Slang as accepted language use.

[Tamhansen]

Was unsure about the title, but the question i want to set before you is about whether or not slang should be accepted as part of the official language?

The reason I ask is this. The city of Rotterdam in the Netherlands, having a huge number of unemployed (mostly immigrant descended) youth, who cannot land a job because they lack the full grasp of the Dutch language, having been raised in an area where most people speak a slang which is a mix of different immigrant languages and urban terms mixed into Dutch. They can use the language in shops, among friends and family throughout the country, so they feel no need to learn the proper official Dutch language. This leads to problems in school, and obviously problems with writing application letters.

Now the city started a project to teach these kids that streetslang isn't enough to make it in this world, that they need to learn proper Dutch. But this project has angered certain groups that proclaim street is just an evolution of the Dutch language, and that it's the employers and school systems who should adapt, claiming that street and MSN speak should be part of the official vocabulary.

How do you feel about that? Would you accept an application written in msnspeek if you were an employer. Do you think classes taught in street slang would be a good idea?

[Callie Del Noire]

I wouldn't since the preponderance of my clients won't most likely be speaking it. Language is another skill you must master to work, would you hire a quadriplegic to weld?  Sometimes the smaller group gets infringed upon in small ways but at least your government is trying to help. They are trying to teach the skills these kids need to succeed. That is a good thing.

Here the government would make excuses and move on.

[Lilias]

I'm a linguist by trade, and used to teach (not in recent years, but once a teacher, always a teacher), and just the thought of chatspeak in writing makes me twitch uncontrollably. :-X

[Nico]

and just the thought of chatspeak in writing makes me twitch uncontrollably. :-X

Oh yes, same here. ~nodnod~

[Sabre]

It's a form of pidgin language, and if one wishes to do business in areas where it is extensively used it has always been sensible to use it rather than one side learning the full language of the other.  That's just from a local business standpoint, and it's happened all throughout history.  But this is just between businessmen.  The consumer-service provider relationship may not work so well like this if just one section of the population speaks it.

However, for school and government and other official purposes it shouldn't be promoted, and as an immigrant myself I understand that such programs that try and coddle the failures of both government policy and immigrant/urban groups are far more harmful in the end than they are good.  Over time certain slang terms will persist and enter popular usage outside just one section of the population, and then they will be added into official dictionaries like always (unless the Dutch are as controlling as the French about their official dialect).

Will classes in this pidgin language help?  Doubtful.  It may help their grades in primary and secondary school, but how will it help outside the classroom?  They will be in the exact same place with less competitiveness than their peers.  It would be far more helpful to not only teach Dutch but also a proper secondary language, in this case Arabic, and open up service industry positions that require people with bilingual skills in both Dutch and Arabic. 

It's a good idea for people in any country to learn the various slang used in their own country from various regions, but making it official?  I'm not sure about that.

[Tamhansen]

Actually over 75% of the indiginous dutch speaks a second or third language. Being a nation of traders after all. And speaking proper English is a job requirement in most mid to higher level jobs, as well as many jobs requiring either german or french as well. The problem is that many inner city youths just don't bother and thus get left behind.

[Sabre]

It might be time then for Dutch companies to begin expanding into North Africa and the Middle East and creating jobs that require a dual Dutch/Arabic proficiency.  Immigrant youths that just don't bother is a serious problem philosophically for their sub and counter cultures.  An official promotion of learning proper Arabic and proper Dutch in certain cities would go a long way to separating the two languages and proving thrice as useful as promoting just pidgin Dutch-Arabic that only immigrants in the Netherlands and nowhere else will understand.

Whatever the solution, if one exists, it's just not a pretty situation.

[gaggedLouise]

I'm a linguist by trade, and used to teach (not in recent years, but once a teacher, always a teacher), and just the thought of chatspeak in writing makes me twitch uncontrollably. :-X

Agrees with Lilias. Breakdown of language in talk can be itchy, but forms like didja, 4u, Inorite!, he Z yo wazzup? and the like in anything that's meant to be read on its own are something like criminal.

The idea that suburban young people with an immigrant background from any major city now speak a particular, unified dialect which sets them apart from the others around the country, the "natives", had a big vogue in Sweden too some years ago, it's been bandied about by a couple of media pundits, bloggrrs and magazine/paper/radio entrepreneurs with some connections to those suburbs and more or less immigrant backgrounds. But nearly all of those who made a career by hanging on to those concepts are completely fluent in the standard language, they are able to write pages and pages of correct and coherent newspaper prose or blog posts without slipping into the lingo they say is the new dialect. They have never had any problems in that direction, most likely not even in elementary school - so in that way they're nowhere near like the mixing-language kids, often children of half-impoverished or jobless parents, that they claim to represent, those folks who are jumbling Spanish-inspired syntax, Arabic intonation and some Swedish, English and slang words. And sure enough they do not run the "ghettospeak" when talking to their bosses or doing interviews. the ghetto sauce is, well, something that gets sprinkled over the stuff they write after the rest of the dish has been prepared and cooked.

Anyone can pick their own style repertory for sure, but when it is claimed that the new mixed language is, like, the road we gotta follow and that it should be accepted in writing also, in order not to insult the suburban kids, that's a dumb simplification of what happesn in language change. And it is also about exoticizing the population of certain suburban districs, and this isn't really helpful.

