Chemtrails vs. Contrails

[Oniya]

Okay, I'm not sure if this belongs here or in Elliquiy U, so I'm hedging my bets.  Recently, I've been seeing some unsubstantiated scare-mongering about how those 'white lines in the sky' are indications of the government spraying us with experimental 'stuff', with the possibilities ranging from chemical/pesticide-type agents to biological agents (like SARS).  I'm going to say it up front:  I think this is bollocks.  I grew up in a fairly active air-travel area (outside DC), and we saw these things all the time and knew them to be condensation trails, caused when either a) water released during the combustion process of jet fuel condensed almost instantly, or b) solid products of combustion created nuclei for microscopic water droplets to condense onto, forming essentially 'linear clouds'.

In response to this explanation, I was hit with: 'cloud vapors do not sit there for hours. the sky above us is cross hatched sometimes literally no space between the whole mile by mile grid. this is not water vapor. look at films and photos. water vapor disappears after a few minutes this is often there for hours or all day.' and a sourceless expose'-style missive:

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide

A meeting has taken place recently between an investigative researcher and a well placed military source. The identity of both parties is to be protected. The source has intimate knowledge of at least one aspect of the aerosol operations, and asserts the following:

1. The operation is a joint project between the Pentagon and the pharmaceutical industry.

2. The Pentagon wishes to test biological diseases for war purposes on unsuspecting populations. It was stated that SARS is a failure as the expected rate of mortality was intended to be 80%.

3. The pharmaceutical industry is making trillions on medications designed to treat both fatal and non-fatal diseases given to populations.

4. The bacteria and viruses are freeze-dried and then placed on fine filaments for release.

5. The metals released along with the diseases heat up from the sun, creating a perfect environment for the bacteria and viruses to thrive in the air supply.

6. Most countries being sprayed are unaware of the activities and they have not consented to the activities. He states that commercial aircraft flying are one of the delivery systems.

7. Most of the "players" are old friends and business partners of the senior Bush.

8. The ultimate goal is the control of all populations through directed and accurate spraying of drugs, diseases, etc.

9. People who have tried to reveal the truth have been imprisoned and killed.

10. This is the most dangerous and dark time that I have experienced in all of my years of serving this country.

This information is relayed without qualification, as I am knowledgeable in the level of integrity of the researcher that has made this information available to the public. There is both risk and restraint that has been exercised in the preparation of this statement.

As people are generally pretty good here about taking the time to research, and looking for legitimate sources, I'd like to hear other people's views on this - both sides, if there's anyone with credible information to give.

[Torch]

  I think this is bollocks.  I grew up in a fairly active air-travel area (outside DC), and we saw these things all the time and knew them to be condensation trails, caused when either a) water released during the combustion process of jet fuel condensed almost instantly, or b) solid products of combustion created nuclei for microscopic water droplets to condense onto, forming essentially 'linear clouds'.

Although I love a good imagination as much as anyone else, the fact that people waste time and energy conjuring up a conspiracy theory about something as benign as a vapor trail makes my head hurt.

Of course it's bollocks. Oi.

[Beguile's Mistress]

I live in Pittsburgh where an Air Force base is located and on the flight path between several major airports and/or military bases.  At any given time there can be as many as a dozen or more contrails across the sky.  They will dissipate in half an hour or last as long as several hours depending on what our meteorologists call "the winds aloft."  They consist of ice which is frozen water vapor and due to low temps at that altitude (30,000 feet or more) don't melt.

I also vote bollocks on the conspiracy theorists. 

I recall not too long ago there were stories of unpainted and unmarked tanks moving by rail across the country out of Western Pennsylvania.  This turned out to be an old story based on shipments out of a steel mill where tank bodies were manufactured and shipped to other locations for final assembly and numbering with military identification numbers.  Still, the story persists that they are part of the plot of the Third World Order to take over the planet and are used by the same people who fly the silent black helicopters in the dark of night.

