WH40000 - what's your opinion?

[Inkidu]

Here's a discussion of why Space Women Marines wouldn't be thing, not because the process doesn't work but because it isn't used. Because the Imperium is the Imperium and the social commentary that entails. https://askrobouteguilliman40k.tumblr.com/post/702055429799395328/gender-and-warhammer-40000

Yeah but these are custodes, which are different and created by different processes, but yes I generally agree and that's something people forget. 

The lore exists to push plastic. 

They like the lore, but the lore is to get people into the TTG where they make their money. 

I am pro-female space marines. But I acknowledge only two arguments against them that hold any weight:

1. It's GW's property and they can do what they want with it. 

2. It would ruin the dystopian pubescent Peter-Pan fantasy that the space marines have come to represent. Girls have cooties and they can't do cool things like fight and quest and hang out with the boys.

[Andol]

Yeah but these are custodes, which are different and created by different processes, but yes I generally agree and that's something people forget.

The lore exists to push plastic.

They like the lore, but the lore is to get people into the TTG where they make their money.

I am pro-female space marines. But I acknowledge only two arguments against them that hold any weight:

1. It's GW's property and they can do what they want with it.

2. It would ruin the dystopian pubescent Peter-Pan fantasy that the space marines have come to represent. Girls have cooties and they can't do cool things like fight and quest and hang out with the boys.

So you are flat out ignoring the in lore reasons why female marine's don't exist? Yeah sure GW could change that at any time, but they would be going against established lore to do so. Here let me just link you my favorite bit of info on why,



I was annoyed about the female Custodes, not because it is exist. As in the lore they are made form Dark Age tech. To say that Dark Age tech couldn't create Custodes of both genders is really really stupid.

No what bothers me is because they didn't put out a new model. It was just a one off mention in the codex. They had plenty of time to throw something into the Horus Heresy books over it, especially the Siege of Terra, but now that those are over the only logical thing to do would be to say the female Custodes where not there during the Emperors time of need. Also he always referred them as his 'Sons'... so that is kind of weird... along with many other mis-pronoun use by the Custodes calling each other by male pronouns throughout the written lore.

I mean I had a bit of a head-canon as to why they were not around as it was the only thing that made sense remotely. In that they used to be guardians for Eruda... and when she joined Horus during the Heresy, they went into self exile in their shame for not seeing it sooner. Now they are back to reinforce the 10,000 due to the various problems going on.

The whole thing reeks of lazy writing which at this point doesn't surprise me. 

[Norwegian One]

I like Bricky's take on the matter, and I agree with his main points:

https://youtu.be/9pBJb_OjxEI?si=0fjDqz1NWLha_5Zl

1) ret-cons happen all the time.
2) the way this particular one was presented was less than ideal.
3) saying that "female Custodes removes the point of the Sisters of Silence" reduces their main purpose to 'being a female counterpart', which does them a disservice. 
4) a very vocal minority in the 40k fandom sometimes makes it embarrassing to be a Warhammer fan.

[Inkidu]

So you are flat out ignoring the in lore reasons why female marine's don't exist? Yeah sure GW could change that at any time, but they would be going against established lore to do so.

No, it's just covered under reason one. It's their property, they're the lore keepers. They can change the lore. No fan has any ownership of that, they can't change it, all they can do is choose to engage with it or not and female custodes just doesn't break the bank for me and is at least more in keeping with the potential lore of the series if not its traditions. If you think the writing is lazy that's fine, but it's not like they can't do it or won't.

My personal reasons as to why or why not female space marines are really immaterial. Maybe old Emps is just a sexist, maybe he's just not that smart, but you're not going to convince me it's impossible given what the emperor had to pull to make the space marines in the first place, and like I also said, there's reason two. It does ruin that bit of the--as we're reminded every book--to be a human in the 41st millennium is to live in the worst regime EVER. It's a bad place, no one's good, everything is bad all the time, and that comes with thing like sexism, xenophobia, hatred, and all sorts of bad things. I think the problem with the fanbase is they get in their little camp or they laugh at the one funny Necron or they think the Orks are a right good bunch of lads and they forget that this is all bad, all the time, and that's the point.

