PewDiePie and the bad word dramaz

[Lustful Bride]

I suppose the issue is that I don't see just using a word as being racist - he had no intention behind it, he was just pissed off and chose a stupid word.

I'll stand up and say he's an idiot, and that he shouldn't have said it - again because it was stupid - but I don't think he was racist.

If I did see someone waving a confederate flag and shouting how all black people should be slaves, then that definitely would be racist, and I wouldn't hesitate to condemn it, but I feel that some perspective is being lost in the drama of it all.

The problem that seems to be messing us all up comes twofold.

1: this is not the first time he has courted racial drama. It is possibly the second or third time.

2:His usage of the word was also spur of the moment rather than a deliberate pre planned use.

Its like that one channel model (or whatever beauty product it was) who wrote a post about all whites being racist from birth regardless of circumstance.

It is spur of the moment emotions overriding thoughts and reason. There is a difference between doing it under emotional turmoil and sewing soemown and walking up to tell them something bigoted. Or just using it casually without a care.

Pewd used it in anger at s game and it sets up a different scenario than pre meditated.

Apologies for errors am typing on phone. And sorry if I used any circular logic I'm an idiot 80% of the time. :P

[la dame en noir]

This has a lot to do with all the build up. He spat at one margalized group and now another. Both he gave cheap, weak apologies.

I've already said I'm not surprised by his stupidity. I'm moreso upset that I keep seeing the same narrative of 'well, I don't see it...lemme protect him" in my eyes.

This is why I said it doesn't affect you the same way it does me.

I think if I keep repeating myself, I'll just sound like a broken record. The majority of people in this thread have their set opinions and some of that can't be changed.

[Suiko]

This has a lot to do with all the build up. He spat at one margalized group and now another. Both he gave cheap, weak apologies.

I've already said I'm not surprised by his stupidity. I'm moreso upset that I keep seeing the same narrative of 'well, I don't see it...lemme protect him" in my eyes.

This is why I said it doesn't affect you the same way it does me.

I think if I keep repeating myself, I'll just sound like a broken record. The majority of people in this thread have their set opinions and some of that can't be changed.

Hmm, it does make a difference that he's been a dick before... I think the reason why I might seem to be protecting him is simply because I like to try and see the best in people - I don't watch his videos, I don't know him at all so I've got no stake either way in this.

I think I would point the finger more towards the fact that doing these controversial things gets people talking about him, and more views for him=more money. The very fact that I looked him up after this is a sign that it's worked.

You're right that it doesn't affect me the same, and I really don't want to seem like I'm being dismissive, I'm just trying to explain my thought process in the same way you are yours.

[la dame en noir]

I understand. I'm sorry. I take it as dismissive because that's what I encounter, in fact...it already happened twice in this thread. You're definitely welcome to your opinion.

I mean, I'm the person that plays cards against humanity, so I'm not always bothered...but this guy is just...he...lol

On my FB my white friends are the most upset when I first saw the article I said "I'm not surprised, he's an idiot". And my black friends were the same way, we discussed it and we're tired lol.

It's a constant battle.

[la dame en noir]

I also agree, just giving them at attention isn't great...but...but at the same time, problematic behavior should be called out.

[Darkcide]

Well no, I don't think words are racist - being racist is a mindset, like any kind of negative perception. I get that certain words are loaded with historical baggage, but like I've said before, I don't think a person saying a specific words automatically makes them racist.

And as for the chill out bit... well... yeah, to be honest. There has to come a point when a line is drawn, or else things can never be recovered from. At least that's my opinion.

Words do matter though, and even if you might not have an adverse reaction to them, a lot of people do. That word at least to me? Represents hundreds of years of oppression, it is dehumanizing, and it also still used frequently to disparage us. I cannot speak for all black people, but I definitely have a reaction to the word. But I am also cognizant of my history, I am aware of what named relatives have endured, and I am able to contextualize the racism that I have faced in my life. So when people say it is just a word? That is great that you're able to feel that way and that it doesn't affect you. I have a reaction to the word.

