Refugees, Immigration, and Other Complexities (split from News)

[LisztesFerenc]

Stop them from coming into Europe.


Tell them Europe can't handle it anymore and threaten to arrest them and sent them back.

  1. They are people who frequently drown, starve or die of thirst trying to get to Europe. You really think threats will stop them when the previous hasn't? To say nothing of how exactly you plan on telling the refugees this. Are you going to advertise in their favorite magazine?

  2. I thought you said you were fine helping them (as long as they didn't cost the local populations)? Now you just want them flat out sent back, which is potentially a death sentence?

[Dashenka]

There's plenty of land nearby where they can go other than Europe. If it's safety they want, go to Saudi Arabia or Jordan. Azerbaijan, Iran, Turkmenistan, all viable options.


These people don't just want to get to safety, they want our wealth. They don't see how much they disrupt normal life in Europe for people who had nothing to do with their shitty situation.

Germans are already complaining about their country being full and with their past, most Germans are VERY carefull in publicly stating this. It has come to a point that even the most conservative of Germans are beginning to get restless as Germany is expected to house 1 million refugees this year alone.

Who's going to pay for that?

I'm still all for helping but on our terms, not on their terms as storming train stations and disrupting our lives.

[LisztesFerenc]

There's plenty of land nearby where they can go other than Europe. If it's safety they want, go to Saudi Arabia or Jordan. Azerbaijan, Iran, Turkmenistan, all viable options.

  Which the possibly exception of Saudi Arabia (whose economics I don't even pretend to understand. Apparently there's no taxes because the state owned oil industry funds everything?), all those nations would appear far less capable of handling an influx if refugees than Europe. Why should they take them in? Because they are closer? Because their skin colour is more similar?

Germans are already complaining about their country being full and with their past, most Germans are VERY carefull in publicly stating this. It has come to a point that even the most conservative of Germans are beginning to get restless as Germany is expected to house 1 million refugees this year alone.

The numbers appears to be contest est. Human Rights Watch says: "The latest estimate of the numbers of people using irregular means to enter Europe this year via the Mediterranean or the Balkans is approximately 340,000"

https://www.hrw.org/news/2015/09/03/refugee-crisis-isnt

[gaggedLouise]

Dasha, please, seriously consider: from 1918 and into the twenties millions of Russians fled west to get out of a home country that had become violently hostile and oppressive to them, for all sorts of reasons, and where you could get shot in the head or sent to a camp just for your opinions or who your parents were. Plus the economy and foodstuffs situation was largely in chaos. It wasn't that different from what people in Syria, Iraq, Libya or Sudan are fleeing from today.

You of all people should be able to see the parallel. Okies, those Russians didn't ask for any support when they arrived in France, Germany, Britain or America, but that was because the idea of a government being morally obliged to help refugees in emergencies like that simply didn't exist at the time. If there had been anything like today's rules in 1920, you'd have had tens of thousands of Russian refugees lining up for some kind of kick-off help and a roof over their heads in Paris and London at the time.

Some of those who fled from Soviet Russia did have a personal or family fortune to pay their way, bribe officials and support them, but most really didn't.  Some had *lost* their family savings, their home and their job during the revolution and the civil war. Millions of those people arrived dirt poor. Just like with many Syrians and Asians today, right?

[Dashenka]

Yes but what about the rest of the people who got into the country as refugees in other ways than the Balkans or the Med. If these were the first and the last refugees into Europe okay, but they are not and will not be last.


This isn't about 1920's or 1940's or whatever, this is about now. The countries these are fleeing too, cannot cope with these large numbers of immigrants at once. Also there is no control over who is coming and where they are going.

There is no regulation, no control, no nothing.

Am I the only one seeing this as a potential risk? Let's say these people end up in Germany or France or fuck knows where.... Nobody knows they are there, they are not getting money because of this. They get hungry and desperate and will need to find ways to get food.

I'm not saying all will end up like this but even if 1 percent of that very low 340.000 people ends up like that, you got 340 potential rapists, robbers, murderers or petty thiefs running around in Europe.

But we only wanted to help them. Good luck explaining that the their victims.


If they come in, controlled and in orderly fashion so that the government know where they are, how many there are, etc, my concern would be a lot, LOT less than it is now.

All this does now, is fuel the right wing extremists even more, make them even stronger and as a result, drive an even bigger wedge between 'the west' and muslims. But I guess I'm the only one who sees this so...

Let's agree to disagree.

[LisztesFerenc]

Am I the only one seeing this as a potential risk? Let's say these people end up in Germany or France or fuck knows where.... Nobody knows they are there, they are not getting money because of this. They get hungry and desperate and will need to find ways to get food.

I'm not saying all will end up like this but even if 1 percent of that very low 340.000 people ends up like that, you got 340 potential rapists, robbers, murderers or petty thiefs running around in Europe.

But we only wanted to help them. Good luck explaining that the their victims.

