Taxes: Cost of Liberty

[robitusinz]

  Bleh...see, this is a fine example of the problem with the US.  Everybody has an opinion based on hearsay or, in some cases, pulled straight outta their ass.  It's almost impossible to wade through the vast mountains of shit to formulate any sort of reasonable compromise or resolution.  Here, we have it on a micro scale.  In reality, it occurs on a macro scale.  The media controls opinion, which then becomes the opinion of the people...and by people, I mean the average grunt.

  The thing is, everyone thinks their opinion is right, 100%, no flaws.  Nobody acknowledges their own selfishness, and nobody takes the time to look at things from someone else's point of view.  Every issue has at least 2 sides to it...just look at the mini-debate over disability benefits that sprang up in this thread.  Neither side is ever completely right nor completely wrong...they just happen to benefit different people.  Until people realize that they're simply citizens of the world, and that they're going to have to give up certain advantages in order to allow everyone those same opportunities, nothing's ever going to get better.  People are just too selfish, to quick to join in mob mentality, and too intolerant of each other to ever evolve as a society.

  And another thing...can we stop talking about $500 hammers?  That's fucking retarded, at best.  First of all, there are no factual figures that even mention a $500 hammer...we're just going by someone's make-beleive on that, and it makes for an unsound argument.  Secondly, if there were a $500 hammer, it wouldn't be because the gov't paid $500 for it...that's probably the total cost model of said hammer.  In essence, it's what the hammer "really" costs, when added in aggregate to the rest of the federal budget.  Nobody's ever paid $500 for a hammer.  But, when said hammer is used for the construction of some gov't building, its "cost" may be inflated due to many factors related to the project.

[National Acrobat]

I think that one thing that people really fail to grasp about taxes, is simply how much they affect almost every public service you want.

It really came to light here in Virginia a few years ago when the Governor at the time, Jim Gilmore, decided to elimate 70% of the personal property tax on vehicles (which included cars, trucks, boats, planes, etc.) simply because he and his party decided that people shouldn't pay taxes on them beyond the sales tax.

What they failed to take into account was the fact that the localities and counties derived nearly 50% of their local tax revenue from this source.

Well, now our property is being re-assessed every nine months, and there are cases of people having the values of their property rise over 100%.

Why?

To make up for the lost revenue in order to pay the police, fire, EMS, Schools, teachers, etc.

What's worse is that fewer people own property than own vehicles, so now those of us who do own property are being asked to shoulder an even larger burden.

I think if people in general would just take the time to understand how taxes and revenue work, and then understand how our government works, the debate might make more sense.

[Celestial Goblin]

I'm cynical, but did that governor of yours, did he own vehicles? Like, a few cars and a nice boat?
Just an innocent inquiry:)

[National Acrobat]

Of course he did.

Him and the state legislature that supported it felt, quite simply, that it wasn't fair to tax people based on the types of vehicles that they wished to purchase, and that they already were taxed at a rate relative to the purchase price when they paid the sales tax on the vehicle.

I think eliminating the vehicle tax is a good idea, but not until you've figured out where the lost revenue comes from.

Here in Virginia, in addition to the Vehicle tax (which was merely reduced to 30% of the value), we also pay sales tax on the vehicles when purchased and we pay 25$ a year to purchase the decal for the county or locality that you reside in, for the right to have the vehicle registered in the area you live.

So, I understand the reasoning. I just don't get the short-sightedness of wiping out a huge source of revenue without thinking about the consequences.

[Zakharra]

The thing is, everyone thinks their opinion is right, 100%, no flaws.  Nobody acknowledges their own selfishness, and nobody takes the time to look at things from someone else's point of view.  Every issue has at least 2 sides to it...just look at the mini-debate over disability benefits that sprang up in this thread.  Neither side is ever completely right nor completely wrong...they just happen to benefit different people. Until people realize that they're simply citizens of the world, and that they're going to have to give up certain advantages in order to allow everyone those same opportunities, nothing's ever going to get better.  People are just too selfish, to quick to join in mob mentality, and too intolerant of each other to ever evolve as a society.

I live in the world, I am NOT a citizen of the world, but I am a citizen of America. Why do I have to give some things up? Why can't the rulers of the other nations actually get off of their corrupt asses and actually do something good for their people instead of lining their own pockets and wasting the money of their nation?  Many people bash the USA (not neccessarily here in Elliquiy)), but they forget or purposefully ignore one fact, The USA is the most prosperous and powerful nation in the world. Economically, militarily and culturaly(this is debateable, but relatively true)). If it is so bad, why do so many people want to come here?

The US is #1. The lone superpowe. We use that power to try to do some good and all people can do is bitch about it. The US is thew world's policeman and we are policing the world of the evil that EVERYONE else is ignoring. Like Iraq, Iran and N. Korea. The US would still be ignoring those nations and passing worthless resolutions if the US had not acted. Unlike some nations and the UN, the US has testosterone. There comes a time when you have to stop talking and just fight.  If you talk for too long, you will lose the war.

