Refugees, Immigration, and Other Complexities (split from News)

[Dashenka]

Passengers were stuck for 14 hours in the Eurostar service from Paris to London because illegal migrants had climbed on the train and the tracks.

http://news.sky.com/story/1545202/eurostar-fiasco-as-migrants-block-tracks

I wonder how much longer Europe can sit on their hands and do nothing at all about this problem.

[gaggedLouise]

Passengers were stuck for 14 hours in the Eurostar service from Paris to London because illegal migrants had climbed on the train and the tracks.

http://news.sky.com/story/1545202/eurostar-fiasco-as-migrants-block-tracks

I wonder how much longer Europe can sit on their hands and do nothing at all about this problem.

Yep, and the main central train station at Budapest seems to have become one of the flashpoints of the crisis. Yesterday it was locked down by police for a few hours around noon after it had been thronged with immigrants from the Near East aiming to catch a train ride north, looking to ultimately get to Germany, Sweden or - Britain..

After a while they opened the station again, but with entry checkpoints to aim to keep non-EU immigrants out.  Later on there were people demonstraing against the police outside, but no real bloodshed I think. Hungary is channeling most of the flood of refugees and immigrants coming up from Turkey and the Balkans. Apart from Greece which cannot handle anything much and is so far south, Hungary is the first stop on the road inside the inner core of "Europe land" (with the passport-free Schengen zone and fast international trains) , it's where people all want to get through, and saying that the cabinet, politicians and police in Budapest are frustrated with this is the understatement of the year.  :P

Of course, the horrible incident where seventy hidden refugees perished in a packed delivery truck that stood parked beside the motorway from Budapest to Vienna has only heightened pressure.

I personally think Germany and Sweden are doing the right thing by essentially treating anyone fleeing from Syria or IS as valid refugees, no matter what with the slow and fussy international bureaucracy, but we can't go it alone for very much longer. And there needs to be a shared EU response both to the migrant crisis in Europe and to the zones of unrest on the other side of the Mediterranean, which is feeing the flow in so many ways.

[Dashenka]

So being at risk for getting flamed at...

You cannot flee your home country, demanding that another country will just welcome you, give you a house and a job.

It took me miles of paperwork to be allowed to settle in the UK and work in the UK. Those immigrants from Africa cannot just demand they get the same thing, just because they are refugees. That is discrimination.


If they are fleeing the war, why not go to Algeria? Or Egypt? Or stay in Greece or accept what Italy is offering you.

[LisztesFerenc]

If they are fleeing the war, why not go to Algeria? Or Egypt?

  Why would Algeria and Egypt be more oblidged to take in refugees from other countries? Because they are closer? Because their skin colour is more similar? The West is better equipped to handle refugees, with our infrastructure and resources. Why they don't stay in Italy is a fair point, but Italy won#t be able to take all the refugees. There's also the unfortunate fact that a lot of refugees are fleeing problems created by the West, such as the Taliban and general destabilization leftover from the colonial era.

[Dashenka]

Well the way I see it there are two types of refugees.

The honest ones, who just flee the war or unrest and who are willing to go back to their country once it settles down.


The other ones, are the leeches. They flee their own country, hoping and demanding western countries will take them in, put them in a good house with income support funded by the government. These people do not go back when the war is over and will keep upsetting their new countries.

UNLESS... they are willing to integrate, learn the language and do a spot of work. Unfortunately, as a lot of countries can agree with, there is a rather big group that refuse to do any of that but at the same time demand a lot of stuff.

I'm all for helping people but not at all cost. Help is free, up to a point.

[gaggedLouise]

So being at risk for getting flamed at...

You cannot flee your home country, demanding that another country will just welcome you, give you a house and a job.

It took me miles of paperwork to be allowed to settle in the UK and work in the UK. Those immigrants from Africa cannot just demand they get the same thing, just because they are refugees. That is discrimination.


If they are fleeing the war, why not go to Algeria? Or Egypt? Or stay in Greece or accept what Italy is offering you.

