reds do protect their slaves, as they would any treasure in their posession, so they are perhaps the safest of all creatures in this forsaken land. The heart of the Crimson Mountains holds Viskayt, the Chromatic capital. The Reds decree that their lesser brethren report to them every century.  There are have been sightings of dragons with glossy black hides reside in the Crimson Mountains, but no one is talking not even the Red Dragons.

The Azure Desert is unremarkable. A barren wasteland, as much rock as sand, covers the eastern portion of the continent. A few scrawny rivers and wind-swept ash allow live to spring up here and there, and a few larger rivers flood to give rise to small cities. However, most of the desert is given to creatures who have no need of water or plantlife. The Blue Dragons spread out, with a nominal capital on the largest river, but by and large each dragon's territory is defined by what can live there.

The frozen lands of Hvítur is why the continent is so massive. A quarter of the continent by area, the north is where land gives way to tundra, then water and land alike give way to ice. No one knows what secrets are hidden in the frozen land. The White Dragons, little more than hyperintelligent animals, rule the fewest subjects of all dragonkind, attend the fewest meetings, and have the least interest in anything beyond their own territories. It is said that the only reason they have not been wiped out is that no one can find a reason to expend the effort, but even these are Tiamat's creations and may well have a part to play in the deity's endless war with her twin...

[Idej]

These three areas is what is known of this world, and nothing else has been discovered as of yet.  Whether it be how the wind currents move or other phenomenoms is to be determined by non-dragon races.  It is speculated that the north pole lies in the crystal lands as any form compasses and other navigation devices that relies upon similar technology has pointed towards those lands.

Any travel away from these lands has always led to the ships to never return back from their voyages and if the ships do return there is no one on board.

[Idej]

General Traits Throughout the World

Classes and Prestige Classes that emphasize draconic traits are considered to be classes of high status and thus what most of the nobility in the world are.

Due to the more developed statuses of civilizations barbarians, warriors, and other less refined classes are frowned upon.

Slayers of dragons, are watched very closely in all lands and are only allowed to travel the lands if they have proper permits, authorizations, or other forms of methods that will allow your presence to go smoothly in the lands of Gem, Metallic, and Chromatic dragons.  Though of course since each dragon needs to be able to kill potential threats some dragons keep an entourage of dragonslayers at their command if such a need arises.

Any class that is devoted to or empowered by the slaying of dragons is typically considered unclean, however the metallic/chromatic conflict makes dragon slayers potential aides of the state. Unsanctioned slayers are generally considered with the same fear and loathing as sociopathic murderers.

A class that offers a dragon-descended, halfdragon, or similar template represents a signifigant jump in caste from gentlemenry or even peasentry into the nobility. The LG and LN types will see it in similar terms to buying a knighthood -- acceptable but they're not really one of us. The LE types will either kill the usurper or kiss his ass depending on ability. The Chaotic types of all kind are less likely to care.
The Dragonborn race is an exception in Metallic lands. While it is the elevation of a commoner into the nobility, none dare tell Bahamut who is worthy and who is not.

The Knowledge(Nobility and Royalty) skill might want to take knowledge of Dragons from Knowledge(Arcana), or share it so either skill functions equally in this regard.
Likewise, Knowledge(N&R) and Diplomacy should be added to the skilllists of those classes ennobled above, in exchange for skills like Bluff or Survival where appropriate, dennoting those classes' ascension from idiosyncratic discipline to high society vocation.

The Caste system should be strong in Lawful lands and weak in Chaotic. Good lords should be generous, Neutral should be fair, Evil should be cruel. These are of course generalities.

The dragons at the top of the social ladder are immobile and unimpeachable, although few follow the rule of any dragon who is not an adult. Chromatic wyrmlings and juveniles may choose to play at ruling with small villages or tribes of no more than a dozen, and Metallics may have devoted guards, teachers, and other servants, but true leadership waits for maturity.
The top of the humanoid social tiers are the dragonblooded. The more draconic the visage, the more regal the character. The dragontouched feat is the lowest subtier within the caste. Claws, Breath weapons, scales, tails, and other traits add to the bearing. Wings are particularly favored for their rarity, even among the elite. Classes which grant these traits, like Dragon Shaman, are considered the provence of this caste alone. These individuals weild power wether they want to or not, and often own land as feudal lords, captain great ships, or serve as military officers.
The second tier is the nondragon nobility. Family lines so old the dragon blood is all but extinct. It is a small tier, often folded into the one above. Sorcerers and bards are common in these lines, but for the most part they subsist on old money. Here also are the offshoots of vibrant dragonblood lines that got the human side of the gene pool, or dragonblooded from illigitimate pregnancies.
The third tier is the gentlemenry. Nonnoble, but rich and affluent. Most military officers also fall into this tier, as do successful adventurers and clergy. Mages and psionics can often find their way here around the 3rd spell level.
The fourth tier is the tradesmen. The middle class, skilled laborers, wealthy merchants, physicians, adventurers and others with a PC class. This is the highest caste that works for a living, with no breeding to support them. The lucky can buy their way into the gentlemenry, often by way of military commission.
The fifth tier is the peasantry. Sometimes freemen, sometimes serfs, sometimes slaves. These souls have their lot in life, and have little chance of advancement.