[Torch]

  Still, the story persists that they are part of the plot of the Third World Order to take over the planet and are used by the same people who fly the silent black helicopters in the dark of night.

Yep, and don't forget the "secret codes" on the backs of highway signs telling them which way to go to take over major cities.  ::)

[OldSchoolGamer]

As an amateur meteorologist, I find the whole "chemtrails" thing to be supremely annoying.  But, given the dismal level of science education in America today, I'm not surprised it's gained a foothold in the popular imagination.

[Valerian]

I first heard this tale in... maybe 1999?  It might have been part of the general paranoia about Y2K, though it could just as easily have been general ridiculousness, given that I heard it on the Art Bell show.  (I wasn't listening by choice; my SO at the time liked to listen to the show for a laugh.  In my opinion, the level of ignorance was simply too painful for laughter.)

It was less organized, and good old Art had fewer details, but the gist was the same.  The contrails lasted too long and "didn't look normal".  Just after one particularly odd-looking and long-lasting contrail appeared over his house, his entire family caught some sort of strange flu-like illness.  The military is obviously experimenting with germ warfare!

Why this couldn't have been actual flu that one family member gave to the rest, I don't know -- he pretty much dismissed that possibility, unsurprisingly.  And if you're testing wind vectors, the feasibility of such a delivery system, etc., by using something relatively harmless, which is what he claimed, then there would have been no way for anyone to find out how well the system had worked.  Few people will go to the doctor with a minor illness, so how would they even track where the germs went in any reliable fashion?

Not that logic was ever much a part of the show.  This is the same man who found hints of deep conspiracy in the lyrics to "These Boots are Made for Walking".   ::)

[Callie Del Noire]

Okay.. you know I've worked on several different models of jets (and have been drafted to help pull engines from a few more).

there are no damn 'filament dispersal arrays' in the damn engines. You pull out the HUGE F-14 or F-18 engines you will see that is true.

You can't expect it to work.. because.. high altitude dispersal will effect elements HUNDREDS of miles away and without an accurate of idea of how far it will disperse. And a fun note.. winds up there are REALLY fast and you can't accurately spread any of the things listed without overblow.

[Oniya]

I live in Pittsburgh where an Air Force base is located and on the flight path between several major airports and/or military bases.  At any given time there can be as many as a dozen or more contrails across the sky.  They will dissipate in half an hour or last as long as several hours depending on what our meteorologists call "the winds aloft."  They consist of ice which is frozen water vapor and due to low temps at that altitude (30,000 feet or more) don't melt.

Oooh - found a nifty site while trying to look up how long cirrus clouds last (since those are also ice-crystal clouds):  http://contrailscience.com/  Nicely explains the grid patterns with a Java app (two crossing high-traffic routes plus a strong upper-atmosphere wind), has pictures of massive amounts of contrails back in the 60's (which should go a long way if I can get a moderately firm date of when this 'chemical spraying' thing started) and reports dating back to 1921, as well as illustrations of how many more air-traffic routes there are over the US now than ever - even compared to the 1980's.

[Oniya]

Okay.. you know I've worked on several different models of jets (and have been drafted to help pull engines from a few more).

there are no damn 'filament dispersal arrays' in the damn engines. You pull out the HUGE F-14 or F-18 engines you will see that is true.

You can't expect it to work.. because.. high altitude dispersal will effect elements HUNDREDS of miles away and without an accurate of idea of how far it will disperse. And a fun note.. winds up there are REALLY fast and you can't accurately spread any of the things listed without overblow.

Was actually hoping you'd weigh in.  I'm suspecting that the writer of the expose' thing had about as much military experience and/or connection to the military as the little Oni (who has a veteran for a grandfather who never talks about his service).

[Scribbles]

Oniya, if the new evidence you found doesn't help to convince your conspiracy theorists then there's really only one thing you can do, sell Anti-Experimental-Stuff helmets!  :-)

[Oniya]

I know, right?  But where am I going to get a good source of tinfoil in bulk?  (Of course, I'm sure the response will be that the author of that site is in cahoots with the Black Helicopter People.)

