Liberty 2012

[Mr Self Destruct]

Despite your own personal political leanings, this message is quite clear and one that needs to be heard.

http//youtu.be/VuCaWYvpVZg

But as the people in the video are under 18, you'll have to adjust the link to see it by adding a colon after the http for it to take you to YouTube.

I hope everyone can understand just how important this is to these kids.  This is their future.  The decision in November is for them. 

Let's make the right one.

[Stattick]

Running commentary while watching the vid:


Yeah... that's it, we should all get our political advice from teenagers.  ::)

Also, overly dramatic music is overly dramatic.

Hey, that kid can't talk about Saint Reagan! He wasn't even alive when Reagan was president.



LMAO at the girl crying while holding the flag!

[Mr Self Destruct]

These kids are learning whats at stake.  I remember when I was their age and my eyes were first opened to what was going on in the greater world around me.  I knew that I would have to make a decision at some point, as to where my loyalties lie.  These kids have made their decision and I can't help but respect them for it.

That music is nothing compared to the attack ads run by the Obama administration.

Freedom of speech ensures that these kids can talk about whomever they want, no matter how the left tries to limit free speech.

What's funny about watching your country and its values being corrupted?

[Stattick]

What's funny about watching your country and its values being corrupted?

*sigh* There you go again.

[Mr Self Destruct]

It's going on all around us.  And I can't seriously believe that I'm the only one seeing it.

But that isn't the point of this thread.  That video is pretty inspiring, and it's refreshing to see young people get involved in politics again.  There isn't much of that these days.

[Callie Del Noire]

I see a jingoistic effort to tug at my heart strings and a call to ignore the actions of a party who in the last year tried to engineer a crisis that in part cost us part of our credit rating as a nation, that has pushed for the removal of patient privacy, curtailed reproductive choice while refusing to accept that they are persecuting one gender.

I have seen a party sooooo tied up in knots that we have candidates running who insist that rape doesn't cause pregnancy (when it's LEGITIMATE), who refuse to debate any issue they think is important and refuse to meet halfway. Who while insisting they want smaller government, see NOTHING wrong in invading a woman's body to ensure she is properly traumatized for the sin of wanting an abortion. We have men wearing the flag colors, calling themselves constitutionalists while declaring slavery wasn't that bad or that we deport all Muslims.

Get rid of the Tea party, stop distracting issues with moral conservative stands, accept that EVERYONE has to pay taxes (and more of them) and admit that the road to recovery requires a stronger education system, less corporate welfare and a bit more regulation in some areas and make politicians accountable for their actions.

Break up the banks, reinstate Glass-Steagall and the break up big Media. Too few control too much.

[Serephino]

Ummm, excuse me, who ran up 13 trillion dollars in deficit?  Who gave the big banks the first bailout with no strings attached that ended up being given out as bonuses?  Who started two wars we couldn't afford?  Who decided to try and fix the recession by just sending everyone in the country a check?  Who wants to make abortion illegal, even if the woman is raped?  Who tried to pass such legislation several times?  Who did pass legislation which forces a woman to have an invasive ultra sound and listen to religious slanted bullshit before getting an abortion?  Who promised to repeal 'Obamacare' right away, but ended up too busy legislating womens' reproductive rights and cutting social welfare to the bone, screwing over all the people who lost their jobs even more?  Who held the entire government hostage over Bush tax cuts for the wealthy?  Who is trying to trample all over religion freedom for those of us who are not Christian? 

The answer to all of these questions is not just political viewpoint.  It is fact.  It is what really happened.  President Bush signed off on the first bailout.  President Bush started the Iraq clusterfuck that spread our military way too thin.  President Bush came into office with a $200k surplus, and left with a $13.7 trillion deficit.  President Bush flushed billions down the hole by mailing everyone a stimulus check that didn't do a damn bit of good. 

Most Republican candidates from 2010 promised to repeal 'Obamacare' the very first thing if they were elected.  What did they do instead?  Well, first, the ensured the Bush tax cuts for the top 1% were safe.  Then they started attacking reproductive rights under the guise of religious freedom.  I'm sorry, but I'm Pagan, and if I want to use birth control, and I need my insurance to cover it, I don't give two shits how my employer feels about it.  If it is against my employer's beliefs to use birth control, then he or she is free to exercise that belief on his/her own body.  My employer has no fucking right to tell me what I can or cannot do because of his/her beliefs.  All that should matter when it comes to my personal life and my body are MY beliefs.

Small rant aside, two states passed laws where any woman seeking an abortion must have an ultrasound, and must look at it.  That is called 'slut shaming', and if you ask me, it's not a very Christian thing to do.  It was originally supposed to be a transvaginal ultrasound with the logic that if you consented to be penetrated with a man's penis to get yourself knocked up, you have no right to object to being penetrated with a little plastic wand.  Fortunately, that part was struck down at least. 

The government almost got shut down over the Bush tax cuts.  President Obama and the Democrats only wanted to keep it for people making less than $200k a year.  Seriously, if that isn't considered being wealthy, how the hell am I not getting more welfare?  If $200k a year is poor, oh god, the poverty line is a pipe dream for me.  We'd need to come up with something lower than poverty for me.  Anyway... the budget didn't get passed until the Democrats caved and renewed all the Bush tax cuts for everyone, and they passed it last minute.  Conservatives wanted the government shut down, having no fucking clue what a disaster that would've been.  Teachers, police and fireman, postman, garbage men... all out of work, with the people responsible still getting paid.  Oh, yeah, that's fair...

[Mr Self Destruct]

Care to explain what you're referring to with 'actions of a party who in the last year tried to engineer a crisis that in part cost us our credit rating as a nation'?

The rape issue was wrongfully described by one person on the extreme end of things.  Don't blame an entire party for the actions of one.  Where as Akin's comments on the legitimacy of rape are out there, his own party came out against him because of it. 

And while you're rapid-firing accusations, let's talk about abortion.  Put yourself in the place of a child in the womb.  Who gets to say at what point that life becomes life?  When there are a multitude of options to prevent pregnancy (condoms, birth control, the morning after pill, and *gasp* abstaining from sex), why should someone still irresponsible enough to get pregnant be allowed to take a life?

Granted, there is a definite exception for rape.  When you talk about cruel violations of a woman's body, that doesn't get much more cruel or much more violating.

And woah...who, exactly, is declaring slavery wasn't that bad or that we need to deport Muslims?  The only politician I've heard talking about 'wanting to put us in chains' is Joe Biden decrying Republicans as anti-freedom.

The Tea Party was formed to stop the violations of the Constitution and the rise of this monolithic administration that ignores the will of the people. 
 

[Callie Del Noire]

Oh yeah, and depending on the state some of those kids live in, some of them would have to prove they are American citizens or risk getting turned over to ICE. My niece is part of that group, though her mother's family has been across the Rio Grand several times over the century. Part of the family has been American for longer than a bunch of people who wrote those laws.

I find it ironic now that these AMERICAN constitutionalists are putting out the same sort of signs their grandparents and great-grandparents saw. When a certain Northern politician ignores the history of his own past (Irish American doing to others what 'N.I.N.A did to their forebears) I am ashamed of my party

[OldSchoolGamer]

These kids are learning whats at stake.  I remember when I was their age and my eyes were first opened to what was going on in the greater world around me.  I knew that I would have to make a decision at some point, as to where my loyalties lie.  These kids have made their decision and I can't help but respect them for it.

