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Fifty Shades of Gray

Started by deadmanshand, February 12, 2015, 11:44:04 AM

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deadmanshand

I don't normally do things like this but I have had so many women shove this book in my face and talk about how dreamy stalker-abuser Christian Gray is that I am forced to. The earliest reviews of the movie are in and critics consensus is - drum roll - that is the Worst Movie They Have Ever Seen! God that feels good to type! Now I know that the movie will make money based off of the legions of people who can't differentiate between abuse and love and think that BDSM means owning another person but it's something at least.

Inkidu

I get the distinct feeling that the book is not popular here on E for a myriad of reasons, ranging from the quality of the prose, the abusive relationship, and the misrepresentation of the BDSM and or S&M community.

Though sometimes preachin' to the choir can be cathartic and enjoyable. :3
If you're searching the lines for a point, well you've probably missed it; there was never anything there in the first place.

deadmanshand

Oh I figured it would not be popular here. The book is despised by people with an actual interest or active participation in the lifestyle.

Lilias

We had a first round of fun (complete with priceless links) here.

Let Round 2 begin! *dingdingding*
To go in the dark with a light is to know the light.
To know the dark, go dark. Go without sight,
and find that the dark, too, blooms and sings,
and is traveled by dark feet and dark wings.
~Wendell Berry

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gaggedLouise

I just heard it dubbed a "raunchy movie" by an anchor on BBC News (who likely had not seen it)...  ;)

I figure most people in the BDSM community feel it misrepresents and distorts what their lifestyle and their desires are about; just about everyone I have talked to personally or read online who is "in the scene" keep making those points.

Good girl but bad  -- Proud sister of the amazing, blackberry-sweet Violet Girl

Sometimes bound and cuntrolled, sometimes free and easy 

"I'm a pretty good cook, I'm sitting on my groceries.
Come up to my kitchen, I'll show you my best recipes"

la dame en noir

Note: 50 Shades of Grey was originally a Twilight Fanfiction
Now its a book for housewives that need unoriginal fantasies.

Not something to get irritated at.
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Inkidu

Quote from: la dame en noir on February 12, 2015, 12:03:02 PM
Note: 50 Shades of Grey was originally a Twilight Fanfiction
Now its a book for housewives that need unoriginal fantasies.

Not something to get irritated at.
As someone whose proximity to the lifestyle of BDSM and or S&M results in here on E I'm more irritated that it has done so well in the market. :P

Yes, that basically puts the bar firmly in the mud so anyone can just sail right over it with whatever they want to publish, but still... is that a world worth writing for? XD
If you're searching the lines for a point, well you've probably missed it; there was never anything there in the first place.

deadmanshand

Quote from: la dame en noir on February 12, 2015, 12:03:02 PM
Note: 50 Shades of Grey was originally a Twilight Fanfiction
Now its a book for housewives that need unoriginal fantasies.

Not something to get irritated at.

It is absolutely something to get irritated at when you constantly have people shoving it in your face and telling you how amazing it is. I work next to a book store and most of the customers know I'm a heavy reader. People love to tell me about what they're reading and most days that's awesome. But the 50 Shades of Gray fans are fucking irritating. They won't take an answer of "It's not really my style". They want to know why you don't absolutely fucking love it and why you don't think Christian Gray isn't the perfect man - and they really hate the old "I used to help out at a woman's shelter" reason for hating him either.

My greatest question is why they would assume the straight male with neither an inclination for "romance" novels nor BDSM would find Christian Gray to be the perfect anything. That seems like odd.

Lux12

As far as the book is concerned, tell me when there's a better written femdom version that doesn't perpetuate myths. The only thing I like that came of this is the ominous re-recording of Crazy In Love. Seriously, it's as if Beyonce started listening to industrial music somewhere along the way and the results are damned awesome.

Thesunmaid

Like twilight...which apprently I am supposed to be all over because I own a uterus and there's nothing creepy about a woman in her 30's or 40's lusting after a 17 year old boy...I was told"Try reading 50 shades of grey! Its sooooooooooo gooooood."

This was told to me by someone who I went to high school with and I think to myself...why the hell did I listen when they said I should read anything? The person was my high school best freind but...looking back she just sort of never left high school behind..

But i was like fine...I should not hate a book or movie with out trying to read or watch it....the first twilight movie..I watched with my freind mike and we made fun of it all the way through and that was about the only way I was able to stomach it...i said ok...maybe the books...they have more detail and tend to be better than the movies..Oh how wrong I was..

Now with 50 shades of grey..I tried to read the first book...I got about half way through before I realized wow...I have read std pamphlets better written than this..as well as I wanted to yell at it"YOU ARE FUCKING DOING IT WRONG!"

But also I have rp's that I have "done it wrong." purposely because while in real time my partner and I did it right(talked about limits,made sure we were both comfortable and knew that it would stop at any time one of us felt weird.)they wanted to RP a 50 shades sort of setting at times. So all in all I would rate this book series even though I could not get through even the first book as harmless smut so long as people are not taking it as the how to guide of BDSM(and yes I know there are people out there that will but they are adults and have the right to be a moron and not bother researching anything) and its sort of up there with the bodice ripper romance novels with Fabio on the cover.

Since I would not make it through even one book I think i will stick to netflix for horribifuckas movies like Nazis at the center of the earth and Mongolian death worm.(yes these are actually movies found in the horror and thriller section) At least that gives me something other than bad movies for the 7 bucks i would pay and I don't have to leave my house and go into the horrible season that is winter.

My personal guilty pleasure for smut with plot is Laurell K Hamilton's Anita Blake series. There is werewolves and vampires and fairies oh my!
Some mornings its just not worth chewing through the leather straps.
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RedPhoenix

Quote from: la dame en noir on February 12, 2015, 12:03:02 PM
Note: 50 Shades of Grey was originally a Twilight Fanfiction
Now its a book for housewives that need unoriginal fantasies.

Not something to get irritated at.

Bad Twilight fanfiction about generic schlubs can get you millions and a movie deal.

Good writing with compelling characters may earn enough to live on it if you're really lucky.

I'm irritated.
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la dame en noir

Its bad smut, probably something I would've written when I was 13. I am also someone who has been very active in the kink community and has seen abuse from people that don't understand it. I have also seen master/slave relationships of this caliber as well. I don't let it effect me because it is just a book, it does not reflect the BDSM relationships I've been in and certainly doesn't speak for a majority of very beautiful ones.

Its fanfiction for horny women that know nothing and honestly when I read the book - I was in love with Christian despite him being twisted. I mean we're on a roleplaying site where people will play out their most horrific fantasies. Sure their might be abuse, but I honestly don't get the hate. Do not see the movie if you're against it, its not going to do that well in the box office anyway lol.

I only plan on seeing it because I'm bored and don't do much else.
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Iniquitous

Bow to the Queen; I'm the Alpha, the Omega, everything in between.


Nico

What can we expect of a plot that could have been written by a ten year old? (not the theme per se, but the shabby dialogue, the almost complete lack of plot, etc.)

deadmanshand

Quote from: la dame en noir on February 12, 2015, 12:50:40 PM
Its bad smut, probably something I would've written when I was 13. I am also someone who has been very active in the kink community and has seen abuse from people that don't understand it. I have also seen master/slave relationships of this caliber as well. I don't let it effect me because it is just a book, it does not reflect the BDSM relationships I've been in and certainly doesn't speak for a majority of very beautiful ones.