[Callie Del Noire]

Was actually hoping you'd weigh in.  I'm suspecting that the writer of the expose' thing had about as much military experience and/or connection to the military as the little Oni (who has a veteran for a grandfather who never talks about his service).

Well lets see.. you are venting chemicals out the exhaust of a high performance jet engine? Very few bacteria survive the utter cold of that altitude (I've see iced wings/engine cowlings from planes come down from high altitude fast), and even fewer like going from the heat of the jet exhuast to cold. Chemicals do funky things at both extremes (but you should talk to a chemist about complex organic chemicals) and don't like extremes either.

I've gotten 2nd degree burns AND lost eye brows (and other bits of hair) from jetwash.. venting from the exhaust of a jet.. nah.. can't work.

[TheGlyphstone]

Clearly, Callie has already been subverted by the NWO's mind-controlling rays, and forced to spread disinformation. ;D

[Oniya]

Clearly, Callie has already been subverted by the NWO's mind-controlling rays, and forced to spread disinformation. ;D

I'll believe that when he starts heading his posts 'Wolfpack in da HOUSE!'  *snicker*

[Revolverman]

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Chemtrail

All you might wana read.

[TheGlyphstone]

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Chemtrail

All you might wana read.

Oh, that is golden. I am going to have a fun few hours reading that wiki.

[Oniya]

I'll probably read more of that site, but I think the snark is too thick to make a convincing counter-argument.

[TheGlyphstone]

Yeah, but the snark is what makes it entertaining.

[Oniya]

Which is why I'll be going back.  ;D

[Callie Del Noire]

I'll believe that when he starts heading his posts 'Wolfpack in da HOUSE!'  *snicker*

Uh.. wrong member of the family.. I'm not the NC State alumni of the family.

[Revolverman]

Oh, anyone of a strong religious belief might wana stay clear of that site.


It's... aggressively atheistic, in the vain of Richard Dawkins, to say the least.

[Oniya]

Uh.. wrong member of the family.. I'm not the NC State alumni of the family.

Actually, a professional wrestling reference.  I watch it for the spandex.  ;)

[Callie Del Noire]

Actually, a professional wrestling reference.  I watch it for the spandex.  ;)

Sorry..haven't since the death of Andre the Giant. :D

[Oniya]

You can't expect it to work.. because.. high altitude dispersal will effect elements HUNDREDS of miles away and without an accurate of idea of how far it will disperse. And a fun note.. winds up there are REALLY fast and you can't accurately spread any of the things listed without overblow.

Found this while sating my curiosity:

http://www.geology.sdsu.edu/how_volcanoes_work/Krakatau.html
"Tephra from the eruption of Krakatoa fell as far as 2,500 km downwind in the days following the eruption. However, the finest fragments were propelled high into the stratosphere, spreading outward as a broad cloud across the entire equatorial belt in only two weeks. These particles would remain suspended in the atmosphere for years, propagating farther to the north and south before finally dissipating."

I'm betting even those 'finest fragments' are larger than the so-called 'filaments'.  They're certainly bigger than bacteria.

[Revolverman]

Never mind flying about dummy planes disguised as Commercial flights (or the even more insane theory that normal flights are doing this) would be so frightful difficult to do with no one noticing, never mind expensive for something that seems to be done just for the Evulz.

[Ramster]

Everyone knows that The Powers That Be have infinite funds for projects done purely for the evulz.

That's why Oni's not the first to come up with selling protective headgear that makes one immune to the arguments of anyone that's part of the conspiracy. That means all us naysayers in here, sheeple!

Get your anti-abduction helmet today:

http://www.stopabductions.com

Other shielding material was tried in previous models with less success. Only thought screen helmets using Velostat are effective!

[Oniya]

Never mind flying about dummy planes disguised as Commercial flights (or the even more insane theory that normal flights are doing this) would be so frightful difficult to do with no one noticing, never mind expensive for something that seems to be done just for the Evulz.