That music is nothing compared to the attack ads run by the Obama administration.

Freedom of speech ensures that these kids can talk about whomever they want, no matter how the left tries to limit free speech.

What's funny about watching your country and its values being corrupted?

And Obama EATS KITTENS too.  Yes.  And defenestrates puppies.  And tears the wings off butterflies.  And secretly wipes his ass with the American flag when no one's looking.  Really, he does.

[Stattick]

And Obama EATS KITTENS too.  Yes.  And defenestrates puppies.  And tears the wings off butterflies.  And secretly wipes his ass with the American flag when no one's looking.  Really, he does.

I heard he kills puppies for satan... and tries to trick Republicans into eating his cockroach souffle.

[Mr Self Destruct]

Funny stuff, gentlemen.  Really.

[Stattick]

Funny stuff, gentlemen.  Really.

Actually, I'm just a shill. See, I get paid every time I mention the RPG Kill Puppies for Satan, and its supplement Cockroach Souffle. So let me thank you for making me some money. *walks off, whistling in the dark*

[Callie Del Noire]

Care to explain what you're referring to with 'actions of a party who in the last year tried to engineer a crisis that in part cost us our credit rating as a nation'?

Obstructionism to the point that the impending government shut down has been cited by a LOT of groups as part of our reduced credit rating

The rape issue was wrongfully described by one person on the extreme end of things.  Don't blame an entire party for the actions of one.  Where as Akin's comments on the legitimacy of rape are out there, his own party came out against him because of it. 

Yet he is currently enjoying party support and Superpac support NOW. And he isn't the only one of the Tea Party types to insist that rape is overstated or try to redefine it so date rape, and other issues aren't legally rape anymore. Even to the point of incest.

And while you're rapid-firing accusations, let's talk about abortion.  Put yourself in the place of a child in the womb.  Who gets to say at what point that life becomes life?  When there are a multitude of options to prevent pregnancy (condoms, birth control, the morning after pill, and *gasp* abstaining from sex), why should someone still irresponsible enough to get pregnant be allowed to take a life?

Ah.. But reproductive measures ARE being curtailed. We have planned parenthood being defunded. It has been CLEARLY stated that employers religious rights matter more than employees. IE birth control is NOT a something that we should have in health care, no matter the reason. Even if you need it for actual health reasons!  We have a group who have pushed the legal definition of life to the point in one state that it is a TECHNICAL perpetual state of pregnancy for all women who aren't undergoing menopause. And in other states its to the point that a woman could be investigated for MANSLAUGHTER for undergoing a spontaneous miscarriage. God help her if she has history of smoking, drinking, drug use or working in hazardous field am she could be assumed to purposely trying to miscarry.

And woah...who, exactly, is declaring slavery wasn't that bad or that we need to deport Muslims?  The only politician I've heard talking about 'wanting to put us in chains' is Joe Biden decrying Republicans as anti-freedom.

The Tea Party was formed to stop the violations of the Constitution and the rise of this monolithic administration that ignores the will of the people. 

Lets see. That little bit the Tea party has been going on about that let's any child born within the US be a citizen?  It's not some law they are talking about undoing.  It is the 14TH Amendment!   Joe Boernor (sp?) and other tea party types have danced around saying it outright but basically they are wanting to make sure that the constitution only applies to whom they want to protect. Which is them. 

The very fact you're on this board means you at LEAST consort with folks they disapprove of and heaven forbid you are like me and ask the State chairman of the GOP why they are lying about their candidate and letting him plagiarize from another GOP member to look good to the media. I'm pretty much persona non grata despite my brothers standing in the party. Apparently I'm supposed to be a good little veteran and shut up while they shit on my brother.

[Ironwolf85]

The Tea Party was formed to stop the violations of the Constitution and the rise of this monolithic administration that ignores the will of the people. 

Thing is Dark clown that's partly bullshit. Obama's administration is not monolithic, if it was it would be far more effective at doing what it tries to do. Moreover the Will of the People has been ignored soundly since 2001. Yet the republican party did nothing because they were in power. suddenly they were out on their ass, and NOW they start companing about the liberties of the common man.

But on the rest I agree with Callie, the main problem is too much is controled by too few. R or D that is not fair.
we can fight and debate over the morality of abortion, and gay marrage AFTER this country has been put on the road to recovery, and I don't mean band aid measures or symbolic gestures. or any of that "if we get rid of obama everything will magicly be fixed." hyperbole. I mean INCREASING taxes on the top 1% of america, nutting up, and investing in our future, not the present. Schools are needed, we are being laughed at by the rest of the developed world for having the worst education system, health, life expentency, and more. They've been laughing since No child left behind.

I lived through the NCLB policy, and basicly had a lazy bully chained to my leg. I watched my teachers punished when some guy slept through a test, I watched them try to teach with textbooks that were outdated in 1998, then have their budget slashed for underpreforming students.

[Vekseid]

It's going on all around us.  And I can't seriously believe that I'm the only one seeing it.

Because you claim to hold knowledge that you don't actually have. Your comment about China's treasury holdings in the other thread, for example.

You spout things based off of what you think you know, when it's flat out wrong... what do you expect?

But that isn't the point of this thread.  That video is pretty inspiring, and it's refreshing to see young people get involved in politics again.  There isn't much of that these days.

"We must defend our culture, our language, and our borders!"

...that sentiment sounds so familiar. It was inspiring then, too.

You can inspire for many causes, of course.

[Tamhansen]

Ok. Question of fact ( Yay pop quiz) What is the official national language of the U.S.A?
A. English
B. Spanish
C. American
D. None of the above?

Actually it's none at all. And there was a reason for it. English was chosen as the lingua Franca of the US as it was the most common language at the time, but it was left up to the people to decide what to speak.

Stop immigration? Fine, let's finally get rid of all those people whose grandparents or great grandparents came from outside the USA. Hmm, hey where'd everyone go?

As for protect our culture? Which flicking culture A Texan and a West Virginian are as culturally similar as a swede and a Pakistani. The US is a melting pot of cultures, and this is mostly due to immigration.

So basically, the tea party wants to protect America's culture, by stopping the one thing that made that culture.

Well at least the tea party stays true to it's name. Hot air rises to the top. And with airheads like Bachmann, Palin and Akin, he'll they can only rise higher

[Valerian]

And woah...who, exactly, is declaring slavery wasn't that bad or that we need to deport Muslims?  The only politician I've heard talking about 'wanting to put us in chains' is Joe Biden decrying Republicans as anti-freedom.

This was discussed in another thread:

And the stupid keeps coming...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/10/08/charlie-fuqua-arkansas-candidate-death-penalty-rebellious-children_n_1948490.html?ir=Religion&ncid=edlinkusaolp00000009
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2214020/Republican-state-rep-Jon-Hubbarb-calls-slavery-blessing-Charlie-Fuqua-advocates-deporting-Muslims-books.html?ito=feeds-newsxml

The rape issue was wrongfully described by one person on the extreme end of things.  Don't blame an entire party for the actions of one.  Where as Akin's comments on the legitimacy of rape are out there, his own party came out against him because of it. 

At this point, there's really no idea or stance that is too far "out there" for the current, radical GOP to embrace.  Yes, the party leadership initially decried what Akin said, but as mentioned above, they've since welcomed him back to the fold.