Nobody's talking about giving them a house for free; at the point when they are getting processed in Berlin, Paris or Gothenburg it's more like low-cost barracks, disused schools converted into living quarters or rapidly built apartments. or regular refugee camps, like the one at Calais near the Eurostar line. The "immigrant dole" they receive from the authorities is extremely meagre and often we're talking about families with children.

If they want a house they will have to earn it by their own work, I'm sure they understand that. The authorities here are not giving away any houses or apartments, not even to the natives (except in rare emergency cases). I see beggars sitting outside food stores and those kinds of places every day around here lately, it's the same in Stockholm and Berlin. I don't think those guys are getting their pockets filled by the local town council.  :-(

Greece and Italy have no resources for now, no money or political muscle to help them, nor has Romania, Macedonia or Algeria. It's a hard situation, but if we don't want hundreds of thousands more to get killed on the ground in Syria, Libya, Iraq or Somalia, or some of them to get trafficked as hookers or slave labour, or really starved, we simply have to help them. Sending them back across the Med or back to Greece or Turkey will solve absolutely nothing.


EDIT: Also, I don't think most of those who fled the wars in Africa and Syria will remain here forever after those wars have come to an end and things look better at home. But that's going to take several years in some of those regions.

[Oniya]

Refugees tend to end up 'where they can get to'.  It's not necessarily a conscious decision to go to Place A as much as it is a desperate need to leave Place B.  Sometimes they get rerouted from one destination to another - this sort of thing happened in WWII.  Sometimes they are preyed upon by the unscrupulous who say 'Sure, we can get you set up in Place A for - how much cash do you have on you, by the way?'  This sort of thing happened (and still happens) in various Oriental countries.  Arrival at Place A in either case often doesn't go well, for obvious reasons.

When you moved to London, you had time and resources to set up for your eventual 'landing'.  When explosions are going off across the street, there is only time to grab your family and possibly some belongings and run.

[Dashenka]

I would agree were it not for the hundreds of migrants waiting at the Channel Tunnel to leave France and get into the UK.

That is a conscious decision to get to the UK, literally at all costs.

[gaggedLouise]

I would agree were it not for the hundreds of migrants waiting at the Channel Tunnel to leave France and get into the UK.

That is a conscious decision to get to the UK, literally at all costs.

I see what you mean Dasha, but I don't think you can blame them overmuch for "not getting the big picture" of conditions elsewhere in France plus politics. Most of those people likely just know very limited French or none at all, they are kept at the camp almost 24/7 so they have next to no contact with ordinary Frenchmen or even with countrymen living in France. Most of them don't read French or English newspapers anything much I figure. The Paris region (where many near easterns and African immigrants live) is like 200 km to the south-west, so getting *there* by legal methods from Calais is a no-go for most of them, and they cannot buy a train ticket either way (because I bet most of them don't have any valid national ID documents of the sort you'd need to book such a ticket, and you can't just jump on the Eurostar like you board a local train, can you?).

95% of those people don't have any way of checking anything much about what the legal procedure is for trying to immigrate to Britain or Germany,where to live in different parts of France,  or to train for a job or even set up a small business of their own at the refugee camp. They're pretty much stuck and they want to get out.  Of course they want to get to London!

[Iniquitous]

So you think they should stay in their country and die? I can understand the extremely long and drawn out process to become a legal citizen if they were just leaving because they want to live in another country, but these people are refugees. Displaced because their own country is imploding and remaining there would see them and their family dead. The two situations are not even comparable.

[Dashenka]

They've crossed the entire continent to get to the Channel Tunnel. Surely they'll find their way back to Paris if they had to.


And as I said, I'm all for helping them but up to a certain point. That is NOT the same as saying they should stay in their own country. Just because they are refugees doesn't make them more important than other people who are waiting for homes in the UK, or anywhere in Europe.

I got a friend in the Netherlands who's been waiting for a house to live in because she cannot stay in her current house. Everytime she is about to have one, refugees get the house because 'they need a place to stay'. The Dutch government (and many, many other countries as well) treat their own people as lesser subject in order to house those refugees.

THAT is wrong in my opinion.

[gaggedLouise]

They've crossed the entire continent to get to the Channel Tunnel. Surely they'll find their way back to Paris if they had to.