One of the sites I hit up yesterday remarked that there are photos of planes with 'suspicious looking tanks in them'.  These have naturally been 'exposed' as these phantom chemicals/biologicals (despite the absence of a single caution sticker).  Real reason?  Passenger simulations.  It's easier (and safer, and less costly if there's an accident) to use tanks of water to simulate various passenger weight distributions, rather than swapping out different-weighted dummies or actual people.

Another one that I found highly amusing was a news broadcast that claimed that the Germans 'admitted' to spraying stuff out of planes during WWII.  Uuuunfortunately, if you go with a real translation, the word Dueppel (can't find my umlaut at this hour) means 'chaff' or radar interference material (close cousin of Doppel, I suspect) and not 'chemtrail' (which, oddly enough, translates as 'Chemtrail', or something else with Chemik in it.)

I still haven't gotten a response from my vict- erm - 'the kind person who's trying to alert me to the dangers of government spraying' - about when the program started.  I've got pics from the 1920's for when that happens.

[Shjade]

My favorite bit on the rational wiki entry has to be the explanation of "Black Rays."

Oh silly people and their lack of understanding about shadows.

[Oniya]

Today, on the same person's page:   'question everything, and if this applies to you, quit giving other people shit for questioning anything :) '

Still no answer to my questions about temperature extremes, high altitude accuracy, and when it started.  *whistles innocently*

I'm giving it another day, and then I'm posting the link to the 'contrail science' Java app that shows the grid forming.  This is one situation where the silence is speaking volumes.

[Will]

Obviously the government is in the process of administering toxic chemical agents to the population via fighter jet and commercial airline.  That's probably the most efficient, cost-effective method, right?

They want to make us sick, so we'll be weakened and unable to resist when they make their move and herd us into the clandestine FEMA camps.  For the extermination, of course.

OPEN YOUR EYES !!

[Oniya]

OPEN YOUR EYES !!

I said I was willing to listen to both sides, provided that credible arguments could be made.  Sources would be extra nice (again, credible.  Scans of the Weekly World News before they went 'all digital' are not credible).  I have a friend who once made a credible argument in high school (for a unit on propaganda) that all life on Earth came from Mars - entertainment value of an argument can be a plus point.  Old, tired arguments can get points taken off.

;D

Carry on!

[Will]

The idea that Earth was inadvertently seeded with life from elsewhere is a lot more credible than the chemtrails BS.

[TheGlyphstone]

OPEN YOUR EYES !!

You're one of them, aren't you? Everyone knows that the compliance rays are administered visually through electronic billboards and reality TV; the wider open your eyes, the more exposure you get, so it's better to squint at everything.

[Oniya]

You're one of them, aren't you? Everyone knows that the compliance rays are administered visually through electronic billboards and reality TV; the wider open your eyes, the more exposure you get, so it's better to squint at everything.

Dude, sunglasses.

I'm here to chew bubblegum...

[Trieste]

*ears tingle at the mention of 'organic chemicals'*

They say that truth is stranger than fiction, but it's also a lot simpler. All the reports of the DOD experiments on the US population have involved things like adding components to public drinking water, directly spraying pathogens on the population with a method akin to crop dusting, and releasing pathogens in subway systems.

In all that I've read, however, the most commonly utilized unwilling or uninformed population in experimentation has been US Military personnel rather than the public at large. The military has quite a bit of control over its enlisted forces, and they have little recourse.

Crap like the chemtrails conspiracy makes it more difficult to talk about unethical experimentation in the US without being dismissed as a crackpot. It makes anyone who is concerned with chasing down an unethical practice sound like they should be wearing a tinfoil hat.

Now someone needs to suggest that the government started and spread the chemtrails theory to take legitimacy away from valid complaints about government abuse. ::)

Clouds and cloud systems can be persistent - hasn't anyone propagating this theory ever seen a hurricane? You can go to the satellite pages and watch the massive cloud systems roll off of Africa, across the lower Atlantic, and form up into tropical storms and hurricanes. I did it all the time when I was in a high risk area.