If you want the Doylist reason as to why their were no female space marines and no female custodes it wasn't something designed from the start. The first edition apparently had female space marine models and the custodes looked really bondagy. The thing was the female models didn't sell to teenage boys in the 80s so shops didn't want to carry dead stock.

The lore, as much as they do put effort into it exists to push plastic and it is shaped by their product line decisions and not the other way around. Now they have been pretty firm on no girls in space marine clubhouse for years, but not every custodes was ever at the emperor's side. What if some the lads and lasses were stuck at the gates. If Emps could call up his whole honor guard then Horus wouldn't have been an issue.

While I tend to agree it's a little lazy it's nothing that shoring up some writing couldn't fix in the future. Everyone hated Primaris Marines off the cuff too. I just acknowledge that the no-female-space-marine camp and the female-space-marine camp both have no power over what is done by GW. I just think people often use "lore" to as some immutable thing when they really mean tradition.

All you can do is engage or walk away, the latter being easier I imagine if you don't have model armies with lots of money sunk into them. Sure, could it end up like modern Star Wars or insert ruined property here? Yeah. Sucks, but I've never seen a fan boycott that worked.

PS. Really the SoS are just gold SoB and that's GW's fault, don't get me wrong, but also I bet dollars to doughnuts the SoS lines just don't sell well. 

[greenknight]

It's a retcon that becoming a spehss mehreen requires male biology. The Imperial Commander is now the chapter master and the Dark Angels' is no longer called the Custodian, too. <shrug>

[Andol]

It's a retcon that becoming a spehss mehreen requires male biology. The Imperial Commander is now the chapter master and the Dark Angels' is no longer called the Custodian, too. <shrug>

Do you have a source for this Green Knight that shows that this is a retcon? Oh and no the change from Rogue Trader to 40k isn't a retcon as the base lore wasn't codified in the way we know it at the time.

No, it's just covered under reason one. It's their property, they're the lore keepers. They can change the lore. No fan has any ownership of that, they can't change it, all they can do is choose to engage with it or not and female custodes just doesn't break the bank for me and is at least more in keeping with the potential lore of the series if not its traditions. If you think the writing is lazy that's fine, but it's not like they can't do it or won't.

My personal reasons as to why or why not female space marines are really immaterial. Maybe old Emps is just a sexist, maybe he's just not that smart, but you're not going to convince me it's impossible given what the emperor had to pull to make the space marines in the first place, and like I also said, there's reason two. It does ruin that bit of the--as we're reminded every book--to be a human in the 41st millennium is to live in the worst regime EVER. It's a bad place, no one's good, everything is bad all the time, and that comes with thing like sexism, xenophobia, hatred, and all sorts of bad things. I think the problem with the fanbase is they get in their little camp or they laugh at the one funny Necron or they think the Orks are a right good bunch of lads and they forget that this is all bad, all the time, and that's the point.

Well it is as you said above you can choose to engage with the lore or not and by outright throwing the reasons given right from the lore as to why they can’t be made out the window and saying “You can’t convince me…”. Then you are not engaging the lore, so you are right… I can’t convince you of anything in a good faith argument that is based on the lore of the setting so I won’t even try on that end. Because you will ignore any sources I bring forth.

I don’t think there is any problem with the fan base as a whole. In fact among 40k players I have found a group of guys who have been very supportive in many areas of my life. So I get the feeling you have a very negative outlook on people who play the game or something… I mean if I am wrong I am sorry, but that is just how I read into it.

Plus you are ignoring  the fact that in this dark setting it is how humanity reacts despite all the horror that goes on around them that makes it good. There are many interesting characters and some I find relatable. Including the demi-god primarchs themselves who where always my favorite characters… the Heresy books where great.

