Moving the Winter Olympics...

[Imogen]

Twas a generalization. :) Stereotypes and all that jazz. Some people do it, but it's rare. :)

Oh, good! I am really too lazy to start sharpening pitchforks to chase the next American tourist out of town ;-)

[Rogue]

I have nothing against Americans. You lot are amazing people but I know there is many people treating Americans as arogant and all, which is mostly to blame for some politicians.

Now as to what Putin did for the Russians. Basically a lot. Putin (and Medvedev) raised the Russian GDP every consecutive year, he had lifted Russia from the 3rd world into modern world leading nation.

A lot of Russians have work again, a lot of Russians have more money than they ever had. Putin's also trying to protect the Russian heritage, perhaps a bit too strong but the reason that he was re-elected isn't due to fraude, it's because he is that popular in Russia, because it's going very in Russia.

Okay, but that's not the point. The point is, why are you taking it personally when someone's criticizing a leader who, while has brought the country from 3rd world status to World Leader status (which I don't think Russia ever lost that status seeing as it was definitely a main part of the Cold War and being a threat that big means you have to have some amount of status), still supports blatant censorship of it's people when that's one of the things most Americans take severe offense to no matter where it is? I mean, people criticize world leaders all the time. Why are you taking it personally?

Oh, good! I am really too lazy to start sharpening pitchforks to chase the next American tourist out of town ;-)

Oh please don't! Well some American tourists are assholes, but don't chase out the nice ones! ((Because believe me... I've wanted to chase out some asshole tourists before... *lives in an international tourist town as well*))

[Dashenka]

Okay, but that's not the point. The point is, why are you taking it personally when someone's criticizing a leader who, while has brought the country from 3rd world status to World Leader status (which I don't think Russia ever lost that status seeing as it was definitely a main part of the Cold War and being a threat that big means you have to have some amount of status), still supports blatant censorship of it's people when that's one of the things most Americans take severe offense to no matter where it is? I mean, people criticize world leaders all the time. Why are you taking it personally?

Oh please don't! Well some American tourists are assholes, but don't chase out the nice ones! ((Because believe me... I've wanted to chase out some asshole tourists before... *lives in an international tourist town as well*))

I'm not that THAT personally. When people say that there is something wrong with the Russian mentality though, I feel offended. Not because I take it personal, but because people are judging Russia while they know very little to nothing about it.

[Rogue]

I'm not that THAT personally. When people say that there is something wrong with the Russian mentality though, I feel offended. Not because I take it personal, but because people are judging Russia while they know very little to nothing about it.

Ah. Well, the amount of apparent closed-mindedness in general is scary. :( It might be because most of the people in this thread don't like closed mindedness in general and, yeah, we're generalizing. But it's also based on the concept that most Russians don't seem to like something that doesn't seem normal to them. Which was supported by the apparently lost in translation quote made by the Russian athlete.

[Dashenka]

I understand that people don't agree with a law the Russian government implements. Putin's a big man he can do without me protecting him. But if people call Russia dangerous and the Russian mentality wrong and idiotic, then I get offended because I am Russian.

Also...

For all of your not caring what others think you care a lot more about your family's opinion than I do. You see, while I respect my girlfriend's grandparents, and they aren't just going to go away, they don't approve of us getting married or even being together. Does that mean I'm going to sacrifice my happiness so I don't tread on their beliefs? No. Not really. I mean, heterosexual couples do it all the time. The dad doesn't approve of the relationship for this and this reason and the daughter is just like, no your reasons are stupid and you can either be in my life or not. Maybe this is an american thing. Perhaps not. But even so, I don't think it's right to tippy toe around your personal happiness for the happiness of others.

Also: GOD DAMN IT WHY DIDN'T I THINK OF THE APARTHEID! *Grumbles* knew there was a historical circumstance I could have used to make my point.....

One: I love my grandparents more than my own pride. If they cannot accept me, I can swallow my pride and enjoy the few years they have left on this planet in peace and love with them.