Volatile organic solvents tend to have a depressed boiling point - it's one of the qualities that make organic chemicals so useful in research and spectroscopy. They would be volatilized by the jet engine and the fumes would rise, not sink.

High heat also denatures proteins. If you've ever scrambled an egg, you can watch protein denaturation in progress. Microbes are made up of proteins, and they can't survive the process. There are some microbes that can survive those kind of temperatures, but if they were being distributed across a wide area, there would be quite a few very sick, sick people since the microbes that can survive heat like that also tend to be extremely nasty.

In short, everything about this theory is insulting to me as a scientist.

[Oniya]

Now someone needs to suggest that the government started and spread the chemtrails theory to take legitimacy away from valid complaints about government abuse. ::)

I like this idea.  >:)

Clouds and cloud systems can be persistent - hasn't anyone propagating this theory ever seen a hurricane? You can go to the satellite pages and watch the massive cloud systems roll off of Africa, across the lower Atlantic, and form up into tropical storms and hurricanes. I did it all the time when I was in a high risk area.

Volatile organic solvents tend to have a depressed boiling point - it's one of the qualities that make organic chemicals so useful in research and spectroscopy. They would be volatilized by the jet engine and the fumes would rise, not sink.

High heat also denatures proteins. If you've ever scrambled an egg, you can watch protein denaturation in progress. Microbes are made up of proteins, and they can't survive the process. There are some microbes that can survive those kind of temperatures, but if they were being distributed across a wide area, there would be quite a few very sick, sick people since the microbes that can survive heat like that also tend to be extremely nasty.

In short, everything about this theory is insulting to me as a scientist.

Even as a layperson.  Explaining cloud formation and atmospheric currents on an 8-year-old level isn't all that hard.  (I use 8, because one of the signs I've seen quotes a woman's 8-year-old as asking 'What are those lines in the sky, Mommy?') 

[Saria]

You know, as conspiracy theories go, this one is......... pretty sad.

I get the staying power of the Apollo Moon Landing conspiracy, or the 9/11 hoax conspiracy, and so on. The thing with those conspiracies is that they're functionally impossible to empirically disprove, because it's after the fact. We can show all the videos and evidence of what really happened to show that there was no conspiracy, but the conspiracy theorists can simply worm their way around the edges of the evidence we have. Once they do that, we can't go back and get more evidence. Put another way, if all we had is the Zapruder film, then conspiracy theorists could weave all kinds of stories about things just outside of the frame, and there'd no way to counter them (other than to point out Ockham's Razor, I suppose) because the only evidence we have is in frame, and there's no going back to get more.

But the proponents of this particular theory have to be the most half-assed conspiracy theorists there are. I mean, even the flouride-in-the-water-to-cause-mind-control theorists have to be looking at these chemtrail guys and saying, "dude......... weak."

Because it can't be that hard to pick out a plane that's allegedly spraying chemicals, follow it to an airport, and check the damn thing out. I wouldn't recommend that they look for the spraying mechanism (because they probably wouldn't know a pitot tube from a pencil sharpener), but rather look for the tanks that the chemicals had been in. There really isn't much room to hide any decent sized tanks on a modern passenger plane - hell, there's barely enough room for the freaking passengers on a modern passenger plane - so it shouldn't be hard to find the total absence of giant tanks of chemicals from these supposedly chemical spraying planes.

It's truly depressing that these people who are so concerned about what the government might be spraying on them can't even be bothered to get their act together and do that. Has nobody challenged the most vocal proponents of these theories - especially the ones writing the books - to ask why they don't do that? I'm not that bright; somebody has to have thought of it before me.