I am leaving more evidence from the lore here, because I prefer to bring the receipts when it comes to talking about it.

If you want the Doylist reason as to why their were no female space marines and no female custodes it wasn't something designed from the start. The first edition apparently had female space marine models and the custodes looked really bondagy. The thing was the female models didn't sell to teenage boys in the 80s so shops didn't want to carry dead stock.

Ah well I can explain that part to you. The ‘first edition female marine’ as you call her. Her name was Space Warrior Jane. She was actually created during the Rouge Trader era and this was before the lore of the game was codified down.

Below was a bit about them from the Rouge Trader days, kind of hard to read, but it study the picture and the old model you are referencing we can see a lot of Sister of Battle's future regalia in the picture and then a few things on the model's shoulder pad being similar. This is what I will mean below when I talk about it being a proto-Sister of Battle.


 


However, what we did get was something better. You see that model is seen as the proto-Sister of Battle. The Sisters of Battle are way cooler. I got into 40k because of them and it was only in 8^th edition that GW really gave them their due as well as in 9^th. To me the presence of female marines would allow GW to be lazy again.

They need to support the Sisters of Battle more. Give us more sprues to make female Imperial Guard. Give the Sisters of Silence better rules so that they are not just used as a single squad back field objective holder and can legit be taken as an entire army and they would sell better.

Lore and tabletop wise the Sisters of Battle are just as good as the Marines. They were the same armor, and even have their own version of the WAGGHHH. Their belief in the Emperor makes stuff happen. The more there are in an area… the more effect it has. This is represented in miracle dice rules and it is awesome.

You asked about the Sisters of Silence and how they sell… they sell as they are needed to hold back field objectives. Oh and they are not Gold Sisters of Battle. That is ignoring everything about what makes these two groups of ladies different and what they do both on and off the table top, but yeah… gross simplification being what it is my dude.

The lore, as much as they do put effort into it exists to push plastic and it is shaped by their product line decisions and not the other way around. Now they have been pretty firm on no girls in space marine clubhouse for years, but not every custodes was ever at the emperor's side. What if some the lads and lasses were stuck at the gates. If Emps could call up his whole honor guard then Horus wouldn't have been an issue.

Eh maybe so as GW has always said they are a model company and not a game company. Also when I meant the Emperor’s time of need I meant during the siege of terra itself, but I understand what you mean. However in that moment he faced Horus you do understand that yes he could have done what you said, but he didn’t for a reason.

He was trying to save his son, or at the least look for a way to. To see if there was something within Horus worth saving, and that was what allowed Horus to stab the Emperor and injure him so. If the big E had been out to kill from the start… it would have been over too quick. It was only when the Emperor saw how callously the biggest Giga Chad in the universe… Ollanius Pius… a regular guardsmen who stepped forward to protect his master in his time of need… was cut down by Horus did he see his son was lost. So he struck him down and ended that fight.

While I tend to agree it's a little lazy it's nothing that shoring up some writing couldn't fix in the future. Everyone hated Primaris Marines off the cuff too. I just acknowledge that the no-female-space-marine camp and the female-space-marine camp both have no power over what is done by GW. I just think people often use "lore" to as some immutable thing when they really mean tradition.

Oh your wrong about them having no power. People have a lot of power when they can vote with their wallet and Warhammer is an expensive hobby. Also you keep using lore as though it means nothing and so I wanted to bring that up here.
 
If lore really means nothing, then why does it matter if they don’t have female space marines? As a player someone can build their own models that are female space marines. In fact there are two lost legions just for this purpose. GW built them in so that people can make up custom legions for themselves. You don't need GW to do it for you.

The lore is the setting and the rules of the setting and the world created. Yes 40k is pretty grimdark and goes in many directions at once, but it does have its clear set of world building rules. If you just strip those away then what is the point of investing time into models or emotion into the setting if the core of the setting is just rendered meaningless all the time because ‘lore means nothing’?