And why you didn't think of Apartheid... because it's completely different. It was a different country and a different time. :)

[Rogue]

I understand that people don't agree with a law the Russian government implements. Putin's a big man he can do without me protecting him. But if people call Russia dangerous and the Russian mentality wrong and idiotic, then I get offended because I am Russian.

Also...

One: I love my grandparents more than my own pride. If they cannot accept me, I can swallow my pride and enjoy the few years they have left on this planet in peace and love with them.

And why you didn't think of Apartheid... because it's completely different. It was a different country and a different time. :)

But it's a similar situation, different people being oppressed. So relevant in the point I'd wanted to have.

I have younger grandparents so me swallowing my pride is me having 20 years of not being married... not just a few. >.>

Also, you think Russia is dangerous too... that's why you moved I thought... And when little acts I might not even think of could get me in trouble (such as holding my girlfriend's hand) or even worse, beat up (Because I have to deal with that enough in the US) I want to at least know I'll have the police on my side. :)

[Deamonbane]

Yeah.  Brazil's human rights record is dodgy and the Summer ones are still going there.

I'm sorry I had to comment on this...

Okay yes, Brazil had some issues with Human rights in the past, about 30 years ago if memory serves, and they are still hunting down those responsible and putting them behind bars as we speak... But thirty years is a long time.

It would be like changing the South African FIFA World Cup because of the Apartheid. Or not allowing sports events in Germany because of Hitler. Or not allowing sports events in the US because of their poor treatment in the past of the American Indians. Or hell, not allowing anything to happen in Europe because of the Dark Ages.

[Dashenka]

Also, you think Russia is dangerous too... that's why you moved I thought... And when little acts I might not even think of could get me in trouble (such as holding my girlfriend's hand) or even worse, beat up (Because I have to deal with that enough in the US) I want to at least know I'll have the police on my side. :)

Not as such. This law was implemented after I left but it was on the table for a while. Other reasons why I left is the censoring of the press and television and a think called urbanization.

Moscow (and other major cities in Russia) are exploding because of the found wealth. People are leaving the small dreary villages and all move to Moscow causing a lot of problems. The system isn't going fast enough to keep up. There isn't enough police, there aren't enough hospitals, traffic is a bitch.

And then there are these places called Chechnya and Dagestan. One nearly blew me up in the subway, the other nearly killed my girlfriend in the airport. That for me was my queue to leave. At first alone but I soon got my girlfriend into the UK legally.

I wouldn't go as far as calling it unsafe but there are areas of the city where you shouldn't go out at night.

[lilhobbit37]

But if people call Russia dangerous and the Russian mentality wrong and idiotic, then I get offended because I am Russian.

Yet that is exactly what the russian government is doing to an entire group of people: homosexuals. They are being treated as dangerous and their mentality wrong. And us getting offend because of that is no different.

[Dashenka]

Yet that is exactly what the russian government is doing to an entire group of people: homosexuals. They are being treated as dangerous and their mentality wrong. And us getting offend because of that is no different.

No. I'll explain again... the vast majority of the Russians think that homosexuality isn't okay. All the Russian government has done, was to make a law to protect a) Russia's youth and b) the homosexuals themself.

Although that's probably hard to understand.

[lilhobbit37]

They did neither. To say they protected the youth is to insinuate that gays are dangerous, and the law doesn't protect homosexuals, it criminalizes them.

But I wasn't speaking of the law I saw speaking to the fact that just as you have a right to feel offended at peoples view of russia, lgbt's and their supporters have a right to be offended by this view from russians

[Dashenka]

They did neither. To say they protected the youth is to insinuate that gays are dangerous, and the law doesn't protect homosexuals, it criminalizes them.

But I wasn't speaking of the law I saw speaking to the fact that just as you have a right to feel offended at peoples view of russia, lgbt's and their supporters have a right to be offended by this view from russians

Well homosexuals have the choice. A) Stick by the rules and live your life merrily, or B) break the law and not only risk getting arrested but also risk getting molested or murdered. Being gay isn't viewed as dangerous, just as unwanted and wrong behaviour.

I don't feel offended by people disagreeing with the way most Russians think about homosexuality, I feel offended by people saying that Russians are idiots and what not because they don't agree with homosexuality.

