Ferguson v2.0

[Sethala]

I agree. Less lethal armaments (tasers, capsicin spray, etc) are the appropriate choice for a situation not requiring lethal force. A firearm should only be used if the situation justifies the use of immediate lethal force, in which case fancy trick-shooting would not be a realistic or appropriate option.

The cynical side of me says "Right, and as soon as we get the guys assaulting cops to use tasers and pepper spray, we'll get the police to resort to less-violent methods too."

The fact is, there are far too many people that do walk around with a firearm and are willing and able to pull it out and shoot someone rather than stop and ask questions.  A cop is likely going to talk to, detain, or arrest dozens, probably hundreds of people in his career.  All it takes is one of those people pulling a gun and getting a lucky shot off to bring the cop from "defender of the peace" to "worm food".

I think that, as long as the american public has such easy access to firearms (seriously, we have more guns per citizen than most third-world countries), the cops are going to err on the side of caution, and in this case "caution" can often mean "shoot first, check for weapons later".

Granted, there are certainly corrupt cops that are willing to fire on someone they know isn't a threat if they just don't like that person.  I completely agree that "cop cams" should be standard issue, as well as highly visible so both the cop and the people he's talking to know they're being watched and recorded.

[Slywyn]

1) Brown stole items from a shop
2) Brown physically assaulted a police officer that was in his car

Both of your 'facts' have been shown to either be untrue(Brown was never in the store he allegedly stole from, for example) or highly misconstrued(Brown would have had to have punched awkwardly -around- Wilson's head to hit his right cheek).

So... yeah. It's not as cut and dry as people are pretending it is.

[Iniquitous]

Both of your 'facts' have been shown to either be untrue(Brown was never in the store he allegedly stole from, for example) or highly misconstrued(Brown would have had to have punched awkwardly -around- Wilson's head to hit his right cheek).

So... yeah. It's not as cut and dry as people are pretending it is.

Incorrect. The friend with Brown did confirm that he was with Brown when they robbed the store ( link )

The fact of this matter is the "witness reports" of Brown being shot in the back with his hands up has been proven false. (Autopsy shows there were no entrance wounds on his back) Brown had a gunshot wound on his hand with residue from the gun that could only have gotten there if his hand was close to the muzzle of the gun when it went off (this supports the police officer's report that Brown went for his gun). People did report seeing Brown at the window of the car and that it looked like there was a struggle going on. They also reported that he turned away from the car, started to walk off then turned around, lowered his head with his hand at/under his waistband and charged the police officer (this supports the police officer's report as well).

1. If a cop asks you to do something, you do it. You are not going to win if you try to argue/fight with a cop.
2. If you attack a cop, you are asking for it. Wilson reacted as he has been trained to - someone attacked him then charged him. The trajectory of the bullets support how Wilson described the scene.
3. Brown had marijuana in his system at the time of his death.

Simply put, Brown is not the victim so many want him to be. He played with fire and he got burned. Whether people want to admit it or not, the physical evidence supports Wilson. ( Link )

Brown is not the victim here. This is not a white vs black issue.

[SouvlakiSpaceStation]

Relevant...

GENEVA, Switzerland (UPDATED) – A UN watchdog on Friday, November 28 slammed police shootings of blacks in the United States, days after a decision not to prosecute a white officer who shot and killed an unarmed black teen sparked nationwide protests..

With tensions still running high after the November 24 decision by a Missouri grand jury not to charge a white policeman who shot dead 18-year-old Michael Brown on August 9, the UN Committee Against Torture published conclusions from its review earlier this month of the US record.

Brown's parents had been present at the hearing on November 12 and 13 in Geneva to discuss their son's case with the committee members.

"The committee is concerned about numerous reports of police brutality and excessive use of force by law enforcement officials, in particular against persons belonging to certain racial and ethnic groups," the 10-member committee said in its report.

It also lamented "racial profiling by police and immigration offices and growing militarization of policing activities."

Alessio Bruni, one of the top investigators on the committee, told reporters in Geneva the members had voiced "deep concern at the frequent and recurring police shootings in fatal pursuit of unarmed black individuals."

The committee, which periodically reviews the records of the 156 countries that have ratified the Convention Against Torture, lamented that the large delegation of high-level US officials who came to Geneva to defend the US record had provided little data on police brutality and investigations into such abuses.