All you can do is engage or walk away, the latter being easier I imagine if you don't have model armies with lots of money sunk into them. Sure, could it end up like modern Star Wars or insert ruined property here? Yeah. Sucks, but I've never seen a fan boycott that worked.

The mistake GW is making is they jack up their prices all the time. 3d printers go brrrr. If they keep pissing off their core fanbase then people can keep playing Warhammer, but just 3d print their miniatures… it is that easy. 3d printing GW models is becoming cheaper than buying or anything Warhammer related.

It won’t be a boycott, but it will be a slow death of really the only hobby that I have in my local area that has brought me the most joy. I see this female Custodes as GW stupidly putting their toe in the Rubicon... and if they made female space marines... it would be the crossing of it.

3) saying that "female Custodes removes the point of the Sisters of Silence" reduces their main purpose to 'being a female counterpart', which does them a disservice.

No... no it doesn't. Because you are missing the entire concept of the Talon's of the Emperor. The Custodes and Sisters of Silence have to work together because they compliment each other in battle. They represent the very pinnacle of men and women fighting side by side in the Imperium of man. Each with skill sets that are different, but without the other they could not do their job of protecting the Emperor and preforming his will.

So my point still stands that female Custodes reduce this entire meaning behind the Talons...

[Inkidu]

I had this whole thing addressing your points one at a time but it got buggered so now you're going the spark notes.

Never said lore didn't matter (I literally didn't. I even ctrl-F the phrase and you're the only one bringing it up you even quote yourself), never said I didn't accept the lore as presented. I just said that I personally thought there were only two really good arguments for all-male space marines.

1. GW's lore, they own it, it's there's to do with what they please, poorly or greatly, badly or smartly.
2. There is a nice dystopian Peter-Pan thing that plays into the grim-dark setting about child soldiers living out a pubescent fantasy. Dark stuff, great approved.

If you're missing the point, this means I endorse the lore on all-male space marines under those larger reasons. All the stuff written into manuals is at the end of the day in-universe justification which is important to a narrative but it is not some immutable iron walls that GW can no longer move now that's it's placed. They would just need to in-universe justify it another way. They've done it before, they'll do it again. Maybe not with female space marines, but with something else. You really don't have to slap up a bunch of extracts because I'm not discounting the lore of the setting.

Part 2: All fanbases have their problems. All fanbases have their toxic, mean, nasty gatekeepers. That's a fact of life and it's not a good one. Yes there are two lost primarchs and lo and behold if I went through the expense and the effort of building and immaculately painting an all-female chapter of space marines by say using just the power armor from the males and female guardsmen or SoB, SoS heads (if that's possible I think it is given how models work, but if it isn't then it kind of shows people need GW to embrace it for it to happen, right?)

You're lying to yourself if you think that there wouldn't be people who would nasty-comment me away from the table. So why would I a potential customer pay that much money and spend that much time to not be able to play and then get ridiculed at best for trying? Then you're kind of in some doublethink. Here you illustrate that it's possible for someone to that, but it matters that they don't, or at least that GW doesn't. It matters so much it would ruin your enjoyment of the whole setting. You simultaneously illustrate that the setting both can and cannot support the thing at the same time. That's not good.

That's just an inconsistency I noticed running throughout as it was just simultaneously possible someone could do this because GW left it possible to create custom chapters but also saying how it'd be a bridge too far. Does GW demand these custom chapters be 100% lore compliant? I don't know, I don't play the TTG. I just really like the setting.

Part 3: I think you fundamentally misunderstood what I was saying about the setting being all bad all the time. I merely meant that I think people see their chosen faction as the good guys (unless they're playing as Dark Eldar or Chaos maybe) and tend to forget that all factions are all bad by design. That's all I meant by that. It's the point of the setting.

