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Storytelling question: evil smiles, characters hamming it up etc.

Started by Beorning, April 17, 2017, 09:34:48 AM

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Beorning

Okay, this might be a somewhat weird question, but bear with me :)

Im various kinds of fiction, it's often said (or shown) that an antagonist makes an evil smile. An example - look at the delightfully evil facial expressions of the witch-ified Princess Elaine in the old Jack the Giant Killer movie:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7M6qjIlQxiE

Other example - Astronema's evil smirk in one Power Rangers season:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QkGMieOCyIM

I *like* villains acting in the way. But I've been thinking lately - do real people, even real *evil* people, behave like that? Or is the "evil smile" trope something that doesn't really happen in real life? And if that's the case, then is writing villains that way a case of unrealistic writing?

On related note - is Voldemort in this particular scene realistic?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cUBFN8KUrOc

Does *anyone* behave that way at all? If not, then it is bad acting, then?

Also - Zartan and Cobra Commander here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22bHxTTLcdc

I absolutely *love* Zartan in that scene - GI Joe: Retaliation was a bad movie, but Jonathan Pryce was awesome. Still, is it a convincing portrayal of a psychopathic villain, or do I simply have a bad taste? Also, what do you think of Cobra Commander here?

Overall, any opinions? Do you think it's okay to write villains making evil smiles, laughing or behaving in a stylized or theatrical manner? Or is it a poor stylistic choice, a case of bad writing?

midnightblack

Nothing blows me away quite like a woman with a very expressive face. When it comes to evil characters, the magic lies in expressing confidence, sadistic joy or unbreakable resolution. For good characters it's generally exactly the opposite: lack of confidence, anguish and hopelessness. Raw sensuality is also nice, but in more restricted contexts. Whenever I write something regarding a good versus evil conflict between women, what's most important to me is to try and get those facial expressions in the reader's mind. That's where most of the magic is as far as I'm concerned, along with general body language. Feel free to take a peek into the Cove of Smutty Secrets linked in my signature, and do contribute there if you wish. It's pretty empty now, but I'll hoard stuff in the future, on this precise subject.

I don't know about how realistic this kind of portrayal is, but it doesn't really matter to me. As long as it's not overdone or hammy and it gets the point across (that there's a very evil woman about to do something terrible and nobody can really stop her), it's always worth exploring.
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Nico

I think it is worth pointing out that 'evil'  is just another label. It can mean so much and what one person views as evil, isn't for another. I guess it's a very deep pool, like many other labels are and - in the end and it's likely close to impossible to determine if something is unrealistic or not. Fiction is just that, after all.

Personally, I wouldn't worry about 'having bad taste', either. You said that you are enjoying it. Nothing else really matters beyond that - least of all what other people think about your tastes.

Oniya

Oh yes.

Ted Bundy

The guy they invented the term 'serial killer' for.

Diazien Hossencofft


(This guy convinced his girlfriend that his wife was an alien queen who needed to be killed and eaten.  Then he claimed he planted evidence to frame the girlfriend and that someone else killed his wife. The body was never found.)

Jared Loughner

Tuscon shooter, killed 6, wounded 14 (including a US Representative, Gabrielle Giffords)
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Beorning

Oh wow, that last photo...  :o

Now every time I'll be watching that Princess Elaine clip, I'll be seeing that guy in my head. Gee, thank, Oniya :D

Oniya

If anything, I think the smiles in fiction are a bit tamer than the real ones.  I left out Charles Manson, because he was/is known for actively 'hamming' for the camera.  I watched the Diazien Hossencofft trial, and that man always had a self-satisfied, patronizing smirk on his face.
"Language was invented for one reason, boys - to woo women.~*~*~Don't think it's all been done before
And in that endeavor, laziness will not do." ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think we're never gonna win this war
Robin Williams-Dead Poets Society ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think your world's gonna fall apart
I do have a cause, though.  It's obscenity.  I'm for it.  - Tom Lehrer~*~All you need is your beautiful heart
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Mathim

I think if a person is smiling like that to be intentionally creepy, it's fine. I would cite Wednesday Addams from Addams Family Values as an example of someone who, while not necessarily 'evil' (or at least not the antagonist of the story) is going out of their way to creep the shit out of people with a smile. If they're not doing it to give off a creepy vibe, then they shouldn't. The only other occasion would be something like in Death Note where, just as L lays dying on the floor, Light smiles at him in that triumphant sneer to let him know that yes, it was him all along.