The list of Republicans 'on the extreme end of things' currently encompasses most of the party.  You can't really dismiss them as outliers anymore.

[Moraline]

Alright, I'm not an American and I can't claim to know all the issues here as seen by the American people but even I know that the Tea Party is one of the most absurd and ridiculous political farces ever created.

That video that was linked is nothing more then a political advertisement. Those aren't teenagers speaking what they think, those are actors paid by a slick PR/Marketing company to make a political ad.


This is the youtube channel host of that video:  http://www.youtube.com/user/networktalkradio

This is the man that owns it:

http://www.grahamledger.tk/
Graham Ledger
Candidate for
Board Member; San Dieguito Union High School District

Biographical Highlights

    Occupation: Parent/Businessman/Newsman
    PTA member
    Big Brothers & Sisters - MAN OF THE YEAR
    Board, Fr. Joe's Village - Tousaint, Homeless Children
    Community Leader - 858 Tea Party
    Honorary Deputy Sheriff
    Constitutionalist


My conclusion about this video -
It doesn't need to be heard/watched.
It possess no political or philosophical value.
It contains nothing insightful.
It is a TV Commercial that spews forth marketing propaganda for a man running for a political office.

[elone]

From the video:

"No more social programs"

Would that include SSI, food stamps, educational benefits, health care, headstart, etc., etc., How about veterans benefits, isn't that a social program? Of course, let's cut everything that helps individuals and keep everything that helps corporations, businesses, CEO's (Romney's of the world)  and the like.

The video is an effective propaganda piece only for those narrow minded enough to not see it for what it is. TRASH.

[OldSchoolGamer]

From the video:

"No more social programs"

Would that include SSI, food stamps, educational benefits, health care, headstart, etc., etc., How about veterans benefits, isn't that a social program? Of course, let's cut everything that helps individuals and keep everything that helps corporations, businesses, CEO's (Romney's of the world)  and the like.

The video is an effective propaganda piece only for those narrow minded enough to not see it for what it is. TRASH.

Gee, wouldn't that mean no more public education, too?  Wouldn't that be ironic?  Another Tea Partier sawing off the branch on which he sits...

[Ironwolf85]

hey a teenager for the policy of no school...

[elone]

The Tea Party  loves the Constitution, except for things like the birthright to American citizenship.

[Callie Del Noire]

The Tea Party  loves the Constitution, except for things like the birthright to American citizenship.

Not true, they think it should only apply to them. Everyone else need not apply.

[Hemingway]

"Less taxes".

"Smaller government".

"A strong military".

I'm fairly certain I don't have to explain that militaries need to be paid for, and where the money to do so comes from.

Well, it's just more of the same jingoistic garbage, isn't it? It's the sort of thing I'm slowly giving up arguing against, because it's not even based in reality. It's really just sad - not as in pathetic, but genuinely sad - that people can manipulated into voting going so thoroughly against their own interests. I mean, I don't know what background these kids have - they could all come from extremely wealthy families. But to my knowledge that's not the reality of movements like the Tea Party. Yet they don't understand that what they need is precisely what they despise. It's called socialism. But it's hard to convince people of that when words no longer have any meaning.

[elone]

Another part of the Constitution the Tea Party would like to change. From a local newspaper in Virginia.

"The June 26 meeting of the 99th District Tea Party in Lively drew a pair of Republican heavy hitters: Attorney General and gubernatorial candidate Ken Cuccinelli and Scott Lingamfelter, current state delegate and candidate for lieutenant governor.

Attorney General Ken Cuccinelli was one of the first to file an action against the Affordable Health Care Act when it was signed into law by the President.

Before getting into the Supreme Court case, Cuccinelli noted that the only real checks on the courts are Congress’s authority to eliminate lower courts and to be extremely acute when approving nominations for judgeships. He said he would like to see the law changed to require judges to be reappointed rather than appointed to life terms on the bench."

Another Tea Party gem:

Ballot Box to Bullet Box?

The key part:

"We have a chance to fight this battle at the ballot box, before we have to resort to the bullet box. But that is the beauty of our second amendment right. I am glad all of us enjoy our firearms for hunting, but make no mistake, that was not the intent of the Founding Fathers. Our second amendment right was to guard against tyranny."

Got to love it, shoot them if we lose.

[Stattick]

"We have a chance to fight this battle at the ballot box, before we have to resort to the bullet box. But that is the beauty of our second amendment right. I am glad all of us enjoy our firearms for hunting, but make no mistake, that was not the intent of the Founding Fathers. Our second amendment right was to guard against tyranny."

Got to love it, shoot them if we lose.

Wasn't it Sarah Palin and Glen Beck over on Fox News that started with the drumbeat of "shoot them" a few years back? Well, to be fair, they stopped with that sort of rhetoric once Democratic Senator Gabrielle Giffords got shot in the head.

[Serephino]

What really gets me is that if I, a private citizen, say anything like I'd very much want to shoot candidate x if he/she were to get elected, I'd be in some serious hot water.  What the hell...  I could just be saying it out of frustration and not really meaning to do it, it wouldn't matter.  That didn't sound like that woman was venting out of frustration...

[MasterMischief]

Teens for Obama - Barack Obama

Let's Do It Again - Teens in Orlando Making a Difference!!!

Let me guess, these teens are not worthy of the same respect because they are 'Obama-worshipers'.

[Trieste]

This is kind of off topic to the video but I'm going to post it anyway: I'm really embarrassed by some of the posters in this thread. While I think that voting for Romney would be completely nonsensical if only for the fact that he changes positions every five minutes, I can refute the candidate and the party without aiming my attacks and sarcasm at a poster who disagrees with me.

I don't have to agree with Dark Clown - in fact, I really, really don't - but the level of sarcasm and snide smugness is really sickening. That last post by MasterMischief does little other than throw DC's words back at him from a thread that was angry, dirty, and antagonistic. Just because we can't delete our posts in P&R for integrity's sake doesn't mean we shouldn't understand when unwise words should be set aside and the discussion should move on. And don't get me wrong: it's not just MasterMischief who's behaving embarrassingly. I'm seriously too put off by the tone to want to agree with some of these posts, even though my political views line up. It's not funny. It's not achieving anything. It's kind of asinine. Sometimes it's downright mean.

Hemingway and Moraline's posts addressed the video and the party ... that's pretty much how it should stay, in my opinion.

That's about all I have to say about that.

[Mithlomwen]

Teens for Obama - Barack Obama

Let's Do It Again - Teens in Orlando Making a Difference!!!

Let me guess, these teens are not worthy of the same respect because they are 'Obama-worshipers'.

Completely uncalled for. 

If the subject cannot be discussed civilly, without the snide remarks and sarcasm directed at other members, this thread will be locked.   We are all adults here, I think it's time everyone starts acting like it. 

[MasterMischief]

I apologize, Dark Clown.