It urged Washington to ensure that all cases of police brutality and excessive use of force are "investigated promptly, effectively and impartially", that perpetrators be brought to justice and that victims receive effective remedies.

"We have certain concerns about whether investigations are ... thoroughly completed and whether punishment of law-enforcement when they have crossed the line are effectively put in place," said another of the panel's top investigators, Jens Modvig.

[Rex Pacis]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWUkBxmFUvU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVJzspyeen8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCVPMZmQB2U&list=UU1yBKRuGpC1tSM73A0ZjYjQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6e57CSImJ-c

Just leaving this here cause this issue is starting to drain my psyche. I'll try to keep it short.

I can't say for sure that Darren Wilson is guilty of anything but I can say for sure if he really cared about justice and believed he did nothing wrong the least he could have done was stand trial. That is literally the only thing he had to do and I believe a lot of this violence and unrest could have been calmed some.  A man accused of murder will never stand trial because of a tainted Grand Jury process with a prosecutor who seemed to have no intention of indicting Darren Wilson ever...you know the one job he had. God forbid that doesn't irk some people with a history of being oppressed.

Why does it matter where Brown was found, Tairis? I think it's very important because that alleged "assault" on Darren Wilson took place in his car not 8-10, 30, or 150 feet from his car. Somebody must have chose to flee. No? So Wilson..."fearing" for his life chose to give chase after Brown assaulted him. Does that sound like police procedure? I thought he had called for backup. I don't think Brown was innocent of anything...if he did not go to jail for assault then he should have at least have had to answer for the robbery. Not be six feet under right now. However the issue is not what Michael Brown did it's about what Darren Wilson ended up doing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6yfbbt6DvHg

A few more things....

Like it says in the one video above. Supposedly, according to the chief of freaking police, at first Darren Wilson had no idea about the robbery and was approaching Mike Brown and his friend for jaywalking. Suddenly when testimony time comes he is blocking their escape with his car and is noticing cigars in Mike Brown's hands taken in a robbery he was supposed to know nothing about.

So it is proven that either Darren Wilson or the police themselves changed the story around to their benefit and that doesn't grind anybody's gears? Or maybe make you think that I don't know maybe the police are lying? They left him lying the street for four hours and took no pictures of the scene. Does that sound like good police work to anyone? I had heard the store owner didn't even report a robbery but that didn't stop them from releasing the video to show Brown's thuggish behavior. Who was pressing charges over a handful of cigars? You can watch the fourth video above to see exactly what that meant to the case. ((Hint: Nothing!))

So many more questions to bring up but I'm tired and more tired of typing them.

Brown never did himself any favors(unless he did try to surrender but whatevs...) but to think that Wilson is innocent of any wrong doing just because Brown was a "thug" and cause the Grand Jury chose to NOT charge him with anything is a little silly. He will never be innocent in some people's eyes because he never had to face the charges brought against him cause a PROSECUTOR couldn't prove to a jury that killing an unarmed person was wrong. Probably didn't help when your case to said jury was to let them hear every testimony and piece of evidence. Sure sounds like someone did his homework against Wilson like he was supposed to...

[Florence]

3. Brown had marijuana in his system at the time of his death.

Every time this point has been raised in discussions of this subject, my reaction has been the same: ... so?

Shit if having pot in your system warranted execution, I wouldn't be here typing this right now.

Granted, I have the good sense not to interact with the fuzz while high, but still.

Also, on the topic of the robbery; as Rex Pacis said, the police themselves publicly stated that Wilson had no knowledge of the robbery at the time of the shooting. If that's so, it sort of makes the entire thing irrelevant when discussing whether or not Wilson was justified in the shooting. If I ran outside with a knife and stabbed some guy in the street only to later find out he was a serial killer, it wouldn't change the fact that I just randomly stabbed a guy in the street. He could have been a nice guy who runs a soup kitchen and donates all his spare change to charities for all I knew.

Based on what I've heard, at least, it sounds like as far as Wilson knew, Brown was just some black kid walking in the middle of the street when they first encountered each other. You can debate what happened after that point well enough, but unless Wilson was made aware of them, the events prior aren't really relevant towards whether or not the shooting was justified.

You could argue that it goes to character, but all that tells me is he was kind of a punk, and probably deserved to go to jail. It's not sufficient to paint a picture of a kid who deserved to be gunned down in the street.

