US Navy 1, pirates 0. Kidnapped US captain freed; snipers kill 3 pirates

[The Overlord]

To the Somalian pirates that had the arrogance to attack a US vessel and fire at a US destroyer, F*** you. You're fishbait.


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/piracy


I was discussing this in comms with some fellow EQ gamers last night, some of which were vets. I mentioned then my gut said SEAL's were going to factor into settling this issue, which there was agreement on. These little bastards are just too brazen and arrogant, and taking them to school was probably the only viable option.

America has raised the bar on this epidemic off the African coasts, and made the case that we don’t take shit. Since the pirate leaders have quoted the following-

Abdullahi Lami, one of the pirates holding the Greek ship anchored in the Somali town of Gaan, said: "Every country will be treated the way it treats us. In the future, America will be the one mourning and crying," he told The Associated Press. "We will retaliate (for) the killings of our men."

Jamac Habeb, a 30-year-old self-proclaimed pirate, told the AP from one of Somalia's piracy hubs, Eyl, that: "From now on, if we capture foreign ships and their respective countries try to attack us, we will kill them (the hostages)."

"Now they became our number one enemy," Habeb said of U.S. forces.


I'll assume it's full-on war with these bastards, and high time someone stepped up. The next logical step will be to assume they'll make good on their threat and try to kill American hostages. That means we arm our freighters where and how we can. It means proactive hunter-killer operations to take out the pirate fleet. It means surgical strikes on Somalian targets if need be.


Guess what, you just pissed off the wrong county. You deserve whatever you get.

NAIROBI, Kenya – Navy snipers on the fantail of a destroyer cut down three Somali pirates in a lifeboat and rescued an American sea captain in a surprise nighttime assault in choppy seas Easter Sunday, ending a five-day standoff between a team of rogue gunmen and the world's most powerful military.

It was a stunning ending to an Indian Ocean odyssey that began when 53-year-old freighter Capt. Richard Phillips was taken hostage Wednesday by pirates who tried to hijack the U.S.-flagged Maersk Alabama. The Vermont native was held on a tiny lifeboat that began drifting precariously toward Somalia's anarchic, gun-plagued shores.

The operation, personally approved by President Barack Obama, quashed fears the saga could drag on for months and marked a victory for the U.S., which for days seemed powerless to resolve the crisis despite massing helicopter-equipped warships at the scene.

One of the pirates pointed an AK-47 at the back of Phillips, who was tied up and in "imminent danger" of being killed when the commander of the nearby USS Bainbridge made the split-second decision to order his men to shoot, Vice Adm. Bill Gortney said. The lifeboat was being towed by the Bainbridge at the time, he said.

A fourth pirate was in discussions with naval authorities about Phillips' fate when the rescue took place. He is in U.S. custody and could face could face life in a U.S. prison.

The rescue was a dramatic blow to the pirates who have preyed on international shipping and hold more than a dozen ships with about 230 foreign sailors. But it is unlikely to do much to quell the region's growing pirate threat, which has transformed one of the world's busiest shipping lanes into one of its most dangerous. It also risked provoking retaliatory attacks.

"This could escalate violence in this part of the world, no question about it," said Gortney, the commander of U.S. Naval Forces Central Command.

Abdullahi Lami, one of the pirates holding the Greek ship anchored in the Somali town of Gaan, said: "Every country will be treated the way it treats us. In the future, America will be the one mourning and crying," he told The Associated Press. "We will retaliate (for) the killings of our men."

Jamac Habeb, a 30-year-old self-proclaimed pirate, told the AP from one of Somalia's piracy hubs, Eyl, that: "From now on, if we capture foreign ships and their respective countries try to attack us, we will kill them (the hostages)."

"Now they became our number one enemy," Habeb said of U.S. forces.

Phillips was not hurt in several minutes of gunfire and the U.S. Navy's 5th Fleet said he was resting comfortably on a U.S. warship after receiving a medical exam.

"I'm just the byline. The real heroes are the Navy, the Seals, those who have brought me home," Phillips said by phone to Maersk Line Limited President and CEO John Reinhart, the company head told reporters. A photo released by the Navy showed Phillips unharmed and shaking hands with the commanding officer of the USS Bainbridge.

Obama said Phillips had courage that was "a model for all Americans" and he was pleased about the rescue, adding that the United States needs help from other countries to deal with the threat of piracy and to hold pirates accountable.

Phillips' 17,000-ton ship, which docked with the 19 members of his crew Saturday in Mombasa, Kenya, erupted into wild cheers. Some waved an American flag and one fired a bright red flare skyward in celebration.

"We made it!" said crewman ATM Reza, pumping his fist in the air.

The ship had been carrying food aid bound for Rwanda, Somalia and Uganda when the ordeal began hundreds of miles off Somalia's eastern coast Wednesday. Crew members said they saw pirates scrambling into the ship with ropes and hooks from a small boat bobbing on the surface of the Indian Ocean far below.

As the pirates shot in the air, Phillips told his crew to lock themselves in a cabin and surrendered himself to safeguard his men, crew members said.

Phillips was then taken hostage in an enclosed lifeboat that was soon shadowed by three U.S. warships and a helicopter in a standoff that grew by the day. The pirates were believed armed with pistols and AK-47 assault rifles.

Talks to free him began Thursday with the captain of the USS Bainbridge talking to the pirates under instruction from FBI hostage negotiators on board the U.S. destroyer. The pirates had threatened to kill Phillips if attacked.