Part 4: My point behind the lore and fans not really being able to dictate it with anything more than engagement or disengagement is was the point where we were arguing the same thing from different angles. What I mean is no amount of fan screeds, no amount of saying it's not lore compliant, no amount of feeling personally betrayed by GW is going to get them to change lore. I agree it's all wallet based, but I wanted to use terms to make it more general because I don't think the wallet is the end all be all of engagement with work, but clearly it is with entities like GW. Which is part of the problem because you might feel it'd be a personal betrayal X, Y, Z to happen, but if enough people pass the dollary-doos over the counter then does it matter? Vote with your wallet cuts both ways and GW has four decades of sunk-cost-fallacy to bank on. That's just a fact.

Unless the lore is in the public domain then no one but the rights holder of the lore has any real say in how it goes. Again sorry, but it's more me trying to make and indictment of late stage capitalism, because I really do love lore as a concept and rights holding can be a real hamstring on it especially in the late-stage Disneyfied hell hole in which we find ourselves. 

Part 5: Misc. Sisters of Silence clarifications. I know what the Sisters of Silence do. I know what they are. My point in calling them Gold SoBs was to illustrate that I too think they're underserved by GW, but I think it's entirely motivated by sales figures. Sure they have their place in the TTG but if people were buying them up like hotcakes we'd naturally see more support. It was more echoing a common complaint I see from SoS enjoyers as many of them feel they're so overshadowed by the SoB that it's effectively feels like a pallet swap at times.

Part 6: Sisters of Battle literally cannot be as good as space marines when it comes to power armor.  The black carapace is a thing. Inquisitors and some commissars wear it too, but lore says without the carapace you just don't move as good in it. I'd probably argue the SoB are more powerful in other ways sure. Emperor's own demon-prince Celestine and all is cool, but they are not fighting in power armor in the same ways as their transhuman sometimes allies.

Also If Big E could have brought more custodes with him to fight Horus on the Vengeful Spirt he would have. He was baited into hurrying so he brought some, but even if he went to redeem Horus he would have brought more if he could. It wasn't some arbitrary decision he made. It was him thinking he had to act fast, or some other authorial reasoning. I'm not going to get too in the weeds on that.

So in conclusion, and the whole point I guess I was trying to make is you can't in one breath say the lore says no female custodes and say lore matters, and then in the next say the lore doesn't matter because you don't like female custodes. You might have issues with how it was done. I have issues with how it was done, but where was you say, "No way." I say, "I wonder how they'll make this work." And maybe they won't make it work, but you miss all the shots you don't take.

The thing about a lore as big as 40K is that it has to stay flexible, some people have to have things neat and tidy and explained all the time. I get that, but if it becomes too ridged through codification it becomes stale and unable to resonate with new people and then it dies off.

Yeah, this is the short version.

[Andol]

You're lying to yourself if you think that there wouldn't be people who would nasty-comment me away from the table. So why would I a potential customer pay that much money and spend that much time to not be able to play and then get ridiculed at best for trying? Then you're kind of in some doublethink. Here you illustrate that it's possible for someone to that, but it matters that they don't, or at least that GW doesn't. It matters so much it would ruin your enjoyment of the whole setting. You simultaneously illustrate that the setting both can and cannot support the thing at the same time. That's not good.

That sounds like playing the Table Top game with grown people who act like little children. Who the fuck wants to do that. I play with people who act like adults. My models are expensive and if you think I am setting them down across from some punk who wants to be a dick to other people in a shop... yeah. 

Sure there may be a few people who act like that, but guess what you do. You report them to the shop owner and then everyone usually agrees said person was being a dick to you and they get shadow banned so fast because no one will play with them. Heck I am planning on building straight felind, anthro cat abhumans who are canon in 40k lore, guard army one day. By taking regular guard and sticking cat people heads on all of them... well more 40k grim style, but you get the idea. 

The guys think it is a little cringe, but they don't care... it is my models... and are actually excited to see what it looks like when it is finished. I have never once said I care what other's do with their own models as generally people don't and believe I know quite a few heavy handed gate keepers and even they don't. You have put words in my mouth. I said I don't like the changes to the lore. What people do with their own models and what they call their own fan-canon is different so long as they don't ask me to call it canon.

