Seriously E? No "Arizona Anti-Immigrant Law" thread?

[RP7466]

I am still trying to figure out what the problem is?

Is everybody ignoring the words "reasonable suspicion". Wich makes it not a whole lot different than any other law we have. If you are doing somthing suspicious and a police officer asks you for ID you have to show them, and yes even if you are a white male. And suspicious includes walking on the sidewalk, sober, late at night.

The argument of profiling is a joke

(spell check isnt working so excuse the errors that are sure to be in there, im mechanical not a good speller)

[Oniya]

The issue of racial profiling comes with the fact that a sizable percentage of illegal immigrants in Arizona are, in fact, Hispanic.  When the police are looking for someone they suspect of doing something, physical description, which includes race, is one of the ways they try to limit the number of people they question.  For example, if the bank robber has red hair, they aren't going to look twice at a blond.  If the bank robber is dark-skinned, they won't bother detaining an Asian man.  If the cops are looking for an illegal immigrant, they will be more likely to question someone who 'looks like' an illegal immigrant - despite the reality that an illegal immigrant could come from anywhere, including Norway (chosen for having a typical phenotype as far from 'Hispanic' as I could think of).

[RP7466]

what percentage of illegal immigrants in Arizona are from Mexico do you suppose, the argument of not all of them are hispanic is like arguing that cleaning dog shit doesn't really suck because sometimes you get one that's dried up and doesn't smell.

And that doesn't take into account the gang activity. And no its not just a stereotype, my best friend from highschool teaches at a charter school down there, and is always talking about the students in his class that are illegal immigrants and some of the altercations that happen at school.

So I'm still looking for where the problem is.

[Oniya]

(Just as a note, I'm not arguing right or wrong on this, just putting forward what the 'problem' is, according to the arguments I've heard.)

The problem with the fact that the police are likely to be looking more strongly at Hispanics when trying to find illegal immigrants is that there is a sizable population of legal immigrants that are Hispanic in that area.  As the police are human, we can assume that there will be some number of errors made.  The question is - is it better to inappropriately detain a legal immigrant (false positive or Type I error), or to miss detaining an illegal immigrant (false negative or type II error)?

To this point, the US legal system has been based on the premise of minimizing type I errors (innocent until proven guilty).  'Racial profiling' is more likely to increase type I errors.

[Pumpkin Seeds]

Suspicious activity shouldn't be your skin color or use of a language.  Racial profiling is a joke, just happens to be a cruel one.

By the way, what does a hispanic look like?

[Lyell]

Personally I'm suprized a terrorist attack hasen't already used the mexican border.

People are prejudiced. It's in our nature to judge based on history, memory and environment. There will always be a bias twords what illegal immigrants look and sound like because of those three things. That someone 'fits the bill' of an illegal alien is no different than someone fitting the bill of a suspect description.

[Pumpkin Seeds]

If you are surprised by terrorists not coming across the Mexican border, then you are not well informed about immigration policies and border protection.  The border between Mexico and the United States is the most defended and patrolled in the United States.  This as opposed to Canada, which is where 9/11 terrorists came through, and temporary visas which are given to students and some workers.  A person planning any sort of attack would look at the border patrol, check points, militia and vast deserts that claims the lives of hundreds each year with some problem.  Easier to fly in as a tourist or student.

As for the remark about fitting the bill of a suspect, you are indeed correct.  Which is why police are not allowed to perform unwarranted searches and arrests of individuals.  Profiling has been rejected as a valid form of police investigation time and time again. 

[Jude]

Even if Racial Profiling isn't in the law and suspicion is defined in some other fashion, of course people who look like potential offenders are going to draw the eyes of the police more often than those who do not when everyone knows that the illegal immigration problem there is one of a Hispanic nature.

That's the problem with actively seeking out illegal immigrants by using the police force:  there's no behavior that qualifies as an outward indication of illegal immigration that actually occurs in a public setting.  The only way to prove someone is or isn't an illegal all revolves around inspection of documentation.  So what act that a police officer observes could possibly hint that the person is here illegally?

Sure, there are indicators that would make the people you ask for their papers more likely to be here illegally, but they are not related to criminal behavior or illegal immigration itself, just correlative factors.  If you're speaking Spanish, have a certain color of skin, and... Yeah, goes right back to racial profiling.