A government official and others in Somalia with knowledge of the situation said negotiations broke down late Saturday. The stumbling block, Somali officials said: Americans' insistence the pirates be arrested and brought to justice.

Phillips jumped out of the lifeboat Friday and tried to swim for his freedom but was recaptured when a pirate fired an automatic weapon into the water, according to U.S. Defense Department officials speaking on condition of anonymity because they are not authorized to talk about the unfolding operations.

On Saturday, pirates fired a few shots at a small U.S. Navy vessel that had approached, but the U.S. sailors did not return fire.

The U.S. Navy had assumed the pirates would try to get their hostage to shore, where they could have hidden him on Somalia's lawless soil and been in a stronger position to negotiate a ransom.

Somalia's government, which barely controls any territory in the country, welcomed the news of Phillips' rescue.

"The Somali government wanted the drama to end in a peaceful way, but any one who is involved in this latest case had the choice to use violence or other means," Abdulkhadir Walayo, the prime minister's spokesman, told the AP. "We see it will be a good lesson for the pirates or any one else involved in this dirty business."

Worried residents of Harardhere, another port and pirate stronghold, were gathering in the streets after news of the captain's release.

"We fear more that any revenge taken by the pirates against foreign nationals could bring more attacks from the foreign navies, perhaps on our villages," Abdullahi Haji Jama, who owns a clothes store in Harardhere, told the AP by telephone.

Pirates are holding about a dozen ships with more than 200 crew members, according to the Malaysia-based piracy watchdog International Maritime Bureau. Hostages are from Bulgaria, China, Germany, Indonesia, Italy, the Philippines, Russia, Taiwan, Tuvalu and Ukraine, among other countries.

The Navy said Phillips was freed at 7:19 p.m. local time. He was taken aboard the Norfolk, Va.-based Bainbridge and then flown to the San Diego-based USS Boxer for the medical exam, 5th Fleet spokesman Lt. Nathan Christensen said.

Christensen said Phillips was now "resting comfortably." The USS Boxer was in the Indian Ocean off the coast of Somalia, Christensen said.

U.S. officials said a fourth pirate had surrendered and was in military custody. FBI spokesman John Miller said that would change as the situation became "more of a criminal issue than a military issue."

A spokeswoman for the Phillips family, Alison McColl, said Phillips and his wife, Andrea, spoke by phone shortly after he was freed.

"I think you can all imagine their joy and what a happy moment that was for them," McColl said outside of the Phillips home in Underhill, Vt. "They're all just so happy and relieved. Andrea wanted me to tell the nation that all of your prayers and good wishes have paid off, because Capt. Phillips is safe."

Capt. Joseph Murphy, the father of second-in-command Shane Murphy, thanked Phillips for his bravery.

"Our prayers have been answered on this Easter Sunday," Murphy said. "If not for his incredible personal sacrifice, this kidnapping and act of terror could have turned out much worse."

Murphy said both his family and Phillips' "can now celebrate a joyous Easter together."

"This was an incredible team effort, and I am extremely proud of the tireless efforts of all the men and women who made this rescue possible" Gortney said in a statement.

He called Phillips and his crew "heroic."

Terry Aiken, 66, who lives across the street from the Phillips house, fought back tears as he reacted to the news.

"I'm very, very happy," Aiken said. "I can't be happier for him and his family."

[Oniya]

I have two words for this.

Sleeping.
Giant.

[Kurzyk]

I have two words for this.

Sleeping.
Giant.

heh awakened?

[Inkidu]

That's the America I know! Hoo-rah! Good thing they didn't use the Marines.

[Zakharra]

 I'm arguing in another forum with some people that think the US should not have resorted to violence and that the pirates were justified since they never intended to kill anyone and have a good record of letting people go once the ransom is paid. That the US overreacted.

  ::)

I think the US Navy did exactly the right thing.

[Avi]

When a pirate group takes a hostage, intending to kill him in order to get a ransom... well, they've kinda given the Navy permission to put some .308 rounds in their skulls.

[Mnemaxa]

"The threat of violence must always be used with the knowledge that the act of violence may follow."

But Sun Tzu never said from which side the violence must come.

[Oniya]

To expand on what I said earlier - these people are affecting international shipping the same way that U-boats were affecting it in the 30s.  They have also shown that they are not above attacking civilians.  If I was involved in the planning of such things, I'd be recommending convoys and escorts for shipping lanes, as well as no-holds-barred on these pirates.

Seriously - what excuse are these guys giving for why we shouldn't be taking these measures?  'You horrible Americans - shooting our pirates when all we're doing is kidnapping your citizens and holding them for ransom!  You should pay us off like everyone else!'?  How does that solve the problem?

[Zeitgeist]

While I didn't vote for Obama, and I really dislike most of what he's done thus far, it would be disingenuous to be an ideologue about things.

Kudos to Obama for making the executive decision to authorize use of force.

And kudos to the Navy Seals for making not one, not two but three money shots off the fantail of a destroyer across the water nailing the three pirates in a bobbing and rocking boat on the high seas.

Pop, pop, pop...

How fricken' sweet.

[Kroduk]

See, look how easy that was. Why isn't everyone just shooting pirates?

[The Overlord]

Obama was correct to make the order to authorize this.

By his heritage alone, Obama is going to be an active proponent of helping Africa develop, but he's made the point that he will brook no foolishness from there.

The experts are correct; this was only round one. This will not stop acts of piracy on its own. But, this was the first direct confrontation between Somalian pirates and the United States, and they got thier balls kicked up into their throat and went home with their tail between their legs.