Also doublethink only applies here if the conditions of people chasing you out of a game store happen. Yeah like when is that happening... hardly at all. Bro... no one is going to chase you out of a game store over custom minis. Relax. The internet makes the worse of the dicks seem like a majority of a hobby that is full to my experience by a bunch married dudes and chill neckbeards who are super welcoming to any new person. To be fair they will probably like the idea because 3d printing sticks it to GW. Oddly for a fanbase... we really really really hate the company as much as they like it from what I see from 40k players. It is just strange sometimes.

In fact you would probably make a bunch of friends if you did the models with a 3d printer and probably make a ton of cash. People are undercutting GW left right and center when they can these days to customize their models.   

That's just an inconsistency I noticed running throughout as it was just simultaneously possible someone could do this because GW left it possible to create custom chapters but also saying how it'd be a bridge too far. Does GW demand these custom chapters be 100% lore compliant? I don't know, I don't play the TTG. I just really like the setting.

Currently most Marine Chapters take their rules from the same codex and use the same set of 'Detachment' rules as they are called. So you can paint them to be your custom legion and then say they are running like 'The Firestorm Detachment'.

Any details about them where expunged from Imperial Record. So there is nothing there to be 'lore breaking'. That is why you could make up a wild story about your fan-fiction marines being an all female legion with a female primarch. No one will care in casual games and will probably actually be really curious about how you did the custom design work. 

I mean I know I would. I am known at the FLGS for being the guy who loves big muscle mommies and wifus and such. Heck I am trying to get into Daugthers of Khaine in Sigmar XD 

Part 3: I think you fundamentally misunderstood what I was saying about the setting being all bad all the time. I merely meant that I think people see their chosen faction as the good guys (unless they're playing as Dark Eldar or Chaos maybe) and tend to forget that all factions are all bad by design. That's all I meant by that. It's the point of the setting.

I think it is more that when playing on the Table Top me and the guys really don't want to think of anything negative like that my guy. We are just having fun. Heck my main faction is World Eaters... I like them because I feel bad for Angron who I feel that was the Primarch most fucked over by the Emperor. Plus they are just cool. The most important thing is that on the Table Top they fit my play style so that is the biggest thing.

Part 5: Misc. Sisters of Silence clarifications. I know what the Sisters of Silence do. I know what they are. My point in calling them Gold SoBs was to illustrate that I too think they're underserved by GW, but I think it's entirely motivated by sales figures. Sure they have their place in the TTG but if people were buying them up like hotcakes we'd naturally see more support. It was more echoing a common complaint I see from SoS enjoyers as many of them feel they're so overshadowed by the SoB that it's effectively feels like a pallet swap at times.

No that is just semantics... the two are different enough lore wise that one doesn't overshadow the other in that area. The biggest problem is on the table top and that the SoS are part of a faction and not a faction by themselves. However they do need their range expanded just like GW expanded the range of the Kroot recently for the Tau. Which is a 'side' army. They made it possible to build a Kroot only army now, but still have not done the same for SoS... and the SoB have nothing to do with that.

Part 6: Sisters of Battle literally cannot be as good as space marines when it comes to power armor.  The black carapace is a thing. Inquisitors and some commissars wear it too, but lore says without the carapace you just don't move as good in it. I'd probably argue the SoB are more powerful in other ways sure. Emperor's own demon-prince Celestine and all is cool, but they are not fighting in power armor in the same ways as their transhuman sometimes allies.

Who said anything about power armor. No I mean Sisters are better because of sheer numbers, they have their miracle abilities. Plus they have the Living Saints. I mean you do know back during the reign of blood before they became the sisters they fought the space Marines to a stand still on Terra before the Custodes told them to shut up... and the Emperor had a little talk with Ophelia... XD... Gosh I love those girls in power armor.