I really don't buy the attitude "I am allowed to quarrel with my difficult brother for free, to smack him loudly on the head in public/in print/in a tv discussion, but *you* or anyone else that don't belong to our family (our special set, our particular ethnic, social or sexual class, our club for mutual glamourization and namechecking) can't use the same arguments I used - to him, to or about me, or anybody else of our "family". Yo, that's forbidden, that's exploitative." Excuse me but that's BS - most of the time. There are situations when you have to weigh in that some group has faced oppression and so on but it's not a catch-all thing with any one group to be making this sort of claim and say "no one can speak openly to my peers unless they first buy into their ways, their tastes and their special mindset". It's just a trendy way to mark out a half-private arena in the public space for talking and selling yourself and exempting yourself from talkback and feedback.

[tozhma]

Saussure-ean Linguistic Drift y'all, it happens whether you want it to or not. The biggest factor will be the amount of power and resources held by those who use it. Latin got corrupted into Spanish after all.

[Missy]

Language evolves but there's a difference between kids who just wanna do whateva' they wanna do and people who are willing to work to earn there bit.

Conformity can be bad or it can be good. It's not fair to make the larger part of society learn some barely comprehensible slang terminology just so some niche community can do whateva' they wanna do dog shizzle.

[Beguile's Mistress]

"Just don't bother" is where it hinges for me as far as jobs go.  I won't hire someone with that attitude about anything.  To work for me you need to bother to learn the system and requirements to do the job language aside. 

I do a lot of work by phone and while I'm sympathetic with people who are mono-lingual because I am I am frustrated with those who ignore the fact that we are and English speaking country for all business activities and refuse to accept that and merge with that standard.  Were I to move to a non-English-speaking country I would make every effort no matter how difficult to learn the lanugage of the country where I was living.

Government and business do not exist to cater to the needs of those who do not bother to add to their skill set by learning a necessary language.  "I don't want to." is an extremely childish response to the need to do something that would improve your situation.

[Will]

I don't think all slang can be labeled as linguistic drift.  Just the parts that persist long enough to be incorporated, which is typically not much.  So it makes no sense for a government to spend tons of money chasing down what amounts to more of a "trend" than a "drift."  Whatever sticks, sticks.

[Callie Del Noire]

You know someone in  school told me that the English language had grown more in the last 30 years than in any time since William Shakespeare had run of the Globe Theater.

[phoenyx]

<snip> and just the thought of chatspeak in writing makes me twitch uncontrollably. :-X

Not only do I shudder, but I cringe at the thought of future editors of novels, between chatspeak and spelling. >.<

Me personally, no I wouldn't hire anyone who can't both fill out an app properly, or speaks in slang every other word.

[NotoriusBEN]

the pidgin language speakers need to check their ego and get with the program.
I could say the same for America capitulating to the engrish and providing everything in Spanish, but its too late for us with all the PC BS of the last 20 years. If I had my way, everyone would learn English to work in America.

sorry for sounding like a redneck supremacist, but I've been to towns in Arizona where *everything* is in Spanish. The Safeway, the Kroger, the McDonald's... everything. and these places are heavily populated by Mexicans. I dunno, it was fucking irritating that I was a foreigner in my own country...

I'm too tired to continue on, but there is a reason Ebonics failed as a piece of school curriculum.

[Cyrano Johnson]

Obviously the best path to upward mobility in any society is to be able to speak and write its official language properly.

But I'm more interested in what the underlying dynamic here is. Whenever I see someone claiming that some marginalized, poor and under-educatd local minority "just isn't making an effort to integrate," my ears prick up. Because this claim is usually bull an oversimplification that requires very careful scrutiny. Where such populations have been isolated from the mainstream society, what's happening usually isn't that they're shiftless and lazy; it's that some significant portion of the mainstream society is racist and/or xenophobic, and has systematically and to some extent successfully sought to exclude them from the higher rungs of the labour market and chances for upward mobility.

The story of Turkish or Moroccan immigrants in Europe over the past few decades holds a lot of striking points of similarity to those of Mexican and Latin American immigrants in North America over the same period, or indeed to the story of African-American populations of the late-19th and early-20th century Great Migration who wound up largely stranded in no-hope ghettoes across the States. The pattern tends to be that the host society wants the immigrants as cheap labour but as little else, generally does not want them involved in any of its social networks or wish to expend any more than the bare minimum on educating or otherwise assisting them, finds the resulting alienated populations bizarre, repulsive and criminal and grows to fear and even hate them, hypocritically blames them for a marginalization that is largely forced upon them... and then agonizes over the "immigrant problem." Such populations tend in their turn to develop a certain skepticism about the mainstream society's sincerity and integrity and about whether attempting to integrate is really worthwhile, leading to destructive dynamics of their own: an insular ghetto mentality that may grow to regard attempts to integrate as naive or doomed ("no matter how nice you are or how well you speak, you're still just a [insert appropriate racial slur] to them"), that may thus resign itself to expecting nothing better than the marginalized life one has been relegated to, and that may even tend to reject mainstream education as such as a "betrayal" of the familiar ghetto community.