[OldSchoolGamer]

We don't need slick videos and tired rhetoric.  What we need, as a nation, is a calm, rational co-examination of the facts in America today.  The facts are (to me, at any rate, rather self-evident:

1) We are in an economic crisis.  Measure it by unemployment, by the lack of economic growth, by spiraling debt levels.
2) Contrary to conservative rhetoric, this crisis is not caused by the rich not being rich enough.  Corporate profits and the share of wealth held by the upper class are at or very near all-time highs.  If the rich being richer led to prosperity, we'd be there.  It would look like 1965.  So the major talking points of the Right--the rich not being rich enough, more tax cuts, etc.--hold no water.
3) Contrary to liberal rhetoric, this crisis is not caused by the government not being big enough and not spending enough money.  The government is currently spending about a third more money than it gets by taxes.  Monetary policy is so loose as to be a joke that stopped being funny long ago. 
4) The main proximate culprit is free trade.  Decades ago, someone got the bright idea that foreigners selling goods in America was a right rather than a privilege.  Thus opened the door to American workers competing against foreign slave labor.  The virtues of competition were extolled, without regard for the other side of that coin: competitions have rules.  It's not every person for themselves.
5) Another major, less spoken of cause is oil depletion.  To keep America growing requires cheap energy.  The price of oil has tripled in the past decade.  Price increases are how shortages are manifested in market economies.

So the issue isn't "reclaiming liberty."  Slick videos aren't going to bring back manufacturing to America, nor put the tens of billions of barrels of oil back into the ground necessary for $1.59 a gallon gas and fins on cars to return. 

Here's a challenge for Dark Clown (and the other neoconservatives here): how about some fact-based, numbers-driven arguments?  Try making an argument with cites and facts and figures to support you.  Prove to us that the problem is that Bill Gates and George Soros and T. Boone Pickens aren't rich enough and that the American worker is overpaid.

[Callie Del Noire]

Well said oldschool, we don't always agree about issues or the conditions.  I would however use folks like Gov Romney and the Koch Brothers as your examples. Gates, and your other examples at least do SOME philanthropic acts.

[Vekseid]

We don't need slick videos and tired rhetoric.  What we need, as a nation, is a calm, rational co-examination of the facts in America today.  The facts are (to me, at any rate, rather self-evident:

1) We are in an economic crisis.  Measure it by unemployment, by the lack of economic growth, by spiraling debt levels.

Private debt is at a six-year low.

3) Contrary to liberal rhetoric, this crisis is not caused by the government not being big enough and not spending enough money.  The government is currently spending about a third more money than it gets by taxes.  Monetary policy is so loose as to be a joke that stopped being funny long ago. 

And yet spending is down.

If the top 5% of the population is earning 25% of the income and only making up for 15% of the spending, and GDP growth is less than 10%, then somehow, someway, that excess 10% needs to find its way to the bottom 95%. There are many ways this can happen, but right now, investment isn't happening.

4) The main proximate culprit is free trade.  Decades ago, someone got the bright idea that foreigners selling goods in America was a right rather than a privilege.  Thus opened the door to American workers competing against foreign slave labor.  The virtues of competition were extolled, without regard for the other side of that coin: competitions have rules.  It's not every person for themselves.

This is a bogeyman. Eliminate Chinese currency manipulation and the losses due to our current healthcare system, and we'd be fine. Maybe we need a small flat tariff, but more as a general encouragement of local production and stability rather than an impediment to globalization per se. Right now we have too many people in power who think that the solution is "Cut American wages by 20%" rather than "Deflate the value of the dollar by 20%".

5) Another major, less spoken of cause is oil depletion.  To keep America growing requires cheap energy.  The price of oil has tripled in the past decade.  Price increases are how shortages are manifested in market economies.

Graph the per capita annual use of oil for the US.

Yeah, we still have people buying 3mpg trucks and bragging about it. That won't last forever.

Here's a challenge for Dark Clown (and the other neoconservatives here): how about some fact-based, numbers-driven arguments?  Try making an argument with cites and facts and figures to support you.  Prove to us that the problem is that Bill Gates and George Soros and T. Boone Pickens aren't rich enough and that the American worker is overpaid.

I highly doubt a single member of this forum is a neocon. Dark Clown has shown active distaste for social welfare programs, for example.

[Mr Self Destruct]

We don't need slick videos and tired rhetoric.  What we need, as a nation, is a calm, rational co-examination of the facts in America today.  The facts are (to me, at any rate, rather self-evident:

1) We are in an economic crisis.  Measure it by unemployment, by the lack of economic growth, by spiraling debt levels.
2) Contrary to conservative rhetoric, this crisis is not caused by the rich not being rich enough.  Corporate profits and the share of wealth held by the upper class are at or very near all-time highs.  If the rich being richer led to prosperity, we'd be there.  It would look like 1965.  So the major talking points of the Right--the rich not being rich enough, more tax cuts, etc.--hold no water.
3) Contrary to liberal rhetoric, this crisis is not caused by the government not being big enough and not spending enough money.  The government is currently spending about a third more money than it gets by taxes.  Monetary policy is so loose as to be a joke that stopped being funny long ago. 
4) The main proximate culprit is free trade.  Decades ago, someone got the bright idea that foreigners selling goods in America was a right rather than a privilege.  Thus opened the door to American workers competing against foreign slave labor.  The virtues of competition were extolled, without regard for the other side of that coin: competitions have rules.  It's not every person for themselves.
5) Another major, less spoken of cause is oil depletion.  To keep America growing requires cheap energy.  The price of oil has tripled in the past decade.  Price increases are how shortages are manifested in market economies.

So the issue isn't "reclaiming liberty."  Slick videos aren't going to bring back manufacturing to America, nor put the tens of billions of barrels of oil back into the ground necessary for $1.59 a gallon gas and fins on cars to return. 

Here's a challenge for Dark Clown (and the other neoconservatives here): how about some fact-based, numbers-driven arguments?  Try making an argument with cites and facts and figures to support you.  Prove to us that the problem is that Bill Gates and George Soros and T. Boone Pickens aren't rich enough and that the American worker is overpaid.

Here's some fact based rebuttal to your arguments.

Firstly, this is about reclaiming liberty.  President Obama has broken the law, on more than one occasion. 

Charge 1: By-passing Congress to make governmental appointments
Charge 2: Violating the separation of church and state
Charge 3: Limiting freedom of speech
Charge 4: Soliciting foreign campaign contributions, which violates electoral law

These are outrageous abuses of power by a man who sits in the highest office in the land and should conduct himself with all the dignity required of such a position.  He should have made sure that his campaign contributions were above reproach.  There should be NO doubt as to the validity of his contributors as American citizens, but the fact of the matter is, he can't solicit enough donations from within his own country.  The American people are the ones who have had to deal with his policies, and have had to suffer through his 'hope and change'. 

I agree wholeheartedly with you about being in an economic crisis.  But the government regulations on business and free trade haven't helped.  Jobs have left our country in record numbers, despite Obama's campaign promise to crack down on companies that outsource jobs overseas. 

The man and his policies have failed.  Period.  He had his chance, and he's saddled us with incredible debt, a health care reform that destroys our health care system, and has weakened us as a world power (no links here, just look at all the devastating Muslim protests around the world...and we're supposed to believe they came from a Youtube preview of a movie?). 

He has failed.  It's time for someone else to take office.  Our other choice is Mitt Romney.  The left has blasted him again and again, but the fact of that matter is this...he deserves a chance to prove his naysayers wrong.  Obviously, not everyone will be happy.  But his tax plan is clear and sound, he demolished Obama in the Denver debate, and he's ready to lead.  That's what we need.  A leader.  Not a teleprompter.