Its fanfiction for horny women that know nothing and honestly when I read the book - I was in love with Christian despite him being twisted. I mean we're on a roleplaying site where people will play out their most horrific fantasies. Sure their might be abuse, but I honestly don't get the hate. Do not see the movie if you're against it, its not going to do that well in the box office anyway lol.

I only plan on seeing it because I'm bored and don't do much else.

I think you misunderstand the nature of the hatred. It's not that it's abuse. It's abuse labeled as love and portrayed romantically. Any abuse stories here are openly that. They don't pretend to be anything else. They are also stories on a private site in a community that by and large know the difference between fiction & reality. These books/movies are mainstream public romanticizations of abuse and manipulation. It's worlds of difference.

la dame en noir

And yet movies that are supposed to be historical fiction like 300 depicts rape in a glorious fashion. This is a book written by a woman who was writing out her desires. And it just so happens that a lot of other women also enjoyed these desires and bought of her books. The media took attention to it and now its mainstream and in the movie scene. I highly doubt the woman had any prior knowledge to BDSM and was just doing what she wanted in her sexual life. There are lots of things people won't admit to liking and find that a few people in the community are blowing it out of proportion because it doesn't represent what they know.

But how do we know exactly what a good BDSM relationship is? Maybe the author wanted a girl that was stupid in certain ways and made her vulnerable while there was a stereotypical alpha male with problems. When I read this book, I don't take it seriously...I know its fantasy....i know its fiction and knowing that its based off another girls Twilight Fanfiction of an Alternate Universe...it makes me even goofier.

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Inkidu

Audiences get the books they deserve I suppose.
If you're searching the lines for a point, well you've probably missed it; there was never anything there in the first place.

SinXAzgard21

Quote from: la dame en noir on February 12, 2015, 02:21:21 PM
And yet movies that are supposed to be historical fiction like 300 depicts rape in a glorious fashion. This is a book written by a woman who was writing out her desires. And it just so happens that a lot of other women also enjoyed these desires and bought of her books. The media took attention to it and now its mainstream and in the movie scene. I highly doubt the woman had any prior knowledge to BDSM and was just doing what she wanted in her sexual life. There are lots of things people won't admit to liking and find that a few people in the community are blowing it out of proportion because it doesn't represent what they know.

But how do we know exactly what a good BDSM relationship is? Maybe the author wanted a girl that was stupid in certain ways and made her vulnerable while there was a stereotypical alpha male with problems. When I read this book, I don't take it seriously...I know its fantasy....i know its fiction and knowing that its based off another girls Twilight Fanfiction of an Alternate Universe...it makes me even goofier.



My marriage is nearly 100% BDSM based.  This garbage she wrote is a horrible attempt to portray what an actual relationship based on BDSM is.  Not to mention she did little to no research on what the actual lifestyle is.
If you know me personally, you know how to contact me.

la dame en noir

Once again this is a middle aged woman who wrote this originally as twilight fan fiction and then changed it. A publishing house published it - you can't get mad at her. A lot of people write shit they don't know anything about, but a lot of people don't say anything about it either.

But shows like Spartacus and GoT's are okay and movies like 300 are acceptable. No one says shit, but the moment this comes out on the scene all hell breaks loose.

I'm a little more liberal when it comes to stuff like this and I know many of you might think I'm advocating abuse, but i'm not. I just see it for what it really is. I had to get out of a mentally abusive BDSM relationship when I was 20. I have seen relationships that I thought were abusive, but i knew better than to think thats what it truly was.

But can I point out people have kinks like raceplay and nazi uniform fetishes? Does this represent BDSM and Kink as a whole? No - but no one is telling them otherwise.
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deadmanshand

@la dame en noir - There are so many things wrong with what you said... I'm just gonna let it go. I didn't start this thread to argue with anyone.

la dame en noir

I'm not arguing and if there is something wrong with what I said than point it out. I'm simply giving my opinion on this whole charade. We have roleplays where people desire the non-consent turning into consent or the Stockholm syndrome or abuse turning into love. These are just fantasies, things that society would find immoral.

But like I said - I knew I would look like the devil's advocate.
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deadmanshand

Your entire argument is flawed. From beginning to end. And you are arguing. Playing Devil's Advocate is arguing. I don't feel like going through with the debate with another person who enjoys the series. If you like it go like it. Have fun. But don't pretend we don't have valid reasons for hating it and don't pretend that what people may do on here in any way limits there ability to criticize mainstream depictations of things.

That is my last reply to you on the topic. I don't feel like really arguing this.

la dame en noir

It really isn't though. I'm just letting people know that it's nothing to lose sleep over. I never said enjoyed the series, btw. I just don't think you understand where I'm coming from and what i'm getting at. But of course if someone disagrees, that makes them wrong on all accounts - am i right?

Anyways thank you for this thread and I hope you enjoy the rest of your day.
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Inkidu

Quote from: la dame en noir on February 12, 2015, 03:06:50 PM
It really isn't though. I'm just letting people know that it's nothing to lose sleep over. I never said enjoyed the series, btw. I just don't think you understand where I'm coming from and what i'm getting at. But of course if someone disagrees, that makes them wrong on all accounts - am i right?

Anyways thank you for this thread and I hope you enjoy the rest of your day.
The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was making people think he didn't exist. :P

You can't really argue what you're arguing while simultaneously telling people what they should and shouldn't get upset over.

If you're searching the lines for a point, well you've probably missed it; there was never anything there in the first place.

deadmanshand

Quote from: Inkidu on February 12, 2015, 03:11:17 PM
The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was making people think he didn't exist. :P

You can't really argue what you're arguing while simultaneously telling people what they should and shouldn't get upset over.

Logic.

la dame en noir

#25
Quote from: Inkidu on February 12, 2015, 03:11:17 PM
The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was making people think he didn't exist. :P

You can't really argue what you're arguing while simultaneously telling people what they should and shouldn't get upset over.



What I mean is that people are REALLY upset over it. But I always find it strange that there are other matters to get REALLY upset over. Irritated? Yeah, losing sleep though? Probably not.

But I should know better than to come into a thread about 50 shades not feel like someone is going to be like "who the hell are you?" because I think differently.

EDIT: But I will apologize if I have offended anyone. I still do not know everyone well and I seemed to have really gotten under someone's skin. So I will let it be.
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deadmanshand

Ah... the victim play. Classic whiny bs stance to take. Never mind that you are arguing against a stance that no one in this thread has taken (Not a single person has said that this is super horrible and the worst thing ever) and using utterly flawed arguments to do so while claimingthat you aren't actually arguing. No. That has nothing to do with how people are reacting to you.

la dame en noir

Apologizing is not playing the victim. I thought you let this go? So just stop it.
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Blythe

Best to take a step back for those feeling frustrated and agree to disagree at this point, please.

la dame en noir

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The Golden Touch

I had a discussion about the examples of abuse, manipulation and stalker behavior shown in the 50 shades phenomenon yesterday. They are startlingly numerous, and I understand the appeal because I've written stories like this but there is no happy ending when these are used in a story. What bothers me, is that as a bdsm based movie- that is what they're portraying. He isn't the perfect man, it isn't a healthy relationship, I would run the other way.

It's a 50 Shades of ways I don't want my lifestyle to look like to the general public.