That dynamic can perpetuate itself for multiple generations. When it's at play, the particular approach being taken to "integration" is more of a side-issue until the bigger underlying forces -- racism or xenophobia on the one side and defensive insularity on the other -- have been directly confronted, called what they are and their effects addressed. Those efforts unfortunately will usually face powerful opposition and be implemented patchily at best... but they're what's necessary.

[Tamhansen]

Obviously the best path to upward mobility in any society is to be able to speak and write its official language properly.

But I'm more interested in what the underlying dynamic here is. Whenever I see someone claiming that some marginalized, poor and under-educatd local minority "just isn't making an effort to integrate," my ears prick up. Because this claim is usually bull an oversimplification that requires very careful scrutiny. Where such populations have been isolated from the mainstream society, what's happening usually isn't that they're shiftless and lazy; it's that some significant portion of the mainstream society is racist and/or xenophobic, and has systematically and to some extent successfully sought to exclude them from the higher rungs of the labour market and chances for upward mobility.

The story of Turkish or Moroccan immigrants in Europe over the past few decades holds a lot of striking points of similarity to those of Mexican and Latin American immigrants in North America over the same period, or indeed to the story of African-American populations of the late-19th and early-20th century Great Migration who wound up largely stranded in no-hope ghettoes across the States. The pattern tends to be that the host society wants the immigrants as cheap labour but as little else, generally does not want them involved in any of its social networks or wish to expend any more than the bare minimum on educating or otherwise assisting them, finds the resulting alienated populations bizarre, repulsive and criminal and grows to fear and even hate them, hypocritically blames them for a marginalization that is largely forced upon them... and then agonizes over the "immigrant problem." Such populations tend in their turn to develop a certain skepticism about the mainstream society's sincerity and integrity and about whether attempting to integrate is really worthwhile, leading to destructive dynamics of their own: an insular ghetto mentality that may grow to regard attempts to integrate as naive or doomed ("no matter how nice you are or how well you speak, you're still just a [insert appropriate racial slur] to them"), that may thus resign itself to expecting nothing better than the marginalized life one has been relegated to, and that may even tend to reject mainstream education as such as a "betrayal" of the familiar ghetto community.

That dynamic can perpetuate itself for multiple generations. When it's at play, the particular approach being taken to "integration" is more of a side-issue until the bigger underlying forces -- racism or xenophobia on the one side and defensive insularity on the other -- have been directly confronted, called what they are and their effects addressed. Those efforts unfortunately will usually face powerful opposition and be implemented patchily at best... but they're what's necessary.

I'm sorry, but that just isn't true for countries like the Netherlands or Belgium. They have from the get go made an effort to offer many ways for immigrant workers and many of those have succeeded. However many migrant workers simply refused. During the seventies eighties and nineties of the last century, language courses were given free of charge in every community centre. They even gave separate ones for men and women, so the Muslims could keep their (in my opinion backward, but that's beside the point) gender separatist ways. But many candidates flat out refused feeling it unimportant to learn Dutch and keeping within their own community in a self imposed segregation.

The mistake the governments made was allowing that. Under the pretense of tolerance this behavior was not only permitted but propagated. Now we are stuck with a whole new generation of migrant children starting with a huge disadvantage. Solutions are offered, and taken by many, but refused by just as many. And these kids are the victim there, but a lot of these kids also refuse any help themselves. But as soon as they get rejected for job openings because of insufficient language skills, they yell discrimination. Guess it's easier to play the victim than to actually try and change yourself.

I volunteer at a youth centre, and when I started working there, teaching computer skills, giving music lessons, and organizing events I was faced with a lot of little groups all speaking their own language amongst each other. Turkish, Somali, Arabic, Papiamento. I instituted one simple rule. In my class only one language is spoken, Dutch. Sure I'd prefer to speak English myself but that wouldn't help the fact.

It worked though, for most of the kids anyway. Many of the kids started using proper Dutch and even helping each other finding the right words. But I also had to endure accusations of being racist, and have had parents threaten me. But seeing the success stories I and my colleagues have achieved makes that worth it. Hell, several of our kids who were thought to end up on factory lines have with the help of our project gone on to college. And two of the kids from my computer classes just launched their own cyber security consultancy. So there is really no excuse for those kids that aren't trying. Except maybe that their parents and community are a bad influence. But then again, I believe quite a few parents should not be allowed children, migrant or not. But that's another discussion.

[phoenyx]

When I lived in California, I had a Brazilian friend that had been living in the States for ten years. He still had an accent, but spoke perfectly understandable English. We had gotten into a discussion about Language and other countries, and how America bends over backwards to accomadate non English speakers. He told me that if a Foreigner were to go to Brazil, they'd have to at the very least know the language, and if it's business related, also read and write it. Otherwise, they had to hire an interpretor themselves, and that the local interpretor would almost always translate things to favor their fellow countryman than the Foreigner.

I honestly feel that when it comes to the older generations (50+) that it should be understandable that they donn't learn a new language, it's hard for them to proccess, unless they have an aptitude for such. But in younger people, there's no excuse. Thier minds are young and agile and quicker to proccess such things, chatspeak is a perfect example. Heck, my own kids know more Spanish then I do, and that comes from both tv and friends. I also found that many of those youngsters who came from Spanish speaking countries, actually know, understand, and speak perfect English a lot of times, they just refuse to speak anything but Spanish. And they tend to get a bit pissy when they discover that a non Hispanic, knows Spanish, because now they can't play "dumb" anymore.

