COMIC GEEKS Я US

[LunarSage]

So I figured we could use a thread dedicated to the time honored tradition of a bunch of comic book geeks chatting about the finer points of their favorite characters and storylines, whether Marvel, DC, Image, or others (even independents!). 

THE FIRST RULE OF COMIC GEEKS IS... KEEP IT CIVIL.  I know people are passionate about their favorite characters and debates are likely to occur, but if we can remain respectful of others' opinions and express our own without coming across as condescending or rude (the worst kind of geek... the elite geek!   ;) ), this can be a fun thread. 

XX vs XX is a valid topic, as long as the first rule is respected.  One thing to keep in mind for the purposes of comparing characters from different companies/universes, though is the idea of scaling.  Marvel's strength scales go up to around 100 tons for their most powerful characters, while in DC they measure strength up to the hundreds of thousands of tons levels.  Now at first glance that makes Marvel characters seem weak in comparison, but if say Thor or the Hulk were to travel to the DC universe, their strength would scale up according to DC's 'laws'.  Just as a DC character traveling to Marvel would have their strength scaled down.  Same with putting Goku up against Superman or anything of the like.  The characters will scale up or down to match that universe's basic laws.

That said... I'll open the floor with one of the great debates that's haunted comic book forums for as long as they've existed. 

Who is smarter?  Dr Doom or Lex Luthor?

I'll start with my own opinion on the matter.  I think that while Lex is certainly a genius inventor in his own right, Doom edges him out based on some of the things that he's invented and accomplished.  Most notably... time travel.  If Lex has managed this as well, I'll relent that point... but I don't recall offhand him ever having done so.  Doom has also invented one of the most powerful suits of armor in the world... even Tony Stark couldn't figure out how to bypass Doom's security features.  Finally, Doom has developed some of the most impressive force field technology that Marvel has ever seen on Earth.  In the Marvel Universe, only Thanos of Titan (and possibly Reed Richards, but by a narrow margin) are known to be smarter than Victor Von Doom.

[Jag]

I love comic books. Have for a very long time. I don't really care which character is stronger, smarter, faster, or better than any other. I see comics like I do movies and books...almost all of them are good enough for me to pick up and look at once. I really don't have a bad thing to say, beyond little nit-picks, about any comic book.

I started reading comics with the TMNT comics when I was about 6. I didn't understand, at that age, many of the more deeper plot lines...but I still enjoyed it. I then got into Marvel and DC from there and just devoured everything in sight (I was lucky enough to live near two rather nice comic shops growing up and have a father that encouraged my reading of them). And our local library had a big comic book section and even had a Comic Con Day where local comic artists could come in and give away/sell/autograph their comic books.

I just love comics.

[LunarSage]

Right on, Michi.  ;D

I'd love to hear more about our members' comic book geekdom.  You can't go wrong with comics, right?

When I first started reading comics, they were a dollar each.  I'm sure we have comic book readers who were reading well before that though.  :-)

[Rinzler]

I'm going with Doom being smarter than Luthor, on the basis that old Vic regularly pitches himself against another genius (Reed Richards) and therefore gets to exercise his brain muscles a lot more than Lex - who is as clever as hell, yes, but Superman, though he has a computer-fast brain, is basically a meathead.

[Callie Del Noire]

It's a hard call. I mean both are HUGE Planners.  Lex runs a multinational, Doom a nation. I think Doom has the edge though, he's a much more diverse (and read) genius. He's good at playing people and thinking several moves ahead, whereas Lex is a more (to me) off the cuff thinker who is best at working what's at hand and reacting.

That is Lex's strength. He's able to work things through off the cuff better. Doom never seemed to handle having him go off the rails again.

[Samael]

I'm going to use this opportunity to plug my currently favorite comic:

"Witch Doctor."
Here is what Wiki has to say:

Witch Doctor combines elements of the horror and medical drama genres. The protagonist, Dr. Vincent Morrow, is a maverick doctor who specializes in "supernatural medicine," supplementing common medical practices with magic. Dr. Morrow's "cases" predominantly involve infectious supernatural creatures like vampires, demonic possession, as well as elements based on the cosmic horror of H.P. Lovecraft. In the first Witch Doctor mini-series, Dr. Morrow treats (and battles) a vampire, demons possessing a child, faerie changelings, and Deep Ones (crossed with the Creature From the Black Lagoon), among others.

Dr. Morrow is assisted by Eric Gast, a paramedic who is apparently new to the world of the supernatural, and "Penny Dreadful," a college student who seems to be infected and controlled by a supernatural creature of some sort.