And this isn't about the rich not making enough money.  But regulating the private sector as heavily as this administration has has prevented growth.  Those with the money make the jobs.  That's the truth of a capitalist society.  That capitalist society has made our country the super power that it is today.  America is responsible for 25% of the world's GDP!  That alone proves that our economic system is the greatest in the world.  That's how these millionaires and billionaires have made their fortunes.  Who are we to fault them for their industrious nature?

Master Mischief, no hard feelings.  Politics tends to make everyone upset.  It's the nature of the beast, unfortunately.

[Tamhansen]

And how will Mitford the Mormon create those precious jobs? His resume speaks for him. Closing down plants, outsourcing, bankrupting businesses for insurance money?

Is Obama perfect, hell no. In fact I'd love to see him leave, but not at the cost of having Romney turning my homeland into a dystopia.

[Vekseid]

Charge 1: By-passing Congress to make governmental appointments

The link provides no evidence of the claim. Could you point me where lower-level judicial appointments are mandated by the Constitution?

Of course, prior presidents have done the same. It's just that we currently have an opposition party abusing filibuster, and a spineless coward for the head of the Senate. Until very recently anyway.

Or maybe it's because the one holding office happens to be black.

Charge 2: Violating the separation of church and state

News flash for the misogynist: women's contraception is about more than just stopping babies from happening. Even if it wasn't, it has no bearing on the separation of church and state.

Charge 3: Limiting freedom of speech

Wow, look at how unbiased the source is here! As if free speech zones are new to this administration.

Charge 4: Soliciting foreign campaign contributions, which violates electoral law

The Republicans would never stand for such a thing!

These are outrageous abuses of power by a man who sits in the highest office in the land and should conduct himself with all the dignity required of such a position.  He should have made sure that his campaign contributions were above reproach.  There should be NO doubt as to the validity of his contributors as American citizens, but the fact of the matter is, he can't solicit enough donations from within his own country.  The American people are the ones who have had to deal with his policies, and have had to suffer through his 'hope and change'. 

I agree wholeheartedly with you about being in an economic crisis.  But the government regulations on business and free trade haven't helped.  Jobs have left our country in record numbers, despite Obama's campaign promise to crack down on companies that outsource jobs overseas. 

And Romney is going to do better? He's promised to take care of China just as outsourcing has moved to the rest of Asia for the most part, and is beginning to pick up in Africa. It strikes me as sickly cynical, on top of it all.

The man and his policies have failed.  Period.  He had his chance, and he's saddled us with incredible debt, a health care reform that destroys our health care system,

Interesting that this creep doesn't actually cite where any of this supposed stuff is. It starts off with a picture of the Constitution, spews some fearmongering, and cites nothing.

For those who might doubt the nature of this threat, I suggest they consult the source, the US Constitution, and Bill of Rights. There you can see exactly what we are about to have taken from us.

Nothing but a demagogue.

and has weakened us as a world power (no links here, just look at all the devastating Muslim protests around the world...and we're supposed to believe they came from a Youtube preview of a movie?). 

Basically the muslim protests are stirred up by Imams and other various religious leaders who pick an issue of some sort and drive their crowd into a frenzy. The Youtube video is just 'an excuse'. It's a form of dickwaving by people who have a little bit of power over a larger number of highly desperate, sad individuals.

He has failed.  It's time for someone else to take office.  Our other choice is Mitt Romney.  The left has blasted him again and again, but the fact of that matter is this...he deserves a chance to prove his naysayers wrong.  Obviously, not everyone will be happy.  But his tax plan is clear and sound, he demolished Obama in the Denver debate, and he's ready to lead.  That's what we need.  A leader.  Not a teleprompter.

The only way Mitt Romney's tax math works is to eliminate the mortgage interest deduction.

That would be political suicide for any congressman who voted for that.

Those with the money make the jobs. That's the truth of a capitalist society.

Hell no. Those with a need for something make jobs for those willing to provide it. That's the truth of economics period. Whether you try to enforce communism on someone or not.

  That capitalist society has made our country the super power that it is today.  America is responsible for 25% of the world's GDP!

And when the top tax rate was 94%, America was responsible for more than half the world's GDP!

The United States once outproduced the entire rest of the planet, combined.

We can do so again.

But if it happens, it won't be because Americans decided that the rich need to get richer. It will be another transformation of society akin to the rise of the middle class that proved Marx wrong on a very fundamental level.

That alone proves that our economic system is the greatest in the world.  That's how these millionaires and billionaires have made their fortunes.  Who are we to fault them for their industrious nature?

Have you ever met the sort of people who run casinos?

You can certainly call them industrious. But it's not hard to feel morally superior to the sort of person who will smile as elderly patrons gamble away their retirement in diapers.

Yeah, some people earned their wealth. We don't fault them. There's a need for people who can manage large quantities of resources. On the other hand, just because someone has a billion dollars does not make them 'industrious', much less 'faultless'.

[Tamhansen]

Oh yes, and putting contraceptives into healthcare plan is an increase in the seperation of church and state.

I mean no one is forcing you to take them, they're only making sure they're their for those who need it.

And if the argument is going to be that you don't want to pay for things your religion is against, then please first send me a cheque for 27359,57 please, as that is the amount dubbya had me pay for the wars in Iraq and Afghnanistan. And that's just what went directly there. I'm not counting all the crap taking place in the states over this. My religion prevents me from waging war, so the government should not make me pay so other people can.

[Callie Del Noire]

Dark Clown, I have to ask this: how can you insist that a man who created and defined the policies of a company like Bain Capital, whose primary actions are buying out companies and either moving them off shores or selling their assets to make a quicker profit is the man to bring jobs BACK?

As for the failure of the president's programs and actions. It is very hard to get ANYTHING done when the oppositions first goal is to defeat your reelection years hence and drag their feet in pursuit of that goal.

[Serephino]

Dark Clown, I have to ask this: how can you insist that a man who created and defined the policies of a company like Bain Capital, whose primary actions are buying out companies and either moving them off shores or selling their assets to make a quicker profit is the man to bring jobs BACK?

As for the failure of the president's programs and actions. It is very hard to get ANYTHING done when the oppositions first goal is to defeat your reelection years hence and drag their feet in pursuit of that goal.

+1  They don't even try to hide it.  They said it outright in their campaign speeches.  Also, the video, and your words, suggest that the national debt in its entirety is solely because of President Obama.  That is just not true.  When President Bush left office we had a $13 trillion + national debt.  Okay, so it's gone up another 3 trillion or so.  No, that isn't a good thing, but what do you want the President  to do, wave a magic wand?  Even if the government doesn't borrow another dime the debt will still rise because of interest.  Interest is one of those necessary evils of money borrowing.  Romney isn't going to be able to wave a magic wand and get rid of it either.

How is making insurance companies cover birth control a violation of separation of church and state?  Birth control being a bad thing is a religious viewpoint.  If the government passes a law denying coverage, then that would be a violation.  That isn't what he did.  President Obama made it so that those of us who have no religious issues with birth control have access to it.  This is not Medieval Europe post Black Plague.  We do not need to rebuild the population.

The video is drivel with no actual fact.  It is meant to exploit parents' desire to secure a better future for their children.  It's the usual GOP strategy.  President Bush inferred that if we didn't re elect him we were all going to get murdered by terrorists.  It pissed me off then too.

[doodasaurus]

How is making insurance companies cover birth control a violation of separation of church and state?  Birth control being a bad thing is a religious viewpoint.  If the government passes a law denying coverage, then that would be a violation.