To be clear I'm not saying lock Darren Wilson up and throw away the key. I'll be the first to admit that I don't really know what happened. I just think one thing that is clear is that past events the shooter wasn't aware of don't really have much weight in debating the shooting itself.

I definitely agree that, for me at least, its the lack of an indictment, more than the lack of a conviction, that bothers me. I know they've emphasized that the people deciding that were the only ones with access to ALL the information; but it just seems to me there was at least enough to go on to bring it to trial. If he was innocent, awesome, let a jury find him innocent.

I know there would have been an outcry either way, with people claiming the grand jury bowed to pressure if things went differently; but at least if he stood trial we could have some sense that there had at least been an effort to make sure justice was served.

[consortium11]

Why does it matter where Brown was found, Tairis? I think it's very important because that alleged "assault" on Darren Wilson took place in his car not 8-10, 30, or 150 feet from his car. Somebody must have chose to flee. No? So Wilson..."fearing" for his life chose to give chase after Brown assaulted him. Does that sound like police procedure? I thought he had called for backup. I don't think Brown was innocent of anything...if he did not go to jail for assault then he should have at least have had to answer for the robbery. Not be six feet under right now. However the issue is not what Michael Brown did it's about what Darren Wilson ended up doing.

I think posts like this are why I mentioned in the OP about reading the evidence and testimony.

No-one denies that Wilson pursues Brown after the exchange in the car (where Brown seemingly punched Wilson twice, went for his gun and was shot twice in return, once in the thumb/hand). As the story goes Wilson ran after a fleeing Brown and told him to stop and get on the ground. Brown stopped... but turned and charged Wilson. Wilson fired a number of shots, told him to stop again and then, when he didn't, fired several more, the last of which hit Brown in the head and killed him. The physical and witness testimony pretty much all supports this and at the very least doesn't oppose it.

Does it sound like police procedure to pursue a fleeing subject who's just assaulted a police officer? Yes. One can of course think that, especially with the benefit of hindsight, it would have been better for Wilson to call for backup and try to track Brown's movements without engaging him but that's a judgement call, not a matter of procedure.

[Rex Pacis]

This might sound dumb but which evidence in particular was I supposed to look at, sir? Considering that the prosecutor rather then do his job and build a case against Darren Wilson chose to present the jury, with most likely no legal backgrounds, all the "evidence" they had collected. If the transcripts really are thousands of pages long like I heard why would I read through it only to find what I've already heard. Some people say he was surrendering, Wilson and some other witnesses(only five out of sixty testimonies i think) say he was charging, Brown can say nothing. I think someone here already talked about the unreliability of eyewitnesses so there's that.

You wanna talk about the autopsy well I already provided a short video on that.

My conclusion is based off the actions and words of Darren Wilson and the Ferguson police. They changed their story when it came time for the grand jury, they didn't bother to correct that bullshit story about orbital socket fractures, they released a tape about a crime that had nothing to do with the incident, the town prosecutor played the role of defense attorney...these people worked real hard to make sure Brown was portrayed as a criminal even though as far Darren Wilson knew before the incident all he was was a disorderly jaywalker who he shot and killed. According to Dorian Johnson Wilson grabbed Brown first after having reversed his car back to them. So who really started the aggression is still up in the air.

Don't forget that when the tape was released Wilson supposedly had no idea about the robbery yet it is the basis of his defense all of a sudden. Because if he shot and killed a jaywalker who disrespected him then that might be an actual crime.

You seem to imply that I'm misinformed but the truth is neither of us is actually fully informed. However the things I said in my last two paragraphs are actual facts so maybe you can see why I don't believe a word Wilson says. And considering how racially charged this issue is the fact that nine out of the twelve jurors were white is just the icing on the bullshit cake. There's no Indian,  Asian, or Hispanic people living in Ferguson?

One last thing I'm fairly certain Wilson at least says he called for backup...he just chose not to wait for it. He was terrified for his life however so the obvious choice must be to go after the staggering man you shot twice and are afraid might kill you. So that aint 20/20 hindsight that's just..WTF? Chase a criminal into his turf alone is definitely a solid plan of action lol.

The thing I'm not getting is why people think just because he was not indicted that means he was innocent of any wrong doing. It just means he is NOT going to trial. A trial that would have sorted through the fact and fiction to give us a better picture of what really happened. Couldn't have that now could we? God forbid he was actually proven innocent during the trial.