[Veronica]

Using an adequate language level towards your audience makes you a good speaker. For example:

- Using slang/vulgar language in a job application/interview is wrong. The other person expects a polite/common use of the language as a bare minimum.
- Using overly technical language after someone asks you "What time is it please?", is also wrong as the other person expects a more common use of the language.

Saussure-ean Linguistic Drift y'all, it happens whether you want it to or not. The biggest factor will be the amount of power and resources held by those who use it. Latin got corrupted into Spanish after all.

Latin evolved into Spanish, Italian, French, Portuguese, Sardinian, Romanian, etc...

"Corrupted" might be a bit too offensive.

[Cyrano Johnson]

I'm sorry, but that just isn't true for countries like the Netherlands or Belgium. They have from the get go made an effort to offer many ways for immigrant workers and many of those have succeeded. However many migrant workers simply refused. During the seventies eighties and nineties of the last century, language courses were given free of charge in every community centre. They even gave separate ones for men and women, so the Muslims could keep their (in my opinion backward, but that's beside the point) gender separatist ways. But many candidates flat out refused feeling it unimportant to learn Dutch and keeping within their own community in a self imposed segregation.

My short summary above is of course painted in broad strokes. The parallels between all these histories don't amount to every situation being absolutely the same: the government culture in the Netherlands surely felt at least obliged to put up the appearance of making an effort at "integration", something that wasn't required or even dreamt of in say America of the 1900s. And there are always finer-grained interactions in the picture: charities, self-improvement intiatives, stand-out individuals and so on.

Nevertheless the striking similarities remain -- patterns of rhetoric and interaction which are instantly recognizable from the long history of xenophobia and anti-immigrant panics on my continent -- and again, make me wary of accepting claims like the above at face value. One of the things that makes it possible to do more than just guess blindly at whether those similarities are relevant is that the modern world features lots of scholars studying these phenomena and putting their results online, so for example one can find a summarized study like this one outlining the complex of factors influencing integration in the Netherlands and noting that "[there] is a great deal of research demonstrating the negative consequences of racial intolerance and prejudice in the Dutch labour market."

I tend to trust that kind of scholarship more than just raw anecdote, because people are of course as a rule unwilling to believe their own societies are racist -- or at least unwilling to openly admit it in an era where racism is known to be a black mark on a person's character -- and because members of a mainstream society in this situation don't necessarily know that much about the actual lives of the immigrants whose "self-imposed segregation" they speak of, or the kinds of discrimination they may or may not have encountered. Those kinds of discrimination and their effects are largely invisible to someone who hasn't undergone it themselves.

[Beguile's Mistress]

There are people who will always resist any sort of integration and argue about the need for it.  There have been conquering nations who have tried to eradicate and indigenous languate and that didn't work either.  International business is conducted in English for the most part, at least all the international business I have experienced.  German was once and still might be the language of science.  Some literary works lose much when translated out of their original language so a study of something like French Literature would require a near immersion in the French language.

Slang is constantly being integrated into the English language and I assume into other languages as well but the root doesn't change.  English remains English. 

Unless you want to limit yourself you need to be conversant in the main language of a country.  Bosses don't have the time or desire to give orders and directions in more than one language.  Time is money and if you cost money rather thank are a source of revenue for a company they usually don't want you.

[Tamhansen]

My short summary above is of course painted in broad strokes. The parallels between all these histories don't amount to every situation being absolutely the same: the government culture in the Netherlands surely felt at least obliged to put up the appearance of making an effort at "integration", something that wasn't required or even dreamt of in say America of the 1900s. And there are always finer-grained interactions in the picture: charities, self-improvement intiatives, stand-out individuals and so on.

Nevertheless the striking similarities remain -- patterns of rhetoric and interaction which are instantly recognizable from the long history of xenophobia and anti-immigrant panics on my continent -- and again, make me wary of accepting claims like the above at face value. One of the things that makes it possible to do more than just guess blindly at whether those similarities are relevant is that the modern world features lots of scholars studying these phenomena and putting their results online, so for example one can find a summarized study like this one outlining the complex of factors influencing integration in the Netherlands and noting that "[there] is a great deal of research demonstrating the negative consequences of racial intolerance and prejudice in the Dutch labour market."

I tend to trust that kind of scholarship more than just raw anecdote, because people are of course as a rule unwilling to believe their own societies are racist -- or at least unwilling to openly admit it in an era where racism is known to be a black mark on a person's character -- and because members of a mainstream society in this situation don't necessarily know that much about the actual lives of the immigrants whose "self-imposed segregation" they speak of, or the kinds of discrimination they may or may not have encountered. Those kinds of discrimination and their effects are largely invisible to someone who hasn't undergone it themselves.

Lol. Being an actual immigrant myself. (granted from another western nation across the atlantic) living in a neighbourhood containing mostly non western immigrants I know a great deal about the lives of immigrants in the Netherlands. And thus I can easily make the distinction that someone who based their opinions solely on research done by organisations that need the problem to exist to have right of existence isn't exactly objective.

My method of research: i volunteer in an inner city youth center 20 hours a week, and thus see for myself that there are many people who indeed choose, not being forced, but choose to segregate themselves from the main society, so that is how I make those claims. I'm in these peoples lives both in my volunteer work as my home situation.