[Zaer Darkwail]

It doesn't sound too bad to me, and it will most likely work out with the way things are socially in the world.  :)

Ok, start type of charsheet in more detail then. Have notes of stats, hit dice and skills etc. Just need buy magic items and use online charseet.

[Tenjou2000]

Percephius Bahar

Race: Tiefling (MM1)

Age: 21

Classes: Rogue/Swashbuckler/Urban Ranger/Invisible Blade

http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=176939

Description: Stands 5,11 tall with a slender muscular build and walks with an almost cocky swagger. Flawless ashen white skin, feathery shoulder length fiery red hair, and crimson raptor like eyes that seem to glow faintly in dim light. Favors wearing red silk and black leathered garments that are trimmed in gold thread. 

Background:
From the day of his birth, his parents were always a bit uneasy about their youngest son’s otherworldly appearance.  Pale skin, unnaturally red hair, and uncanny eyes. Though it had been countless decades since the Bahar House had broken all it ties with demon race, in it’s attempts to break the yoke of their dark past and start anew. Yet judging from the boy’s odd looks, it seemed that demonic blood  still curse them with it’s looming presence.

Demon blooded or not, they didn’t have the heart to abandoned their son; so they decided they do their best to raise him as a proper nobleman. From a very young age  Percephius was tutored by several scholars and experts, though the more he learned the more he desired to venture outside his  sheltered existence.  His family home resided in the uptown district of a booming port town. Every evening he would lounge in the sill of his bay window and watched as the ships would dock for the night.  How he longed to leave this pampered prison, and sail off to an adventure. His father noted his son’s fondness for the sea and felt his child needed more structure to his life. With that in mind he arrange for Percephius to join the local navy at the age of 13. While there wasn’t much his parents could do about there son’s pale complexion or odd eyes, they could at least dye his hair blonde.

Percephius wasn’t exactly keen on dying his hair, but if it meant he got to leave home and sail on a boat. It was a small price to pay. While at the academy he excelled in his studies and sword play, yet his disregard for rules and spirited nature got him into trouble with his superiors more often then not. After several years of failed attempts to make Percephius conform to their standards, the academy sent him back home. When he returned home his angry father gave him the ultimatum: either return to academy and comply to their ways or  gather his things and go.  It wasn’t an easy choice, but he decided to pack his things and leave home to make a name for himself.  The first few months  away from home were the hardest, and with his last of his money run out, he finally decide to join a band of  roaming mercenaries to earn his keep.

By this time the blonde dye had faded, allowing his natural fiery red hair color return. Though this odd look turned a few heads, many  just assumed he had dyed his hair match his already strange appearance. He usually prefers to work alone, he is willing to work with others if company is pleasant and pay is decent. When he’s not hunting a bounty he likes to spend his leisure time in taverns living it up: gambling, drinking, and the flirting with women.

[Idej]

I see many of you are either almost done or done creating characters.  :)

After New Years I shall have an OOC posted and possibly an IC too.

Once that is done I'll still be accepting more players, but the game shall be going. :)

[NobleWolf]

Perhaps someone will drop by wanting to play a divine caster. We seem to have a lack of them.

[Kate]

Name: Oeah
Race: Demonic
Class: Perverted Cleric (also need help with this one - favored soul or something?)
Gender: Futa

and she may have a friend ... called Lyah

[Zaer Darkwail]

Well, this is tough nut to crack. Most straighforward solution would be human half-fiend cleric of XXX demonic deity (Grazz'zt would be best choice; as he so far only subtle demon and he runs cult which is led by women, and all their women use seduction and running a sex cult would not big stretch for their clerics).

But +4 LA hits very hard as spellcaster and makes you quite weak compared other chars (despite generous benefits of half-fiend template). But more tweaking side you could play as tiefling cleric, tiefling is +1 LA race. But it gets penalty to charisma (but charisma pen is more about people being 'nervous' around you than related to looks). As tiefling you could pick in 1st level Outsider Wings (and so get wings) and being futa can be your tiefling 'fiendish' trait besides wings.

Then you have 7 levels as cleric (or favored soul, but favored soul uses charisma as primary casting stat besides wisdom so it may be not good choice for tiefling but not impossible. Wisdom determines save DC of your spells but charisma determines what level spells you learn so you could start out with 14 charisma after racial penalty and use 4th level stat increase it to 15 and 8th level at 16 and keep increasing charisma through your career). Favored Soul is good option if you want go more combative and 'spamming' divine caster (not to mention better wings at high level) but cleric gets turn/rebuke undead and there are many feats powered by that feature.

There is also of course PrC related to Grazz'zt but so far as I recall it was arcane spellcaster class which specialized in seducing other spellcaster, steal their secres and then backstab with spells (think it as arcane based sneak attack).

[Ryvaken]

Y'know I said earlier that I was going to avoid the lawful stupid trap of having no tolerance for evil at all, but I'm pretty sure serial mindrapists, warmongers, and perverted demons are all on the acceptable target list. I know at this point we're going to have two groups so the chances of any of you lot actually playing in the same game as me is nil, but I am compelled to ask where this trend of evil originated from.