[Caehlim]

I can't really comment on any of the other issues here, not knowing many of the facts, but here's one I can answer.

And considering how racially charged this issue is the fact that nine out of the twelve jurors were white is just the icing on the bullshit cake. There's no Indian,  Asian, or Hispanic people living in Ferguson?

According to the 2010 census, 1.2% of the population of Ferguson identifies as Hispanic, 0.5% Asian and 0.4% other races. So when selecting a group of 12 people, you still wouldn't see any Hispanic, Asian or Indian jurors if they were statistically representative. However the population is 67.4% African American, which does not appear to be represented within the jury pool. Only 29.3% of the population is considered White.

[Oniya]

However the population is 67.4% African American, which does not appear to be represented within the jury pool. Only 29.3% of the population is considered White.

There's also the difficulty of getting people to serve jury duty.  Here in the States, jurors are selected at random from a pool usually comprised of registered voters.  Jurors also have the ability to plead 'hardship' if taking the time off for jury duty would endanger family members (for reasons of care-taking, loss of income, and such).  Jurors are paid a small compensation, and employers are not allowed to prevent someone from serving on a jury, but the compensation doesn't come anywhere near a day's wages.  As a result, a juror who is living paycheck-to-paycheck, or is the sole caretaker of children or elders is likely to plead for (and get) a hardship waiver.  If a lot of the African American population falls into that socioeconomic bracket, then that can impact the jury demographics.

[Caehlim]

There's also the difficulty of getting people to serve jury duty.  Here in the States, jurors are selected at random from a pool usually comprised of registered voters.  Jurors also have the ability to plead 'hardship' if taking the time off for jury duty would endanger family members (for reasons of care-taking, loss of income, and such).  Jurors are paid a small compensation, and employers are not allowed to prevent someone from serving on a jury, but the compensation doesn't come anywhere near a day's wages.  As a result, a juror who is living paycheck-to-paycheck, or is the sole caretaker of children or elders is likely to plead for (and get) a hardship waiver.  If a lot of the African American population falls into that socioeconomic bracket, then that can impact the jury demographics.

Well according to the American Community Survey for 2010-2012 the poverty rate is three times higher for African Americans living within Ferguson, so this certainly does seem quite possible.

[Beguile's Mistress]

In addition, grand jury participation is usually a more time consuming commitment than the one-day-one-trial commitment most counties expect for jurors empaneled for a courtroom system.

[DiscoveringEzra]

http://nypost.com/2014/11/27/balloon-atics-target-thanksgiving-day-parade

Im sorry, but that rubbed me the wrong way


The limitation of riots, moral questions aside, is that they cannot win and their participants know it. Hence, rioting is not revolutionary but reactionary because it invites defeat. It involves an emotional catharsis, but it must be followed by a sense of futility.

Martin Luther King, Jr.

[Knightshadow]

Even Martin Luther King, Jr. saw the uselessness of anarchy. Peaceful demonstrations, gaining the means to political office in order to effect change. This is what it means to responsibly and peacefully change the world for the better.  Anarchy invites violence.  Kids at the Macy's parade are innocent.  Should their safety be jeopardized too?  What then for the cause?

[Beguile's Mistress]

In a world where protest is important to the betterment of all humanity Ghandi knew the power of doing it peacefully.  His wisdom showed that descending to violence cheapens the cause and makes an enemy of the protester.  It's a shame that the lesson still needs to be taught today.

[Cassandra LeMay]

And considering how racially charged this issue is the fact that nine out of the twelve jurors were white is just the icing on the bullshit cake. There's no Indian,  Asian, or Hispanic people living in Ferguson?

As far as I understand it, juries are pre-selected and serve for a certain time, hearing all cases brought before them while they are on duty. This jury was (to the best of my knowledge) not assembled for this proceeding exclusively. Also I believe it is common for jury composition to follow the demographics of the state, not a single community, (as they will have to hear cases from all over the state) and about 84% of Missouri's population is white.

[Apple of Eris]

As much as I dislike violence myself, I should point out that the United States was founded on political protest that sometimes turned to mob violence that became a revolution. The Boston Tea Party for one was seen by the British as the act of a rioting mob, though Samuel Adams claimed it was a principle protest to defend constitutional rights. Or the burning of a ship in Maryland for carrying tea. The "Sons of Liberty" Burned records, looted homes, tarred and feathered people who cooperated with the British...