What happens next is entirely up to the pirates' leaders. If they make good on their threats to make America mourn, then they'll have hell brought down upon their heads the likes of which won't be able to handle.

There are elements of the US military that was ready to go into Somalia at the drop of a hat after the Blackhawk Down incident; who were outraged at the sight of our troops being dragged insultingly through the streets, and wanted nothing better than to go in and teach the little cocksuckers some respect. Clinton opted not to send them, and I agree that it was the wrong move.

I've seen the interviews with Somali militants involved in it; self-righteous little bastards that walked around full of swagger that they punched America in the nose and made it go home, when what we should have done was let our guys get back in the ring and lop off their heads and spit down their throat.

The pirates have promised to make America cry; to paraphrase General Sherman, we need make Somalia howl.

In that regard I think a fight has been brewing between us for years, and it might finally be coming out at last. As was explained, the area of water surrounding Africa where the shipping lanes are threatened is four times the size of Texas. If a warship is under five miles from an attack ship and gets a timely call for help, they can get there in time to bust up a boarding attempt, otherwise it’s all past tense. There’s too much ocean for even the ships of an international policing effort to effectively guard.

The pirates show no sign of stopping; for the most part this is easy money for them. The required fix, then, is not sitting back hoping you can get lucky and catch them in the act. If Somalia makes good on its promise to retaliate on the US, then our navy needs to go find the pirates and pick a fight. We will have to actively hunt and kill the pirate fleet.


CNN keeps running this headline: Can the Pirates Be Stopped?

Don’t be stupid; of course they can. Historically, piracy always flourished in geopolitical environments where they could get away with it until the powers-that-be decided they had enough and went in and took them apart. The end will be same this time around as well; what I sincerely hope is that many of the victimized nations will follow our example and make this the turning point in the piracy campaign, and the juncture that spelled the beginning of the end for their reign of terror on the high seas.

[Kroduk]

Where's Davy Jones when you need him?

[Thufir Hawat]

Guys, I'm not American, I'm not Somali, and as a human being, I'm really glad the captain is alive!
...I also wrote a rather long post considering the merits and flaws of this decision. But now that I think more on it, I believe Obama might have intended to tackle the piracy anyway, so it was probably just a good opportunity to start by showing it's the right thing to do!

[Oniya]

If a warship is under five miles from an attack ship and gets a timely call for help, they can get there in time to bust up a boarding attempt, otherwise it’s all past tense. There’s too much ocean for even the ships of an international policing effort to effectively guard.

So, why not have the policing ships come along with the shipping freighters?

[HairyHeretic]

Volume of shipping and size of ocean, I would imagine. Unless you're running convoys, then the warships are going to be too spread out to be of much help. Convoys would mean scheduling the ships movements, and that would increase running costs for the shipping companies.

[Inkidu]

Why are people suddenly so concerned with pirates' rights? They're criminals. Here they would have the right to remain silent, anything they say can and will be used in a court of law. They have the right to an attorney, so on and so forth.

More than they deserve. Plus this if Somalia. Who knows what rights they give 'em.

[Zeitgeist]

Yeah in order to really resolve the issue, they (NATO?) needs to go after the ports and port cities from which these pirates are based out of.

Ideally the Somali government would license boat operators and oversee fishing licenses. But alas, the government is so inept and defunct that isn't going to happen any time soon.

But the problem needs to be address on many levels and layers if its to be resolved or at least measurably diminished.

[Bliss]

Yeah in order to really resolve the issue, they (NATO?) needs to go after the ports and port cities from which these pirates are based out of.

Ideally the Somali government would license boat operators and oversee fishing licenses. But alas, the government is so inept and defunct that isn't going to happen any time soon.

But the problem needs to be address on many levels and layers if its to be resolved or at least measurably diminished.

This is a very key point here; the Somali government has been neither centralized nor in any way particularly effective for years now.

Policing what waters we can and offering protective measures to shipping... ships* is all well and good for treating the symptoms, but you have to address the source of a problem - the political situation needs some serious work in that country.


* Hi, early morning equals the thing with the thing... y'know the thing?

[Oniya]

Starting to address the symptoms is at least a start - much better than ignoring them and hoping they'll go away.

[Zeitgeist]

This is a very key point here; the Somali government has been neither centralized nor in any way particularly effective for years now.

Policing what waters we can and offering protective measures to shipping... ships* is all well and good for treating the symptoms, but you have to address the source of a problem - the political situation needs some serious work in that country.

Just so long as its not used as an excuse to not enforce piracy on the waters. I mean, we can't throw up our hands and say well, its just pointless because the Somali government is incapable of enforcing any sense of law. The issue needs to be addressed on all levels. Political/Economical/Criminal.

The US has been operating in the Horn of Africa for a number of years now, in large part to deny Al-Qaeda a safe haven and fertile ground to plant more seeds of terrorism.

* Hi, early morning equals the thing with the thing... y'know the thing?

Are you flirting with my thing?  :o

[Bliss]

Just so long as its not used as an excuse to not enforce piracy on the waters. I mean, we can't throw up our hands and say well, its just pointless because the Somali government is incapable of enforcing any sense of law. The issue needs to be addressed on all levels. Political/Economical/Criminal.

The US has been operating in the Horn of Africa for a number of years now, in large part to deny Al-Qaeda a safe haven and fertile ground to plant more seeds of terrorism.

Yes. I'm not saying to look at it only on the political level and leave the waters unguarded, as that wouldn't make any more sense than trying to guard the locations of immediate danger/violence and not attempt to address the high-level where change could be effected.