"Yesterday was the easy day."
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deadmanshand

Quote from: Blythe on February 12, 2015, 03:34:33 PM
Best to take a step back for those feeling frustrated and agree to disagree at this point, please.

See I already did that and the response I got was more argumentative posts and a really bitch PM. So I was willing to walk away before. Now I'm amused and wanting to play.

@la dame en noir - I wasn't referring to your backtracking apology because that was edited in as I was typing. I was referring to the rest of that post. Reading comprehension is - oddly I know - a fantastically developed skill on my part.

la dame en noir

Well before you blocked me I was going to say that you seem like an intelligent person and I was only trying to find common ground because I don't want enemies...

Anyways sorry for flooding your thread.
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Mithlomwen

Quote from: deadmanshand on February 12, 2015, 03:49:25 PM
See I already did that and the response I got was more argumentative posts and a really bitch PM. So I was willing to walk away before. Now I'm amused and wanting to play.


Enough.  If the subject matter is so upsetting to you that it renders you incapable of being civil, or reduces you to snark, then it is best to walk away from the discussion. 

There is no 'being amused and wanting to play' while baiting another person. 

Either take it to PM, or leave the discussion.

Baby, it's all I know,
that your half of the flesh and blood that makes me whole...

jouzinka

Quote from: Nicholas on February 12, 2015, 01:30:01 PM
What can we expect of a plot that could have been written by a ten year old? (not the theme per se, but the shabby dialogue, the almost complete lack of plot, etc.)
Well... what can you expect of a book that came to be as a fanfiction based on a work which, if you take out the "romance," is a story about a girl that moved in to town where it rains a lot?

I thought 9 1/2 weeks was really bad as far as Lifestyle went. I feel like I should go and personally apologize to everyone involved in the making of it.

A personal gripe: Hollywood is full of super-sexy hunks and they cast this um... him? I realize they had to recast on a very short notice when Charlie Hunnam withdrew from the project 48 hours before the first shot, but man. (;>.<)

Anyway, Ellen is always the best.
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TheGlyphstone

Apparently Home Depot is sending copies of FSoG to its stores for employees as 'recommended work-related reading material', to better prepare themselves to answer questions and give recommendations to customers who show up looking to buy ropes and cable ties (imitating a scene in the movie where Grey buys 'supplies' at a hardware store, I guess).

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2015/02/10/fifty-shades-of-grey-staff-memo_n_6650758.html

la dame en noir

Quote from: TheGlyphstone on February 12, 2015, 04:03:54 PM
Apparently Home Depot is sending copies of FSoG to its stores for employees as 'recommended work-related reading material', to better prepare themselves to answer questions and give recommendations to customers who show up looking to buy ropes and cable ties (imitating a scene in the movie where Grey buys 'supplies' at a hardware store, I guess).

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2015/02/10/fifty-shades-of-grey-staff-memo_n_6650758.html

Omg...are you serious?
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TheGlyphstone

Quote from: la dame en noir on February 12, 2015, 04:04:34 PM
Omg...are you serious?

The leaked internal memo is in the news article. "Staff Briefing - Preparation for Fifty Shades of Grey Customer Queries"
Quote
B&Q have also sent copies of the book to each store so that staff can borrow, read and pass them on to other colleagues.

Beorning

Quote from: TheGlyphstone on February 12, 2015, 04:03:54 PM
Apparently Home Depot is sending copies of FSoG to its stores for employees as 'recommended work-related reading material', to better prepare themselves to answer questions and give recommendations to customers who show up looking to buy ropes and cable ties (imitating a scene in the movie where Grey buys 'supplies' at a hardware store, I guess).

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2015/02/10/fifty-shades-of-grey-staff-memo_n_6650758.html

:o  :o  :o  :o  :o  :o

la dame en noir

Quote from: TheGlyphstone on February 12, 2015, 04:05:18 PM
The leaked internal memo is in the news article. "Staff Briefing - Preparation for Fifty Shades of Grey Customer Queries"

HA! A hardware store? I can't right now...this is not a good idea. I can't believe it....I really can't.
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Iniquitous

I cannot wait till all of this has passed. I am so sick of hearing about it from the radio, the tv, and the coworkers that are practically drooling over themselves to go and see it. And with any luck, they will not be making the second or third book into movies. The steaming pile of crap that is these books is dangerous and, quite frankly, annoying to hear about constantly.
Bow to the Queen; I'm the Alpha, the Omega, everything in between.


Inkidu

Quote from: Iniquitous Opheliac on February 12, 2015, 04:18:23 PM
I cannot wait till all of this has passed. I am so sick of hearing about it from the radio, the tv, and the coworkers that are practically drooling over themselves to go and see it. And with any luck, they will not be making the second or third book into movies. The steaming pile of crap that is these books is dangerous and, quite frankly, annoying to hear about constantly.
I think the second movie has already been picked up. :(

Sorry to pee in your Easter basket. :(
If you're searching the lines for a point, well you've probably missed it; there was never anything there in the first place.

TheGlyphstone

if internet sources are accurate, so has the 3rd movie.

Can we hope for terrible ticket sales and cancellation of the sequels?

RedPhoenix

Ticket sales will probably suck, and the studios will interpret it as "see this is what happens when we make movies for women."

The glass is half empty. Of poison. That you just drank.

*wanders off with storm clouds over head*
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Inkidu

Quote from: TheGlyphstone on February 12, 2015, 04:23:45 PM
if internet sources are accurate, so has the 3rd movie.

Can we hope for terrible ticket sales and cancellation of the sequels?
We can't take that risk. I'm sure some publisher thought the same about the book and look how well that turned out...

I'll get the ninjas; something has to be done!
If you're searching the lines for a point, well you've probably missed it; there was never anything there in the first place.

deadmanshand

Quote from: Mithlomwen on February 12, 2015, 03:52:01 PM
Enough.  If the subject matter is so upsetting to you that it renders you incapable of being civil, or reduces you to snark, then it is best to walk away from the discussion. 

There is no 'being amused and wanting to play' while baiting another person. 

Either take it to PM, or leave the discussion.

And this is why I tried to walk away earlier.

TheGlyphstone

Quote from: RedPhoenix on February 12, 2015, 04:25:32 PM
Ticket sales will probably suck, and the studios will interpret it as "see this is what happens when we make movies for women."

The glass is half empty. Of poison. That you just drank.

*wanders off with storm clouds over head*

At least it was only half empty, instead of less than half empty. Maybe that's a survivable dose.

RedPhoenix

Quote from: TheGlyphstone on February 12, 2015, 04:30:08 PM
At least it was only half empty, instead of less than half empty. Maybe that's a survivable dose.

It is ... *rolls dice* ... not survivable.
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Iniquitous

Quote from: TheGlyphstone on February 12, 2015, 04:23:45 PM
if internet sources are accurate, so has the 3rd movie.

Can we hope for terrible ticket sales and cancellation of the sequels?

Shoot me now.

Oh, and as a side note: EL James flat out refuses to acknowledge, consider and/or discuss the fact that a lot of people see her "bdsm romance" as romanticizing abuse. She even blocks domestic violence victims so that they cannot contact her to discuss and explain what issues they have with her books.
Bow to the Queen; I'm the Alpha, the Omega, everything in between.


la dame en noir

Quote from: Iniquitous Opheliac on February 12, 2015, 04:35:11 PM
Shoot me now.