The whole foundation of the United States rests on defying political authority with the use of violence to back up that defiance.

I'm not saying that it's right, but it is an American legacy.

[Beguile's Mistress]

Then perhaps it's time to ignore the sins of the past as you see them instead of using them as an excuse and stop these violent criminals who are committing arson and theft and causing people to feel threatened.  It doesn't help and it won't work to make anything better for anyone.  There is absolutely no excuse for the riots and civil disobedience and for people attacking police and then expecting to be let off with a warning after they have destroyed the businesses and lives of people who don't deserve it. 

[DiscoveringEzra]

That quote was in response to someone posting a comment on riots. I guess I should have separated it sufficiently.



Actually Knight, I'm irritated that they called them Anarchists. The Protest at the Macy's parade [was] peaceful.Until the Police grew impatient and started shoving people around with the fence , and then bum rushing people to the ground and arresting them. There was only 30, 40 at most protesting.

People are upset over a protest at a parade calling them anarchist saying they should be shot in the head not arrested, but then not bat an eyelash when a so called church protests funeral of a soldier. I've seen people bring up the fact that children would be there and I understand your concern. But Whether Darren Wilson was justified or not, it still doesn't make the cause any less. Too many unarmed people have been killed by police and nothing happened to the officers. That's the point protesters are trying to make.

Mike Brown was just the straw that broke the camels back, so to speak. It could have been anyone else like John Crawford,22, who was shot and killed by police officers seconds within arriving to the scene. He was holding a rifle that Walmart sold in their store, while talking on the phone. His shooting was deemed justified even though the 911 caller completely lied and said that he was waving it around and pointing it at people. Surveillance later found that at no time was he waving it around or aiming it at people.


Alot of people mentioned about the children at the parade and how their parade experience would be ruined, by the protest.  what about the safety of these children?

* Tamar E Rice, 12, who was Shot and killed by police officers within seconds of them arriving to the scene. He was playing with an airsoft gun at the local playground. The caller mentioned that " It's probably fake, but I don't know" (I'm Paraphrasing) people are already starting to smear his name. 

*Aiyana Stanley-Jones,7, Shot in the head by police officers while sleeping on the couch during a no-knock raid. Although the home they were supposed  to be raiding was next door in a duplex, they decided to raid BOTH  sides of the home.

we can even go back to 1944

*George Stinney, 14, Accused of murdering two girls, and Executed. Stinney, according to police, confessed to the crime. No witness or evidence that might vindicate him was presented during a trial that was over in fewer than three hours. An all-white jury convicted him in a flash, 10 minutes, and he was sentenced to "be electrocuted, until your body be dead in accordance with law. And may God have mercy on your soul," court documents say.( his cell mate reported that he continued to deny killing them saying " I didn't do it. I didn't do it" " And " Why would they kill me for something I didn't do?" They are seeking a New trial and it may go in his favor but Its 70 years too late."


MLK Also said  "I would be the first to say that I am still committed to militant, powerful, massive, non­-violence as the most potent weapon in grappling with the problem from a direct action point of view... But it is not enough for me to stand before you tonight and condemn riots. It would be morally irresponsible for me to do that without, at the same time, condemning the contingent, intolerable conditions that exist in our society. These conditions are the things that cause individuals to feel that they have no other alternative than to engage in violent rebellions to get attention. And I must say tonight that a riot is the language of the unheard." -MLK

Protesters aren't blowing smoke up our asses or doing it just for fun, their cause has real merit to it, and they should be heard. This is not Just a bout Mike Brown, It's much much larger than Mike Brown.

People say Racism is over and that Blacks are too emotional. Just take a look around you may be surprised at how wrong that statement it. I'll give you a starting point with this whole ordeal don't just look at the articles or Youtube videos. Read the comments too. Anonymity gives people the courage to say what they are really thinking.

[DiscoveringEzra]

OMO, that post was a lot larger than I entended. O.O

[SouvlakiSpaceStation]

MLK also said "A riot is the language of the unheard" ....

Also, Gandhi was actually a terrible person but that's kind of another matter entirely.