Are you flirting with my thing?  :o

Mr. Zamdrist, Ah do declay-uh, mah thing wouldn't dream of approaching your thing uniintroduced!
Um.
/hijack

[Zeitgeist]

Yes. I'm not saying to look at it only on the political level and leave the waters unguarded, as that wouldn't make any more sense than trying to guard the locations of immediate danger/violence and not attempt to address the high-level where change could be effected.

Agreed, address it all levels and in conjunction with one another. Much like immigration. But I digress.

Mr. Zamdrist, Ah do declay-uh, mah thing wouldn't dream of approaching your thing uniintroduced!
Um.
/hijack

Oh THAT thing. Flees.

[The Overlord]

.

So, why not have the policing ships come along with the shipping freighters?

That's how it was done in the WWII Atlantic theatre. Ships would group into huge convoys and escorted by Allied warships against the U-boat menace as they moved between North America and the British Isles.

To me, it makes sense to do that, but give that commerce in these channels consists of multinational ships going in and out of many African ports, not to mention those ships that are just bypassing the continent on their way to another region, I am wondering how effective it will all be, from a logistics and organization standpoint.

Like any predator, the pirates won't go for a convoy with destroyers or cruisers running escort unless they're stupid (but you never know being as they actually fired at a US warship), but it will just take a few ships running solo to keep the pirates with good targets.

Policing the sea lanes with or without the convoys will ultimately just help alleviate the symptoms, but not cure the disease. To do that, the pirate fleets will have to be blown out of the water, and/or they'll have to be given an extremely high body count that will put the fear of god in them and make them think that leaving port in the first place is a very bad idea.

My opinion is that any effort to root them out should be a no-quarter affair. Ships known to be pirate vessels can be fired upon and sunk upon sighting, whether they're currently attacking another vessel or not. The pirates should afforded no rights; even the option to execute them on the spot should be there, if the commanding officer feels it needs to be done again.

The heyday of Caribbean piracy that's been glorified in the movies came to an end when the British navy finally said enough of this bullshit and dropped the hammer. The discussion on CNN with the experts is that the pirates indeed rule by threat of force and brutality; force is they only thing they understand or respond to. Nobody ever got a bully to back down by playing nice. When there's more pirate ships and pirates in the depths of the sea then on it, then this will have come to an end.

[Apple of Eris]

Blowing up pirates isn't alleviating the core root of the problem. The problem is you have a country that has broken down, with no real control at all, a poor and hungry popluace that has little hope or options other than war/crime because they have no stability.

And since you have large ships passing relatively close by, and owned by companies that have millions of dollars, and having shown that you can get millions of dollars by commiting the crime... It's a no brainer really.

It's just like the drug trade, as long as theres a chance to make a hell of a lot of money, you're going to find someone desperate or crazy enough to try it. The difference here is that you have no military/police force able to control the ports these pirates use. Till that happens, better get used to a lot of piracy based out of the horn.

[Inkidu]

Blowing up pirates isn't alleviating the core root of the problem. The problem is you have a country that has broken down, with no real control at all, a poor and hungry popluace that has little hope or options other than war/crime because they have no stability.

And since you have large ships passing relatively close by, and owned by companies that have millions of dollars, and having shown that you can get millions of dollars by commiting the crime... It's a no brainer really.

It's just like the drug trade, as long as theres a chance to make a hell of a lot of money, you're going to find someone desperate or crazy enough to try it. The difference here is that you have no military/police force able to control the ports these pirates use. Till that happens, better get used to a lot of piracy based out of the horn.

Ironically Somalia is the self-proclaimed, "Most Democratic Nation on the Planet" what they don't tell you is that it's because anyone does whatever they want whenever they want.

[Apple of Eris]

Unless you run afoul of the islamic militias that are taking over a lot of the south. Then you run afoul of Sharia law. Which would take me all of five minutes.

[RubySlippers]

I just want to point out that the Somoli pirates are the one stable group keeping radical Muslims at bay from much of the country. They have the guns, support of the people and frankly economic power to be oddly the best stable force there is. Eliminate them and we might lose the North of the country to radical Islamic elements and their brand of justice.

Is what they do so bad deaths are rare, a ransom is paid and the crew and cargo is released and they do take decent care of their hostages by all accounts once in their areas of control.

[Apple of Eris]

They're kidnapping innocent people and threatening their lives and you're asking if that's bad? Are you serious?

[Inkidu]

They're kidnapping innocent people and threatening their lives and you're asking if that's bad? Are you serious?

I feel a lesser of two evils argument coming on...

[RubySlippers]

They're kidnapping innocent people and threatening their lives and you're asking if that's bad? Are you serious?

Yes the lesser of two evils. If we eliminate the pirates we are likely going to end up with a nation with far less civilized people to deal with. How many hostages were actually killed by pirates or raped or other atrocities as far as I can tell its very low. I think this particular case was aggrevated by the American ships. They just had to pay off the ransom and that the company could have done easily.

Ever think that maybe if these ships had decent armed men and women, suited to the size of the vessel that they would not be targets?

[Sho]

Frankly, I'm with The Overlord on this one. Congrats to the SEALS, and...wow, what impressive shots. The bastard pirates got what they deserved...hopefully they'll think twice about looking at, let alone touching our ships again. Thanks, Overlord, for posting this! I didn't even know about this 'til I read it.

[Schwarzepard]

Good job by the SEALs, l look forward to many more.