  Again, appeal to emotions. Its also very hard to explain to a victim that their attacker/abuser will walk because of insufficient evidence. That doesn't mean we should abandon trials.

[Dashenka]

Well okay let's leave out all emotions then. But do warn me the moment the world stops caring about emotions please? I need some time to off myself...

Open up the borders and let everybody get in. Let's deal with the results of it later on when it becomes an issue. For now, close your eyes, sit back and enjoy the ride. It's not going to be a pretty one trust me.

I'm done with this.

[LisztesFerenc]

Well okay let's leave out all emotions then. But do warn me the moment the world stops caring about emotions please? I need some time to off myself...

  You don't have to pretend emotions don't exist, just avoid arguments that rely on situations in which me (or anyone else you are debating) either being under a lot stress or is in an emotionally charged situation. It's fine for you to raise concerns about whether our infrastructure can handle an influx of immigrants and raise concerns about integration and crime. However it becomes emotional manipulation when you ask me to explain to a victim why it happened to them.

  Similarly, it is fine for me to raise the argument that it is humane and this important to offer aid to suffering individuals. But if I were to ask you "Imagine you/your child was an immigrant fleeing from ISIS having lost everything, would you want a chance at a new life in Europe for yourself/your child?" its becomes an attempt to emotionally manipulate you.

[Dashenka]

If you say so.

[Oniya]

This would be the reason not to debate in that fashion.

[gaggedLouise]

Yep, the reason I pointed to Russia after 1917 is because that situation was fairly similiar to what's happening now in several ways - people fleeing from a violent autocracy and civil wars, often without any way of making safe arrangements for their new life in the west before they left - and it was an ongoing situation over several years. And okay, because it's a time Dashenka has some familiarity with - it's her country. But after that I made a point of not saying "imagine it had been you fleeing the Cheka and they had killed your mom..." and so on. Every story of a refugee is unique in that way; it was just the general outlines I wished to bring in.

And given a bad choice, I'd say I do prefer 340 possible rapists here in Europe to millions more people in the south risking to be killed, a hundred thousand more women sold as slaves and their sons put in Quranic schools or turned into boy soldiers, plus millions more people starving...in those countries in the Middle East. It really is freaking bad enough as it is, locking the borders on them everywhere is just not a civilized thing to do.  :-(

[Dashenka]

First of all, the 'good luck explaining that' was never meant personal. If I would be personal you would know, trust me.



Secondly, I agree it's not a civilized thing to do to close the borders but where do you draw the line? There is a couple million more people in those countries. Do we let them all in unconditionally?

[eBadger]

Stop them from coming into Europe.

Tell them Europe can't handle it anymore and threaten to arrest them and sent them back.

Fair enough, your opinion is valid, although it seems like a rather casual way to actively participate in sending millions of people to starvation, murder and subjugation. 

It does, however, legitimize any action they take to not die.  Such as acts of terrorism, or creating NBC weapons, or outright war and murder to obtain resources.  And few societies, given the choice to kill or be killed, choose a quiet death. 

Secondly, I agree it's not a civilized thing to do to close the borders but where do you draw the line? There is a couple million more people in those countries. Do we let them all in unconditionally?

Is there no middle ground between leaving them to die and unconditionally granting admission?

[LisztesFerenc]

First of all, the 'good luck explaining that' was never meant personal. If I would be personal you would know, trust me.

  Okay, what about when you asked me how I would feel if after losing my wife and having my dog run over, whilst needing to pay alimony I couldn't afford I then lost out on a nice affordable house to a refugee couple. Was that not meant to be personal either?

Secondly, I agree it's not a civilized thing to do to close the borders but where do you draw the line? There is a couple million more people in those countries. Do we let them all in unconditionally?

  Somewhere above 0. I don't believe we are at breaking point yet. There will be some difficulties and some logistical problems as they are settled, but I don't buy the idea that at thiss tage we will bankrupt ourselves housing the refugees.

[Dashenka]

Is there no middle ground between leaving them to die and unconditionally granting admission?

Not if you have no idea where they all are.

Somewhere above 0. I don't believe we are at breaking point yet. There will be some difficulties and some logistical problems as they are settled, but I don't buy the idea that at thiss tage we will bankrupt ourselves housing the refugees.

So the breaking point has to get there first? Western Europe will have to be divided to the bone and on the brink of civil war before we say enough is enough?

Great option. I'm moving back to the free sovereign nation of Russia the day that happens...

[LisztesFerenc]

Not if you have no idea where they all are.

  Britain survived the Polish immigration, despite the government at times being clueless about the actual number. Besides, if we want to know where they are, we can process them and get them into the system, and the problem will be solved.

So the breaking point has to get there first?

    No, I never said that. I don't have too much confidence in the foresight of European society and politicians, but I like to think they will be able to tell somewhat in advance when we can feasibly no longer handle a new influx of immigration, so the breaking point would never have to reached, Civil War can be avoided and everyone will be happy and we can even repel those alien invaders.