[Kate]

a more interesting question ...

where did the view that perversion themes for a group rp in a sex role playing site for sexual fantasies should be deemed weird come from ?

remember good is cultural and in western culture and many others also sex has many conditions - those valuing some of them being relaxed is deemed of values that are to some "demonic" or "evil", representing that i think is the trust of this - not how about we start burning worlds stuff

[Ryvaken]

I'm not entirely sure what half of that was supposed to mean, but it doesn't seem more than tangentially related to my original point. If you're trying to make a point that sex is not evil, why create a character who is, by definition, a personification of evil?

[Zaer Darkwail]

So, your fiendish cleric of sex cult treats 'evil' as 'matter of perspective'. Classic XD.

Anycase my char is not evil but more 'Harper neutral'.

[Ryvaken]

I call bullshit. Your character backstory calls for you to be actively prolonging a rather nasty war by taking out anyone who could possibly end it before they have a chance to do so. Promoting death, destruction, and warfare is about as evil as the guys fighting for the five-headed hellbitch.

[Zaer Darkwail]

I am LN follower of Io, so sue me :P. I just follow his doghma which is in practice 'preserve dragonkin' and outright war between metallics and chromatics (and gems likely third faction crushed between) after last war which wiped nearly both sides is not good way do so. So I essence try whatever means to prevent war ever happening again, if it takes to kill a over zealous (lawful stupid) gold dragon or tyrannical ambittious blue dragon it makes no difference.

[Ryvaken]

...okay, it's one thing to not think of it in those terms, but to defend it? You're an arms dealer backing opposing terrorist groups so they can shoot at eachother more.

[NobleWolf]

Y'know I said earlier that I was going to avoid the lawful stupid trap of having no tolerance for evil at all, but I'm pretty sure serial mindrapists, warmongers, and perverted demons are all on the acceptable target list. I know at this point we're going to have two groups so the chances of any of you lot actually playing in the same game as me is nil, but I am compelled to ask where this trend of evil originated from.

Actually, if everyone is playing a non-lawful and/or non-good character, that makes YOUR character the odd one out. That is, the one clashing with the group. Which is a very odd development, I must admit.
We have enough players that two parties is a viable, if not necessary, course of action though. I'd gladly party with the "unwanted" player characters, if you don't want to.
And what's with the "serial mindrapists" crack? Last I checked Thrallherds could be of any alignment.

[Zaer Darkwail]

What? As follower of Io I focus in a preventing war or any massive draconic conflict ever occuring in first place so where comes from comparing my actions as selling weapons to terrorists :P. Finding a permament peace would be fullfillment to the goals of Io but 'dragon wars' as conflict is called universally (metallic vs chromatic) is eternal as both chief deities in either end dislike each other very much. So best case is constant 'fire truce' as it is now in the game world so far as I know. Only conflicts being tiny skirmishes here and there so my aims would go to prevent loss of any true dragon (draconic blooded people are not considered much in that philosophy but half-dragons or other draconic beings are considered under Io's protection).

Of course some cases I would need deal someway with a true dragon but if one true dragon endangers peace what is now (and if it goes out then we more than half of present true dragon population and thousands of half-dragons and draconic beings).

Of course all my chars beliefs and such are pure OOC info and no one knows anything about it. Consider all over five hundred years of actions from his ninja/monastery it would send monastery into ruin and also could spark the war go again.

[Ryvaken]

So can a necromancer wizard. I have a far easier time envisioning good in one who animates the corporeal remains of the dead than I do in anyone who controls the mind of another. You have chosen the path of the Illithid, without even racial inclination to excuse the abomination. I would not party with one such as that under any circumstance, in any genre, of any system. I say without irony or exaggeration that "thrallherd" is the most depraved class to which I have recollection, and I say this after searching the evil splatbooks trying to find another to take that title from it.



Zaer, there's always the possibility that one side could win.

[NobleWolf]

So can a necromancer wizard. I have a far easier time envisioning good in one who animates the corporeal remains of the dead than I do in anyone who controls the mind of another. You have chosen the path of the Illithid, without even racial inclination to excuse the abomination. I would not party with one such as that under any circumstance, in any genre, of any system. I say without irony or exaggeration that "thrallherd" is the most depraved class to which I have recollection, and I say this after searching the evil splatbooks trying to find another to take that title from it.



Zaer, there's always the possibility that one side could win.

Don't bother Zaer, Ryvaken has everything all figured out, or at least he firmly believes he does. I'm not about to be dragged into a childish morality debate with him, I suggest you stay out of one as well.

[Zaer Darkwail]

I would had said to Io it is like watching two his children fight to death. So to him there is no winner in that situation, in either side winning is horrible loss to him. So prevent the death conflict (or death itself) would be more winning than supporting either side to win the war. Of course it needs worked out in both sides so that neither side desires to win anymore (and so end whole conflict without destroying either one). As in end lenghtening the conflict also adds tremendous pile of corpses (than just quick conflict in one draconic generation instead hundred) but my order's teachings even minimizing the amount per conflict serves Io.