So in conclusion, and the whole point I guess I was trying to make is you can't in one breath say the lore says no female custodes and say lore matters, and then in the next say the lore doesn't matter because you don't like female custodes. You might have issues with how it was done. I have issues with how it was done, but where was you say, "No way." I say, "I wonder how they'll make this work." And maybe they won't make it work, but you miss all the shots you don't take.

Inkidu... I was trying to make a point to you about your own thought process and to be honest I am not the best at trying to word the things so I will try again. I wasn't talking about how I felt about the situation. I am sticking with the lore hasn't mentioned the female Custodes before and that is why they shouldn't be around given that it has mentioned the group as being made up 'men' and never once as a group that is not gendered in how it is 'mentioned. Period.



What I was saying in that last paragraph is that your logic is one that if followed to its conclusion leaves no reason to invest emotionally in a world. Because if GW 'as you say' changes it around willy nilly and they won't follow any rules and just throw things around. Then what is the point. It shows they care silly for the fans or what the fans have invested themselves in when it comes to the setting leaving I know for myself little reason to trust that they are not going to take the World Eaters or Sister of Battle and do stupid shit with their lore that does make sense.

Note what I am saying that is what you are implying here based on my reading of your post. Correct me if I am wrong. Sorry in advance.

I think a big different in our thought process already comes from you have zero investment in the table top, which is totally cool. 40k is great in that you can love it and engage with it in different ways. What I do have to say is believe me when you have put the years into models I have... these changes hit different. They make you throw up your hands in frustration. Yes I get someone who likes the lore and doesn't do the models can feel that way, but man is it worse when you are doing both.

[MiaKage]

Heck I am planning on building straight felind, anthro cat abhumans who are canon in 40k lore, guard army one day

I've been looking at doing the same thing! There's someone on Etsy that makes them.

https://www.etsy.com/shop/ResinMunitorum?ref=related&listing_id=1050884224&section_id=35231800

[greenknight]

Oh and no the change from Rogue Trader to 40k isn't a retcon as the base lore wasn't codified in the way we know it at the time.

Got it, moving the goalposts. Conversation's done.

[Andol]

Got it, moving the goalposts. Conversation's done.

Yeah I answered what you said as you hardly gave me anything with which to engage in good faith. You can incorrectly call what I said moving the goalpost if that makes you feel better, but it doesn't make it less true bud. What we can agree that the conversation is done.

I've been looking at doing the same thing! There's someone on Etsy that makes them.

https://www.etsy.com/shop/ResinMunitorum?ref=related&listing_id=1050884224&section_id=35231800

Oh that is awesome thanks for the help my dude. Will have to save this for when I get some money and time to start putting to work on that guard list. Need to finish up the last of my World Eater force first.

[Oniya]

PROC is down the hall about three doors.

Honestly, this kind of nit-picking is the sort of thing that drives people away from games/systems/media products, regardless of which side you're on.

[Andol]

Honestly, this kind of nit-picking is the sort of thing that drives people away from games/systems/media products, regardless of which side you're on.

I mean for me deep diving talks is why I wake up in the morning to talk about my favorite hobbies. It is all in good fun so long as everyone just remains chill. :D I mean this is my hobby... it is something I unwind over when I talk about or when I play. 

[Inkidu]

PROC is down the hall about three doors.

Honestly, this kind of nit-picking is the sort of thing that drives people away from games/systems/media products, regardless of which side you're on.

I really tried not to be nit-picky with this and as someone who vehemently doesn't like gatekeeping I hope my stance didn't scare anyone away from picking up the setting. But I'm going to see myself out of this thread. I'd rather not talk about it at all than scare people away.

[Andol]

I really tried not to be nit-picky with this and as someone who vehemently doesn't like gatekeeping I hope my stance didn't scare anyone away from picking up the setting. But I'm going to see myself out of this thread. I'd rather not talk about it at all than scare people away.

Going to follow Inkidu's example on this one and dropping this hot button topic as well to not create any more negative vibes from my end. Warhammer is about fun and yeah... talking about the setting in this manner is unfun.