And as I said, I'm all for helping them but up to a certain point. That is NOT the same as saying they should stay in their own country. Just because they are refugees doesn't make them more important than other people who are waiting for homes in the UK, or anywhere in Europe.

I got a friend in the Netherlands who's been waiting for a house to live in because she cannot stay in her current house. Everytime she is about to have one, refugees get the house because 'they need a place to stay'. The Dutch government (and many, many other countries as well) treat their own people as lesser subject in order to house those refugees.

THAT is wrong in my opinion.

Well, I just find it hard to relate to that because the authorities here (in Sweden or any Nordic country) don't give away any houses - at most, they might pay the rent for an apartment as part of a sustenance income support ("poverty dole"), and you'd have to reapply for that every few months, but that would not mean finding an apartment, the city council pushing them past anybody else in the queue ir even setting up a meeting with a landlord. It's only about assuring that someone who does have a running lease on a flat doesn't get kicked out into the street because they can't pay the rent.

And I dare say it's the same in most places in Germany or France. In the UK I've heard there is this system with "council flats" where a low-earning family is granted a flat for themselves by the town and can keep it for decades, so it's really like it's theirs, but I don't think any other country does that these days. It's an old system in the UK, and those flats are mostly old and located in bulk in special low-cost built quarters of a town.

So I don't really know what kind of "promise of a house" your friend was cheated on in the Netherlands. Immigrants and refugees don't enjoy any quick-fix "right to have a house for free" anywhere in Europe as far as I know.

[eBadger]

Speaking from a nation largely founded by refugees (which even we seem to constantly forget about) I contest the idea that they are a bunch of lazy leeches. 

UNLESS... they are willing to integrate, learn the language and do a spot of work. Unfortunately, as a lot of countries can agree with, there is a rather big group that refuse to do any of that but at the same time demand a lot of stuff.

This is a large part of the immigrant paradox.  Locals want to give them little or nothing to work with, and are somehow surprised when they don't prosper into contributing citizens; or, when they do, decide they were given too much, too easy. 

Refugees tend to end up 'where they can get to'. 

This isn't just about geographic location, either - particularly in today's interconnected world.  Perhaps they have family in the UK, and want to connect with the only people in the world they know; perhaps they speak some English, and know they will be more comfortable and successful in a country where they can communicate; perhaps they simply aren't being all that welcomed in France and are under immense pressure to move along.  Note that refugee camps aren't really known for healthy living and safety. 

You cannot flee your home country, demanding that another country will just welcome you, give you a house and a job.

Actually, I think there is some notion of a basic human entitlement to the necessities of life, which every country and person should respect on some fundamental level.  Under the threat of violence, starvation, and persecution that the IS represents that should not have to be demanded.  I rarely like to speak in absolutes, and there is certainly a great deal of discussion that needs to occur about addressing the causes of emigration and sharing the burden, but I believe it is basic morality that children should not be left to starve or men and women to be murdered because we want to save a few tax dollars for another iPad. 

[Dashenka]

So I should stop trying to stick to the rules of my UK visa and stop waiting for three more years before I can get my British citizenship. I should just wear shambles, come on a train and claim I'm a refugee from a country that wants me dead, which being Russian, sort of is a valid point.

I'd get everything I got now and worked hard for, for fuck all other than being a migrant refugee.

I know I'm putting it mildly black and white but I don't see how that is fair in any way, shape or form.

[Iniquitous]

I was reading an article earlier this morning about the Syrian refugees coming into Michigan and what they get when they get here.

Each family receives a $900, one-time stipend upon arrival in the United States. The majority of the money goes towards rent; the rest goes towards basics like food and toiletries.

I suspect that every other country is similar in what they give to refugees.  If the UK is giving out houses, then it is because of the outdated system the UK has.

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/syrias-suffering-families/syrian-families-escape-war-new-life-michigan-n419692

[gaggedLouise]

So I should stop trying to stick to the rules of my UK visa and stop waiting for three more years before I can get my British citizenship. I should just wear shambles, come on a train and claim I'm a refugee from a country that wants me dead, which being Russian, sort of is a valid point.