Edit; Well, I like philosophical moral debates myself. Just that most people do not like them or they grow boring or stubborn during the discussion. To me good discussion is one which opens people's mind open for posibillities or new ideas.

[NobleWolf]

I would had said to Io it is like watching two his children fight to death. So to him there is no winner in that situation, in either side winning is horrible loss to him. So prevent the death conflict (or death itself) would be more winning than supporting either side to win the war. Of course it needs worked out in both sides so that neither side desires to win anymore (and so end whole conflict without destroying either one). As in end lenghtening the conflict also adds tremendous pile of corpses (than just quick conflict in one draconic generation instead hundred) but my order's teachings even minimizing the amount per conflict serves Io.

Edit; Well, I like philosophical moral debates myself. Just that most people do not like them or they grow boring or stubborn during the discussion. To me good discussion is one which opens people's mind open for posibillities or new ideas.

That may be true, but this really isn't the place. Perhaps you should take it to a different thread or just PM each other?

[Zaer Darkwail]

Ah, true. Could take it into PM's but then again I am discussing about it first place because if Ryvaken is in same group as I and I do plan sooner or later others finding out about his secret 'career' so would like discuss how their PC's react to it and hope it does not result into inner party conflict/drama. Altough some details would remain secret but concept itself would be open in table.

[Ryvaken]

You're the one who asked, Wolf.

[Idej]

Well, looks like we might need that OOC thread up now.  :)

Here it is folks.

Hands of Their Winged Overlords-OOC

[NobleWolf]

You're the one who asked, Wolf.

Perhaps, but you're pressing it.

Ok fine, here is how I see it. Your view on the matter is without foundation. You don't know how I plan to play such a character, nor do you bother to ask. You've forgotten to take into consideration that what a person could do is not what they will do.
A wizard could throw fireballs into the crowded street. That does not make all wizards nor spells evil. A man could stab an innocent newborn child with his short sword, but not every man who picks up a sword is evil. But because I choose to use a tactic that doesn't harm the target, I am some "twisted" person. Did it not occur to you that charming or even dominating a perceived enemy is just as good, if not more so, than simply striking him dead?
As for thralls and believers, the whole affair seems to be rather involuntary, or at least it can be. The thralls and believers come because they're psychically linked with the Thrallherd. It isn't as if my character has control over who answers the subconscious call. How she treats them, however, is completely up to her. While many people may abuse this special connection, others will treat their thralls with kindness and respect. I charge while Thrallherds could use this as a parasitic relationship, they could just as easily turn it into a symbiotic one.
Honestly, to compare my character to a brain-eating illithid, zombie-crafting necromancer, or satanic cult worshiper is quite a stretch and a little insulting. Your talking about beings that sacrifice people, even souls, to their depraved gods for perks and thrills.

[Ryvaken]

Look up "thrall" in the dictionary.
–noun
1.    a person who is in bondage; slave.
2.    a person who is morally or mentally enslaved by some power, influence, or the like
3.    slavery; thralldom.
–verb (used with object)
4.    Archaic. to put or hold in thralldom; enslave.
–adjective
5.    Archaic. subjected to bondage; enslaved.
At the very least, you've cut out "good" alignments. A kind slave owner is still a slave owner. And as noted, you don't have a culture to fall back on to try and explain the behavior. Even then, grotes

But let's take it a step back and say that the relationship can be symbiotic, and even go so far as to charge that the thrallherd, a class that is completely built around various degrees of mentally violating other sentient creatures, is incapable of controlling who answers the call. It was still that character's choice to develop those abilities.

[NobleWolf]

Look up "thrall" in the dictionary.
–noun
1.    a person who is in bondage; slave.
2.    a person who is morally or mentally enslaved by some power, influence, or the like
3.    slavery; thralldom.
–verb (used with object)
4.    Archaic. to put or hold in thralldom; enslave.
–adjective
5.    Archaic. subjected to bondage; enslaved.
At the very least, you've cut out "good" alignments. A kind slave owner is still a slave owner. And as noted, you don't have a culture to fall back on to try and explain the behavior. Even then, grotes

But let's take it a step back and say that the relationship can be symbiotic, and even go so far as to charge that the thrallherd, a class that is completely built around various degrees of mentally violating other sentient creatures, is incapable of controlling who answers the call. It was still that character's choice to develop those abilities.

Not so fast.
You conveniently leave out a thrall can also mean; a person totally subject to some need, desire, appetite, etc..
It can also mean; a state of complete absorption or a state of servitude or submission.
Yes, I do know the definition of thrall. It can refer to willing servitude and even passionate servitude.
Definitions just as legitimate, and perhaps in this case more fitting for my character.
Besides, if the true intention of the class was really as vile and wicked as you say, why doesn't it have an evil or non-good alignment requirement? It seems the very creator of the class didn't see it the same way as you, so why should I?

[Ryvaken]

The flaw in your argument is where you placed the atrocity. It is in the act of violating the sovereign mind of another and enslaving him, not because he is a threat to himself or others, but because you can. How you treat your herd of slaves is far and away less telling than the fact that you have a herd of slaves.