As far as whether or not the guy is racist? Shouting racial slurs in anger means something. I can't say for certain he is a racist, but my gut says probably. But there are varying degrees of racism. Whether you actively want certain members of a race to die, or you believe in negative stereotypes or you compare BLM to the KKK. Sometimes? It is even having a 'friend' of a different race, and making it very clear to them that they are of a different race.

[la dame en noir]

Words do matter though, and even if you might not have an adverse reaction to them, a lot of people do. That word at least to me? Represents hundreds of years of oppression, it is dehumanizing, and it also still used frequently to disparage us. I cannot speak for all black people, but I definitely have a reaction to the word. But I am also cognizant of my history, I am aware of what named relatives have endured, and I am able to contextualize the racism that I have faced in my life. So when people say it is just a word? That is great that you're able to feel that way and that it doesn't affect you. I have a reaction to the word.

As far as whether or not the guy is racist? Shouting racial slurs in anger means something. I can't say for certain he is a racist, but my gut says probably. But there are varying degrees of racism. Whether you actively want certain members of a race to die, or you believe in negative stereotypes or you compare BLM to the KKK. Sometimes? It is even having a 'friend' of a different race, and making it very clear to them that they are of a different race.

100% Agree with this statement.

[Oniya]

I know his name because the little Oni is a gamer and watches game-oriented videos.  (Not his, but other channels.)  Every so often, I'll see a mention of him in a comment section, or see a link to an article about him after viewing a different 'this YouTuber done fucked up' article.  And like I said before, there are some words that reveal you to be a 'not-nice-person'.  Even if we assume (extremely charitably) that PDP used those words because he has no filter, the only way he's going to get a filter is if he sees there is a negative consequence.  His legion of fan-twerps are doing their level best to ensure that he doesn't.

[Regina Minx]

I suppose the issue is that I don't see just using a word as being racist - he had no intention behind it, he was just pissed off and chose a stupid word.

I'll stand up and say he's an idiot, and that he shouldn't have said it - again because it was stupid - but I don't think he was racist.

The beauty of arguing about conditional probabilities is that it sheds light on precisely this kind of fuzzy thinking. You've already agreed with me in principle that using racial slurs is 100% expected on racism. But it's not AS expected on non-racism. Even if you disagree with me that using racial slurs is only 35% likely, you still have some estimation on how likely you think it is. Let's go all the way up to 60%. You are being almost twice as generous as I am in this estimation, but this is for illustrative purposes only.

If you think something is 100% likely on h, but 60% likely on ~h, then that still means that there are 5:3 odds of it being racist. That means that the evidence we have (racial slurs being used) is STILL more expected on a theory of racism than non-racism.

Here is why I go Bayesian. There are two competing theories under discussion. H and ~h. They are constructed in this argument to be both all-encompassing and mutually exclusive. We then must consider how likely EACH is under any piece of evidence. That is, what is the probability of having this evidence under theory h? What is the probability that we would have this SAME evidence under ~h?

What you are doing is over-emphasizing the P(e|~h) (the probability that PewDiePie would use a racial slur if he's not a racist) while at the same time failing to acknowledge P(e|h) (the probability that PewDiePie would use a racial slur if he was a racist).

I hesitate to speak for her, but what I think bothers la dame (and me too, for that matter) is the fact that people who want to overemphasize the chance that this signifies that PewDiePie isn't racist will not acknowledge that we encounter masked racism in our lives all the time.  We are subject to looks, tones of voices, changes of body language, and other subtle indications that we are suspect because we're ethnic minorities. These are things that whisper racism. PewDiePie using a racial slur SCREAMS it.

We don't expect you to hear the whispers. But for you to say that you can't hear it when it's screamed diminishes us and our experiences as women of color.

[la dame en noir]

Omg - the comments are rich on the youtube video lol

"Blacks have so much privilege these days"

"Everyone say Nigger"

"Why is everyone butthurt"

"The Swedes oppressed my people and I'm not butthurt"

"You don't have to be black to be a Nigger, you just have to piss of Pewdiepie, lmao"

Also followed by a troll saying that black people are aggressive and rough up cops and that's why we get shot every time.