[Rogue]

Well homosexuals have the choice. A) Stick by the rules and live your life merrily, or B) break the law and not only risk getting arrested but also risk getting molested or murdered. Being gay isn't viewed as dangerous, just as unwanted and wrong behaviour.

I don't feel offended by people disagreeing with the way most Russians think about homosexuality, I feel offended by people saying that Russians are idiots and what not because they don't agree with homosexuality.

I don't think that it's been said once that people think Russians are idiots for being homophobic. I think people may have said that homophobic people are idiots... which is a universal thing, not limited to Russians. And I'm sure some Russians aren't homophobic. And those people aren't idiots because they don't fall under the Homophobic people are idiots rule.

It all falls under the logic that people who are closedminded tend to be idiots. People who are homophobic tend to be closed minded. Homophobic people tend to be idiots. :)

[Dashenka]

Which is why we shouldn't care so much what others think. Straight, gay or transsexual. Who cares what people about you?

[Rogue]

Which is why we shouldn't care so much what others think. Straight, gay or transsexual. Who cares what people about you?

Because we should at least try to make the world more intelligent for our children. And because some of these people have control over laws and who gets elected to make the laws so... Need to make sure intelligent choices are being made. *nods*

[Iniquitous]

Which is why we shouldn't care so much what others think. Straight, gay or transsexual. Who cares what people about you?

I really cannot tell if you are just arguing for the sake of arguing or if you just do not realize what you are saying. What offends me about this law and the Russian mentality is that it is not a matter of what people think about gays. This is a law that criminalizes a person for who they are. You say obey the law and live merrily... but the law demands that they hide who they are else they be thrown in jail, beaten or murdered. I cannot grasp how you even think this is the slightest bit okay. The whole 'don't care what other people think about you' would be something like don't care if people think you are fat. Or ugly. Or stupid. Or poor. Or uncouth.

The more I read this thread and see you defending this law, the more I think that you are doing so solely because you feel you have to defend your birth country. It really is the only thing that makes any sense to me.

[Valthazar]

I really cannot tell if you are just arguing for the sake of arguing or if you just do not realize what you are saying. What offends me about this law and the Russian mentality is that it is not a matter of what people think about gays. This is a law that criminalizes a person for who they are. You say obey the law and live merrily... but the law demands that they hide who they are else they be thrown in jail, beaten or murdered. I cannot grasp how you even think this is the slightest bit okay. The whole 'don't care what other people think about you' would be something like don't care if people think you are fat. Or ugly. Or stupid. Or poor. Or uncouth.

The more I read this thread and see you defending this law, the more I think that you are doing so solely because you feel you have to defend your birth country. It really is the only thing that makes any sense to me.

Try to understand the basis for the ideology Dashenka is putting forth.  I'm certainly not Russian.

There are thousands of human rights violations around the world, that go against our moral code of ethics, as Americans.  We simply cannot, and perhaps more importantly, don't have the legal or moral authority to coerce other free-thinking, autonomous minds to think like us.  We want to live in a free society, that guarantees Constitutional rights to every human being, and the freedom to love whomever one wants.  But those moral and ethical decisions are specific to the United States borders.  We made the choice to embrace those values as a country - and we expanded gay rights when enough people in this nation were able to overcome their biases, and feel ready to embrace that community as equals.  Russia needs to go through that same process, and modify their laws as needed to overcome these biases - if indeed their citizenry wants to embrace it (because clearly the majority does not).

As an unrelated point, why is it that we are unable to project our moral values into ending other severe human rights violations around the globe, such as the treatment of women in the middle east, or child laborers in Asia?  It's because we simply don't have the legal authority to coerce other governments to change their laws to mimic our values. 

Bolivia has no "legal" age of consent, only informally defined as after puberty.  I find this horrific and disgusting - and clearly it goes against our moral ethics - but I have to simply accept that their country wants to make their laws differently than ours.

[Oniya]

Actually, in those cases, the appeal is made to the 'big box' companies who exploit those workers, so it doesn't make the news stations the way 'interfering' with a major sporting event does.

[Cyrano Johnson]

Bolivia has no "legal" age of consent, only informally defined as after puberty.