As a solution I recommend Q ships: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Q-ship

[Mnemaxa]

The problem with this is legitimizing the potential for untoward activitites.  Say you have a company that won't pay the ransom.....

What then?  The pirates can't feed the prisoners - that's why they're doing this in the first place.  They can just dump them off....in a arid, deserted land, where they have no chance of surviving, being mindless sheep from First World countries....

Ah, but there is another option. 

The reason people pay the ransoms is to prevent the people from being sold into slavery. 

Because, really, what other options would the pirates have?

And if you doubt it would happen....think hard on it.  Name other options....and you come back to the one that makes money.

[RubySlippers]

I pointe dout the simple solution have proper armed and trained security forces on the ships, some 50mm machine guns in key locations and seaoned ex-military ready for action. Pirates as I can tell will not attack ships that are able to fight back with good resistence at least by reports. It should be each companies job to provide such security or take the risk of traveling and getting captured.

Like I said its these pirates or armed Muslim nutcases taking over the entire nation, I would worry about American ships have the government either have escort convoys or have companies arm their vessels for their security. Let other nations worry about their citizens.

KUDO to our Navy Seals great shooting and all at least they had the right the Captain was an American but I blame the company for putting them out there with no defense to prevent the attack from hapoening.

[Zakharra]

Yes the lesser of two evils. If we eliminate the pirates we are likely going to end up with a nation with far less civilized people to deal with. How many hostages were actually killed by pirates or raped or other atrocities as far as I can tell its very low. I think this particular case was aggrevated by the American ships. They just had to pay off the ransom and that the company could have done easily.

Ever think that maybe if these ships had decent armed men and women, suited to the size of the vessel that they would not be targets?

By allowing it to happen, we would be accepting the price of hijacked ships. It would not take long for other groups to catch on and start doing the same thing. It also sets a real bad precedent that lets criminals be rewarded for bad behaviours because people are afraid of the consequences.


Scenario:
Pirates: Stop, we are boarding  and will hold your ship until your company pays into the Somali Pirates Children Fund. Your money goes to feed our families and keeps the radical Islamists from taking over completely. Praise Allah! *chambers a round, muzzle at the crew member's head* 

[HairyHeretic]

As a solution I recommend Q ships: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Q-ship

Funny, I was just wondering if that would be a viable option myself.

[The Overlord]

Blowing up pirates isn't alleviating the core root of the problem. The problem is you have a country that has broken down, with no real control at all, a poor and hungry popluace that has little hope or options other than war/crime because they have no stability.

And since you have large ships passing relatively close by, and owned by companies that have millions of dollars, and having shown that you can get millions of dollars by commiting the crime... It's a no brainer really.

It's just like the drug trade, as long as theres a chance to make a hell of a lot of money, you're going to find someone desperate or crazy enough to try it. The difference here is that you have no military/police force able to control the ports these pirates use. Till that happens, better get used to a lot of piracy based out of the horn.

Somalia has been spiraling for years; it's the African edition of Haiti, with regimes or powers that come and go with the support of groups and influences both foreign and domestic.

Fixing Somalia would be great, and settle a lot of problems, no doubts there. Even in a best case scenario of firm international cooperation and effort, fixing Somalia would be a very long term project. Problem is, there's been no genuine international interest or effort in lifting Somalia out of the commode it's been floating in for many years now, and a drastically improved Somalia isn't even on the horizon at this point.

In the meantime, the piracy coming from Somalian shores is delivering an immediate and potentially lethal threat to international shipping and crews. These days you can't even sail a peaceful cruise ship past African coastlines without risk of being shot at and boarded. The point has been made that nothing that can sail through those waters is immune to at least an attempted attack.

Something has to be done about the pirate threat...right now, not twelve months or five years from now. letting them go about with their business will only embolden a faction in Somalia that is already cocksure of itself and long overdue for a humiliating drag through the mud at the point of American guns, or by any other nation with a vested interest and desire in seeing this stop.

What will stopping piracy off the coast of Africa do to help Somalia? Very little unfortunately, but pirates are like any other predator; at the end of the day the law of jungle prevails. The United States roared loudest and struck hard this weekend, and is likely going to have to take the offensive from here. Predators hunt for easier prey, and they don't do it in sight of even bigger predators that prove they'll kill to hold their ground.


Yes, you won’t likely remove the desire from Somalia to commit acts of piracy, but you can deprive them of their means. Taking out all potential pirates would likely involve killing far more Somalians than the international community would be willing or even able to do, but no pirate ever took a ship by swimming out to sea. You kill their fleet of ships and the means to organize them, such as bases of operation, and the threat is removed.

[Inkidu]

I think if Somalia keeps acting up we need to let those poor fly boys on the carriers have a couple of shots.

[Schwarzepard]

I pointe dout the simple solution have proper armed and trained security forces on the ships, some 50mm machine guns in key locations and seaoned ex-military ready for action.

I would like to see these 50mm machineguns!

Here are the issues I see with this:

A security force of any size would significantly increase the crew of the ship, which would make living conditions shit.  They would need to be paid well or they would leave the job, or just suck at it.  They would be subject to the laws controlling the use of force, where pirates wouldn't.  All it would take is for the families of dead pirates to cry to the media about how innocent fishermen were killed by evil ship security people.  These costs would make everything that comes by sea cost more.  Pirates often attack in groups of 50 more armed with machineguns and RPGs.  It's no joke and would require a comparable security force on each ship.

I suggest slaughtering them wherever we find them and when the Islamists that they are supposedly preventing from taking over take over, slaughtering them too.  They can hold ship crews hostage?  We can hold that whole country hostage.  The weakness, of course, is in political will.