If this isn't proof as to why lots of black people get agitated so fast, I don't know what is. Lol God.

[Suiko]

I understand. I'm sorry. I take it as dismissive because that's what I encounter, in fact...it already happened twice in this thread. You're definitely welcome to your opinion.

I mean, I'm the person that plays cards against humanity, so I'm not always bothered...but this guy is just...he...lol

On my FB my white friends are the most upset when I first saw the article I said "I'm not surprised, he's an idiot". And my black friends were the same way, we discussed it and we're tired lol.

It's a constant battle.

It's totally okay. It's more personal to you, so of course you're going to react more strongly. He definitely is an idiot, so we can agree on that much ^^;

I also agree, just giving them at attention isn't great...but...but at the same time, problematic behavior should be called out.

It's a tricky medium to find. I think, hard as it is, in this case the best thing to do is ignore him. Because I really do think he is doing it for the views, for the publicity... and the more it works the more he'll do it, if he's done it before too. Again, he's a dick, but that's all he is.

Words do matter though, and even if you might not have an adverse reaction to them, a lot of people do. That word at least to me? Represents hundreds of years of oppression, it is dehumanizing, and it also still used frequently to disparage us. I cannot speak for all black people, but I definitely have a reaction to the word. But I am also cognizant of my history, I am aware of what named relatives have endured, and I am able to contextualize the racism that I have faced in my life. So when people say it is just a word? That is great that you're able to feel that way and that it doesn't affect you. I have a reaction to the word.

As far as whether or not the guy is racist? Shouting racial slurs in anger means something. I can't say for certain he is a racist, but my gut says probably. But there are varying degrees of racism. Whether you actively want certain members of a race to die, or you believe in negative stereotypes or you compare BLM to the KKK. Sometimes? It is even having a 'friend' of a different race, and making it very clear to them that they are of a different race.

Like I asked la dame earlier, what's the solution? I'm afraid I'm a strong advocate of being able to use whatever words you like - freedom of speech, but not freedom of consequence. We have hate crime laws and anti-discrimination laws... but at the end of the day you can't force a change in mindset, which is what racism is.

Shouting the word in anger is going to get a reaction, it's going to cause controversy, and that is always good for the bank. That's my gut reaction.

I know his name because the little Oni is a gamer and watches game-oriented videos.  (Not his, but other channels.)  Every so often, I'll see a mention of him in a comment section, or see a link to an article about him after viewing a different 'this YouTuber done fucked up' article.  And like I said before, there are some words that reveal you to be a 'not-nice-person'.  Even if we assume (extremely charitably) that PDP used those words because he has no filter, the only way he's going to get a filter is if he sees there is a negative consequence.  His legion of fan-twerps are doing their level best to ensure that he doesn't.

But you can be a bad person and not a racist <<;

I feel awkward because it's sounding even to me like I'm defending the guy personally. I'm not. And the filter stuff comes back to the internet being a very... liberating place, for lack of a better word. Do we want to equate things people do online with things in real life? That idea makes me a bit uncomfortable to be honest.

[la dame en noir]

I know his name because the little Oni is a gamer and watches game-oriented videos.  (Not his, but other channels.)  Every so often, I'll see a mention of him in a comment section, or see a link to an article about him after viewing a different 'this YouTuber done fucked up' article.  And like I said before, there are some words that reveal you to be a 'not-nice-person'.  Even if we assume (extremely charitably) that PDP used those words because he has no filter, the only way he's going to get a filter is if he sees there is a negative consequence.  His legion of fan-twerps are doing their level best to ensure that he doesn't.

Man, his fans are the absolute worse! You should see the comment section.

[Suiko]

Man, his fans are the absolute worse! You should see the comment section.

My morbid curiosity makes me want to look <<

[Lustful Bride]

I know his name because the little Oni is a gamer and watches game-oriented videos.  (Not his, but other channels.)  Every so often, I'll see a mention of him in a comment section, or see a link to an article about him after viewing a different 'this YouTuber done fucked up' article.  And like I said before, there are some words that reveal you to be a 'not-nice-person'.  Even if we assume (extremely charitably) that PDP used those words because he has no filter, the only way he's going to get a filter is if he sees there is a negative consequence.  His legion of fan-twerps are doing their level best to ensure that he doesn't.