This actually is false. Bolivia's age of consent laws differ from North American norms, but are certainly not unrestricted or even particularly vague. In general, age of consent laws in most countries are designed to shield minors from potential predators of higher age brackets, for very obvious reasons.

Likewise there are international legal standards -- which are enshrined in Russia's constitution and endorsed by international treaties to which the country is signatory -- against discriminating against groups in the way this law does. All this vague "it's just their custom" bullshit is dancing around this quite inarguable fact.

I have to agree with Iniquitous on this one. Dashenka seems bent on defending Russia's national honor come what may and regardless of fact or moral implications, to the point of indulging either in self-hatred or outright dishonesty or both. It's not okay.

[Dashenka]

I really cannot tell if you are just arguing for the sake of arguing or if you just do not realize what you are saying. What offends me about this law and the Russian mentality is that it is not a matter of what people think about gays. This is a law that criminalizes a person for who they are. You say obey the law and live merrily... but the law demands that they hide who they are else they be thrown in jail, beaten or murdered. I cannot grasp how you even think this is the slightest bit okay. The whole 'don't care what other people think about you' would be something like don't care if people think you are fat. Or ugly. Or stupid. Or poor. Or uncouth.

The more I read this thread and see you defending this law, the more I think that you are doing so solely because you feel you have to defend your birth country. It really is the only thing that makes any sense to me.

From the beginning on I have always said that I do not agree with this law. Russia doesn't need my defence. I just don't understand how people half way around the world can feel offended by a law they have nothing to do with.

Does the world feel offended by the fact that the Netherlands legalized soft drugs and allows prostitution? Is the world offended by big companies moving to India for cheaper labour? Is the world offended by Israel oppressing Palestinians?

So why would you, living in the US, feel offended by a law in a country 8000 miles away that doesn't impact you in the slightest.


For the gay people in Russia, not much has changed because although legal, it was just dangerous to show you were gay out in the open. The only thing that changed is that it's made illegal now and the Olympics. Had this law been implemented AFTER the Olympics. Nobody would have cared or even known about it.

The law's the law. You have to stick to it, or leave the country. No matter how offended people are by it, it won't change. No matter how much demonstrations or pressure there will be, the law won't change.

[Imogen]

Does the world feel offended by the fact that the Netherlands legalized soft drugs and allows prostitution?

Saves a lot of hassle looking for em. The sign on the door says 'coffee shop'. If you want coffee, there's Bagels & Beans, V&D and Tea Rooms. Not coffee shops. But I'm fairly sure that's a seperate topic in all the Amsterdam guides.

[Dashenka]

I know that, I've lived there for 4 years but that wasn't the question :) Although it would be hilarious if V&D would start selling soft drugs :)

[Cyrano Johnson]

Russia doesn't need my defence.

You're not behaving like someone who really believes that, I hate to break it to you.

For example, you've been attempting a fog of false and stupid equivalencies since this conversation started:

Does the world feel offended by the fact that the Netherlands legalized soft drugs and allows prostitution?

Since this oppresses nobody: no. Stupid comparison, was so the first time you attempted it and the twentieth time you attempted it, just as stupid now.

Is the world offended by big companies moving to India for cheaper labour?

Sometimes. Also nothing to do with what we're talking about.

Is the world offended by Israel oppressing Palestinians?

Yes, actually. And funnily enough, Israelis try the "look! over there!" tactic when they're called on it, too. And it's just as stupid when they do it as when you try it.

Look: stop. Just stop. Anyone who was a real friend to you at this moment would tell you that you are officially making an ass of yourself and have been for some time. You seem to think you're going to dig your way out by just repeating the same bullshit over and over until it sticks, and you aren't.

[Dashenka]

I know your opinion and I hate to break it you, but I really don't care.

You go ahead, demonstrate and protest all you want it won't change anything in Russia. I'm going to continue this discussion/conversation with people who actually try to understand the point I'm trying to make and not just react bitter and begrudged for no apparent reason.

[Cyrano Johnson]

I know your opinion and I hate to break it you, but I really don't care.

Well, it's your life.