[Dashenka]

  Britain survived the Polish immigration, despite the government at times being clueless about the actual number. Besides, if we want to know where they are, we can process them and get them into the system, and the problem will be solved.

    No, I never said that. I don't have too much confidence in the foresight of European society and politicians, but I like to think they will be able to tell somewhat in advance when we can feasibly no longer handle a new influx of immigration, so the breaking point would never have to reached, Civil War can be avoided and everyone will be happy and we can even repel those alien invaders.

Did they? Then why did UKIP get so big? Because everybody's so happy about the Polish?

[eBadger]

Not if you have no idea where they all are.

Nothing can be done about immigration without knowing where every refugee is?  I don't follow your logic at all. 

[Dashenka]

I do apologise.

[LisztesFerenc]

Did they?

Yes, and a lot of studies suggested the net economic result was beneficial: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/11210078/Shouting-about-the-economic-benefits-of-migration-isnt-the-way-to-persuade-people.html

Then why did UKIP get so big?

  A lot of factors. Anti-immigration sentiment was one certainly, but so was the euro-skepticism vote, their patriotism and likely the personality of their leader.

[gaggedLouise]

Did they? Then why did UKIP get so big? Because everybody's so happy about the Polish?

Surely British society hasn't cracked open yet under the weight of some Polish low-cost workers, plumbers and students...?


Many of the UKIP folks would blame anything bad on the Poles, Arabs, Turks and other immigrants.

[Zakharra]

 I can honestly say I am with Dashenka on this. A country is responsible to its citizens first, second and third. Refugees, as sad as their story might be, should have NO expectation of receiving any aid other than the bare basics, and to be held in camps if need be. The host nation should not be required to house or care for them as good as their own citizens are, and there comes a point when that nation has a right to say; 'nope. No more. We've taken all we are willing to. Go away' to any new refugees.

LisztesFerenc: Britain at that time could absorb hundreds of thousands to millions of Polish (or any) immigrant/refugees at that time because there would have been more work for them to find. Nowdays much of the work many poor people used to/could do is now done by a few people on heavy machinery. There simply are not the jobs for them to have, so they put a greater strain on the nation.

    No, I never said that. I don't have too much confidence in the foresight of European society and politicians, but I like to think they will be able to tell somewhat in advance when we can feasibly no longer handle a new influx of immigration, so the breaking point would never have to reached, Civil War can be avoided and everyone will be happy and we can even repel those alien invaders.

Why should it even get to that point anyways? As sad as it is for the refugees, the EU should not be required to take in millions of undocumented refugees 'just because'. Even for humanitarian/ethnic reasons. Pardon my language, but fuck that reasoning. Humanitarian and ethics don't mean shit with the security and safety of a nation and its citizens when you're asking/demanding that they take in tens to hundreds of millions of foreigners. No one knows how many refugees the EU could take and if people like you had their way, the EU would likely blow past that limit by a couple of million because you'd rather be humanitarian and helpful, even to the extent of infringing upon the quality of life of your own citizens.

As for turning the future refugees back, even if it means they will die, too bad. That's life. There comes a point when a nation HAS to say; 'no more' or it will cease being a nation with a unregulated or unrestricted influx of refugees. If you bring in too many foreigners at once, you have a very high risk of losing your nation when the characteristic culture and society of that nation changes. Throw in several million refugees that have a hard time adapting to Western cultures and you have an explosive mix.

[Dashenka]

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34142512

Happening now.

I rest my case.

In other news the White House stated the migration problem was a European problem, the US would not get involved in, but that Europe would have to remind themselves this was about human beings.


So the U.... *bites tongue*

I'm going to leave this conversation. Those migrants are perfectly safe and sound in Hungarian shelters but they refuse to go there because it's not what they want? Well I got news for them, a couple hundred of kilometers east of where they are, there are people trapped in bombed cities with nowhere to go who'd be desperate to get in a Hungarian refuge camp because that's where they are safe.

[LisztesFerenc]

Those migrants are perfectly safe and sound in Hungarian shelters

  Ummm, you got a citation for that?

  Because
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-33091597
https://www.opendemocracy.net/can-europe-make-it/annabel-tremlett/hungary's-future-antiimmigration-antimulticulturalism-and-antiro
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/apr/29/hungary-pm-death-penalty-work-camps-for-immigrants-viktor-orban

  I am very confused as to how you can associate "Hungarian" and "Safe for immigrants". Unless the game is "name two things that are polar opposites". Government sponsored anti-immigration campaign, violent attacks against those seen as immigrants and our nutjob PM proposing work camps for refugees. Yeah, I can't see why they'd like to pass up this sweet deal either.

Why should it even get to that point anyways?

  It won't, I shouldn't have even addressed the possibility.

[Dashenka]

There is no war, there is food and there is water.

I'm not going into any discussion any further. They should be thanking God that they're safe from whatever it was they were fleeing from and that Europe has so welcomingly accepted them. Now they begin to demand stuff already?

I'm done. Goodnight.