Reception

The first Witch Doctor mini-series was both a sales and a critical success for Skybound, earning praise from comics media sources like IGN[1], horror publications like Fangoria[2], and geek culture media sites including Boing Boing[3], io9[4] and The AV Club[5]

Witch Doctor #1 was number 163 on Diamond Comics Distributors' top 300 chart for June, 2011, selling an estimated 12,592 copies.[6] It was the fifth highest-selling title from Image Comics for that month, behind The Walking Dead #86, Invincible #80, Spawn #208 and Haunt #16. Witch Doctor #1 received a rating of 4 out of 5 from Comic Book Resources,[7] a rating of 7.0 out of 10 from IGN,[8] and a rating of 5 out of 5 from Comics Bulletin.[9]

Cory Doctorow gave Witch Doctor Vol. 1 a positive review on Boing Boing, calling it "charmingly demented" and stating "Ketner and Seifert's sensibility is perfectly potty, and their titular doctor is a blend of Doctor Who and Spider Jerusalem. The metaphysics they reveal through the gruesome adventures in this volume has a weird internal consistency, but it's so cockeyed and frankly revolting that I can honestly say it never occurred to me before they scarred me with it." He concluded, "This is a fine debut, and I can't wait for future volumes."[10]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witch_Doctor_%28comics%29

The main character is terribly quirky, which is immense fun to watch, with his endless neurotic behaviour, his hate for the fact that he's supposed to save the world (he got ahold of Excalibur, to which he refers as "his scalpel", and it's an incredibly fun mix of "X-files" and "Fringe" if Walther was the main character).


Preview of the first issue:
http://www.forcesofgeek.com/2011/06/preview-of-image-comics-witch-doctor-1.html

Longer Preview of the second issue:
http://www2.bloody-disgusting.com/news/comics/1556

It's just my favorite US comic right now, and I think more people need to read it. It's just amazing.

[Callie Del Noire]

I have to say my current favorite is.. Atomic Robo



Built by Nicholai Teslsa, a veteran of WW II, first Robot on Mars (he left a message), has a fear of bugs, believes in the applied use of Action Science (blowing things up) and the eternal nemesis of the unparalleled genius Doctor Dinosaur!

[Cold Heritage]

Marvel's strength scales go up to around 100 tons for their most powerful characters

Another thing to keep in mind with that figure is that for a while now 100 tons is basically the 'we stopped caring about numbers now' point. Hulk, Thor, Hercules, the Abomination, etc., have been shown lifting more than that. And even for weaker characters they get shown to lift more than whatever class they get put in because the ton classes were derived based on a military press or some specific method of lifting that used a very isolated muscle group and didn't entirely reflect what characters could do. And of course, that authors have come and gone since who favoured theatricality - or filthy lucre - over established limits.

Most notably... time travel.  If Lex has managed this as well, I'll relent that point... but I don't recall offhand him ever having done so. 

Wikipedia says several pre-Crisis stories depict him as having mastered it.

I think Luthor would probably be smarter, just because DC does everything on a grander scale. It's like the strength measurements, except there's no easily quantifiable unit for intelligence. But if there were, DC would tack on more zeroes at the end of whatever figures they came up with for their characters. And I think there's a lot to be said for Lex Luthor being a Superman villain: with his intelligence alone Luthor consistently challenges an alien being regularly criticized for being nigh-omnipotent and an extended family of beings of like power.

Not to short change Doom: he's done a lot of rather impressive things. Time travel, coming from a Marvel character, really fails to inspire awe in me. Maybe it's just that I'm disproportionately aware of it in the Marvel universe, but it seems like a lot of Marvel characters are able to time travel. When he stole the power cosmic from the Silver Surfer, that was a lot more impressive to me than anything he could do with time travel.

The thing I would think that gives Doom an edge over Luthor is that Luthor way more obsessed with Superman. During that whole 52 thing where Superman had no powers and lived exclusively as Clark Kent, Luthor basically spent the entire time obsessing about Superman, enacting one evil scheme whose ultimate purpose was to lure out Superman, and getting angry at everyone because they did not believe some new superhero was really Superman in a new identity that Superman adopted solely to troll Lex Luthor. Doom, meanwhile, is globe-trotting, finding time to be part of Norman Osborne's Cabal, making booty calls to Morgan Le Fay, collecting My Little Ponies, jobbing to Squirrel Girl in full glorious not a Doombot canon, running Latveria, failing to destroy Reed Richards, giving third person speeches, and all of that. Luthor's not going to do his best work unless he's got the carrot of destroying Superman dangling in front of him, but Doom'll go and do something supervillainous for whoever - the Fantastic Four, the X-Men, the Avengers, the Great Lakes Avengers, the Defenders. Doom doesn't care.

[LunarSage]

Man O man I really don't care for Squirrel Girl.  *chuckles*

Thanos?  Really?

[Jag]

We can't forget webcomics, now can we? I love:

My Life Without a Jetpack
Looking for Group
Romantically Apocalyptic

[Rinzler]

...And I think there's a lot to be said for Lex Luthor being a Superman villain: with his intelligence alone Luthor consistently challenges an alien being regularly criticized for being nigh-omnipotent and an extended family of beings of like power.

Yep. To be fair to Luthor, he does have balls of adamantium.

[ColdBloodedJellyDoughnut]

Luthor also has the ability to evolve. His brain power grew after Alexander tried to get rid of him with his conflicting brain waves. Of course that was before the reboot.

Asking a large group of comic book geeks... What are your thoughts about the DC reboot?

Personally, I think it destroyed a lot of character development and almost made things worse, apart from a couple of good titles. And can someone please unwrite Damien? That kid is a train wreck.