Also if you're trying to accuse me of racism you're barking up the wrong tree, I'm not racist I'm an equal opportuinity hater, I don't like anyone. :P

Do I disagree that the last decade and a half there has been a growing sentiment of mostly unfounded aversion towards non western cultures?  No I do not, I agree, and spend quite a bit of my time proving it unfounded and stopping the racism.

The point is you are purposefully subverting my position to push your own viewpoint. I never said there was no discrimination. there is, and that sucks. However there is a difference between people actually trying, and getting refused, and people not doing fuck all to improve themselves, and then shout discrimination at not getting the high paying jobs. And I actually see this happen in my daily life, and i see success stories as well.

[Tamhansen]

There are people who will always resist any sort of integration and argue about the need for it.  There have been conquering nations who have tried to eradicate and indigenous languate and that didn't work either.  International business is conducted in English for the most part, at least all the international business I have experienced.  German was once and still might be the language of science.  Some literary works lose much when translated out of their original language so a study of something like French Literature would require a near immersion in the French language.

Slang is constantly being integrated into the English language and I assume into other languages as well but the root doesn't change.  English remains English. 

Unless you want to limit yourself you need to be conversant in the main language of a country.  Bosses don't have the time or desire to give orders and directions in more than one language.  Time is money and if you cost money rather thank are a source of revenue for a company they usually don't want you.

+1

[Cyrano Johnson]

The point is you are purposefully subverting my position to push your own viewpoint.

I am bringing up some context that seems relevant to me. Neither of my posts are particularly intended as attacks on or criticisms of you personally (although on the other hand when someone instantly tries to derail the conversation into furious personal affront and defensiveness any time the word "racism" is mentioned, that too is a recognizable behaviour to me... and another striking parallel). You seem aware at some level that being an immigrant from another Western country isn't quite the same thing as being a non-Western immigrant, but as to what you actually know or don't know about the lives of non-Western immigrants as a result, that's something I leave to you to work out.

research done by organisations that need the problem to exist to have right of existence isn't exactly objective.

And another parallel. Researchers supposedly making up problems they "need to exist" are a common anecdotal device often used to deny problems uncovered by research, but I'm not inclined to accept this gambit at face value either. I'm actually surprised that this particular myth is so persistent among people who must surely know that society offers far more easy and lucrative avenues for the fraudster than the endless work of chasing after grant money.

However there is a difference between people actually trying, and getting refused, and people not doing fuck all to improve themselves, and then shout discrimination at not getting the high paying jobs. And I actually see this happen in my daily life

Yes, I'm sure you think you do. Maybe you're right, maybe not. I'm just pointing out that the dynamic of "people not doing fuck all to improve themselves" is often a lot more complicated than people like to think. Again, all due respect to your anecdotes, I'm not willing to accept them as an absolute authority on this. It's nothing personal, I'd say the same to anyone.

[Caehlim]

Was unsure about the title, but the question i want to set before you is about whether or not slang should be accepted as part of the official language?

All language is slang. Official languages are just the particularly dialectical variation employed by those with a lot of money and those who want to get on their good side. It wasn't until fairly recently in history that academics had the unmitigated arrogance to state that people weren't speaking their own language properly.

How do you feel about that?

Well, the employers presumably want to hire someone and the employee presumably wants to get hired. Maybe they'll both have to make some effort to get that to happen, but it can't be a one-sided expectation. If I had to learn an entirely new language to get a job, then I would be willing to do that but it'd have to be a pretty good job. Likewise if I were an employer and I want to hire the very best expert in the world, but they speak a different language, then I'd make the effort to adjust whether that's hiring translators or whatever but I wouldn't do that for just any old employee.

Would you accept an application written in msnspeek if you were an employer.

Does the job they're applying for require the ability to write in formal english/dutch/whatever? If so, then obviously their application would show that they are unsuitable. Otherwise, I don't see that it would be hugely relevant. Maybe an extra effort from the HR deparment in organizing their employment records but that'd be about all.

If people are being discriminated against because of stereotypes of people who speak that language, then that's terrible and I think it needs to be addressed. If they're being selected against because language skill and usage is an aspect of the position then that's just rather common sense.

Do you think classes taught in street slang would be a good idea?

If anyone is particularly interested in learning that language, then yes it would be a good idea for them to have that available. However, I'm sure if there are people interested who can afford those classes, then I'm sure they will already exist or will require little more than a craigslist ad to get it happening.

Edit: Edited this post to remove a grammatical error. Don't think I'm missing the irony on that one. :D

[Tamhansen]

Does the job they're applying for require the ability to write in formal english/dutch/whatever? If so, then obviously their application would show that they are unsuitable. Otherwise, I don't see that it would be hugely relevant. Maybe an extra effort from the HR deparment in organizing their employment records but that'd be about all.

If people are being discriminated against because of stereotypes of people who speak that language, then that's terrible and I think it needs to be addressed. If they're being selected against because language skill and usage is an aspect of the position then that's just rather common sense.

No matter what kind of job it is. Why the hell would an employer hire someone who can't even bother to speak the proper language? Apparently that person is unmotivated. There are certain basic skills an employer is right to expect.