The courts have already ruled on this and, so far, I think the reasoning is splendid.  Money spent on insurance isn't the company's money, it's the *employee's* money -- it's part of the payment for their labor.  Therefore, it is theirs to spend as they please.  Management has no more a right to tell an employee what kind of benefits they have than they do to tell them how to spend their paychecks.  To me, that was a slam dunk against the notion that employeers have some sort of authority to dictate insurance to their employees.

[Beguile's Mistress]

Management does have the right to choose what to offer their employees and the employees have the right to refuse.  Depending on the location of the business there might be a monetary payout to the employee who refuses company provided benefits which they can apply to their own choice of healthcare coverage.  Or they can find employment elsewhere at a company that is more amenable to them.

This is provided it is explained prior to accepting the job.

[Tamhansen]

Very true. But the company has no right to choose what you do with what they offer you.

Just like they can't say, you can't buy money from your paycheck they can't say you can't buy Contraceptives from the drug allowance on your benefits.

[Beguile's Mistress]

If there are plans tailored to provide packages that omit birth control and other medical procedures and supplies and these plans are legal the company can offer those and the prospective employee can say no thank you and find work elsewhere. 

[Tamhansen]

wow. yeah cause finding work elsewhere is such an easy task in the US.

What's next. Packages specifically tailored so you can't buy green apples?

[Beguile's Mistress]

There is no need to be rude.  It's life, real life.  You take what you can get and make do like the rest of us and fight the fight to get things changed.  I've never known any issue that was changed with a mean spirited attitude or sarcasm.

As for healthcare coverage, companies aren't required to even offer it or pay for it.  I agree it's not the nicest way to handle the situation but if you want it changed run for office and work to change it.

[Tamhansen]

Don't get me wrong, I agree to the fact that to change things you need to take action.
But you so dismissevely state that if people don't agree with the package they should just up and leave. Find employment elsewhere as if it's the simplest thing in the world, while in reality most people are tied to an employer for various socio economical reasons. Lack of jobs being a prominent one.
Then again if my employer tried to stick his religion in my healthcare, he'd probably have a union rep in there in two minutes flat, and i believe there lies the real answer, Unfortunately this is rare in the states. And that's a shame.

[OldSchoolGamer]

There is no need to be rude.  It's life, real life.  You take what you can get and make do like the rest of us and fight the fight to get things changed.  I've never known any issue that was changed with a mean spirited attitude or sarcasm.

Well...until people get fed up enough that they take to the streets with pitchforks and AK-47s.  THEN we'll see change.

[Callie Del Noire]

I confess being a navy Vet I have a perk in that I have coverage for the rest of my life in the form of Tricare. I can always fall back on paying for that over what the company offers. I do find this 'we dont' need to provide contraception (or whatever) because it's against my religous beliefs' excuse very dangerous. How is it different to offer NO real coverage when your boss is a Christian Scientist than one that doesn't allow contraception as a point of medical care. I know of at least TWO women who used the birth control pill for things other than contraception..but I work on planes.. medicine.. I listen to my doc and go 'okay'. I know that I have been given medication that was designed for one thing, which I didn't have, to treat something that I do have.

I have seen what it is like in a country where you have to find a doctor willing to face the Church to proscribe birth control, a Pharmacist willing to fill that prescription against the Church's wishes. The fun that is not something I want my nieces to go through HERE. And that is one of the things that actions like restricting something by LAW because it offends someone's religion will do. Seperation of Church and State is starting to fade.. and I fear the consequences.

Bequile's Mistress, I respect your argument.. and even concede it's more valid (at this time at the VERY least) than my own. I worry about the country we're building for my family in the future.

I blame myself, as a voter, for aiding and abetting this. I didn't pay attention to politics, and policy till 2004 or so. Oh I voted.. did the stupid and 'cute' thing of voting for 'Bill & Opus' in one election. Voted down the GOP ticket more than a few times. Voted my 'conscience' in '00 and '04 by choosing 3rd party types that had no chance of winning (short of the winner and runner ups all dropping dead before acceptance).

I started reading, listening, researching. I knew about the sheer apathy of voters for years. (That was put to me in 1980 when I saw the diagram in Ireland.. and books like Starship Troopers made me realize that I had a DUTY to vote. Not a right...)

Well...until people get fed up enough that they take to the streets with pitchforks and AK-47s.  THEN we'll see change.

She's pointing out that HERE.. in this forum..we can be polite and not mean spirited.

[Beguile's Mistress]

Don't get me wrong, I agree to the fact that to change things you need to take action.
But you so dismissevely state that if people don't agree with the package they should just up and leave. Find employment elsewhere as if it's the simplest thing in the world, while in reality most people are tied to an employer for various socio economical reasons. Lack of jobs being a prominent one.
Then again if my employer tried to stick his religion in my healthcare, he'd probably have a union rep in there in two minutes flat, and i believe there lies the real answer, Unfortunately this is rare in the states. And that's a shame.

An employer who changes plans and cuts coverage to deny previously provided benefits is one thing, but an employer hiring someone and telling them this is what the company provides is different.  You may have a legal issue for redress against the first but against the second it's take it or leave it.  A privately owned company has the right to do business in any way that is legal and while it's distasteful to me to see the sort of things some employers are doing in this area I'm not going to argue with their right to do it.

I'm not being dismissive as you say.  I work for a company that pays 50% of our healthcare benefits and we have to pay the other 50%.  It's damned expensive and I have medical issues that fill three six-inch hospital charts so the out-of-pocket expense hits me hard too.  But if they paid the full cost they would be bankrupt.  I don't like what our country has been reduced to in this area and I have friends who are hurt by it. 

I don't think government should involve itself in reproductive issues in peoples lives.  They should stay out of it completely on both sides of the fence, employer and employee. 

Well...until people get fed up enough that they take to the streets with pitchforks and AK-47s.  THEN we'll see change.

Or people can take an intelligent approach to problem solving and get involved themselves.  The more people who actually get out there and work to make change the faster the change gets made. 


@Callie - I didn't see your post until after I posted the above.  Too many of us have followed that path and have regretted it.  I hope and pray that the generations following will see things more clearly.

[Callie Del Noire]

@Callie - I didn't see your post until after I posted the above.  Too many of us have followed that path and have regretted it.  I hope and pray that the generations following will see things more clearly.

I'm not gifted with children of my own, and given my Neurochemically fucked up brain is inheritable (I'm bi-polar) I doubt I'd want to personally have a child. I love my nephew and my nieces and hope for many more from my little brother and his great wife, and THAT is the reason I read, listen, and bug the everloving shit out of my elected officials.

We've mortgaged our future, my party has sold it's soul, and is trying to steal THEIR future..they aren't ready to stand up for themselves.. but I am. So I speak up.. before some tool down South rules that my new neice isn't 'American' enough to walk down the street of her hometown without two forms of proof that she IS an American citizen because her mother is Mexican-American (and odds on has more American ancestors that the dicks pushing such laws into existence.)

My family (barring the American Indians) have been part of this country since BEFORE it's birth. I can place at least eight revolutionary soldiers in my mother's side of the family alone. I know what sacrifice and service means.. you have to consider not your loss.. but what you bring to the future.