Oh, and as a side note: EL James flat out refuses to acknowledge, consider and/or discuss the fact that a lot of people see her "bdsm romance" as romanticizing abuse. She even blocks domestic violence victims so that they cannot contact her to discuss and explain what issues they have with her books.


Well thats pleasant to hear.
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Inkidu

Quote from: Iniquitous Opheliac on February 12, 2015, 04:35:11 PM
Shoot me now.

Oh, and as a side note: EL James flat out refuses to acknowledge, consider and/or discuss the fact that a lot of people see her "bdsm romance" as romanticizing abuse. She even blocks domestic violence victims so that they cannot contact her to discuss and explain what issues they have with her books.

Sounds like a really classy lady. :P
If you're searching the lines for a point, well you've probably missed it; there was never anything there in the first place.

deadmanshand

Quote from: Iniquitous Opheliac on February 12, 2015, 04:35:11 PM
Shoot me now.

Oh, and as a side note: EL James flat out refuses to acknowledge, consider and/or discuss the fact that a lot of people see her "bdsm romance" as romanticizing abuse. She even blocks domestic violence victims so that they cannot contact her to discuss and explain what issues they have with her books.


Such a wonderful person.

Lilias

Quote from: jouzinka on February 12, 2015, 03:55:51 PM
A personal gripe: Hollywood is full of super-sexy hunks and they cast this um... him? I realize they had to recast on a very short notice when Charlie Hunnam withdrew from the project 48 hours before the first shot, but man. (;>.<)

No career to ruin. ::)

#cynic
To go in the dark with a light is to know the light.
To know the dark, go dark. Go without sight,
and find that the dark, too, blooms and sings,
and is traveled by dark feet and dark wings.
~Wendell Berry

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jouzinka

Quote from: Lilias on February 12, 2015, 04:55:47 PM
No career to ruin. ::)

#cynic
Sad as it is, I think it would sky-rocket him among the likes of George Clooney (where he rightfully belongs).
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VioletPanda

   As someone in 'the scene' I find the book a complete and utter disgrace...and yet...disturbingly accurate as to what happens when people aren't informed. I've been there when it was done wrong and I've been there when it's done right. Huge difference.
      I'd just like to note one thing I particularly hate about the book. Christian Grey is portrayed as someone who's 'sick' and wants to control things because there is something wrong with him when that is not always the case for Doms and Masters. It can be, but it's rare. Some people are leaders and others are followers. It's as simple as that. I can plan well, but when it comes to execution or actually giving orders, I can't do it. Just because there is someone out there who can give those orders doesn't mean that there is something wrong with them! It just means they are different!

   I was teased more than enough about my differences in school to confidently say that unless it hurts others or yourself, different should never be referred to as sick or wrong!
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la dame en noir

Quote from: LukaWolf on February 12, 2015, 05:16:47 PM
   As someone in 'the scene' I find the book a complete and utter disgrace...and yet...disturbingly accurate as to what happens when people aren't informed. I've been there when it was done wrong and I've been there when it's done right. Huge difference.
      I'd just like to note one thing I particularly hate about the book. Christian Grey is portrayed as someone who's 'sick' and wants to control things because there is something wrong with him when that is not always the case for Doms and Masters. It can be, but it's rare. Some people are leaders and others are followers. It's as simple as that. I can plan well, but when it comes to execution or actually giving orders, I can't do it. Just because there is someone out there who can give those orders doesn't mean that there is something wrong with them! It just means they are different!

   I was teased more than enough about my differences in school to confidently say that unless it hurts others or yourself, different should never be referred to as sick or wrong!

^ this
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deadmanshand

LukaWolf - His kind of control is indicative of mental illness that causes harm and suffering to those exposed to it. He doesn't just give orders he needs to give orders. In the few scenes where he is not in control he either breaks down or grows violent. That is not different. It's sick. Take this from a man who has a degree in psychology specializing in behavior disorders and one who has spent significant chunks of his life helping out at women's shelter and is the son of a man who acted just like Mr. Gray.

At least in the controlling sense. There isn't enough money in the world to make me ask my mother if they were into BDSM.

VioletPanda

   Right right, Deadmanshand. I know his kind of control is indicative of a mental illness. I'm just saying not all Doms or Masters are like that and it's a terrible representation of BDSM. Very few are, actually.

  I even said in my first post that 'unless it hurts yourself or others it shouldn't be called sick.' He clearly is. I'm talking about people in the scene who don't have a compulsive need.

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consortium11

I dislike 50 Shades... as others mentioned it's a BDSM twilight fanfiction written by someone with no experience of BDSM (and bad writing) and its success is pretty much entirely the result of luck, marketing and being the first semi-erotic novel to go over the parapet at a time when Kindles meant that one can read it without the fear of public shaming.

(Which may be a reason the film struggles; you can't exactly hide what film you're watching)

But despite being a pretty active in the BDSM scene and one of its strongest defenders (just see my posts on E) I can't find myself too bothered by it. Yes, we all know it's not a healthy or realistic portrayal of a BDSM relationship... but if anything the interest it generated actually helped keep the BDSM scene healthy because people couldn't swing a cat (or more perhaps  more aptly, spank a bottom) online during a discussion of it without having how unhealthy and unrealistic it was pointed out. And at the end of the day it's a romance novels. Romance novels basically live and die by romanticizing their subject matter as much as possible; Twilight (remember, the basis for 50 Shades) is as perfect an example of that as any.

And lets be clear, a realistic portrayal of a BDSM relationship isn't actually that sexy or exciting. Sure, the actual BDSM may be, but before and after? The build-up to real life BDSM play doesn't include eyes burning with lust, long, lingering glances, slow seductive hands running across bodies and the two participants suddenly being so overwhelmed with passion that they leap at each other... at least for me. For me it tends to include a cup of tea, a couple of biscuits and long chats about what we're going to do in a distinctly unsexy way. Now, sure, talking about what's going to happen can be pretty erotic and an excellent type of foreplay in it's own right but it can also involve long discussions about exactly what type of rope we're going to use and what knots we're going to tie in it. And the aftermath frequently features another cup of tea, yet more biscuits and a fairly boring discussion about what we liked and didn't like about it. Then factor in that if the play is with someone new to BDSM it will likely also involve a safeword being said, everything stopping and yet more tea + biscuits as one discusses what someone didn't like, why they didn't like it and if it's something they'd ever contemplate doing again or if it's a hard no before the scene may or may not continue.

50 Shades is a romanticised version of (actually somewhat mild) BDSM (with some stalking behavior thrown in for good measure). I'm pretty sure I can go through the NC and EX forums here and see even more unhealthy BDSM relationships portrayed and explained in an equally romantacised form. Hell, the entire concept of NC is basically the romantacisation taken to the extreme... while many people enjoy the fantasy of being taken without consent (it's supposedly one of the most popular amongst women) I struggle to think there's many, if any, who would enjoy the exceptionally nasty reality of it. One can of course point out that stories on E are only semi-public and not a wordwide best seller... but if one moves beyond these guarded borders to the public internet one can find equally romantacised tales, be it on Literotica, BDSMLibrary, MCStories or one any number of other places. Do we condemn all such authors as well for what they've written? After all the only real difference there is that the content in such stories is often far worse, those authors decided to publish on those websites rather than their own and they never approached a small publisher to distribute it for them.