[Serephino]

Learning to speak proper (insert language here) is important no matter where you live if you don't want to end up at a crappy job.  Here in the US we are taught proper English, and are expected to use it in higher education and trying to get jobs.  My boyfriend has gotten points taken off of school papers because of grammar mistakes.

It is possible for immigrants to learn the language of where they live.  One of my friends is Hispanic, and his great grandmother who came from Mexico learned at least some English.  His grandmother speaks both Spanish and English.  She speaks Spanish at home, but found it easier to survive in the world by learning English.  His grandfather was from Cuba, and learned enough English to get by.  That means my friend and his mother also speak both.  As a police officer dealing with the public, he's found being able to speak Spanish helpful, except when he gets woken up at 3am to translate.

[Caehlim]

No matter what kind of job it is. Why the hell would an employer hire someone who can't even bother to speak the proper language? Apparently that person is unmotivated. There are certain basic skills an employer is right to expect.

So, seasonal labourers who pick grapes for a day need to learn the official language of that nation-state in order to be "motivated" and worthy of hiring? I'm not sure that your stance is very practical.

[Callie Del Noire]

So, seasonal labourers who pick grapes for a day need to learn the official language of that nation-state in order to be "motivated" and worthy of hiring? I'm not sure that your stance is very practical.

I'm mixed on offical language.. I understand the need to offer options for assisting those who don't speak english.. BUT there is a need for English in some spots as the sole means of communication. Nothing was more annoying in a workspace than half the staff speaking a language the other side doesn't speak (the case I'm using is the Filipino sailors talking Tagalog in the workspace. Nothing is more fun than coming in to find your ONLY other qualified Support Equipment operator told the supervisor that I said he could go home for the day.. in FRONT of me in language that I don't speak. Or being the only person in the disbursing office speaking English when I come in for a pay issue)

In some cases, English is needed as the only language but we need to be able to help folks who can't speak it well or at all.

[Tamhansen]

Depends. If the employer wishes not to hire them because they do not speak the language it should be their right yes. If the employer does not care, that's the employer's choice. My point is that if you do not bother to learn the language you should not be surprised to be left by the roadside.

P.s. That was most likely the worst attempt at reductio ad absurdum I've ever seen.

[Callie Del Noire]

Depends. If the employer wishes not to hire them because they do not speak the language it should be their right yes. If the employer does not care, that's the employer's choice. My point is that if you do not bother to learn the language you should not be surprised to be left by the roadside.

P.s. That was most likely the worst attempt at reductio ad absurdum I've ever seen.

I wasn't trying to state one or the other.. just admitting.. I'm conflicted. And I am. I've been on the wrong side of the 'don't speak the language' experience. (both in service and in Ireland)

It ain't fun being excluded.

[TaintedAndDelish]

While its common to use light slang that's regionally accepted while speaking, ( in NYC, "Gonna instead of "going to" ) one needs to know how to write properly and they need to know when its not OK to use such shortcuts and locally accepted slang. If someone sent me an email at work that had even a little local slang, I would question their judgment and intelligence. There's a good chanced that I would not take them seriously and would quite likely forward that email to fellow employees for a good laugh. Sounds harsh? It is, but that that's the kind of impression slang can make.

In the US, some schools have elected to teach "ebonics" which is basically slang spoken in some poor areas. I believe the idea was to build up the student's self esteem by validating his 'local dialect'  and to help make a distinction between that and what they call "Standard English."

[Caehlim]

P.s. That was most likely the worst attempt at reductio ad absurdum I've ever seen.

You do realize that named logical fallacies aren't just magic words that you chant to make your opponents arguments vanish like David Copperfield's scantily clad assistant. Right? You actually have to demonstrate that the person is employing said logical fallacy and how in doing so their argument is rendered invalid.

Perhaps you'd care to explain why this conversation...

Caehlim: Depends on the job.
Katataban: No matter what kind of job it is.
Caehlim: Even seasonal-labour such as grape-picking?

Is the worst reductio ad absurdum you've ever seen and how we might all be so lucky as to never encounter any RAAs worse than it?

Or is there perhaps some other element to the conversation that I missed in my paraphrasing to which you are referring?

[Oniya]

Even with something as 'simple' as fruit picking, there is a certain amount of communication that has to go on between employer and employee.  (What do you look for in a ripe product?  Are there situations where the product should be removed and discarded instead of picked and packed?)  Being able to do so without resorting to charades is going to be preferred by the employer, and therefore it is likely that employees with that skill are going to be given more opportunity.

[Cyrano Johnson]

Things like unskilled labour and trade actually have a long history of getting by just fine without common languages, or of motivating the creation of pidgins and yes, slangs. I think Caehlim is right that this isn't a compelling objection.

[Love And Submission]

Yes how dare people speak differently then you. They are clearly lazy and unwilling to work because they
can't afford to take classes or buy a tutor since no one will hire them.\How awful non-conformity is.

It's like homosexuals  , Why can't they just learn to be straight at work? It makes me uncomfortable
and shows they're unwilling to fit in!

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide

Sarcasm.

[TheGlyphstone]

Yes how dare people speak differently then you. They are clearly lazy and unwilling to work because they
can't afford to take classes or buy a tutor since no one will hire them.\How awful non-conformity is.