+1

Famboyism of anything is close to fanaticism. It reputed the glory of anything to the point of its detriment. He won't change because his fans will flip the bill for him and he doesn't have to change. He is stuck in a bratty mindset.

Saying sorry isn't enough. It just doesn't make the problem go away. But until he actually acts like an adult in sure irk be repeated again in the future in some way. As adults we all take personal responsibility for our words, behaviora, and feelings.

@La dame. Well to be fair it is YouTube. The site where the comment sections charge a rate of five brain cells per letter. :P

Some of those are sadly real. While others are just people throwing gasoline onto the fire because they find all the outrAge numerous.

I feel like the internet has facilitated a decrease in human empathy in the last decade.

[la dame en noir]

My morbid curiosity makes me want to look <<

I posted a few quotes lol.

[Suiko]

"You don't have to be black to be a Nigger, you just have to piss of Pewdiepie, lmao"

??? I feel worse off for having read that.

[la dame en noir]

+1

Famboyism of anything is close to fanaticism. It reputed the glory of anything to the point of its detriment. He won't change because his fans will flip the bill for him and he doesn't have to change. He is stuck in a bratty mindset.

Saying sorry isn't enough. It just doesn't make the problem go away. But until he actually acts like an adult in sure irk be repeated again in the future in some way. As adults we all take personal responsibility for our words, behaviora, and feelings.

@La dame. Well to be fair it is YouTube. The site where the comment sections charge a rate of five brain cells per letter. :P

Some of those are sadly real. While others are just people throwing gasoline onto the fire because they find all the outrAge numerous.

I feel like the internet has facilitated a decrease in human empathy in the last decade.

Yeah, of course - I didn't expect intelligent posts under that video, but I also see that on FB and I hear IRL. People are a trip. I've honestly learned to just laugh. Before I would rage, but my medication helps - I'm still upset though.

[WindFish]

The problem is that Felix wanted to insult someone. He easily could have said "asshole" or some other word, but instead he instinctively went for a racial slur. That tells me something about him - that he's comfortable using that word and that it's likely something that's in his vocabulary. That's why I'm inclined to believe that he's probably racist and why I think the "it's a heated gaming moment" and "it's just a joke" excuses don't hold water. He could have said any other insult, but he chose that word.

Let's keep this in mind:

1 - He's an adult who should know better. He does not get to claim ignorance, especially when he's been caught in racist incidents before.
2 - In regards to point 1, he has been caught in racist incidents before. Apologies are meaningless when he keeps on doing the same thing got him in trouble initially.
3 - He's a popular YouTuber with a massive following, and many of his fans are children. He needs to do better than this, otherwise his fans will start to emulate him and normalize that language.
4 - He's very popular with the alt-right, and I haven't seen any evidence that he has distanced himself from that group. I don't think he's an alt-right Neo-Nazi, but if he wants people to not believe he's racist, he should denounce these groups defending him.

You should see the comments section any time another YouTuber is critical of PewDiePie. There's a podcast I listen to and the hosts posted the video over the weekend. I posted a comment where I agreed with them and called out PewDiePie for his behavior. The hosts and myself were viciously attacked by his fans, including one alt-right troll who went so far as to stalk me across my YouTube comments over the weekend.

[Oniya]

But you can be a bad person and not a racist <<;

I feel awkward because it's sounding even to me like I'm defending the guy personally. I'm not. And the filter stuff comes back to the internet being a very... liberating place, for lack of a better word. Do we want to equate things people do online with things in real life? That idea makes me a bit uncomfortable to be honest.

The filter thing is more a question of knowing your audience and knowing what lines exist.  Some lines are hard-coded to a person (I won't do/say {x} because it makes my stomach turn.)  Some are coded to the audience (I'll show smut-stories to people on E, but not to my parents.)  Some of those are coded to personal safety/security (I won't say/do {x} at work, because I'll get fired.)  PDP - like most celebs - has more people seeing his actions than the rest of us.  Therefore, he needs to consider that broader audience.  (Which - spoiler alert - he doesn't seem to.)