[Tamhansen]

An employer who changes plans and cuts coverage to deny previously provided benefits is one thing, but an employer hiring someone and telling them this is what the company provides is different.  You may have a legal issue for redress against the first but against the second it's take it or leave it.  A privately owned company has the right to do business in any way that is legal and while it's distasteful to me to see the sort of things some employers are doing in this area I'm not going to argue with their right to do it.

I'm not being dismissive as you say.  I work for a company that pays 50% of our healthcare benefits and we have to pay the other 50%.  It's damned expensive and I have medical issues that fill three six-inch hospital charts so the out-of-pocket expense hits me hard too.  But if they paid the full cost they would be bankrupt.  I don't like what our country has been reduced to in this area and I have friends who are hurt by it. 

I'm not gonna argue semantics or intentions  I will just let the way you made that comment speak for itself, no use in getting bent up over it. The point for me is simple, if employers get to decide which medicine you can and can't take, then like Callie said that can lead to them denying you whatever they want. And that is what Obamacare is preventing. Now the whole contraceptive thing isn't about whether or not companies can afford it, but how much power a company's owner has in the life of his employees. Now the situation of your employer, I can understand given the hugely inflated healthcare cost in my beloved homeland. I've also given the reasons for the inflated cost in another thread more suited for that. And how difficult it may be for the employees, as long as their is no state or federal healthcare, they will always be forced to pay out of pocket sadly.

I don't think government should involve itself in reproductive issues in peoples lives.  They should stay out of it completely on both sides of the fence, employer and employee.

Tbh i wish the government did interfere in people's reproductive issues, but that's a whole othe socioeconomic issue entirely.

The weird thing is, obamacare could make this whole discussion moot, as a nation wide healthcare system if run efficiently could lower dreug prices by at least ten or 20 percent. Living in the netherlands for a few years now, I've seen their health insurance companies get lower prices time and again. Birth control in the US is about 30 dollars a month. That same pill imported from the US, costs 16 euro's or 20 dollars. Now seeing as our market is les than 5% of the size of the US, surely healthcare companies should be able to negotiate at least what they di over here.

[Trieste]

Currently the system is set up so that insurance companies decide what they will cover for a certain price. The decide it based on cost to them and business modeling, not on ethics, morals, religion, etc (at least, usually). Broken as the insurance system is, that decision should not be transferred to an employer. Health insurance is part of a compensation package when it comes with employment. It is part of your compensation. With the obvious exception of legality, what you do with your compensation is absolutely not your employer's business, nor should it be. The current job market makes "take it or don't have a job" negotiations a form of abuse. It is no different than an employer insisting that you donate to a certain charity or you risk being laid off - it is an abuse of power and it's loathsome.

The only person besides my doctor and I who has any business knowing what prescriptions my doc writes or what health care my doc provides is my pharmacist - and then only so they can check for drug interactions, not so they can dictate my healthcare.

[Stattick]

Let's say that you work in a small town in Kansas. Most of the good paying jobs are either working for the massive farming conglomerate, or working for the meat processing plant. There are other jobs around, but most of them are low paying and don't have benefits.

Would it be fair if those two biggest employers both refused to cover contraception and abortion for any reason because of their religious principles? Sometimes people take the only job available because they need work. Sometimes moving away to take a job a hundred miles away isn't practical or possible. Big corporations absolutely should not have that sort of power in people's lives. I personally don't think that small employers should either, but I might be willing to compromise for businesses that employ fewer than 20 employees or something like that, if independent studies show that it's not going to seriously screw things up for the general population.

[Serephino]

Growing up I had PA CHIP insurance all through high school.  It was pretty decent insurance, but the one stupid thing I remember is that it wouldn't cover birth control unless the doctor signed a little piece of paper stating it was for a reason other than prevention of pregnancy.  I was able to get it because my uterus hates me, but they didn't make it easy.  God forbid a low income family try to prevent teen pregnancy on the tax payer dime...  Here it's like $60 without insurance, unless of course you go to Planned Parenthood, then they use a sliding scale pay system.  Too bad the GOP wants to get rid of Planned Parenthood because they're an abortion machine *sighs*

My local Planned Parenthood has preformed zero abortions.  I know this because I've gone there twice for a pregnancy test.  Right on the little form they have you fill out one of the questions is what you would like to do if the test is positive.  Under the little abortion box it says that they themselves cannot perform the abortion, but they will refer you to a clinic that can if that is what you want to do.  I don't know if it's a state thing or what, but all they do is what a normal OB/GYN would do.  In fact, it's the only place I can go now since the only other place in town has decided they can no longer see me cuz I couldn't cough up $36 for my co insurance payment.   

[elone]

Here's some fact based rebuttal to your arguments.

Firstly, this is about reclaiming liberty.  President Obama has broken the law, on more than one occasion. 


Charge 4: Soliciting foreign campaign contributions, which violates electoral law

These are outrageous abuses of power by a man who sits in the highest office in the land and should conduct himself with all the dignity required of such a position.  He should have made sure that his campaign contributions were above reproach.  There should be NO doubt as to the validity of his contributors as American citizens, but the fact of the matter is, he can't solicit enough donations from within his own country.  The American people are the ones who have had to deal with his policies, and have had to suffer through his 'hope and change'. 

Going back in the conversation. OK I took some time to read your charges, maybe you did not. Here is a quote from the very piece you use to indict our president.

"Schweizer and Boyer present no hard data that show Obama’s 2012 campaign has benefited from widespread foreign or fraudulent donations. They also acknowledge that Republican nominee Mitt Romney could theoretically take advantage of the “loopholes,” as well. The report only purports to illustrate that the possibility for fraud exists."

[Vekseid]

That is pretty much the substance of the evidence Dark Clown is providing in this thread. Smoke, mirrors, misleading statements, 'maybe they did this', 'This guy says it violates the Constitution!'

From someone presumably making something of a living at it, I'd at the very least expect a well-sourced and explained breakdown like I made for SOPA/PIPA here. But we don't get a single proper citation.

[Mr Self Destruct]

You're certainly entitled to your opinions.  I'll give you that, at least.

But to save myself from the possibility of being banned, I'm giving this up.  I understand my views are in the minority on this site, so I'll not push any more buttons.  I take comfort in the number of like-minded individuals that have approached me privately after reading my views and have voiced their opinions, where they certainly couldn't publicly for fear of ridicule and scorn.  Those those members, I thank you for letting me know I'm not the only one, and we're not alone in this.

Enjoy the Politics threads, ladies and gentlemen.  I plan on staying out of them.

[elone]

Dark Clown, I don't think that it is your views that people object to, everyone has an absolute right to their opinion. It is the manner in which you present them, as if everything you say is based on absolute fact when it is not.

It can be compared with reading a newspaper editorial, it is one person's opinion, and that does not make it true. If one thing has come out of this  political campaign that is worth while, it is the role of fact checkers. There has been so much lying and misrepresentation going on on both sides that it is hard to tell who is presenting anything resembling factual representation. Personally, I think that Crossroads PAC is the epitomy of this type of propaganda, for want of a better word, but both sides do it to some degree.

The Supreme Court unfortunately put this on us in the name of freedom of speech. The problem is, many people just believe everything they read and don't check to see if the statistics are true or manipulated.

And as for Romney, he changes his spots so often, I could not vote for him for that reason alone. I could not possibly know where he truly stands on any issue. How can anyone voter for that? I looked at his website and it seemed a mass of contradictions from the performance he put out in the debates. Of course, he had to soften himself after going so far to the right to win the primary and after his 47% comments. That is just the point, who is the man?