This is not a slam to populations, but to some nations governments for being spinless and casterated.

[National Acrobat]

That reminds, I never understood why there was a need for a space program? It seems to be a dangous waste of money the more I think about it.

Resources, economic and technological development, scientific research, and eventually far in the future, discovery and exploration.

I'm for social programs that go to those truely in need. Not the sponges that live off of it. It needs to be tightened up alot more.

Amen to that. I can give first hand experience as to the utter failure of the Welfare Job Training Program. At the place I worked before my current job, we tried to hire a bunch of these folks, but they were so used to sponging off of the government and not working, that they never lasted more than the interview. A few of them actually would tell my boss what they would and would not do if they got hired.

Here in VA they have really tightened those restrictions. Basically if you are able to work, you lose your welfare.

So, you are saying that the reason there is a space program is so that other planets can be ravaged like this one has been?
Damn and there I was thinking that it was to satisfy human's inquisitive nature and the need to understand what is beyond the present limits of our capabilities.

It will be both in the long run, but the odds of us actually getting to a planet with a population anytime in the next several hundred years are nil. Another thing to consider will be that eventually, when the earth's population is too large to be supported by the planet, our future generations will have to look elsewhere...

[RogueJedi]

That is true Rat Salad.

But, back to taxes.  In Virginia, our esteemed former governor raised taxes a couple of years ago, the largest tax increase at one time in the history of the Commonwealth.  Now, people will argue about taxes anyways.  The problem I have with it is, Warner, the former governor, made the pledge on the campaign trail and after he took office, that he would "not raise taxes, period."  A couple years later, after reports that Virginia was facing a budget shortfall, he passed the $1.4 billion tax increase.

Two weeks later, the state government came out with figures that Virginia actually had a surplus, and not a deficit.  Politicians have a tendency to lie, regardless of their party or other associations.

[National Acrobat]

I don't dispute that at all.

In fact, the Conservatives in the State Legislature fought tooth and nail to not have the increase, and I supported that movement. I still do.

The surplus, however, can be a misnomer, as it's only a surplus on paper. Many factors can raise, lower or totally deplete the surplus, or put us in the red.

The issue I have with the car tax rollback, was that while the State may have had a surplus, my county didn't, and the roll back on car tax directly affected me, with my property tax being raised, and my property being reassed every 9 months now instead of every 12 months.

I am hoping that the current impasse over the 1 Billion Dollar transportation issue doesn't result in higher taxes. The State Senate and the Governor want to raise taxes again in order to cover it, while the House wants to slash spending in some areas and not tax us anymore.

A tough call, because then you get into the debate over where to cut.

The money has to come from somewhere, but I feel I am already paying enough here in Va, given that we also have a state Income Tax as well.

[Swedish Steel]

I personaly just love taxes. They have given us free healthcare, free schooling, a pension to live on while your old etc. I have no problems paying taxes, though I am as ancious as the next guy that the money isn't missused.

[Zakharra]

I personaly just love taxes. They have given us free healthcare, free schooling, a pension to live on while your old etc. I have no problems paying taxes, though I am as ancious as the next guy that the money isn't missused.

tThat's all nice and dandy. IF they are used well. Which they aren't. The government always finds a way to spend. If there is a surplus, they spend it. If there is a defocot, they spend that too. The government can  never do with more and actually live within a budget. For most politicians, it is tax raises that are needed to cover any shortfal. And in the next year's budget they always need more money.

Here in Iadho, in the cocunty I live in, once you buy a place, the value is assessed and taxes levied. Then  they stay pretty much the same until it is sold. The taxes/value can go up or down by only 3% for taxing purposes, so property owners are very concious of levies and things.  We recently defeated a new recreational taxing district that the county  wanted to set up to build a new rec center. The supporters of the center said that everyone would be able to use it, but it was going to be built with only the money that the land owners were forced to cough up. We did not agree with that and it went down to a 80% Nay! vote.

[Ariabella]

Ah but here in the US we don't get free medical care. Something like that would make it much more bareable. Now, back in Maryland, you have sales tax, property tax, luxury tax, income tax plus the county you live in adds what they call a piggy back tax to your state tax at tax time, which usually runs about 50%.

[Swedish Steel]

Yes, free health care is a beautiful thing. You should seriously consider trying to get your politicians to spend some of your money there, I'm sure they can find the funds somewhere. Isn't that defence (or should that be offence?) industry of yours sort of a financial black hole?  ;)

[Zakharra]

Yes, free health care is a beautiful thing. You should seriously consider trying to get your politicians to spend some of your money there, I'm sure they can find the funds somewhere. Isn't that defence (or should that be offence?) industry of yours sort of a financial black hole?  ;)

No. The Department of Defense is not a financial black hole. It allows the US to exist free and to help other nations stay/be free. WWII and the Cold War are the best examples. The US military has allowed Europe to maintain it's militaries at a lower size than they otherwise would have had to do. The benefits of the military are not as visible as infastructure building is, but it's been an immense impact world wide.