[la dame en noir]

The problem is that Felix wanted to insult someone. He easily could have said "asshole" or some other word, but instead he instinctively went for a racial slur. That tells me something about him - that he's comfortable using that word and that it's likely something that's in his vocabulary. That's why I'm inclined to believe that he's probably racist and why I think the "it's a heated gaming moment" and "it's just a joke" excuses don't hold water. He could have said any other insult, but he chose that word.

Let's keep this in mind:

1 - He's an adult who should know better. He does not get to claim ignorance, especially when he's been caught in racist incidents before.
2 - In regards to point 1, he has been caught in racist incidents before. Apologies are meaningless when he keeps on doing the same thing got him in trouble initially.
3 - He's a popular YouTuber with a massive following, and many of his fans are children. He needs to do better than this, otherwise his fans will start to emulate him and normalize that language.
4 - He's very popular with the alt-right, and I haven't seen any evidence that he has distanced himself from that group. I don't think he's an alt-right Neo-Nazi, but if he wants people to not believe he's racist, he should denounce these groups defending him.

You should see the comments section any time another YouTuber is critical of PewDiePie. There's a podcast I listen to and the hosts posted the video over the weekend. I posted a comment where I agreed with them and called out PewDiePie for his behavior. The hosts and myself were viciously attacked by his fans, including one alt-right troll who went so far as to stalk me across my YouTube comments over the weekend.

That 100% sounds about right

[Darkcide]

It's totally okay. It's more personal to you, so of course you're going to react more strongly. He definitely is an idiot, so we can agree on that much ^^;
It's a tricky medium to find. I think, hard as it is, in this case the best thing to do is ignore him. Because I really do think he is doing it for the views, for the publicity... and the more it works the more he'll do it, if he's done it before too. Again, he's a dick, but that's all he is.
Like I asked la dame earlier, what's the solution? I'm afraid I'm a strong advocate of being able to use whatever words you like - freedom of speech, but not freedom of consequence. We have hate crime laws and anti-discrimination laws... but at the end of the day you can't force a change in mindset, which is what racism is.

Shouting the word in anger is going to get a reaction, it's going to cause controversy, and that is always good for the bank. That's my gut reaction.

But you can be a bad person and not a racist <<;

I feel awkward because it's sounding even to me like I'm defending the guy personally. I'm not. And the filter stuff comes back to the internet being a very... liberating place, for lack of a better word. Do we want to equate things people do online with things in real life? That idea makes me a bit uncomfortable to be honest.

As far as racism? People are always going to be racist. I know that and accept that. I believe people should be able to say whatever they want, and I also believe that people have to stand by what they say. You see videos of white kids getting beat the hell up for racial slurs, that is what happens. When some celebrity drops the n bomb and has to apologize? I am all for their career going down the crapper. I don't know if there is a right way to confront racism and to combat it. I personally do not believe in reaching out to them and trying to bridge any sort of divide, and I am fully aware my lack of empathy towards them encourages their bullshit. I think that it is just something we have to be vigilant about, and that is why I have a zero tolerance policy towards it. I see racism? I call it out.

[WindFish]

That 100% sounds about right

Yup, I wasn't surprised when I saw that behavior. If Felix doesn't want to be seen as racist or as a Neo-Nazi sympathizer, he needs to disavow these fans and discourage this behavior from them.

Although what struck me as strange is that YouTube seems to encourage it since they apparently got rid of the feature that allowed you to block trolls from replying to your comments.

[Suiko]

The problem is that Felix wanted to insult someone. He easily could have said "asshole" or some other word, but instead he instinctively went for a racial slur. That tells me something about him - that he's comfortable using that word and that it's likely something that's in his vocabulary. That's why I'm inclined to believe that he's probably racist and why I think the "it's a heated gaming moment" and "it's just a joke" excuses don't hold water. He could have said any other insult, but he chose that word.