Such thoughts also touch on my response to EL James not responding to abuse victims. On the face of it it's horrible... but what would happen if any of us who write EX or NC stories here got a PM from someone who had survived abuse and explaining all the issues they had with the post? And what if it wasn't one but dozens. A day. I like to think that we'd be receptive and patient with the first message but at what point would we just throw up our hands and say "no more"? How many times would we explain that what we write is a fantasy, not a reality and thus it's not intended or expected to be a realistic portrayal? And it is extremely difficult to protect oneself entirely from seeing such things, even on E. Yes, one can minimise the EX and NC boards so they don't appear... but that doesn't protect against reading an O&O thread that discusses them or an RP request that mentions them or threads containing such content being linked too from elsewhere.

deadmanshand

Quote from: LukaWolf on February 12, 2015, 05:46:51 PM
   Right right, Deadmanshand. I know his kind of control is indicative of a mental illness. I'm just saying not all Doms or Masters are like that and it's a terrible representation of BDSM. Very few are, actually.

  I even said in my first post that 'unless it hurts yourself or others it shouldn't be called sick.' He clearly is. I'm talking about people in the scene who don't have a compulsive need.



Then you just re-iterated what everyone else was saying in an odd form. Gotcha. Your phrasing was unclear in the original post.

Beautiful Mystery

Alright, I was curious if a discussion would come up about the movie since it is being released soon. I just want to start off by saying that I have not read the book or seen the movie yet. Nor am I "very" familiar with the BDSM lifestyle. I pretty much have very limited information about a BDSM lifestyle. Considering I have not read the book, I was curious about a few things and wondering if someone who has read the book if I have heard right. I am not here to argue for the book (or against it really), I was just wondering if someone could help me understand some things.

I have heard (and I can see in this post), that the book does not appropriately convey what BDSM is really about. Which, I think it is hard to properly convey BDSM if they are not intimate and familiar with it. So from other people, I have heard the outrage of how the book "paints" BDSM in an almost "trendy" light now. How it is all "fun" and "sexy", "sensual" and such. So one person doesn't have to answer all of these questions (or even in this forum), I am just trying to gather some information. Once again, I am only relaying information I have read elsewhere (that other people have written) or what I have heard form others.

1. First off, how is the writing? Does it seem to be kind of lazily mashed together or is it written well? How are the sex scenes written? Going into detail or just glazing over aspects? Does it show the emotions of the two (Anastasia and Christian) during sex or is it just generic overview? Is it really just "porn" with a little bit of relationship or is it trying to describe a "true"(what the author thinks is true that is) BDSM relationship?
2. Does the writer portray the characters relationship as "normal" according to BDSM? I have read that it is very abusive instead, pretty much being domestic abuse but considered "Okay" by BDSM "standards." He doesn't help her after sex, comforting her does he? Is that something that is normally done in a BDSM relationship and just not in this book?  To transition out of the "act"? (Sorry if that is not the right word)
3. Another thing I have read elsewhere is the fact that Christian ignores the safe word that is established. That he does not stop, instead just keeps going and ignoring her. Even with my limited knowledge of BDSM, I know that a safe word is certainly key.
4. Does he basically blackmail her into signing a contract? And he preys on the fact that she is a virgin and inexperienced? 
5. Is Anastasia really fearful of him? Fearful that he will hurt her because Christian gets angry easily?
6. Does he ever "hit" her? I mean, something either in the act of sex or just otherwise? (Not like spanking but like an actual hit) Does it seem like domestic abuse, or does it just seem (to people unfamiliar with BDSM) as "rough sex"?
7. Does he use alcohol to basically make her unable to consent? Well, I guess know that she is consenting?

I am not in a BDSM relationship, nor have I ever been in that lifestyle. So I don't want to say that I know how things are. I certainly don't. I have only collected pieces of information from reading on it and being on here. If anyone who has read the book (or seen the movie) could just help me out, that would be great (: Someone can send me a PM to answer these questions or they can be answered in the post.
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la dame en noir

Quote from: Beautiful Mystery on February 12, 2015, 06:28:53 PM
Alright, I was curious if a discussion would come up about the movie since it is being released soon. I just want to start off by saying that I have not read the book or seen the movie yet. Nor am I "very" familiar with the BDSM lifestyle. I pretty much have very limited information about a BDSM lifestyle. Considering I have not read the book, I was curious about a few things and wondering if someone who has read the book if I have heard right. I am not here to argue for the book (or against it really), I was just wondering if someone could help me understand some things.

I have heard (and I can see in this post), that the book does not appropriately convey what BDSM is really about. Which, I think it is hard to properly convey BDSM if they are not intimate and familiar with it. So from other people, I have heard the outrage of how the book "paints" BDSM in an almost "trendy" light now. How it is all "fun" and "sexy", "sensual" and such. So one person doesn't have to answer all of these questions (or even in this forum), I am just trying to gather some information. Once again, I am only relaying information I have read elsewhere (that other people have written) or what I have heard form others.

1. First off, how is the writing? Does it seem to be kind of lazily mashed together or is it written well? How are the sex scenes written? Going into detail or just glazing over aspects? Does it show the emotions of the two (Anastasia and Christian) during sex or is it just generic overview? Is it really just "porn" with a little bit of relationship or is it trying to describe a "true"(what the author thinks is true that is) BDSM relationship?
2. Does the writer portray the characters relationship as "normal" according to BDSM? I have read that it is very abusive instead, pretty much being domestic abuse but considered "Okay" by BDSM "standards." He doesn't help her after sex, comforting her does he? Is that something that is normally done in a BDSM relationship and just not in this book?  To transition out of the "act"? (Sorry if that is not the right word)
3. Another thing I have read elsewhere is the fact that Christian ignores the safe word that is established. That he does not stop, instead just keeps going and ignoring her. Even with my limited knowledge of BDSM, I know that a safe word is certainly key.
4. Does he basically blackmail her into signing a contract? And he preys on the fact that she is a virgin and inexperienced? 
5. Is Anastasia really fearful of him? Fearful that he will hurt her because Christian gets angry easily?
6. Does he ever "hit" her? I mean, something either in the act of sex or just otherwise? (Not like spanking but like an actual hit) Does it seem like domestic abuse, or does it just seem (to people unfamiliar with BDSM) as "rough sex"?
7. Does he use alcohol to basically make her unable to consent? Well, I guess know that she is consenting?

I am not in a BDSM relationship, nor have I ever been in that lifestyle. So I don't want to say that I know how things are. I certainly don't. I have only collected pieces of information from reading on it and being on here. If anyone who has read the book (or seen the movie) could just help me out, that would be great (: Someone can send me a PM to answer these questions or they can be answered in the post.

1. It's rushed and lazy. Clearly you can tell this woman just wanted to make it smut - which is fine. Though it reminded me of how bad I was at writing smut when I was 13.
2. No, its not normal. But its not normal for a healthy relationship either. However, there are some men in the community that are like this and those are the ones you want to watch out for.
3. He does ignore the safe word - though I forgot which scene it was exactly
4. He loves that she's inexperienced, most of this stems from his unhealthy BDSM relationship he had with another woman when he was younger. She basically preyed off his innocence. As for the contract - I don't remember if it was blackmail or not, but I do think he kept wooing her with gifts to get her to that point. But she followed because she was curious.
5. There are times where she tries to avoid him, but always seems to come back to him.
6. No...he does not hit her - he does yell a lot though (mostly when he thinks she's done something stupid, correct me if i'm wrong)
7. This one I don't remember.