I agree that the comparison of the law to Nazi Germany is absolutely ridiculous.  I'm not even sure if this is unreasonable search and seizure.  What I am sure of is, I wouldn't want to be a Legal Hispanic Immigrant, Resident, or Citizen living in Mexico right now.  I wouldn't feel very welcome knowing that I could, at any time, be asked to relinquish my paperwork to prove I have the right to be in this country, when people of other races won't have to deal with the same level of scrutiny.

How is that not institutionalized racism?

[OldSchoolGamer]

Comparing the law to Nazi Germany is, I agree, absurd.  The law is still bad policy.  The reason we have illegal immigration is because employers in the U.S. hire illegal immigrants.  Cut the problem off where the demand lies: improve enforcement of existing labor law, and toughen penalties on those who knowingly hire illegals.

Police already have too many excuses to be nosy.

[Wolfy]

Reasonable suspicion is a subjective thing.


Which means what one person considers reasonably suspicious could be perfectly normal to someone else.

[Wolfy]

Also, because it fits into the topic:

[RubySlippers]

What's wrong exactl;y with racial profiling when it fits the problems going on? If the border is with Mexico and most illegals in Arizona are likely Mexican or from other countries that are Hispanic then they are a group more likely to be illegal.

This political correctness is a plague if your breaking our laws and ILLEGAL immigrants are get the hell out of the US your breaking the law you ,to me, have no case. Period.

No law abiding person should fear the police asking for proof your here if its in the rounds of their normal duties and its for a legitimate reason they are talking to you, if yiour here legally just show your ID. Simple. The law was worded and designed to minimize such issues.

[Jude]

Because racial profiling is enforcing particular laws against a certain segment of the population with greater zeal than on other segments of the population; i.e. institutionalized racism.  It's the opposite of impartiality and justice.  And, one of the arguments always given in favor of sealing up the border, is that terrorists could cross there.  If you racially profiled against Hispanics, it would actually increase the chance of that happening by making the police there focus on a certain profile to the detriment of anything that doesn't fit that profile.

[Serephino]

Okay, so it's perfectly fine to expect legal immigrants to carry their papers on them if like say... they're walking to the corner store?  I live near enough to a restaurant that when we go there we walk, and don't take anything with us other than cash, especially if all we did was order a pizza and we're going to pick it up.  So what happens if a Mexican in just going to the store down the block and gets stopped but doesn't have ID? 

[Wolfy]

What's wrong exactl;y with racial profiling when it fits the problems going on? If the border is with Mexico and most illegals in Arizona are likely Mexican or from other countries that are Hispanic then they are a group more likely to be illegal.

This political correctness is a plague if your breaking our laws and ILLEGAL immigrants are get the hell out of the US your breaking the law you ,to me, have no case. Period.

No law abiding person should fear the police asking for proof your here if its in the rounds of their normal duties and its for a legitimate reason they are talking to you, if yiour here legally just show your ID. Simple. The law was worded and designed to minimize such issues.

Racial is two letters away from Racist.

Not that that stops people from doing both. >_>

[Trieste]

Hug is two letters away from shrug, but that doesn't mean they're connected. Sheesh.

[Wolfy]

Hug is two letters away from shrug, but that doesn't mean they're connected. Sheesh.

*shrugs Trieste*

:D

What I was saying is that Racial Profiling and Being Racist is basically the same thing when used. "Oh look, he's mexican. Obviously he's here illegally or doing something Illegal." "Oh look, he's black, quick, call some back up! D:", etc, etc.

<_< Racial profiling isn't new...and it shouldn't be condoned, like this law allows.

[Phaia]

Using the decidily liberal New York Times as the only scource can lead to a skewed view!!

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/politics/A-carefully-crafted-immigration-law-in-Arizona-92136104.html

A few points I would like to make. The Arizona House and senate passed the bill after very intnese debate.

So first off lets stop blaming the governor completely!

Also a majority of Arizona VOTERS support the bill.

450,000 illegal aliens out of a population of 6.5 million, that is about 1 in 14 people in the state are illegal...ILLEGAL!!

Illegal aliens cannot own poperty so no poperty taxs, no school tasxs yet they send the children to schools and use the rescources that taxs pay for.
Arizona has a state income tax, which means that nearly 7% of the people that Do not pay taxs.