Let's keep this in mind:

1 - He's an adult who should know better. He does not get to claim ignorance, especially when he's been caught in racist incidents before.
2 - In regards to point 1, he has been caught in racist incidents before. Apologies are meaningless when he keeps on doing the same thing got him in trouble initially.
3 - He's a popular YouTuber with a massive following, and many of his fans are children. He needs to do better than this, otherwise his fans will start to emulate him and normalize that language.
4 - He's very popular with the alt-right, and I haven't seen any evidence that he has distanced himself from that group. I don't think he's an alt-right Neo-Nazi, but if he wants people to not believe he's racist, he should denounce these groups defending him.

You should see the comments section any time another YouTuber is critical of PewDiePie. There's a podcast I listen to and the hosts posted the video over the weekend. I posted a comment where I agreed with them and called out PewDiePie for his behavior. The hosts and myself were viciously attacked by his fans, including one alt-right troll who went so far as to stalk me across my YouTube comments over the weekend.

It's a fair argument, I won't lie. I'm still gonna look at your points though, because I'm actually liking the conversation ^^;

1. Yep, he should know better and it was a dick move. No argument there.
2. Yep, again he should know better.
3. Here is where I get iffy - are most of his fans children? Though even if they are, is any creator responsible for their fanbase? If a filmmaker makes a racially-charged film or something, are they responsible for all the thousands of people who watch it? Surely no?
4. The alt-right thing makes me cringe. I've seen it batted around an awful lot - to the extent that it feels watered down to me. Kind of linked to the above comment, is he responsible for what other people decide about him? I bet that if he had denounced it, plenty of people would say "Oh he's just covering!" or something like that.

Also stalking is shitty and that shouldn't happen.

The filter thing is more a question of knowing your audience and knowing what lines exist.  Some lines are hard-coded to a person (I won't do/say {x} because it makes my stomach turn.)  Some are coded to the audience (I'll show smut-stories to people on E, but not to my parents.)  Some of those are coded to personal safety/security (I won't say/do {x} at work, because I'll get fired.)  PDP - like most celebs - has more people seeing his actions than the rest of us.  Therefore, he needs to consider that broader audience.  (Which - spoiler alert - he doesn't seem to.)

But why should any creator be responsible for who views their things? He gives people a product that they want - I don't get it myself, but millions of people do. There's no way he can know the mindset of so many people <<;

[Blythe]

3 - He's a popular YouTuber with a massive following, and many of his fans are children. He needs to do better than this, otherwise his fans will start to emulate him and normalize that language.

4 - He's very popular with the alt-right, and I haven't seen any evidence that he has distanced himself from that group. I don't think he's an alt-right Neo-Nazi, but if he wants people to not believe he's racist, he should denounce these groups defending him.

True. Makes me think about how upthread Vekseid mentioned how Felix's language is tailored to instill dependence. I do know I've seen unthinking fanaticism from a very vocal subset of Felix's followers (la dame's quotes from one of Felix's videos show exactly what sort of racial fanatical bullshit that Felix empowers when he repeatedly does this offensive racial crap), the kind that does comes from people who are extremely dependent and who do not like having their worldviews challenged.

[Suiko]

Ahh I am bad at keeping up with posts! Sorry.

As far as racism? People are always going to be racist. I know that and accept that. I believe people should be able to say whatever they want, and I also believe that people have to stand by what they say. You see videos of white kids getting beat the hell up for racial slurs, that is what happens. When some celebrity drops the n bomb and has to apologize? I am all for their career going down the crapper. I don't know if there is a right way to confront racism and to combat it. I personally do not believe in reaching out to them and trying to bridge any sort of divide, and I am fully aware my lack of empathy towards them encourages their bullshit. I think that it is just something we have to be vigilant about, and that is why I have a zero tolerance policy towards it. I see racism? I call it out.

I agree with everything you said there - apart from where you say that violence is 'just what happens'. I'm afraid you should never punch a person because of what words they use. Nope.

Call it out, protest it, make people aware that it's not okay - but don't assault people.