I'd get everything I got now and worked hard for, for fuck all other than being a migrant refugee.

I know I'm putting it mildly black and white but I don't see how that is fair in any way, shape or form.

Gee, it's hard news to me that there would be such a thing as a pipeline for getting a house or a job for free in London.  ::) The city on the river is one of the most expensive places to live, or to find an apartment, in all of western Europe. Many people coming to London to studý or work (on a regular visa) share an apartment in a suburb and pack themselves together four or five in a place of, like seventy square meters. If you're strangers or semi-strangers, that means next to no privacy - and still they'll pay a few hundred pounds each of them, every month. I'd be super surprised if refugees or people on short-term immigrant visas are given an apartment of that size all or themselves, for a family of two adults and a kid or something.

**


*looks around for purple deities* Thread breakout, please?

[Dashenka]

I never said a free house. But there are people who need houses just as much as the refugees do. These houses are cheap in rent. To put refugees in them when your own citizens need them as well is just stupid.

[Blythe]

*looks around for purple deities* Thread breakout, please?

Will split it to a new topic in a sec~

[Blythe]

And should be split now for it's own topic--I think I got everything that needed to be in here. Carry on, folks.  :-)

[eBadger]

So I should stop trying to stick to the rules of my UK visa and stop waiting for three more years before I can get my British citizenship.

Are you in immediate and acute danger of starvation or death?  These aren't people who are going to spend the next three years chatting on the internet, they're trying to avoid being dead.  Fair is not always equal and yes, you should be stuck waiting while their basic needs are seen to. 

By all means, though, if you think it's the easy way then head to Syria and make your way from there. 

To put refugees in them when your own citizens need them as well is just stupid.

Or basic morality.  'Need' is so very open to interpretation. 

[Dashenka]

Okay my friend is in a wheelchair, she lives in a flat, 7 high and has lost her job. She needs a cheaper house on the ground floor.

Sorry miss, we had one but we gave it to a Syrian family who needed it more than you do, cause you can go to hell while we help Syrians first, because they are much more important.


Yeah that's morality. Good luck explaining that to my friend...

[Iniquitous]

She has a place yes? Granted, it is inconvenient and she is in need of a cheaper place she can afford.... but the refugees have NOTHING. I'm sorry - I would put a displaced homeless family above someone who already HAS a place.

[LisztesFerenc]

Okay my friend is in a wheelchair, she lives in a flat, 7 high and has lost her job. She needs a cheaper house on the ground floor.

Sorry miss, we had one but we gave it to a Syrian family who needed it more than you do, cause you can go to hell while we help Syrians first, because they are much more important.


Yeah that's morality. Good luck explaining that to my friend...

  As a general rule, any policy is going to suck for someone somewhere, and finding such an individual does little to demerit the policy. For example, I don't find it inherently unreasonable that your friend, who I assume is single, subside on unemployment/disability benefits for an extra 6 month or so because priority was given to a family with young children. She should get a flat eventually, and she was always going to wait. The immigration crisis means she is going to wait a little longer, which sucks, but so does turning away desperate families with even less options than she has. Maybe her friends or possibly could help her, an option the immigrant family does not have for example.

[Vekseid]

   There's also the unfortunate fact that a lot of refugees are fleeing problems created by the West, such as the Taliban and general destabilization leftover from the colonial era.

This is a really fucked up statement, considering just why the these powers were subjugated in the first place.

There is a way out of the cycle of violence. 'Pure tolerance' is not it.

She has a place yes? Granted, it is inconvenient and she is in need of a cheaper place she can afford.... but the refugees have NOTHING. I'm sorry - I would put a displaced homeless family above someone who already HAS a place.

She votes.

There is certainly a way for both her and the genuine refugees to be taken care of, but that does not seem to be in the interest of the ruling parties in Europe at this time.

I wonder why.

[LisztesFerenc]

This is a really fucked up statement, considering just why the these powers were subjugated in the first place.

There is a way out of the cycle of violence. 'Pure tolerance' is not it.

  I don't quite get what you mean by this, or why you think pure tolerance somehow relates to what I said. Why was my statement fucked up?