This is just my take however.
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deadmanshand

Let me start off by saying that there is not a single sensual thing in these books but I'll do my best to answer you point for point.

1. The writing is Twilight level awful. Just terrible. Full of euphemisms and cliches and completely lacking in anything resembling emotion. I would be ashamed to write something that terrible here. It's trying to be mommy porn. It's not even trying to represent a real bdsm relationship.

2. This book has nothing in common with a real relationship of any kind outside of abuser-victim relationship. There is no informed consent nor aftercare. There is no respect at all for the sub. None.

3. See number two.

4. Manipulates. Not blackmails.

5. Yes.

6. I'm not sure he really hits her outside of sex but the sex just comes off as abusive. Not rough. Not bdsm. Just abusive. Plus he rapes her while she kicks at him and screams no but it's okay because she enjoys it.

7. Don't remember on that one. Sorry.

Iniquitous

#63
Quote from: Beautiful Mystery on February 12, 2015, 06:28:53 PM

1. First off, how is the writing? Does it seem to be kind of lazily mashed together or is it written well? How are the sex scenes written? Going into detail or just glazing over aspects? Does it show the emotions of the two (Anastasia and Christian) during sex or is it just generic overview? Is it really just "porn" with a little bit of relationship or is it trying to describe a "true"(what the author thinks is true that is) BDSM relationship?

The writing is horrible. Think 5th grade reading level.  Anastasia has internal conversations with her subconscious and her 'inner goddess' (euphemism for her vagina). She uses the phrase 'oh my' more than George Takei. Let's not even discuss the use of 'shades of' throughout the whole disaster.

The sex scenes are comical at best. Not a lot of nitty gritty detail. Somewhat unrealistic - you know, the usual 'he's hung like a horse' and Anastasia is surprisingly able to take him ramming in with no warm up the very first time, her only reaction being an "ARRGH!" No descriptions of emotions during sex. Matter of fact, what emotions are written about in the book tend to be Anastasia's (and Christian is ignoring them).


Quote2. Does the writer portray the characters relationship as "normal" according to BDSM? I have read that it is very abusive instead, pretty much being domestic abuse but considered "Okay" by BDSM "standards." He doesn't help her after sex, comforting her does he? Is that something that is normally done in a BDSM relationship and just not in this book?  To transition out of the "act"? (Sorry if that is not the right word)

She actually writes it that Christian's lifestyle is due to being messed up as a child and having him a sub to a much older woman when he was a teen. The impression the book gives is that anyone who is into BDSM is messed up, most likely due to something horrible that happened to them as a child.

No, he doesn't help her after sex. He does not comfort her afterwards. In fact, it is written into the book that the only thing that matters to him is HIS needs and wants.


Quote3. Another thing I have read elsewhere is the fact that Christian ignores the safe word that is established. That he does not stop, instead just keeps going and ignoring her. Even with my limited knowledge of BDSM, I know that a safe word is certainly key.

She never used the safe word (at least not in the first book. I couldn't force myself to read the last two books). But Christian does ignore he every time she tells him she didn't like what he does/did. He ignores anything she says that doesn't go along with his likes/dislikes. He ignores her request for distance.

Quote4. Does he basically blackmail her into signing a contract? And he preys on the fact that she is a virgin and inexperienced?

There was no blackmail that I can remember. He just kept pushing and pushing and pushing for her to sign. He did not want to give her time to think on the whole situation. And he was annoyed that she was a virgin.

Quote5. Is Anastasia really fearful of him? Fearful that he will hurt her because Christian gets angry easily?

There are several points in the book that Anastasia has thoughts of being scared of Christian. She even uses the word "abused".

Quote6. Does he ever "hit" her? I mean, something either in the act of sex or just otherwise? (Not like spanking but like an actual hit) Does it seem like domestic abuse, or does it just seem (to people unfamiliar with BDSM) as "rough sex"?

Let's just show some things,

QuoteWhat did I say Iā€™d do to you if you rolled your eyes at me again?ā€ Shit. He sits down on the edge of the bed. ā€œCome here,ā€ he says softly. I blanch. Jeezā€¦ heā€™s serious. I sit staring at him completely immobile. ā€œI havenā€™t signed,ā€ I whisper. ā€œI told you what Iā€™d do. Iā€™m a man of my word. Iā€™m going to spank you, and then Iā€™m going to fuck you very quick and very hard.

My insides practically contort with potent, needy, liquid, desire. [...] Should I run? [...]  Do I let him do this or do I say no, and then thatā€™s it? Because I know it will be over if I say no.
[/i]

QuoteHe places his hand on my naked behind, softly fondling me, stroking round and round with his flat palm. And then his hand is no longer thereā€¦ and he hits me ā€“ hard. Ow! My eyes spring open in response to the pain, and I try to rise, but his hand moves between my shoulder blades keeping me down. He caresses me again where heā€™s hit me, and his breathingā€™s changed ā€“ itā€™s louder, harsher. He hits me again and again, quickly in succession. Holy fuck it hurts. I make no sound, my face screwed up against the pain. I try and wriggle away from the blows ā€“ spurred on by adrenaline spiking and coursing through my body.

QuoteHe hits me againā€¦ this is getting harder to take. My face hurts, itā€™s screwed up so tight. He strokes me gently and then the blow comes. I cry out again. ā€œNo one to hear you, baby, just me.ā€ And he hits me again and again. From somewhere deep inside, I want to beg him to stop. But I donā€™t. I donā€™t want to give him the satisfaction. He continues the unrelenting rhythm. I cry out six more times. Eighteen slaps in total.

QuoteEnough,ā€ he breathes hoarsely. ā€œWell done, Anastasia. Now Iā€™m going to fuck you.

Now, she is not a bottom. She does not like pain. She does not like punishment. She is not submissive. The book has been clear on this clear up to this point. This is a description of a woman being beaten. Let's look at him. He ignores the fact that she is not a bottom, does not like pain, does not like punishment and is not submissive. No No #1. He does not check in with her while spanking her. No No #2. He does not do any warm up. No No #3. His technique is horrible. Anastasia is not getting anything out of this except pain.



Quote7. Does he use alcohol to basically make her unable to consent? Well, I guess know that she is consenting?

Pretty much.

Bow to the Queen; I'm the Alpha, the Omega, everything in between.


la dame en noir

@Iniquitous Opheliac: Nice summary.

I also want to say that his lack of aftercare made me so mad. Thats something that I forgot - its been awhile seen I read the book.
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Mithlomwen

This link takes a few quotes directly from the book,  showing how abusive Christian is. 
Baby, it's all I know,
that your half of the flesh and blood that makes me whole...

la dame en noir

I want to know why the writer wrote him that way... and why so many women found him attractive (I was one of them) But after reading the book through twice, I was like hmmm

Anyone have any theories?
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jouzinka

Because the line between a Dom and asshole is pretty thin and fine (and not every Dom dances on it with the grace of a Russian primaballerina).

Because John in 9 1/2 weeks was the same kind of manipulative asshole and apparently it is now rooted in popular culture that Dom = manipulative abusive jerk.

Since it is supposed to be Edward / Bella fanfiction, I can only assume the inspiration came from there. Especially for the unhealthy dependence on the man.
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Mithlomwen

I haven't read the books (don't plan to), and I won't be seeing the movie(s). 