We could watch by satellite or UAV or something, see where the pirate ships come to land and blow the hell out of it.

If poor innocent fishermen complain, they can start the tradition of "Somalian Kick a Pirate's Ass Day", in which poor innocent fishermen beat the shit out of pirates in their communities for bringing shame on their good name and foreign bombs on their homes.

[RubySlippers]

Or the calssic convoy have many ships with a few warships escorting, I suspect one larger warship or submarine per then vessels would be enough to scare off a pirate attack.

And again what do do when we take out the pirates and end up with blood thirsty jihadists who are right now checked by pirates and people that clearly support them. Pirates still seem to be honorable a bloodthirsty screaming Muslim nutcase is not. I think the US though should escort OUR ships through those waters with proper convoys and let other countries protect their people if they care to.

[Inkidu]

Or the calssic convoy have many ships with a few warships escorting, I suspect one larger warship or submarine per then vessels would be enough to scare off a pirate attack.

And again what do do when we take out the pirates and end up with blood thirsty jihadists who are right now checked by pirates and people that clearly support them. Pirates still seem to be honorable a bloodthirsty screaming Muslim nutcase is not. I think the US though should escort OUR ships through those waters with proper convoys and let other countries protect their people if they care to.

What a romantic notion.

[RubySlippers]

Why romantic? Ships under our flag at sea or carrying goods to the United States have a right to our naval protection and convoys do work just look at WW II. All one needs is one decent warship showing the flag and with orders to sink any vessel showing hostile intent to the convoy and deal with it. Let other nations protect their ships. Its also a better use of our ships one ship could defend ten large cargo vessels if the ship has attack helicopters it would be even a better visible threat to any such attackers. Right now there are just not enough ships for the ocean that must be covered so this makes excellent sense.

And if we decide to attack the pirate base towns we will just end up making this worse, attacking the pirates under our Rules of Engagement will not effective. My option is the best one defend our own and use whatever force is needed just be clear there is a zone around the convoy that is a clear fire zone to pirates.

[Inkidu]

To think what the pirates are doing is honorable.

[Zakharra]

And if we decide to attack the pirate base towns we will just end up making this worse, attacking the pirates under our Rules of Engagement will not effective. My option is the best one defend our own and use whatever force is needed just be clear there is a zone around the convoy that is a clear fire zone to pirates.

It's the best one you see, not necessarily the best one others see. The problem needs to be dealt with at the sourece, and that means eventualy taking out the pirates bases. Motherships at first, then (hopefully) specifically targeted strikes on the ports that let them operate in them.

[Vekseid]

For a completely different take on the Somalian pirate problem

[Zeitgeist]

For a completely different take on the Somalian pirate problem

So, we are to believe that at the same time Europeans are dumping their nuclear and mercury waste offshore from Somalia, those same Europeans are gobbling up all the sources of seafood, presumably in the same waters?

Don't make a lick o' sense to me.

[Inkidu]

So, we are to believe that at the same time Europeans are dumping their nuclear and mercury waste offshore from Somalia, those same Europeans are gobbling up all the sources of seafood, presumably in the same waters?

Don't make a lick o' sense to me.

That tends to not go over well on sushi night...

[Zeitgeist]

For a completely different take on the Somalian pirate problem

So I did a bit of searching on the UN website for this fella named Ahmedou Ould-Abdallah, who is the UN representative to Somalia and quoted in the above article, charging that Europeans are dumping nuclear waster and stealing seafood from Somalia's waters.

Well, the two links below are some of the more recent hits on this fellow and 'pirates'.

It seems, when given the opportunity, he chose not to mention said grievances. The articles are a little more than a year old, so they are not terribly recent but I see no mention of the grievances or anything more immediately recent.

http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=25164&Cr=somalia&Cr1=

http://www.un.org/News/Press/docs/2007/sc9203.doc.htm

Perhaps he's a fraud, perhaps the author of the article is a fraud, perhaps they both are.

...but ah hah! Here is something much more recent, April 9th, 2009.

http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=30447&Cr=somalia&Cr1=piracy

“Their proliferation is an insult to international legality but also an invitation to the international community to bring an appropriate and new support to the Somali authorities to help them address effectively the root causes of piracy,” said Mr. Ould-Abdallah.

The author of that article, Johann Hari is most assuredly a fraud.

..and yet, here are two articles that in fact back up the author's story:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/article418665.ece

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/africa/2008/10/2008109174223218644.html

[Zakharra]

 Hah!  ;D  The Europeans can't blame the US for this mess. It's all their fault.

[Destiny Ascension]

That's the America I know! Hoo-rah! Good thing they didn't use the Marines.

Yeah, we would have made the pirates shit themselves before we gave them a stern ass kicking.

Normally, I don't think much of squids, but SEALs damn hardcore. Hooyah!

[The Overlord]

For a completely different take on the Somalian pirate problem

I can understand that local fury there if that's going on off the Somalian coast.

It would be no different than the crap that goes on here in the States. The folks in Palm Springs, California would be all up in arms if someone tried to erect a landfill within eyeshot of their little desert Mecca, but they'd just as willingly push all their shit and trash somewhere into Compton.

People with money and power are ultimately cowards, and often resort to this sort of thing. I have heard that freighters are bringing western garbage to Africa and dumping it on the shores, desecrating the cradle of humanity rather than finding a real alternative...what nations that is I don't know.

If the pirates watched a ship dump crap in the water and then blew a hole in it and sent it to the bottom, they'd be justified, even if it was a US ship. I wouldn't stand for that either.