Edit: Okay, my computer did something weird and posted an earlier draft without me realizing it. Let me play catchup here.

Okay, first off I reported every definition of thrall I landed on. Then I decided semantics was a rather pointless game to play, which is why it didn't make my final draft.
As to why the class wasn't more appropriately created, it comes from a psionic handbook. I've long since given up trying to puzzle out what those writers were smoking and is generally simpler to disallow the books in their entirety. However I find that expressing such opinions is generally counterproductive to making a proper argument, and mildly hypocritical as there is some material that is salvageable. Thrallherd is actually one of the least objectionable in this regard, needing only a nongood restriction. I do accept that not everyone shares my opinion that mental domination of this kind is one of the more depraved abominations of the human imagination, otherwise I would have had the class placed in Vile Darkness, although Lords of Madness is also appropriate with the Illithid aspirations.

[NobleWolf]

The flaw in your argument is where you placed the atrocity. It is in the act of violating the sovereign mind of another and enslaving him, not because he is a threat to himself or others, but because you can. How you treat your herd of slaves is far and away less telling than the fact that you have a herd of slaves.

Edit: Okay, my computer did something weird and posted an earlier draft without me realizing it. Let me play catchup here.

Okay, first off I reported every definition of thrall I landed on. Then I decided semantics was a rather pointless game to play, which is why it didn't make my final draft.
As to why the class wasn't more appropriately created, it comes from a psionic handbook. I've long since given up trying to puzzle out what those writers were smoking and is generally simpler to disallow the books in their entirety. However I find that expressing such opinions is generally counterproductive to making a proper argument, and mildly hypocritical as there is some material that is salvageable. Thrallherd is actually one of the least objectionable in this regard, needing only a nongood restriction. I do accept that not everyone shares my opinion that mental domination of this kind is one of the more depraved abominations of the human imagination, otherwise I would have had the class placed in Vile Darkness, although Lords of Madness is also appropriate with the Illithid aspirations.

I'll continue then, and perhaps show you a possibility of thrallherd that you may have overlooked.
Going with dictionary definitions for thralls we should also look at "believers" since a thrallherd also gets those in addition to a thrall. I believe that will give an entirely different perspective than using a reading for one select (i.e., "thrall") aspect of the class ability.
Note that it never mentions domination at all. It talks about a psionic resonation which can most definitely be construed as a non-domination thing.
Resonation usually implies that two things have "similar" frequencies (or something else) that mesh together to make something stronger.
In this case it is not a conscious choice for the thralls (and believers) but something deep within that resonates with the thrallherd and this resonation manifests itself as following.
Note that nothing says that the thrallherd "commands" his thralls - in fact it specifically says that this ability functions "akin to leadership" - with essentially the only difference being that it is not a "conscious" following.

The class goes beyond our mental understandings in this sense. The thralls are literally drawn not by commands per se, but a need. Take notice, if they walked through an anti-magic field, they would still be thralls. With the right interpretation, the believers come out of a sense of duty or destiny. Perhaps I am not so much as sending an order, but an offer.
Look at it in that light, and perhaps you can see what I mean.

[Ryvaken]

It specifically says they do not come out of admiration or desire to serve. It refers to suitable candidates as "mentally pliable." It voids penalties for being cruel or uncaring towards your herd. This is not Leadership with effective advertising.


I could see such a class as you describe being constructed as a variant of thrallherd, throwing in longer delays for new recruits to show up to account for the fact that you are not simply grabbing weak-minded able bodies to fill your ranks, returning some of the conditions to your effective leadership score, and balancing that with various bonuses of morale and coordination within your following. But that is not what Thrallherd represents.

[NobleWolf]

It specifically says they do not come out of admiration or desire to serve. It refers to suitable candidates as "mentally pliable." It voids penalties for being cruel or uncaring towards your herd. This is not Leadership with effective advertising.


I could see such a class as you describe being constructed as a variant of thrallherd, throwing in longer delays for new recruits to show up to account for the fact that you are not simply grabbing weak-minded able bodies to fill your ranks, returning some of the conditions to your effective leadership score, and balancing that with various bonuses of morale and coordination within your following. But that is not what Thrallherd represents.

It doesn't say that they can't develop those qualities. After all, they haven't met you yet. They simply follow a beacon to you. You probably wouldn't feel admiration or desire for someone from a simple message in a bottle. This is also a reasonable excuse as to why it doesn't follow standard leadership rules.
Mentally pliable is much too vague to make that assertion. It can also refer to the resonance the class speaks about.
It is not simply advertising as you put it, it's a powerful connection. One that apparently goes beyond spells and powers, as can be proven by the fact that the ability is extraordinary in nature.
I'm not implying thrallherds can't be evil. I'm giving credible observations that the class itself isn't evil. In fact, it's left intentionally vague so it's easier to mold it to your interpretation. My interpretation is just correct as yours.
There is no need for wasting any more time on a variant of the class, the class already encompasses many options. We wouldn't make a separate class for rangers that prefer ranged attacks and another for melee.

[Ryvaken]

...pliable really isn't that vague at all. If you find that argument credible, I do believe we are done here, and I look forward to keelhauling you should we meet.