It was originally written as a Twilight fan fiction, so I would imagine part of it (and I'm just guessing on this) was she had originally modeled the character after a vampire or a werewolf....or what she thought one might be like. 

My guess would be that when she decided to make it a mainstream novel, she modified Christian a little bit.  It seems like she took a very limited knowledge of BDSM and wrote what she thought a Dom would be like, and perhaps used what she thought would be sexy as a guide. 

Baby, it's all I know,
that your half of the flesh and blood that makes me whole...

Beautiful Mystery

la dame en noir, deadmanshand, Iniquitous Opheliac and Mithlomwen,

I would just like to thank you for taking the time to respond and answer my questions. I have been debating about reading the book (Just to see if it is really that bad and check if what I heard was right). I was curious as to if things were that bad in the book or if people were just exaggerating a bit. I had already formed a opinion when it first came out. I really didn't want to read it (before I found out it was Twilight fanfic) and figured I could find a lot of other "erotica" online. But since I am not versed in BDSM, I wanted someone who was more familiar with it to explain to me. Because those quotes? That seems to be too far in my opinion. But I also don't know the BDSM lifestyle and I can't tell what is used and what isn't and to what extent.

Quote from: la dame en noir on February 12, 2015, 07:12:07 PM
I want to know why the writer wrote him that way... and why so many women found him attractive (I was one of them) But after reading the book through twice, I was like hmmm

Anyone have any theories?

I think, perhaps it is the fact that he is a man in power and is supposed to be very attractive. The man who has it all. Looks, money, power and such. That appeals to some women. And I guess it is supposed to be "sexy" to be "dominated" by a guy like that. Shrugs That is what I think. Then again, I am just saying what I see from the outside haha xD
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Lustful Bride

#70
Quote from: deadmanshand on February 12, 2015, 11:44:04 AM
I don't normally do things like this but I have had so many women shove this book in my face and talk about how dreamy stalker-abuser Christian Gray is that I am forced to. The earliest reviews of the movie are in and critics consensus is - drum roll - that is the Worst Movie They Have Ever Seen! God that feels good to type! Now I know that the movie will make money based off of the legions of people who can't differentiate between abuse and love and think that BDSM means owning another person but it's something at least.

Yes.. its like you read my mind....stop doing that. - _ - I don't like people in my mind.

la dame en noir

Yeah, I guess the idea of a wealthy man who isn't half bad looking and wants you however he wants you...is hot.

Which is why I spend most of my time in the NC solo forums.
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Iniquitous

He was wrote that way because James didn't bother to research anything about the BDSM lifestyle before sitting down to write..
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la dame en noir

It just feels like she was not connecting them as characters. But it was poorly written afterall.
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Beautiful Mystery

Maybe she was writing her fantasy? As in she wanted a guy like this to do those things to her? It could be a reason why she didn't research BDSM, just went on what she thought was BDSM in her fantasy. But it is fiction. No idea lol
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la dame en noir

Quote from: Beautiful Mystery on February 12, 2015, 07:40:47 PM
Maybe she was writing her fantasy? As in she wanted a guy like this to do those things to her? It could be a reason why she didn't research BDSM, just went on what she thought was BDSM in her fantasy. But it is fiction. No idea lol

Thats ultimately how I took it and other women just happened to enjoy the same stuff.
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TaintedAndDelish

I have not read the book, but do plan on taking the misses to see it tomorrow. She read the three books and loved them - and yes, she's a nilla. She's also planning on see it with her girlfriends separately. ( They too liked the book )

One point that was mentioned here and is worth mentioning again is that the book does have a strong following, so while the book may not be strongly aligned with BDSM, it IS aligned with something that much of it's audience loves.

One thing that I've noticed is that the bashing of this book as crappy as it may be, seems to be with a great amount of passion. I'm kind of curious about the source and reason for that level of passion.


Quote from Wikipedia regarding sales volume
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifty_Shades_of_Grey

QuoteThe second and third volumes, Fifty Shades Darker and Fifty Shades Freed, were published in 2012. Fifty Shades of Grey has topped best-seller lists around the world, including those of the United Kingdom and the United States.[5][6] The series has sold over 100 million copies worldwide and been translated into 52 languages,[7] and set a record in the United Kingdom as the fastest-selling paperback of all time.[8] Critical reception of the book, however, has been mixed, with the quality of its prose generally seen as poor.


Inkidu

#78
I imagine it's that quality in certain men that if Grey were a little economically challenged he'd be just another shirtless denizen of a trailer park being hauled away in a cop car with a woman running after him yelling, "Lock his ass up! Lock! His! Ass! Up!"

That's what irks me about this series so much. Almost universally reviled by almost all strata of critic and the readership is divided in such a love-it-or-hate-it-way. Still sell millions of copies and can get a movie deal. So any criticism is basically water off the duck's back that is James's. Woman gets to laugh all the way to the bank on something that is pretty much agreed to be striving for mediocre
If you're searching the lines for a point, well you've probably missed it; there was never anything there in the first place.

Sabine

Quote from: Inkidu on February 12, 2015, 08:59:41 PM
I imagine it's that quality in certain men that if Grey were a little economically challenged he'd be just another shirtless denizen of a trailer park being hauled away in a cop car with a woman running after him yelling, "Lock his ass up! Lock! His! As! Up!"

That's what irks me about this series so much. Almost universally reviled by almost all strata of critic and the readership is divided in such a love-it-or-hate-it-way. Still sell millions of copies and can get a movie deal. So any criticism is basically water off the duck's back that is James's. Woman gets to laugh all the way to the bank on something that is pretty much agreed to be striving for mediocre

All of this.

That first sentence though...I want to quote it and put it in my signature. I can't stop laughing ^_^
~Sabine~

My ons/offs:
On & Offs

Inkidu

#80
Quote from: Sabine on February 12, 2015, 09:06:24 PM
All of this.

That first sentence though...I want to quote it and put it in my signature. I can't stop laughing ^_^
Feel free to use it if you wish. :3

EDIT: Also feel free to correct any spelling errors. My keyboard on my laptop is starting to be... troublesome. X__X
If you're searching the lines for a point, well you've probably missed it; there was never anything there in the first place.

Sabine

~Sabine~

My ons/offs:
On & Offs

Beautiful Mystery

I wonder if this book would be popular if Christian was an older man....

Or what if the roles were reversed? Anastasia as a "dom" and Christian as a "sub"... would people still like it? Would women like it? Or would more men like it?

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Sabine

Quote from: Inkidu on February 12, 2015, 09:13:51 PM
Feel free to use it if you wish. :3

EDIT: Also feel free to correct any spelling errors. My keyboard on my laptop is starting to be... troublesome. X__X

Uh uh...the spelling error makes it sound even more trailer park-y. I love it just as it is :D
~Sabine~

My ons/offs:
On & Offs

Cycle

My take on it:

Fifty Shades of Grey provides an unhealthy wish fulfillment fantasy.  Anna is attractive to the reader because she is fundamentally free of all responsibility and decision making.  Christian is the tool to provide this: he is good looking, he covers her financial needs, he is a means to enjoy masochism without guilt, and his attention is focused on her relentlessly.

The entire concept is juvenile--but unfortunately, a too common wish.  Even among adults.

The book and the current commercialism spawned by it can pose problems by reinforcing the fans' wish to indulge in such unhealthy, adolescent fantasies rather than stepping up and do the unpleasant, difficult, and tedious work that is necessary to build a genuine, productive, healthy and useful lifestyle.  Worse, it creates the very real possibility that naive individuals are setting themselves up to be victims of predators.