[Knightshadow]

Thank you, Dicoveringezra. That was actually very enlightening and I am changing my opinion of the Macy's anarchy claims. The facts you cited about the innocent children being shot are tragedies. I cannot blame the anger then, being a father myself. If those were the actions of police in my neighborhood, one would then need to label me an anarchist or terrorist, for I would have no mercy. Vengeance would be in my heart and violence would be in my actions.

[Cycle]

I think posts like this are why I mentioned in the OP about reading the evidence and testimony.

It is worth point out two things about the available evidence: 

(1) What is publicly available right now is not a complete set of the evidence presented to the Grand Jury.  The documents released are incomplete.  Not all of the witness transcripts have been released, and many reports are missing pages.  Indeed, until a Court orders it, we the public will never be allowed to see everything since Grand Jury proceedings are supposed to be confidential normally.

(2) It is not a Grand Jury's job to determine guilt or innocence.  They only look at the evidence presented by the prosecutor and decide if there is enough to indict--that is, present it to an actual jury to determine guilt or innocence.  In most states, and I believe Missouri, even if one Grand Jury opts not to indict, that does not mean the prosecutor can't proceed with prosecution anyway, or hand it to a second Grand Jury.  So here, I believe if McCulloch wants to prosecute Wilson, he still can.  Regardless, the point is, the Grand Jury's evidence doesn't have to convince anyone that Wilson is guilty, only that a trial should be held.

[Apple of Eris]

Once again, John Stewart and the Daily Show summarize pretty much all my thoughts up in a funny and much more succinct manner than I could ever do:

http://thedailyshow.cc.com/videos/xl1k7u/instigate?xrs=synd_facebook_120214_tds_34

And this from an article in the huffington post, listing a number of unarmed black shot by white officers:

Eric Garner's death in July was ruled a homicide resulting from a police chokehold. He was unarmed, black, and here's the Time Magazine video of his death. Garner had just broken up a fight and was accused of selling cigarettes. This November, the City of Cleveland reached a $3 million settlement with the families of Timothy Russell and Malissa Williams. Cleveland police officers killed the unarmed black couple after firing 137 bullets at their car. In 2013, The City of Orange County agreed to pay $4.4 million to the family of Manuel Loggins Jr. The former Marine sergeant was unarmed, black, and was shot to death by police in front of his two daughters. After watching their father die, the two young girls were held for 13 hours by police for questioning. In 2011, San Francisco's BART agreed to a settlement of $2.8 million for the shooting of Oscar Grant III, after the unarmed black man was killed by a former officer. In 2010, New York agreed to pay $7 million to the family of Sean Bell, an unarmed black man shot and killed by police. It was Bell's wedding day. In 2011, five New Orleans police officers were convicted of killing Ronald Madison, an unarmed black man. Madison was also mentally disabled. In 1999, 41 bullets were shot at unarmed Amadou Diallo by four officers and New York settled with the West African immigrant's family for $3 million. This September, a former South Carolina state trooper was fired and now faces charges for shooting Levar Jones (Jones survived), an unarmed black man.

This August alone, 4 unarmed black males were killed by police. In Brooklyn this month, Akai Gurley was shot and killed in the darkened stairwell of a housing project. Gurley was unarmed and his death was ruled a homicide. The other day, police shot at an unarmed black man holding his daughter, but thankfully neither were killed.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/h-a-goodman/three-reasons-why-black-m_b_6245962.html?ncid=txtlnkusaolp00000592


This isn't some isolated incident, and that's why so many people are rioting and protesting, it's another symptom of a systemic and deep rooted bias against African Americans and other minorities. Regardless of the number of people who want to dismiss it by calling a kid who stole $50 worth of cigars a 'thug' or other label which by the way, when discussing a white teen conducting similar crimes the teens are normally called 'troubled' or something similar, this is an issue and problem in our society and it needs to be discussed honestly and openly, and sadly it seems that the only way to draw attention to the issue is through civil disobedience.

[Cherri Tart]

Just a little perspective. a lot of us (i say us, because i took part in non-violent protests in my city) aren't saying that M. Brown was some sort of saint. he may very well have been a criminal. the issue at hand, isn't about whether Michael performed a criminal act, the issues are that:

1) he was black (yes, this IS about race) and go to, lately, for taking down black men is lethal force. btw, i can cite several recent cases where a white kid was taken down without lethal force while doing something much worse than Brown, and in at least one of those instance, the guy was armed and was being chased by cops after trying to shoot someone.