[NobleWolf]

...pliable really isn't that vague at all. If you find that argument credible, I do believe we are done here, and I look forward to keelhauling you should we meet.

One last thing; You like definitions right?
pli·a·ble  (pl-bl)
adj.
1. Easily bent or shaped. See Synonyms at malleable.
2. Receptive to change; adaptable: pliable attitudes.
3. Easily influenced, persuaded, or swayed; tractable.

It was a reasonable debate, at the very least.

[Ryvaken]

...that does anything other than enforce my point that the thrallherd seeks out individuals of convenience to fill the ranks, as opposd to those that would choose to follow?

[NobleWolf]

...that does anything other than enforce my point that the thrallherd seeks out individuals of convenience to fill the ranks, as opposd to those that would choose to follow?

Now your just grasping. Mentally receptive to change and adaptable pretty much proves my point entirely. It implies willingness to comply! They come to the Thrallherd, not the other way around.
And just as I said about the class being intentionally vague on purpose, one could just as quickly assume it's meant as forcible control. Again, that's why I believe the class isn't inherently evil. If it were truly intended to be evil , it's flavor and rulings would have made it clear.

[Ryvaken]

...are you serious? "Receptive to change" means receptive to being changed. See point 3: easily influenced. As in manipulated, fooled, tricked, controlled, dominated. Even the first line, easily bent. The phrase "bend to his will" comes to mind instantly.

Something that is pliable can be many things, with one thing in common. There is someone shaping that thing into the shape that person desires. Trying to turn a line that says "the genuinely loyal people abandon you and people who are easily manipulated flock to your banner" is not a good thing. Trying to turn "pliable" into a compliment (outside of limited educational and behavioral growth contexts) is almost absurd enough to be funny. These are the exact same words I would use to describe cultists who shoot themselves in the head at the behest of a charismatic madman. The flavor is excessively clear.

[NobleWolf]

...are you serious? "Receptive to change" means receptive to being changed. See point 3: easily influenced. As in manipulated, fooled, tricked, controlled, dominated. Even the first line, easily bent. The phrase "bend to his will" comes to mind instantly.

Something that is pliable can be many things, with one thing in common. There is someone shaping that thing into the shape that person desires. Trying to turn a line that says "the genuinely loyal people abandon you and people who are easily manipulated flock to your banner" is not a good thing. Trying to turn "pliable" into a compliment (outside of limited educational and behavioral growth contexts) is almost absurd enough to be funny. These are the exact same words I would use to describe cultists who shoot themselves in the head at the behest of a charismatic madman. The flavor is excessively clear.

Your not even arguing now, your just being contradictory. As I keep pointing out, that is a viable interpretation, but mine is as well. That's the point I'm making. You haven't any shred of proof to firmly support your argument that Thrallherds are inherently evil. You can only prove, which everyone knows, that they can be.
Besides "the genuinely loyal people abandon you"? Think about what you just said! They don't seem so loyal to me!
That weak argument is the only joke here. If that line is really so absurd, why not take it out! Oh wait! Because then people would have both leadership AND the Thrallherd ability, and that certainly wouldn't be fair! Your also assuming they already have the leadership feat, which is a poor stance to take.
Don't confuse necessary game saving mechanics with how "evil" a class is.
Being adaptable and receptive is anything but a character flaw. Actually, it makes you a decent, logical person. Just because a group of people put their fate in your hands doesn't mean you are evil, nor does it mean they are simply mindless puppets. By your logic, if a religious fanatic happily follows the whim of his benevolent priest, the priest is evil. While certainly such a relationship can be perverted, such happenings go on without such incident all the time.
You can keep pressing the "mentally pliable" idea all you want, but it is indeed more vague than you are willing to admit. Again, you have no concrete proof whatsoever to support your heavy handed claim that Thrallherd is an evil class.

[Ryvaken]

Abandon, driven off, however you want to phrase it. The writers deliberately worded it in a way that did not imply that followers would be subsumed within the believers, but that they would leave. Given that followers are generally depicted as above-average but not extraordinary folk outside the typical comforts of hearth and home, it would stand that their wills would not be as easily sublimated as the farming folk and city trash that turn up as believers.
And no, I'm not assuming that they have the Leadership feat. You're the one arguing the tone of the writing, and I'm using what's written. Also, if we ignore balance game mechanics, we throw out all the noise you made on it being Extraordinary rather than Supernatural. Either way, my argument stands.

You say adaptable and receptive. I say receptive and vulnerable. And let's take a look a few paragraphs up. "Thrallherds manipulate the minds of others as if they were clay in the hands of a sculptor." As I said, a pliable object needs someone to ply it. When thinking of others' minds in terms such as this, with a few exceptions, is a sign of superiority, arrogance, and corruption. But wait, there's more.
"Some creatures are more suceptible than others to the thrallherd's unconcious, but continual, call to service." The unconcious line is about the only save against evil they have, but unless your backstory has it that she doesn't know that she's an enslaving hellbitch that doesn't really address the point at hand. Moving on.
"And so they come, eager to be led, happy to follow, and completely under the thrallherd's control." Really, if that isn't a setup for "power corrupts" I don't know what is.
"In this way, thrallherds keep a minor menagerie of enthralled servants that are anxious to do their will."