All of this has lead the VOTERS of the state to react, If this law needs to be repealed then the Illegal aliens should vote against it...oh wait they CAN'T VOTE!

I Vote every election so I have to ask How many of you do as well?? I take pride in the rights we have and how givinga  people we are. But frankly Illegal is just that Illegal... and as for limiting the immigration numbers there are reasons for that.


A lot of you seem to misunderstand the full content of the law!!


"For any lawful contact made by a law enforcement official or a law enforcement agency…where reasonable suspicion exists that the person is an alien who is unlawfully present in the United States, a reasonable attempt shall be made, when practicable, to determine the immigration status of the person…"


"That means the officer is already engaged in some detention of an individual because he's violated some other law," says Kris Kobach, a University of Missouri Kansas City Law School professor who helped draft the measure. "The most likely context where this law would come into play is a traffic stop."

So  police officer stops a car for a traffic voliation and asks for some id, the driver does not have any nor does anyone else in the car....weellll that would seem to me to reason to check on thier status!! But I am just a blonde!!

Phaia

[Jude]

You complain that someone else cited a liberal source, then you cite a conservative source... Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

p.s. If the law literally only requires state authorities to check their immigration status if they're suspicious and involved in another policing activity, then I see no problem with it on principle.

I'm still worried how it'll work in practice.

[Phaia]

Yes I used a conservative scource to show there are other views. So far only the liberal views had been presented.

I tend toward a more conservative view. Though I have my liberal moments, such as voting for Al Gore in 2000 and against Bush in 2004!

http://www.azcentral.com/news/election/azelections/articles/2010/04/19/20100419arizona-immigration-bill-passes.html

as ya can see there was intense debate over the bill...yet it passed both houses!!

read some of the forum linked to the above article. it seems a lot of arizonian's [sp] favor the bill.

Phaia

[Trieste]

There is a difference between "a lot" and "a very vocal group which may or may not be a minority". Forums tend to attract the latter more than the former, I've found.

[Remiel]

Actually, according to a Rasmussen poll, 64% of Arizonans polled support the bill as do 60% of pollees nationwide.  It is clear that most Americans believe that the federal government has failed in its responsibility to regulate immigration, to the point where states like Arizona need to take the matter into their own hands.

That being said, Arizona Pima County sheriff Clarence Dupnik makes a convincing argument why the new law is a bad idea, and, in fact, may even be unconstitutional.

What the law now does is put us in a position where we are damned if we do and damned if we don’t, because on one hand we get sued by people who think we are illegally profiling and there is a clause in the law which I’ve never heard of in any other law, and I have been the Sheriff here for thirty years, that says any citizen who doesn’t think we are enforcing this law can sue us. That is just outrageous. It’s an anti-law enforcement law in my opinion. Puts us in an impossible situation. It puts us in an impossible situation with the Hispanic community. What they’ve done is driven a wedge between us and the Hispanic community. We depend on our community, Hispanics especially, for information, for cooperation in our crime-fighting efforts. What we really need to stop illegal immigration is more federal assistance on securing that border and we desperately need reform of immigration laws.

[Aiden]

Let illegal immigrants find ways to pay their taxes and dues to the government and leave them alone.

I bet if they were given the chance to get a driver's license, pay their car insurance and be able to get legitimate work they would. It is sad when these people come over for a better life only to be treated like shit by people who can consider themselves "good Christians" 

[Serephino]

Oh, so they can only be checked when doing things like getting pulled over for speeding.  Wow, I can't see how that would be a bad idea.  I mean, it wouldn't give illegals an incentive to try and run from the police or anything.....

[Brandon]

Pretty much the only thing Im going to say on this is, the pruposed law doesnt work as is. I am and have always been against illegal aliens coming into the country and Im also against the idea of Amnesty that has been purposed time and time again. Breaking the law and not being punished for it just isnt the answer IMO.

Legal immigration needs to be open as well though.

The idea of racial profiling is kind of a duh argument to me but how can it be avoided? You have people coming in from another country, if theyre coming from mexico they'll probably be of hispanic descent, if theyre coming from England they'll probably be of Caucasian descent, if theyre coming from Africa they'll probably be of African descent.

I believe that something needs to be done to stop illegal immigrants from coming into our country and getting a free pass but this bill just doesnt work as is.

Edit: I am also one of the Americans that agrees that the Federal government has not taken sufficient steps to stop Illegal immigration