2) whenever something like this happens, it seems there is no justice and pretty much everyone goes straight towards character assassination on the victim (Brown). let me remind you - an 18 year old kid was killed. this isn't a movie. this is real life.

if you look at the stats, you'll understand why there is so much rage in the black community, or those sympathetic to it. it seriously feels like open season on black men lately. pretty soon there will be pictures of white cops posed, their foot on the neck of the trophy black man they just shot. would i prefer the protests be non violent? yes - MLK is actually a hero of mine. do i condone the rioting a looting? no, but i DO understand it. what would be nice is everyone stop condemning the aftermath of this and, instead, putting energy into creating change. what would be nice would be if we've seen the last of the headline:  white cop kills unarmed black kid. just because Ferguson is the hot news story recently, doesn't mean it's still not happening around the country...

black men are shot, beat up, arrested, hasselled, stopped, searched, etc, for no reason other than they are black on a daily basis. i know this for a fact, i have seen it happen all too often. it needs to change. WE need to change.

in closing, i'll leave you with this to ponder - today's news, NYC.

Sparking protests in several cities, social media outrage and a U.S. civil rights probe, a New York City grand jury declined to indict a white police officer in the death of a black man put in a chokehold after selling untaxed cigarettes.

The grand jury found "no reasonable cause" to indict officer Daniel Pantaleo, who was attempting to arrest Eric Garner, 43, on July 17.

As angry crowds gathered tonight to protest in Manhattan, U.S. Attorney General Eric Holder announced that the Justice Department is opening a federal civil rights inquiry.

Holder, while urging calm in the aftermath of yet another controversial grand jury action, promised that the federal inquiry would be "independent, thorough and fair.''

President Obama said the grand jury decision will spark strong reaction from the public, especially in the wake of a similar decision in Missouri last week not to indict officer Darren Wilson in the shooting death of unarmed Michael Brown.

"There was a decision that came out today by a grand jury not to indict police officers who had interacted with an individual named Eric Garner in New York City -- all of which was caught on video tape and speaks to the larger issues that we've been talking about now for the last week, the last month, the last year and, sadly, for decades," Obama said.

"And that is the concern on the part of too many minority communities that law enforcement is not working with them and dealing with them in a fair way . . .this is an issue that we've been dealing with for too long, and it's time for us to make more progress than we've made. And I'm not interested in talk, I'm interested in action."

The medical examiner had ruled Garner's death a homicide. State charges could have ranged from murder to reckless endangerment.

Garner, who had asthma, could be heard on a cellphone video shouting, "I can't breathe" at least eight times as Pantaleo takes him down in what appears to be a chokehold, an action the New York Police Department prohibits. He died in a hospital hours later.

The video was shot by a citizen standing near the confrontation.

Family members expressed shock at the grand jury news - but said they will not give up the pursuit of justice.

"The fight isn't over - it's just begun," said the widow of Eric Garner, Esaw Garnder. She added that her husband would not be around for Christmas or any other special day anymore with the family.

"Why? Because a cop did wrong," she said to a room packed with about 200 community members and members of the media. "As long as I have a breath in my body, I will fight the fight."

Family lawyer Jonathan Moore said he was "actually astonished based on the evidence of the videotape, and the medical examiner, that this grand jury at this time wouldn't indict for anything."

In his first public comments, Pantaleo said he prays for Garner's family and hopes they accept his condolences.

"I became a police officer to help people and to protect those who can't protect themselves," he said in the statement. "It is never my intention to harm anyone, and I feel very bad about the death of Mr. Garner."

Police union officials and Pantaleo's lawyer argued that the officer used a takedown move taught by the police department, not a banned maneuver, because Garner was resisting arrest. They said his poor health was the main reason he died.

Standing with the widow, mother and children of Garner, the Rev. Al Sharpton decried the grand jury decision at the Harlem, N.Y., headquarters of Sharpton's National Action Network, a civil rights organization.

"How many people have to die before people have to understand this is not an illusion?" Sharpton asked, as one of Garner's daughters wiped away tears.

"This is a reality that America has got to come to terms with," he said.

Sharpton called for a national march to take place in Washington Dec. 13 to pres

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btw, Mr Garner's crime? selling ciggerettes on the street. no, seriously.