These guys (at least the ones we're hearing about) are just grabbing ships and crews and ransoming then...I heard nada about this. IF they are out there for a noble cause, then you don't seize ships for ransom, you hold them until the dumping stops and the powers-that-be clean up their shit.

Do you think the ransoming pirates are using the money to clean up seafloor ecology? Fat chance; at best this is a case of crooks attacking crooks, and they're all blind men trashing the oceans in their arrogance...in the long run they're ALL going down because of it.

Of course the entire piracy issue as given to us on the news could be a fabrication, but in that case you may as well turn off your TV for good. You can't trust anything and may as well just wait for the world to implode.

...and try to find a job on dry land in the meantime.

[Inkidu]

Yeah, we would have made the pirates shit themselves before we gave them a stern ass kicking.

Normally, I don't think much of squids, but SEALs damn hardcore. Hooyah!

I'm sure if they didn't have hostages the SEALs would have just put some C4 on the bottom and scuttle that thing.

[Schwarzepard]

I read the different take article and several other articles about the issue and my conclusions are:

Toxic and nuclear waste dumping has been going in Somalia for years.

Toxic waste dumping has been going on in Europe for years, the articles didn't mention nuclear.

The author fails pathetically to justify the actions of the Somali pirates and they should still be slaughtered via 50mm machineguns.

[Kroduk]

You can't blame them for doing what it takes to survive in a world more cutthroat and miserable than most of us can imagine. I can, however, blame them for screwing about with American ships and citizens. You'd think the world would have learned not to fuck with us by now.

[RubySlippers]

To think what the pirates are doing is honorable.

No its just the lesser of two evils, radical Muslims are a far more dangerous threat to the nation than pirates. Who with simple and reasonable measures defensively could have reduced chances at ship. Convoy vessels by a local newspaper account they took another ship when ,shockingly, the US Destroyer couldn't get to the vessel in time. And now they are trying to target US flagged ships on purpose.

Might I suggest an odd notion lets get our warships with the US flagged vessels and keep them together it worked in WW II against the U-Boats farily well and they were a far bigger menace.

Do you want radical Sharia Law enforced on all parts of Somolia, right now the moderates support the pirates who are the only force armed well enough to keep them at bay. Eliminating them could be worst than leaving them to get what ships they can and like I pointed out we can protect our own ships. If we do so using simple and tested tactics. If you saw 20 American cargo ships with a helicopter gunship and destroyer would you try to attack it if you were pirates? I think not.

[Maeven]

No its just the lesser of two evils, radical Muslims are a far more dangerous threat to the nation than pirates.

There's been speculation that at least a portion of the funding for Al-Shabaab, the radical Islamic militant group acting in Somalia, comes from the ransoms being demanded by these very same pirates.  It seems plausible to me.  Have you read something somewhere that says otherwise?

[The Overlord]

I'm not sure how much that Somalia's power structure differs from the multiple 'warlords' of the mid-90's, but whoever is holding power there, officially or otherwise, you can bet there is an organizing force on the piracy. Fishermen and farmers tend not to just get together one day and say 'hey guys...I bet if we try real hard we can be pirates!'

So I doubt any ransom money is going into legitimate hands, if there is such a thing in Somalia. I also hope what Vek's article said is not factual, or I'd be casting a very wary eye at Europe. 

And I hope that we, the US, are not involved in the dumping either.


Problem is, I have little reason to trust my government on pretty much anything.


And given the things I've learned in the past decade about the lengths that big business will go though to save a few dollars and keep profits rolling in, I won't ever trust big business again.

Ever. Ever. Ever.

[Inkidu]

I'm not sure how much that Somalia's power structure differs from the multiple 'warlords' of the mid-90's, but whoever is holding power there, officially or otherwise, you can bet there is an organizing force on the piracy. Fishermen and farmers tend not to just get together one day and say 'hey guys...I bet if we try real hard we can be pirates!'

So I doubt any ransom money is going into legitimate hands, if there is such a thing in Somalia. I also hope what Vek's article said is not factual, or I'd be casting a very wary eye at Europe. 

And I hope that we, the US, are not involved in the dumping either.


Problem is, I have little reason to trust my government on pretty much anything.


And given the things I've learned in the past decade about the lengths that big business will go though to save a few dollars and keep profits rolling in, I won't ever trust big business again.

Ever. Ever. Ever.

What's sadder is the government can't trust its people anymore either. /hijack

[Sho]

We're in a better boat [no pun intended] than some. At least we have the ability to talk about our government's faults and vote for people we think will hopefully fix the problems our country is facing. /hijack

Aaaand...back to the pirate topic!

[Kroduk]

Yeah... we have the ability to delude ourselves into thinking we're making a difference, and therefore do absolutely nothing of actual worth. Go democracy.

[The Overlord]

What's sadder is the government can't trust its people anymore either. /hijack

Perhaps, but you have to ask who brought that on. Lying to people and marginalizing ethnic segments of the population for years won't win anyone votes of confidence.

[Inkidu]

Perhaps, but you have to ask who brought that on. Lying to people and marginalizing ethnic segments of the population for years won't win anyone votes of confidence.

Oh so they only lie to the minorities? Well damn, I thought I was being lied to, too! D: I'm missing out on the whole government experience.

[The Overlord]

Oh so they only lie to the minorities? Well damn, I thought I was being lied to, too! D: I'm missing out on the whole government experience.

Lying to people as in 'people...in...general'. Come on man, you know better than that Inkidu.