I am not for free health care unless it can  be proven to work for a nation as large as the US is. National healthcare is more easily done for a smallker nation than a larger one.

I'm sure they can find the funds somewhere.

National healthcare also would require higher taxes and a new beaurocracy.

[RogueJedi]

National Healthcare would not work in this country!

Already, we are experiencing more illegal immigrants crossing our borders every week.  If we had National Healthcare, I can guarantee you that the politicians would give them access to it as well.  Americans don't like to be taxed, it's in our very nature (see 1770 and on).

And I agree with the State House Rat Salad.  We do not need more taxes raised.  If the governor and the State Senate cannot keep to budget, then find others that can.  For example, money is just being thrown at Education, and we are not seeing a lot of results because of that.  For instance, I live in one of the counties surrounding the City of Richmond.  Richmond throws no less than 5 times the amount of money into education and such.  Yet, they have the worst academics in the area.  I know of at least four counties and two other cities in the immediate area that are vastly superior, and spend quite a bit less (even with more students).  Chesterfield, Hanover, Henrico, Powhatan, City of Colonial Heights, and the City of Hopewell all outstrip the City of Richmond.

Money is not the answer to all problems.  And I wish the politician would understand that.

[National Acrobat]

I know very well the City of Richmond and it's Education Department. I lived in the city for 5 years, and when my wife and I got married, promptly moved to a suburban county adjacent to it, because we knew that our children would be better off. My kids are getting an excellent public education in the county we reside in, because our county knows how to manage their resources.

My Sister-in-Law lives in the City of Richmond, but sends my niece to private school because the public schools are abyssmal.

Their needs to be cuts in certain programs and better management of funds. VDOT is a perfect example of that.

[Ariabella]

Not only that, but raising the pay of a poor teacher is not going to improve their teaching skills, so the argument of more money for better teachers bears no weight to me. We saw the same thing in Maryland. The academics have removed anything that stimulates the child into wanting to learn or keeping them interested in learning. And the answer to better grades is not to have them use a calculator or computer. A frend of mine went to the school for help with her son's handwriting skills and their reply was for him to type all of his work on the computer. They're certainly not learning mathematics by using a calculator.

[RogueJedi]

Yeah, well I graduated from Chesterfield County schools (though I was only at my high school for just over a year).  Alot of areas of the state need to have the fat trimmed.

And I agree with you Cindy, but the teacher's unions hold enough power that they don't care if a teacher is inept, that teacher must be paid "a better salary".  It is one of the few professions where you can be horrible and still get rewarded.  I have no problem with awarding teachers who are truly above satisfactory.  But, that won't change until the unions change their policies.  And I am not against teachers themselves, just the system that allows mediocrity.

[Jefepato]

In countries with national healthcare, wealthy people who get sick tend to hop on a plane to the United States.

I believe that is all that needs to be said.

[Swedish Steel]

Yeah, great argument against free healthcare that. I think I'll petition for an emediate dismantling of our system cause it clearly doesn't work.

[National Acrobat]

My step-father is Canadien, and doesn't use his free healthcare at all. Of course, he's a resident of the US, but never would consider going home for the health benefits. In his words 'It scares me'.

'nuff said I think. His parents always come to the US for their more urgent health needs also.

It takes too long to get appointments for many things, and according to him, the equipment is the best.

[RogueJedi]

Understand, I am not critisizing you Swedish... it just won't work in this country.

For my own sake, I also don't want it to work, but that is me.  Besides, then you run into other problems, so I am content to stay as I am regarding healthcare.

[National Acrobat]

Yeah, it's been brought up many times in this country, and really starts very bitter at times debates.

[Zakharra]

Yeah, it's been brought up many times in this country, and really starts very bitter at times debates.

*cough* HillaryCare!*cough*

[Swedish Steel]

I must say I'm suprised you feel that way. Over here we are pretty gratefull we have free healthcare, and look at your system with horror. Sure, ours is far from perfect, but it's better than the alternative. I feel we won't be able to change eachothers minds regarding this, but that's cool, not every argument has to have a winner.

[Zakharra]

 We know that beaurocracies do not work the larger they get. For national healthcare to work in the US, the beaurocracy would have to be huge and massively funded.  Oregon tried to do that and the voters said 'No' when they had the chance to vote on it.  Massachutsets has a new healthcare system. Time will see if it works. Part of it requires by law.. that everyone either has to but health care/insurance, or pays higher taxes to cover any possibly use that the individual might have of the system. It forgets that some poeple can pay for it themselves and others do not want healthcare at this time.

We also tend to think that it's the individual's job to see that they are cared for. Not the State's. I do not want the US to become the nannystate that Europe seems to be. With entitlements from cradle to grave. People need to have pride in themselves and their nation, not to be coddled by that state. For if the state takes care of everything, then you have no freedom if it does something you don't like. Aristocracies went out of favor in the US in the 1700's.