[Vekseid]

The only time we've banned someone for a 'right wing opinion' was when someone compared homosexuals to pedophiles and refused to so much as apologize.

If we get 'people' spewing nonsense from proxies, I might take action there too, but that hasn't become a concern here as it has on other major sites.

As for participation in P&R specifically, there is a general implicit assumption from all sides that they are willing to grow. If nothing can change your mind, then you are not arguing, you are preaching.

[Mr Self Destruct]

Regardless, I don't want to take my chances.  I value my membership here too much.

[Callie Del Noire]

Regardless, I don't want to take my chances.  I value my membership here too much.

Your membership isn't in danger. You are a bit emotional but these are emotional times. Be aware that not everyone agrees with one another, accept that you have to defend your arguments with facts and learn from one another.

Veks, and many others, have corrected my assumptions from to time and I try to learn from a differing viewpoint. As the Late Jesse Helms said to my brother when he worked for him, sometime you're going to thing that need doing, despite liking them or not.

[OldSchoolGamer]

You're certainly entitled to your opinions.  I'll give you that, at least.

But to save myself from the possibility of being banned, I'm giving this up.  I understand my views are in the minority on this site, so I'll not push any more buttons.  I take comfort in the number of like-minded individuals that have approached me privately after reading my views and have voiced their opinions, where they certainly couldn't publicly for fear of ridicule and scorn.  Those those members, I thank you for letting me know I'm not the only one, and we're not alone in this.

Enjoy the Politics threads, ladies and gentlemen.  I plan on staying out of them.

The "silent majority," I take it?

Seriously, no one is going to ban you for being Right of center.  I think what's going on here is that you are not used to your postings being fact-checked and cross-examined.  This isn't like many partisan political boards, where people just post whatever and get cheered on.  Criticism is robust here (even if rigorous moderation does tend to temper use of the Socratic method with mandatory etiquette). Post something with links and people will follow the links and examine and weigh them--and not all sources and links are equal.  Post something with no cites or sources that sounds like it came out of your ass, and you will be called on that. 

And yes, "Fox News" conservatives are a minority here.  They also are in America itself, much as they would like to believe otherwise.  But as you've no doubt picked up on, many users here are poor freethinkers, who are not going to be hoodwinked into fawning all over the wealthy elite or thinking that multibillion-dollar megacorporations have their best interests at heart.  There are also quite a few folks here with libertarian leanings, who are generally supportive of the free market, but who 1) don't have a dog in the "moral" fights of the Right, 2) nor in the "Obama is an American-hating MUSLIM!!!1!!1" rhetoric, and 3) also think the rich are beyond rich enough and that there ought to be limits on the unhealthy influence corporations have on the American political process.  To put it another way, many folks here tend to approach the libertarian corner from the Left, valuing social and sexual freedom over economic freedom, rather than from the Right (i.e., the Tea Party, which holds the freedom of billionaires buying elections to be more important than that of homosexuals who want to get married). 

But there's still room for Fox News conservatives here.  I think you just need to be a little more focused.  Rather than broadsides and jeremiads, try posting on specific, tangible issues.  Provide cites and data from reputable sources (not YouTube videos) to support your specific assertions.  And be able to accept criticism, and respond to it with something other than, "I can't respond, I'm going to get banned."  No offense, but that makes it sound like you're trying to play the martyr.

Just my two coppers' worth...

[Tamhansen]

It's the problem of many conformists both to the right and to the left. Believe me you don't have to be a fox conservative to display this behaviours. Believe me I could build a bridge from Amsterdam to new york from the liberals who do the same.

The internet is not a reliable news source, neither is Fox or MSNBC or those communists at CNN. :P But the point is by staying at home in front of your t.v. or computer screen you'll never learn the truth.

Example: if some one truly believes living off unemployment benefits is an easy meal ticket. Go spend a week with some one who is on them. See how they live.
If you believe national healthcare isn't needed, go see what life is like for a factory worker that got sick from the unsafe conditions he worked in.
If you think Mitt Romney will create jobs when he is in office, go ask the people Like Randy johnson who worked for a company bought and 'improved' by Bain capital, how he liked the new job Romney created for him. Oh wait Romney didn't create a new job, he laid off the factory workers, destroyed the company and then collected insurance for bankrupting the company.

If you truly believe the 1% are the job creators, you slept through history class. The true job creators are small business owners. middle class peole who work hard and reward their staff for doing the same. But those get screwed over by the GOP time and again. And so the American economy lives on, in debt to the eyebrows, and enslaved to the one percent. But don't take my word for it. Go out into your country and actually see for yourself.

[onetruebabylon]

A rather interesting read, certainly. Though the "us vs. them" mentality displayed in here is a bit tired.
I would like to encourage all participants to remember that every single person here is on the same "side". We're all people and I have a hard time imagining any one of us actively goes around thinking "I hope you have a miserable life." at random people we encounter on the street. We all strive for happiness and we all like being around happy people--I dare say this is near universal. So I would encourage Dark Clown, and everyone else, to view this as an opportunity to learn.

I join these roleplaying venues, despite a strong preference for solo writing, because it exposes me to writers of all levels of experience and all sorts of styles. Every single person here I see is someone whose writing I enjoy more than my own. This is true on other boards, one of which I own. While many of those very people would scoff and say that my writing is much, much more enjoyable than their own. So I could do one of two things: Become incredibly insecure and look for ways to convince myself that I'm a better writer than those who I see as better than me or I can become incredibly arrogant and just dismiss everyone else as inferior because I'm a sexy beast and they're not. Because I said so.

Alternatively I could view every encounter with a different writer, a different viewpoint, a different mindset as exactly what it is: A learning experience. I find this to be the far healthier option. It makes me a better writer and person to look at opposing viewpoints or writers and ask myself "Why do they write like they do? What can I glean from them and pass on to others?". We all do what we do, believe what we do, for a reason. Despite what those particular views may be I think it is incredibly important that everyone keep an open mind and try to understand why they see things as they do. The more difficult that task is the more valuable the answer will be to you as a person.

I would say peace and happiness are the same in a key way: Neither can be obtained through force. Both can be obtained through understanding.

My attempted tangent of enlightenment now complete I do encourage you all to keep going, and I would encourage Dark Clown not to shy away from the conversation. I do believe Vekseid is the owner of this establishment and he has assured you that there is nothing to worry about--take the man at this word, doesn't everyone deserve that courtesy, at least at first?

[Stattick]

...many folks here tend to approach the libertarian corner from the Left, valuing social and sexual freedom over economic freedom, rather than from the Right

That describes me to a T.

[Tamhansen]

A rather interesting read, certainly. Though the "us vs. them" mentality displayed in here is a bit tired.
I would like to encourage all participants to remember that every single person here is on the same "side". We're all people and I have a hard time imagining any one of us actively goes around thinking "I hope you have a miserable life." at random people we encounter on the street. We all strive for happiness and we all like being around happy people--I dare say this is near universal. So I would encourage Dark Clown, and everyone else, to view this as an opportunity to learn.

It's a human condition. Me against my brother, me and my brother against our cousin. Me my brother and my cousin against the stranger. Us against them is in our blood.

Also, but this is completely irrelevant to the subject matter. "Trust in Allah, but always tie up your camel"