Some skeptic group should really pull a Randi. Get two groups of chemtrail "experts". Take one to the airport and let them examine the planes as they please - on camera - until they admit there are no sprayers or chemicals. Naturally they will say that these planes are cool and that other planes have the dreaded chemical tanks and sprayers, but never mind that. Never break camera contact from the moment the "experts" make their admission right through when the planes take to the air. Meanwhile, take the second group of "experts" downstream from the airport, along one of the most busy flight paths leaving the airport. Get truckloads of video of them waxing melodramatic about all the "scientific" details of the trails ("see how they just hang there? has to be chemicals sprayed!") while pointing to the "chemtrails" made......... by the very planes that were just certified "chemtrail free". Compare footage from the two groups. Enjoy.

[Callie Del Noire]

Now now Saria.. in all fairness not many folks know what a PITOT tube is.. (one of my favorite 'stupid airmen' stories involves a pitot tube, a water hose and the phase 'check this shit out')

And if they went to the airfield and did all that..they couldn't fee persecuted now could they?

[Saria]

Now now Saria.. in all fairness not many folks know what a PITOT tube is.. (one of my favorite 'stupid airmen' stories involves a pitot tube, a water hose and the phase 'check this shit out')

I suppose......... but you'd really think that someone who "knows" enough about aeroplanes and high-altitude fluid dynamics to "figure out" that chemtrails aren't vapour would.

And if they went to the airfield and did all that..they couldn't fee persecuted now could they?

Oh, I'd be happy to persecute them afterwards. :-) I'm a helper!

[TheGlyphstone]

Now now Saria.. in all fairness not many folks know what a PITOT tube is.. (one of my favorite 'stupid airmen' stories involves a pitot tube, a water hose and the phase 'check this shit out')

And if they went to the airfield and did all that..they couldn't fee persecuted now could they?

They could, however, feel prosecuted. ;D

[Oniya]

Okay - posted a general rant on the subject.  I'm very pleased that Facebook put the 'rant' half of it under the 'see more' - until you hit that, I sound like I might have seriously considered the topic.  Now to see if any of the conspiracy nuts are truly Smarter Than A Fifth-Grader.

[Saria]

This whole chemtrails thing reminded me of something... I couldn't put my finger on it... then it hit me.

Sprinkler Rainbow Conspiracy

Now, I know what you're thinking. You're thinking: Saria, that's gotta be a joke.

It's not a joke. The person who is hosting this video is not the original poster. The woman who originally posted it took it down - likely in the face of scathing mockery - however... she's real. And, as you can see, she's a chemtrail conspiracy fan (gotta love her title: "Truth Seeker Observing TPTB").

[Trieste]

I wonder what she would make of a double rainbow. >.>

I want those two minutes of my life back. I think I lost IQ points listening to that.

[Iniquitous]

This whole chemtrails thing reminded me of something... I couldn't put my finger on it... then it hit me.

Sprinkler Rainbow Conspiracy

Now, I know what you're thinking. You're thinking: Saria, that's gotta be a joke.

It's not a joke. The person who is hosting this video is not the original poster. The woman who originally posted it took it down - likely in the face of scathing mockery - however... she's real. And, as you can see, she's a chemtrail conspiracy fan (gotta love her title: "Truth Seeker Observing TPTB").

Omg my brain hurts now. I enjoy a good conspiracy theory as much as the next person but that woman is too much.

[Oniya]

I didn't listen to it - I just popped over to YouTube to look at the comments.  That was worth two minutes (especially the 11 year-old).

[TheGlyphstone]

Here's the same video, put to classical piano music.

[Shjade]

I love that she turns the camera sideways as if documentation of the rainbow from different directions will better convey the horror on display.

Contaminating our water with fabulous indeed.

[Hemingway]

"What the heck is in our water supply, what is in our oxygen supply?"

This got me thinking. What is in our oxygen supply? I did some sleuthing, and I discovered that the air we breathe is approximately 78% nitrogen, 20,9% oxygen, 0,9% argon, and a whole lot of other gases. The air we breathe! Both nitrogen and argon are potential asphyxiation hazards, among other things, and this is in the air!