It's like homosexuals  , Why can't they just learn to be straight at work? It makes me uncomfortable
and shows they're unwilling to fit in!

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide

Sarcasm.

Unless you're working at a brothel, that actually is reducto ad absurdum.

[Callie Del Noire]

Back to the original post.. (and I apologize for my derailing efforts in this)

I figure that it's a question of how much give a much larger culture can give to any subculture that won't give any ground in accommodation. Have to balance the needs of the smaller group against how much letting them isolate themselves might hurt them over all.

Takes someone more skilled than me to make that call.

[Tamhansen]

Yes how dare people speak differently then you. They are clearly lazy and unwilling to work because they
can't afford to take classes or buy a tutor since no one will hire them.\How awful non-conformity is.

It's like homosexuals  , Why can't they just learn to be straight at work? It makes me uncomfortable
and shows they're unwilling to fit in!

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide

Sarcasm.

Again using completely irrelevant points in an attempt to derail the point.

The people This post was about are people born in the country, who have access to a free education system AND on top of that are given access to special courses outside school geared especially to them. Clearly if they can't speak the language they are simply not making an effort.

[Silk]

Things like unskilled labour and trade actually have a long history of getting by just fine without common languages, or of motivating the creation of pidgins and yes, slangs. I think Caehlim is right that this isn't a compelling objection.

Except were living in the era of safety legislation and protocols, where not only do you have to know the fire exit but you must also understand the cucumstances of fire, and the assembly point.

[Cyrano Johnson]

Except were living in the era of safety legislation and protocols, where not only do you have to know the fire exit but you must also understand the cucumstances of fire, and the assembly point.

Um no, most of the unskilled labour jobs that immigrants are brought in / hired for do not in fact have sophisticated safety protocols. (Of course this does indicate a problematically exploitative environment and also that learning the native language can get you access to safer jobs... provided the native populace is willing to hire you, which is where racism often becomes a factor.)

[Callie Del Noire]

Um no, most of the unskilled labour jobs that immigrants are brought in / hired for do not in fact have sophisticated safety protocols. (Of course this does indicate a problematically exploitative environment and also that learning the native language can get you access to safer jobs... provided the native populace is willing to hire you, which is where racism often becomes a factor.)

That's not always true. You get a lot of immigrant workers in more machine intensive industries, for example things like meat packing industry which has a very HIGH amount of automation and limb hazards. As well as what little textile industry that remains in the country. People who hire the immigrants (legal or otherwise) don't always care for high safety standards or informing their staff.

Not being able to speak the local language can get you hurt. Safety information isnt' always translated and don't think 'low paying jobs' means 'hazard free' in the way of machinery or technical skills.

[Cyrano Johnson]

That's not always true. You get a lot of immigrant workers in more machine intensive industries. . . People who hire the immigrants (legal or otherwise) don't always care for high safety standards or informing their staff.

We are not disagreeing. I said immigrants are often hired into workplaces that don't have sophisticated safety protocols, not that these were necessarily low-risk workplaces.

[Lux12]

They're forced to take the jobs so many born citizens refuse to take and then people bash them for it.

[Callie Del Noire]

They're forced to take the jobs so many born citizens refuse to take and then people bash them for it.

They aren't forced.. if anything I'd say they are taken advantage of. And typically when the companies get caught..they lose while the companies get off with a slap on the wrist.

[Oniya]

Out of curiosity, is there a reason given for why these people don't wish to learn the local language?  I saw up-thread that classes are apparently offered, but people don't take advantage of them.  Is it willful?  Is it a situation where they can't read the notices telling them about the classes - which is apparently a problem with the Nepalese in my area? (Or worse:  'Illiterate?  Call for free assistance!')

[Caehlim]

sorry for sounding like a redneck supremacist, but I've been to towns in Arizona where *everything* is in Spanish. The Safeway, the Kroger, the McDonald's... everything. and these places are heavily populated by Mexicans. I dunno, it was fucking irritating that I was a foreigner in my own country...

You mean towns like Tucson or Tubac... that were founded by Spain?

Imagine how the Mexicans living there felt in 1847, I think they may have felt a little bit more than fucking irritated at how they were treated in their own country.

And next time you feel 'like a foreigner in your own country', I invite you to talk to a native american. The 1.54% of the population in Arizona who speak Navajo, probably have a bit more right to be annoyed than you do.

[Caehlim]

The people This post was about are people born in the country, who have access to a free education system AND on top of that are given access to special courses outside school geared especially to them.

No disagreement here with any of that. I've no doubt that there are a lot of resources available, most likely available at free or very low cost. In my country we have similar programs available and the same thing happens here to some extent.

Clearly if they can't speak the language they are simply not making an effort.

Quite possibly true. So the question is, why not?

Certainly some of the people may be simply lazy but with the numbers of people you're talking about, it seems unlikely that that is the explanation for everyone. Particularly when apparently speaking formal dutch is so advantageous.

So why, when they are given access to these resources, is it not working? That is the question you should be asking and I think the answers that you find will be much more interesting and relevant to solving the problem.

[Oniya]

So why, when they are given access to these resources, is it not working? That is the question you should be asking and I think the answers that you find will be much more interesting and relevant to solving the problem.

That's pretty much the question I just asked.

[Caehlim]

That's pretty much the question I just asked.