If you are seriously going to defend that the tone of this is ethically neutral, I'm just going to call you quaintly naive right here and point you down another couple paragraphs to where the only example of thrallherd behavior in the entire writeup involves sacrificing believers without regard for their lives because the class abilities are geared to make that practical behavior.

[NobleWolf]

Abandon, driven off, however you want to phrase it. The writers deliberately worded it in a way that did not imply that followers would be subsumed within the believers, but that they would leave. Given that followers are generally depicted as above-average but not extraordinary folk outside the typical comforts of hearth and home, it would stand that their wills would not be as easily sublimated as the farming folk and city trash that turn up as believers.
And no, I'm not assuming that they have the Leadership feat. You're the one arguing the tone of the writing, and I'm using what's written. Also, if we ignore balance game mechanics, we throw out all the noise you made on it being Extraordinary rather than Supernatural. Either way, my argument stands.

You say adaptable and receptive. I say receptive and vulnerable. And let's take a look a few paragraphs up. "Thrallherds manipulate the minds of others as if they were clay in the hands of a sculptor." As I said, a pliable object needs someone to ply it. When thinking of others' minds in terms such as this, with a few exceptions, is a sign of superiority, arrogance, and corruption. But wait, there's more.
"Some creatures are more suceptible than others to the thrallherd's unconcious, but continual, call to service." The unconcious line is about the only save against evil they have, but unless your backstory has it that she doesn't know that she's an enslaving hellbitch that doesn't really address the point at hand. Moving on.
"And so they come, eager to be led, happy to follow, and completely under the thrallherd's control." Really, if that isn't a setup for "power corrupts" I don't know what is.
"In this way, thrallherds keep a minor menagerie of enthralled servants that are anxious to do their will."

If you are seriously going to defend that the tone of this is ethically neutral, I'm just going to call you quaintly naive right here and point you down another couple paragraphs to where the only example of thrallherd behavior in the entire writeup involves sacrificing believers without regard for their lives because the class abilities are geared to make that practical behavior.

You're argument has degraded into hurtful flames and the very childish banter I was hoping to avoid. If anything, you've just done my work for me. The fact they come happily and anxious to serve puts them on the same level as followers, or did you capture all of yours?
How is this any different from warriors being drafted to battle against invading hordes? If anything it's better, since they actually want to do so. This supports my claim that psychic resonance binds them to a greater whole (See previous posts). In the hands of an evil thrallherd, their dedication will be abused. In the care of a protector, their trouble and teamwork will be rewarded.
As for "Thrallherds manipulate the minds of others as if they were clay in the hands of a sculptor." - So do beguilers, feyblooded warlocks, wizards, bards, and about a half-dozen other examples with good alignments being a norm. It's called charm and dominate spells and powers, but again, the powers and spells themselves are not innately evil.
As for the NPC Thrallherd suggestions, of course they're evil. In a typical campaign setting , evil NPCs play the villains while good (or at least non-evil) PCs fight against them. Do some research on other prestige classes with varied alignments and you'll find the same story over and over again.
See, all you have are opinions, nothing more. Preconceived notions and unwarranted bias against a character and class you don't even fully understand. It's all personal interpretation and opinions. At the end of the day, that's what these silly moral arguments end up being. Both sides will have good points, and neither side is particularly wrong, but it's doubtful either of us will change our minds anytime soon. We could flood the entire message boards with endless bickering, but it'll be the same.
I believe thrallherds aren't inherently evil. You believe thrallherds are inherently evil. I presented my case, but It ended up being a waste of time for both of us. But I'd like to think that if two mature adults can look at the same thing and come up with two polar opposite concepts, that they would both have to agree there is a bit of gray area in between.

[Ryvaken]

Check other NPC descriptions for classes. Neutral and good usually, but not always, get as much attention as evil. The point was more that the class is geared towards that abuse than that other possibilities were not mentioned.

When presented with an opinion, a mature adult examines it, the facts at hand, weighs it against his own store of knowledge, experience, beliefs, and arises at a conclusion. The terminology commonly used in those subgenres of science fiction, fantasy, and rarely contemporary fiction where mind control, memory alteration, or meme warfare are used and discussed match the terminology of thrallherd almost perfectly, with "believer" being the more cult-derived exception to the trend. Since the very nature of the thrallherd is also aligned with this genre, semantic arguments originating from other perspectives do not hold muster. I read your arguments, I analyzed them, and I dismissed them based on their lack of merit, nothing more, nothing less. You do me grave insult by suggesting otherwise.

Also, to quote Michael Stackpole, "The assumption of grey is sloppy, lazy thinking. The fact that one person takes a position that is diametrically opposed to the truth does not then skew reality so the truth is no longer the truth. The truth is still the truth." Ugh. I forgot how awkwardly worded that quote was. Still, it's a good line to bring out when someone mistakes conviction and analysis for stubbornness and immaturity.