I did some more research, and discovered that in the past, our planet's atmosphere had less nitrogen. Clearly what we are seeing now is an effort by some sort of nitrogen-breathing life form to change Earth's atmosphere to allow them to take over. I discovered this in five minutes using Wikipedia. How can people be so blind!?

... I ... I'm sorry, I had nothing better to do with my time.

[Saria]

XD Don't forget, Hemingway, oxygen is toxic, too, but how could that have been the case in the past? We would have all died out from being poisoned by the oxygen we breathe! This is clearly a result of the weather control programs run by TPTB, to turn the very oxygen we breathe toxic! ~nod~

[TheGlyphstone]

Reptiloid mind-control pheremones, obviously. Wake up, sheeple!

[Oniya]

I'm hoping that the picture that just showed up in my feed was someone talking about ordinary air pollution, or I'm going to have to smack the collective Internet.

[Sabby]

Chemtrails? Geez, thousands of years, and we're STILL looking at the sky and finding new Harbinger's of the end times. We've just replaced Pantheon's with Pentagon's.

[Oniya]

Chemtrails? Geez, thousands of years, and we're STILL looking at the sky and finding new Harbinger's of the end times. We've just replaced Pantheon's with Pentagon's.

That made me laugh.  I must now find a couple of images and make something to spread across the Internet.  (I'm thinking that medieval picture of the guy pointing at the comet, and a picture of the chemtrail guys with their signs.  Big caption:  Harbingers of DOOM.  Little caption: were just as valid back then.)


And... done. 

[Callie Del Noire]

That made me laugh.  I must now find a couple of images and make something to spread across the Internet.  (I'm thinking that medieval picture of the guy pointing at the comet, and a picture of the chemtrail guys with their signs.  Big caption:  Harbingers of DOOM.  Little caption: were just as valid back then.)


And... done. 

You know.. , for Harold II, the comet WAS a harbinger of doom.

[Oniya]

The battle of Hastings was Harold's doom.  The comet had nothing to do with the battle, other than being seen in the general vicinity.

[Callie Del Noire]

The battle of Hastings was Harold's doom.  The comet had nothing to do with the battle, other than being seen in the general vicinity.

True.. but it was an inducement for William to muster his forces and charge across the channel to conquer 'HIS' kingdom from the upstart. Propaganda or Prophecy? Wooooooooooooo

[Oniya]

Well, then William took his time about it.  The comet was visible in the UK in April - the battle wasn't until October.

[Callie Del Noire]

Well, then William took his time about it.  The comet was visible in the UK in April - the battle wasn't until October.

Just because you decide it.. doesn't make rounding up the ships, getting nobles to back you, ect.. any easier. I figure it would take a while to build up the army. Of course I am just assuming it took a while to build things.. wish I could recall more the curator in Normandy told us about the tapestry when we saw it.

IT's BLOODY HUGE btw.

[Oniya]

Harold was able to raise his army pretty quickly - had them stationed at the coast through July and August until the provisions ran out and he had to send them home on September 8.

IT's BLOODY HUGE btw.

I have mad respect for medieval needleworkers, considering how much work I've put into my own pieces with the benefit of modern conveniences.

[Callie Del Noire]

Harold was able to raise his army pretty quickly - had them stationed at the coast through July and August until the provisions ran out and he had to send them home on September 8.

I have mad respect for medieval needleworkers, considering how much work I've put into my own pieces with the benefit of modern conveniences.

Yeah.. I got mad respect for them.. more for the preservation time in Normandy.. that thing looks really really good. They did a good job on it. I also like the way the curators had these little widgets to explain each segment. You got a small handheld speaker that told you what each part was about as you walked by it.

I got to ask where you found the NZ protestors though.. definitely sipping the kool aid. :D

[Oniya]

Google image search on 'chemtrail protestors'.  I was half-looking for the one with the lady holding the sign about her 8-year-old asking about the lines in the sky, but there are only so many brain cells I'm prepared to lose sifting through pages of anti-science.