Ah, so I see.

It's a good question.

I do have a thought as to the answer, but I can't remember my source and didn't really want to try to prove a point when I'm unable to cite any evidence. But I can still bring it up for discussion.

I was reading (somewhere) that in America fewer black people will take up higher learning in the form of college degrees because they perceive that it won't benefit them. The theory goes that if persecution will stop them from getting the job, even if they do get the degree, then why bother wasting a lot of time on doing it. (and unfortunately there is actual evidence showing that persecution does still stop minorities getting certain jobs despite America's reforms and efforts on this point).

I don't really know the situation in Rotterdam, but I expect a similar process might be occurring. Why learn formal dutch if it doesn't actually offer you a benefit? Is your time better spent learning dutch for a job that you'll get turned down for eventually anyway? Or is it better spent getting a job at the local corner-store selling hotdogs to other streetspeak speakers?

(I have a vague memory that this may have been in a book called 'The undercover economist', or possibly a different book called 'Filthy lucre' but I'm not 100% certain that it's even one of those two).

[Oniya]

College is expensive - often prohibitively so, as well as time consuming, and college education is generally more than is necessary to exist from day to day.  Literacy classes, as I understand here in the states, are offered at low or no cost, frequently on a flexible schedule that doesn't impact the work schedule.

If one of the reasons that they aren't getting the job is because they can't speak the language, it only makes sense that learning the language would eliminate that particular hurdle.  Even if that particular employer is discriminating against them, knowing the language would help in so many other dealings on a day-to-day basis.

[Caehlim]

College is expensive - often prohibitively so, as well as time consuming, and college education is generally more than is necessary to exist from day to day.  Literacy classes, as I understand here in the states, are offered at low or no cost, frequently on a flexible schedule that doesn't impact the work schedule.

That's true, although remember that I'm not talking about its actual cost so much as its perceived cost/benefit analysis and we have to include psychological factors here. What about the cost to your self-identity, pride and community spirit? What about being perceived as a sell-out by your friends?

Also if your language skills force you into a lower paying job, you may be working double-shifts to make enough money making it harder to attend these classes. You may know friends who took one of those classes and still can't find a job. You may feel discouraged by a lot of your own negative experiences with the job market and not want to continue trying.

I could speculate all day, but ultimately I think the people in government in Rotterdam will need to consult with some qualified sociologists who can study the problem locally and see exactly where the breakdown is happening.

If one of the reasons that they aren't getting the job is because they can't speak the language, it only makes sense that learning the language would eliminate that particular hurdle.

Then these people are either very stupid and lazy, or know something we don't because it seems en masse they are refusing an apparently perfect solution to their problem.

Personally, I don't suspect that it's stupidity or laziness (well, not for everyone. Maybe for some of the people that's the problem but that's harder to fix).

Even if that particular employer is discriminating against them, knowing the language would help in so many other dealings on a day-to-day basis.

I don't think that's entirely true and that's perhaps part of the problem. If they are living in small isolated and insular communities with their own jobs, media, radio stations and dating circuits, they may go entire days without speaking formal dutch. Their own pidgin language sounds close enough to dutch that they can probably manage those conversations already with probably just some minor frustrations and misunderstandings.

The self-supporting community is probably very helpful on a day to day basis, but may discourage looking outside the community in the long-run.

[Cyrano Johnson]

Then these people are either very stupid and lazy, or know something we don't because it seems en masse they are refusing an apparently perfect solution to their problem.

Quite. It could even be that being one of the working poor is time-consuming and does not leave infinite amounts of free time for taking language courses. But I'm just spitballing here; obviously the real and credible authorities should be white people speculating about the lives of nonwhite immigrants at second hand.

[Funguy81]

Just putting in my two cents. but your an "outsider"  trying to open a business within that local community it would be best that you speak the language of the local populace. Put up signs of the language the local population can read and understand so you can serve them better. That to me is common sense that you have to learn the culture and the language of that area. I live in a hispanic heavy area in Orlando, and there is a supermarket that offers hispanic ethnic foods, and their signs are in both english and spanish. That is reaching out to the people that your trying to serve. Its not a requirement, but if you want a successful business in that area its a service that should to be provided.

Now on the other hand unless you plan to live the rest of your life in that small area of the world, its common sense you need to learn the official language of the country. Employers want to know if they hire someone, that person can communicate with them without trouble, or understand and complete the forms the company utilizes. Its a skill just like any other, and if the potential employee does not have it he will not be hired.

Yes, that even includes a job like being a janitor. When I was in high school, the janitor in charge of the cleaning crew could not read or write, yet he was the one that filled out the forms to order in cleaning supplies every week. He did this by memorizing the "symbols" for each item, and wrote them down on the requisition forms.  I don't know how he learned it, but he gone by with it for years. When the school board upgraded the requisition forms to a new format, he could not figure it out. I can't remember if the school fired him or just demoted him, but I do know that he was replaced by someone who could read and write.

[sirtree]

I feel like if I tried to write a application in middle English I would fail to get said job it is simply a fact. Or if I send in a letter in chat speck well that would not go over well. When you do business or work you dress up in cloth that suits you job consider language to follow the same idea. Writing for fun or day to day use is a different matter all together.
(typed in iPad so forgive lack of fancy comma pauses)