[Mnemaxa]

The flaw in your argument is where you placed the atrocity. It is in the act of violating the sovereign mind of another and enslaving him, not because he is a threat to himself or others, but because you can. How you treat your herd of slaves is far and away less telling than the fact that you have a herd of slaves.

Edit: Okay, my computer did something weird and posted an earlier draft without me realizing it. Let me play catchup here.

Okay, first off I reported every definition of thrall I landed on. Then I decided semantics was a rather pointless game to play, which is why it didn't make my final draft.
As to why the class wasn't more appropriately created, it comes from a psionic handbook. I've long since given up trying to puzzle out what those writers were smoking and is generally simpler to disallow the books in their entirety. However I find that expressing such opinions is generally counterproductive to making a proper argument, and mildly hypocritical as there is some material that is salvageable. Thrallherd is actually one of the least objectionable in this regard, needing only a nongood restriction. I do accept that not everyone shares my opinion that mental domination of this kind is one of the more depraved abominations of the human imagination, otherwise I would have had the class placed in Vile Darkness, although Lords of Madness is also appropriate with the Illithid aspirations.

Thrallherd is a misnomer. 

The people who come to serve a Thallherd do so because their minds are designed to respond to his telepathic need for servitors.  A thrallherd, in the mechanics of D&D is a telepath who "tunes in" to those submissive personalities that mesh with his goals and desires, and they respond to his call.  He is a Dominant personality with the power to call those whom desire to serve him and his goals specifically.  They actually have free will - he is not dominating them, he is simply providing the focus for their subconsciously submissive nature.  A Thrallherd can be good, evil, lawful, chaotic, or neutral, and his believers and thralls will support him in both deed and the nature of their service to him.

[Ryvaken]

An interesting interpretation. I never argued that the thrallherd was dominating his believers into mindless puppets, merely that he was subverting their ability to choose. Something like the difference between Charm and Dominate. That his victims could be receptive to being used like that is...well I've certainly encountered stranger fetishes. I would still argue that using others in such a fashion is inherently nongood behavior, however you've made a solid case for a nonevil one.

[Zaer Darkwail]

So, in essence Thrallherd just lures more effectively people/followers than normal guy who has very high charisma and holds public speeches about his goals. Thrallherd does not need hold speeches, he just calls people who share his ideals and lures them towards him through telepathy.

With such feature I wonder why they did not add 'telepathy' power as they did to mindbender (which is arcane variant of thrallherd but he outright charms/dominates people with spells and is non-good alignment restricted PrC).

[Mnemaxa]

So, in essence Thrallherd just lures more effectively people/followers than normal guy who has very high charisma and holds public speeches about his goals. Thrallherd does not need hold speeches, he just calls people who share his ideals and lures them towards him through telepathy.

With such feature I wonder why they did not add 'telepathy' power as they did to mindbender (which is arcane variant of thrallherd but he outright charms/dominates people with spells and is non-good alignment restricted PrC).

They have to have mindlink to gain the PrC, and as they go up in levels, they gain the Domination power, with much reduced costs at higher levels. 

An interesting interpretation. I never argued that the thrallherd was dominating his believers into mindless puppets, merely that he was subverting their ability to choose. Something like the difference between Charm and Dominate. That his victims could be receptive to being used like that is...well I've certainly encountered stranger fetishes. I would still argue that using others in such a fashion is inherently nongood behavior, however you've made a solid case for a nonevil one.

A cleric using the Entrhall spell is actually a more evil case study than a thrallherd.  The people who serve a thrallherd choose to do so out of subconscious need, but they retain their free will.  A cleric - any cleric - who uses the Enthrall spell is actually taking that choice away from those he casts the spell on, even if he uses his power over them for good purposes.  The fact that they may not be hostile to start with is irrelevant to the fact that he can literally take the free will of hundreds of people away.

A thrallherd who is evil can be a monster...but then, the nature of his believers will expect and conform to that, and they will expect nothign less from their master.  A lawful good thrallherd can be a potent force for good, with believers who will do their utmost to take care of those in need, protect the helpless, and help protect their master.  Imagine Robin Hood as a Chaotic Good thrallherd....

But, I'll leave you folks to it. 

[Fallenpaladin7]

ok guys here is my character

Name: Gabriel Pyrestrike

Race: Dragon descended Human (red)

Gender: male

Class: Warblade

Alignment: LG

Character sheet: http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=175578

Description: Gabriel stands 6ft tall and weighs 180lbs.  He has Red hair that he keeps cut at about his shoulder length.  He also has red eyes.  He is has a slender build.  Gabriel usually wears leather pants and a simple wool shirt. 

Background comming soon.

[Idej]

Character Sheet Thread

[Delta Echo]

I've finally finished my application, do I post it here or there?
(Or everywhere? :P)

[Idej]

You can post your character here if you want and at the character sheet thread if you want.  Posting it in the character sheet thread just shows that you are ready to go.

[Delta Echo]

And it's posted. :)

[Bayushi]

This game intrigues me.

I'd very much enjoy this game, makes me think of Council of Wyrms(<3 AD&D).

I think I'll work up a character here in the morning, and will be game for this game.

[Idej]

Go for it, always accepting players. :)