[Inkidu]

Lying to people as in 'people...in...general'. Come on man, you know better than that Inkidu.

Of course the government lies. Hell people lie to the government. The only question is who did it first and it doesn't really matter because no one will ever know.

[Bliss]

A boss I had and very much respected instilled in my the idea of address the problem, don't waste time trying to assign blame; with our country, as well as with Somalia, I think a lot of time can be saved by not wasting time on fingerpointing, but trying to get to the root of the respective problems and working on a fix.

Which brings me back to the point that I still maintain about the Somalian pirate situation - policing waters for the safety of our own shipping freighters is good, but to work to develop a stable government in Somalia that can take the crackdown on piracy into its own hands would be far better. Treating the problem, not merely a symptom.

[Zakharra]

 True, but after the last screw-up's any remaking of the government is going to be resisted. It would almost be easier to take over the country/cities, taking the resistance that would come and control the ports. Leaving the countryside to it's own devices.

Anything anyone does is going to be resisted by the fanatical zealots, and by the pirates. But the rest of the world has to stop treating the Somalia coastline as a dumping ground *eyes European nations and companies*

While we deal with the pirates. Permanently.  Will it cost lives? Yes, but it has to be paid. No matter what happens, lives will be lost.

[The Overlord]

Of course the government lies. Hell people lie to the government. The only question is who did it first and it doesn't really matter because no one will ever know.

Everybody lies at some point, that’s not the point, nor is who started really the point.

The point is that the government is the one writing and enforcing laws in society. That carries power with it, and as the old adage says with power comes responsibility. That’s been a huge problem with US government in recent years; these seems to be no problem with using, abusing, and just plain throwing around power, but very little responsibility guiding it. A large portion of the world would probably agree on that.

So following the example of who ‘started it’, it’s the government’s responsibility to ‘start it’; start with a moral example. And it also starts with the big business that is lobbying to them and helping them get in office; an arena where these is barely any morality at all.

Don’t dictate law, policy, or morality to me if you have no intention of upholding it yourself. The problem lies in the fact that many of us (rightly) see government as a bloated, self-serving machine bogged down under its own weight. If they intend to lie to the people just because the people can lie too, well, then that’s a copout and proof they had every intention of doing it anyway. If our leaders want to be leaders, then they need to be leaders.

A boss I had and very much respected instilled in my the idea of address the problem, don't waste time trying to assign blame; with our country, as well as with Somalia, I think a lot of time can be saved by not wasting time on fingerpointing, but trying to get to the root of the respective problems and working on a fix.

Which brings me back to the point that I still maintain about the Somalian pirate situation - policing waters for the safety of our own shipping freighters is good, but to work to develop a stable government in Somalia that can take the crackdown on piracy into its own hands would be far better. Treating the problem, not merely a symptom.

A good maxim to live by, but plugging it into Inkidu’s argument, much of the powers-that-be are very happy with things as they are. They have no intention of changing their policies. Eight failed years with the Bush administration, Halliburton and their ilk only define the ‘problem’ as everyone else; i.e., anyone and anything standing in the way of their goals.



The problem with Somalia is going to be a complex one; a good slice of population will resent a Western involvement or presence in their country, no matter the reason or the outcome. I can understand this from a certain viewpoint; as a citizen of the US, if foreign troops were ‘keeping order’ in my hometown, I’d very likely be setting roadside bombs and sniping at them too. Even this idea of hired help for the government wouldn’t wash. I would have been watching Blackwater with a very hard eye were I in New Orleans post-Katrina. I don’t recognize a bunch of yahoos with guns from North Carolina as an authority even if the president himself marched into the town with them.


Committing to surgical strikes to get rid of pirate bases of operation; yes. Putting masses of troops into Somalia to police it for years; no. Whatever aid that goes there should be given as tools to help Somalia get on its feet with a stable government, with the warning that those rebuilding Somalia do it responsibly or we’re going to take them out as well.

[Zeitgeist]

I don't think it is a matter of choice between policing the coastline, or concentrating on the root problem, because quite clearly the only choice is both.

Also, at what point and by what measure should Somalis be expected to do their part in getting their shit together? We and others can help, but no one talks about what level of responsibility rests on the shoulders of Somalis.

[The Overlord]

Also, at what point and by what measure should Somalis be expected to do their part in getting their shit together? We and others can help, but no one talks about what level of responsibility rests on the shoulders of Somalis.

Well I'm sure that's for the 'experts' to hash out, but a stable government that's not in a constant state of coup I would say is desirable. Given the shitstorm that's plagued Somalia for years, I can't imagine any given Somalian saying no to that, unless they're part of the problem (pirate, warlord faction, etc.).


It doesn't have to be a pro-Western government, as we know that often equates to a vassal state. Just a Somalia that can stand on its own would go a long way toward fixing at least that side of Africa.

[Sabby]

I'm politically illiterate, but I just saw the new South Park regarding the Somalian Pirates.

"They're french, they surrendered immediately"

[Kroduk]

Heh. Heh heh heh heh. Awesome.

[The Overlord]

Actually, they've been making French toast out of a lot of ship crews, but those are typically unarmed civilian vessels.

When they take on ships that can actually shoot back it's a different story.

[Sabby]

Yeah, but this crew was forced off the ship with a plastic Lightsabre.

[The Overlord]

Yeah, but this crew was forced off the ship with a plastic Lightsabre.

As opposed to a real lightsabre?  :P

[Bliss]

As opposed to a real ship, instead of a cartoon?

>.>