As for laughing, I would take the Joker (both the 1980's movie version and the Dark Knight version) as the best use of 'evil' laughter. He doesn't just reveal schemes and laugh maniacally at his own genius (not just perceived, that motherfucker is almost precognitive in how good he is at reading people and planning precision), but rather laughs as he's performing actions (running over things in the big truck during the chase) or in response to Batman asking why he wants to kill him, so being prompted to have a real reason to laugh. Laughing at one's own perceived cleverness (Cruella De Ville in the live-action 101 Dalmations, for instance) is bad writing, but then that's a kid's movie, so it makes sense there; nowhere else, though.
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RedRose

If you can find pics or quotes from his trial... "Doctor" Petiot, who also called himself Docteur Satan. Perfect real life example. He behaves, speaks, smirks, like a movie villain. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcel_Petiot (ftr skip pics of what the policemen found unless you're certain you can handle it)
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FigTree

Humans smile for all kinds of reasons - when we're happy, sure, but plenty of people also smile when they're uncomfortable, or as their version of a "neutral face" to cover up when they're upset or unsure of something, or even when they're angry. (My friends joke that they know when I'm getting pissed in a polite social interaction because I get increasingly perky.) From a writing point of view, it might be useful to consider what kind of smile is going on (a thin-lipped "I'm tolerating this" smile is different from a happy grin is different from a trying-to-be-sexy smirk, etc.), but I don't see any reason why any given "evil" person would smile more or less than any given other person. After all, they don't think they're evil!
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Egoiste

I can't view the first clip, and the others lack a certain context but I think Voldemort's behaviour in that scene is very realistic given his character. Enough so that it becomes awkward for the viewer. His smiles and laughter are so obviously a cheap affectation and (this comes off even more strongly when he hugs Draco) you get the feeling he's seen other people do this, but isn't really sure why they do it or even what it means. However he's clearly trying to evoke a certain benevolence which he has literally no idea how to evoke, and doesn't understand anyway. He has no intention of being magnanimous in his victory but is self-obsessed enough to want to fake it. That's how it seems to me anyway.

HannibalBarca

I think that's the exact point, to me.  A psychopath--like Voldemort is supposed to be--doesn't grasp emotion because they can't; it isn't in their brain function.  Their attempts at affectation come off as confusing, bizarre, and creepy.  It's one kind of villain smile--but not the best, truest form.

A 'villain smile'--in my opinion--is one where the character fully understands the emotional implications of their actions as well as their effect on their adversaries--and revels in it.  Think of this scene of Darth Malgus from one of the Star Wars: The Old Republic MMO cinematics.  Look at Malgus' smirk at 7:48--that's what I call a great villain smile.
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Oniya

Quote from: HannibalBarca on May 06, 2017, 11:35:29 PM
I think that's the exact point, to me.  A psychopath--like Voldemort is supposed to be--doesn't grasp emotion because they can't; it isn't in their brain function.  Their attempts at affectation come off as confusing, bizarre, and creepy.  It's one kind of villain smile--but not the best, truest form.

A 'villain smile'--in my opinion--is one where the character fully understands the emotional implications of their actions as well as their effect on their adversaries--and revels in it.  Think of this scene of Darth Malgus from one of the Star Wars: The Old Republic MMO cinematics.  Look at Malgus' smirk at 7:48--that's what I call a great villain smile.

Or older - when Palpatine tells Luke to 'strike me down', knowing full well that Vader is virtually obligated to react in some way, and that someone is about to get toasted.  He's pretty sure it's not going to be him, because he's got that much of an ego - so he 'knows' that either Luke is going to kill his father or Vader is going to kill his son.  Or maybe he'll kill one of them, and leave the other emotionally scarred.
"Language was invented for one reason, boys - to woo women.~*~*~Don't think it's all been done before
And in that endeavor, laziness will not do." ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think we're never gonna win this war
Robin Williams-Dead Poets Society ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think your world's gonna fall apart
I do have a cause, though.  It's obscenity.  I'm for it.  - Tom Lehrer~*~All you need is your beautiful heart
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Egoiste

QuoteOr older - when Palpatine tells Luke to 'strike me down', knowing full well that Vader is virtually obligated to react in some way, and that someone is about to get toasted.  He's pretty sure it's not going to be him, because he's got that much of an ego - so he 'knows' that either Luke is going to kill his father or Vader is going to kill his son.  Or maybe he'll kill one of them, and leave the other emotionally scarred.

Palpatine is a vertiable well-spring of wonderful villain smiles. Gotta love that guy. He just gets such job satisfaction I can't help envying him. Even when Yoda sends him flying, and he's hanging off a Senate pod he's still laughing it up. He must know that evil will always triumph because good is dumb.

Dew eet!

Beorning

When it comes to Palpatine, my favourite parts are not his smiles, but these parts where he shows his obsession or anger. That bit from RotS when Mace Windu arrives to arrest him, that quietly angry "Are you threatening me, Master Jedi..?" - that's what I love.

In any case, my question stands: to people behave in that way in real life?