[Callie Del Noire]

Personally, I think it destroyed a lot of character development and almost made things worse, apart from a couple of good titles. And can someone please unwrite Damien? That kid is a train wreck.

I think it's very telling that my FAVORITE reboot is All Star Cowboys.. and gimme an AMEN for the 'kill Damien' idea.. I'm still pissed how they brushed the girl robin under the rub when she was killed.

[ColdBloodedJellyDoughnut]

Stephanie Brown came back, you know? She was Batgirl before the reboot. Of course, now she's disappeared, along with a host of other characters.

Barbara Gordon was better as Oracle. Huntress was better as Helena Bertinelli (even though I am interested to see her as Batman's daughter...) The Outlaws suck. Poison Ivy should be a villain. Joker in Batman looks like a drag queen...

I think more harm than good has come from it.

Damien is the friggen stupidest character. Grant Morrison is a moron.

[Callie Del Noire]

Stephanie Brown came back, you know? She was Batgirl before the reboot. Of course, now she's disappeared, along with a host of other characters.

Barbara Gordon was better as Oracle. Huntress was better as Helena Bertinelli (even though I am interested to see her as Batman's daughter...) The Outlaws suck. Poison Ivy should be a villain. Joker in Batman looks like a drag queen...

I think more harm than good has come from it.

Damien is the friggen stupidest character. Grant Morrison is a moron.

I dunno.. Morrison is better than some.. I notice he's better with his own inventions than anything someone else wrote up.

Personally I think it was quite telling on how some characters got treated.. I mean you had the Blue Beetle get killed. (in a well written way) then you have Stephie get killed and it was never existed, not even a costume in the cave in rememberance. I think a lot of the fail in Brown's death was due to Dan Dido and company.

[Rinzler]

Grant Morrison is a moron.

Whoa, whoa, whoa...you weren't there when Zenith hit 2000ad, Jelly!

Young whippersnapper... :-P

[ColdBloodedJellyDoughnut]

Whoever let him loose on Batman needs shooting. Seriously.

[Callie Del Noire]

Whoever let him loose on Batman needs shooting. Seriously.

Like I said.. he's very good with certain things.. mostly stuff he's made.. give him an universe like DC he's not doing (in my opinion) so good.

(on another subject).. Outlaws is one of my guilty pleasures.. sorry CBJD. <goes to hide>

[LunarSage]

I wasn't thrilled with Morrison's X-Men run either...

[Callie Del Noire]

I wasn't thrilled with Morrison's X-Men run either...

It was just the final nail in my reading of the series.

[Cold Heritage]

I haven't read the new DC books. There isn't really a lot to attract me to them; none of the people talking about them make them seem very exciting or worth getting into. I wasn't really much into mainstream DC anyway - the last title in the mainstream I followed was Secret Six, and that was kind of a fringe book anyway.

But hey, it means Grounded never happened. That's gotta be worth something.

[Samael]

The DCU reboot was a full blown disaster.
Most of the books are straight terrible, and the few that aren't, are the ones that are more Vertigo than DC, i.e. Shade, swamp thing, animal man, black hawks to some degree. Which are incidentally the books I enjoy. Even blue beetle is relatively alright, but -that- book sure as hell didn't need a damn reboot in the first place. It's just 3 or4 years old, for crying out loud.

JLA is just plain out horrible.
I can't stand the "New" Superman at all, who is just a cocky, stubborn, arrogant ass (and not even in the fun, Wolverine kind of thing, just some guy with his head up his ass). Batman is still great, like always, and I enjoy the Green lantern storyline with Sinestro, as well as the new take on Aquaman, although the book isn't very exciting.

So, yeah, here's hoping we get the old version back soon.

[Callie Del Noire]

They (DC) would rather stuck appendages in a running blender than admit a mistake. EVER.

[TentacleFan]

I wasn't thrilled with Morrison's X-Men run either...

I'm very happy to see I'm not the only one. As someone who got into comics via the X-men first I could not stand his run and the various directions tried since it for that matter. I'm sad to say I think he's just about poisoned X-men to me. I think Morrison is the most overrated comics writer out there. I haven't tried any of his creator owned work but when it comes to super hero books I'm uninterested if his name is involved.

As for DC and the relaunch I had the few DC books I was still collecting get cancelled when it changed over. I still get Birds of Prey but only because I forgot to tell my comic shop owner to take it off my list. I need to do so. Of course I'm not getting almost any Marvel books anymore either. I used to buy quite a few titles from the big two but cancellations and being increasingly dissatisfied with their takes on super heroes has pushed me to other directions.

[Chris Brady]

I remember when comics were 25-50 cents each, in the 80s.

I like some of the New 52.  Batwing is awesome so far.  Catwoman was meh.  The Titans was OK, but I need to see more.

However, I am glad the brought back Barbara Gordon as Batgirl.  I always found her excuse tone Oracle to be exceedingly lame, and this coming from a cripple.  I admit that the Spolier was a cool character but I was never all the comfortable with Tim Drake's womanizing to feel all right with her teen pregnancy.  I get that they were trying to show them being kids, but I sometimes wonder if there wasn't another way...

Also my blog has my full view on Barbara Gordon.