I would wager that 99.9% of 50SoG's fans are not even aware what draws them to the book, and they want the unhealthy fantasy so strongly, that they will resist any attempt to persuade them there is anything wrong with the book(s).


deadmanshand

Quote from: Cycle on February 12, 2015, 09:29:13 PM
My take on it:

Fifty Shades of Grey provides an unhealthy wish fulfillment fantasy.  Anna is attractive to the reader because she is fundamentally free of all responsibility and decision making.  Christian is the tool to provide this: he is good looking, he covers her financial needs, he is a means to enjoy masochism without guilt, and his attention is focused on her relentlessly.

The entire concept is juvenile--but unfortunately, a too common wish.  Even among adults.

The book and the current commercialism spawned by it can pose problems by reinforcing the fans' wish to indulge in such unhealthy, adolescent fantasies rather than stepping up and do the unpleasant, difficult, and tedious work that is necessary to build a genuine, productive, healthy and useful lifestyle.  Worse, it creates the very real possibility that naive individuals are setting themselves up to be victims of predators.

I would wager that 99.9% of 50SoG's fans are not even aware what draws them to the book, and they want the unhealthy fantasy so strongly, that they will resist any attempt to persuade them there is anything wrong with the book(s).

Truth. Every last word of it.

Oniya

Quote from: la dame en noir on February 12, 2015, 04:06:56 PM
HA! A hardware store? I can't right now...this is not a good idea. I can't believe it....I really can't.

This particular meme predates FSOG:



And anyone who has been in hardware stores will recognize where that picture was taken.  XD
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TaintedAndDelish

I want to play devil's advocate for one moment to deepen the discussion. My intention is not to drop flame bait but to expose something that I think is being overlooked.

Could there be a smidgen of the "No True Scotsman" fallacy in some of the criticism about the relationship and alleged "kink" in this book? I keep hearing that it is not X, and not Y, but who really defines whether or not it's "true kink", or a "proper Ds relationship" or whatever. I know it has been pointed out quite clearly that there are things about the relationship in the story are are nothing more than abuse masquerading as BDSM and I won't argue with that point, but for me, I did not start any of my relationships out by looking a set of guidelines and checking to make sure that I was "doing it right". Likewise, for my own personal kinks, they are based on what pleases me, not on what the "kink community" (whoever these mysterious folks are) approves of.

Inkidu

It's not a case of what define's a kink. A kink is basically just a sexual idiosyncrasy. It can be a large one. BDSM often comes with but does not require whips and chains, but because there are often psychological imperatives to the kink. Some can be really small. Some people like panties. Not a whole lot of hardware needed for that.

The issue with 50 Shades isn't that the two indulge in kinky behavior. It's because they do it all wrong. He thinks nothing of her wants and needs. They employ no safe practices, and it's obvious Grey doesn't care about his sub (if she could be called that).
If you're searching the lines for a point, well you've probably missed it; there was never anything there in the first place.

deadmanshand

No. Because people are judging the relationship not based off of some imaginary checklist but based off of the actions taken. No one dislikes it because it doesn't  go through the same steps that they did in forming a relationship but because it violates the most basic tenets of what a relationship should be. It's not even a true relationship. It is simply one person imposing upon another with them receiving nothing in return. It fails to meet the base criteria for a real relationship between humans.

The kink and lifestyle complaints? Semantics. If they had just been in a vanilla controlling relationship it would have been just as offensive.

Inkidu

True if it had been just a vanilla relationship it would looked like your very often seen abusive one.
If you're searching the lines for a point, well you've probably missed it; there was never anything there in the first place.

deadmanshand

Right. The kink is there to mask the abuse and make it romantic using the public's misunderstanding of the lifestyle invoked. That's all.

la dame en noir

Quote from: Cycle on February 12, 2015, 09:29:13 PM
My take on it:

Fifty Shades of Grey provides an unhealthy wish fulfillment fantasy.  Anna is attractive to the reader because she is fundamentally free of all responsibility and decision making.  Christian is the tool to provide this: he is good looking, he covers her financial needs, he is a means to enjoy masochism without guilt, and his attention is focused on her relentlessly.

The entire concept is juvenile--but unfortunately, a too common wish.  Even among adults.

The book and the current commercialism spawned by it can pose problems by reinforcing the fans' wish to indulge in such unhealthy, adolescent fantasies rather than stepping up and do the unpleasant, difficult, and tedious work that is necessary to build a genuine, productive, healthy and useful lifestyle.  Worse, it creates the very real possibility that naive individuals are setting themselves up to be victims of predators.

I would wager that 99.9% of 50SoG's fans are not even aware what draws them to the book, and they want the unhealthy fantasy so strongly, that they will resist any attempt to persuade them there is anything wrong with the book(s).



Wouldn't say I'm a fan, just someone who views it as a piece of poorly written smut. I've read stories on E that are more extreme and far worse than this book. I think what makes people so disgusted(besides the abuse) is that its so reachable to so many people. At least here we can understand that it is just a story. Some might think that some will take it farther than it just being a fictional story.
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TheGlyphstone

#93
Also, I'd imagine there is a sort of...I'm not really sure how to express it in words here....a sort of projective concern that accounts for a portion of the kink/BDSM community's dislike of the book? Like those Munch clubs planning to picket FSoG theaters with pamphlets about what the BDSM lifestyle actually entails - people who enjoy BDSM already exist on the fringe of cultural acceptance, half-understood by society at large. So having something that so grossly mis-represents a part of themselves/their own lifestyle that they consider to be very important become so popular is harmful to them/their self-image/their image to a greater public who already has negative preconceptions about them? Like if someone published a bestselling true crime novel where the police officer protagonists were all ethnic slur-spewing, donut-eating, power-hungry sadistic thugs, and this was glorified in-book to be the 'correct' way to be a police officer; you can easily imagine how popular such a novel would be amongst actual police officers. Or, if you'd prefer an example less politically charged, a best-selling war modern war novel about a group of American soldiers who were all racist gung-ho sociopaths that enjoyed nothing better than spending a relaxing Saturday night committing war crimes on foreign civilians, and how popular that would be amongst serving or retired military. Okay, so maybe that wasn't much less politically charged, but I can't think of an example that doesn't get what I am trying to say across.

...does that make any sense?

la dame en noir

But people write politically incorrect things all the time. I know its a little off topic but; Someone could write all of these stereotypical black characters and then they meet me. I am not that stereotype and those that don't look the media for their information source would know that not everyone acts how the stereotype is represented.

Can we judge the same people who desire to roleplay things such as an abuse controlling relationship?

I ultimately think what really scares people is the fact that it was broadcasted to the entire world. If it was kept on a fanfiction site or in her journal, no one would be up in arms. But since the poorly written smut is a best selling novel and now a movie...people are upset and I understand it.
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TheGlyphstone

Yeah, that's sort of what I am trying to get across. It's the mass public portrayal, and what that portrayal will do for widespread perception of an intimate part of their life, that has people up in arms. Not so much that it's making buttloads of money despite its poor quality, but because it will likely be the first, and possibly only, introduction for a great many people into the BDSM world.

la dame en noir

Just like how people look at the media and scream "black people are animals, educated, loud, and stupid"? unfortunately a lot of people believe that. But yeah I guess we agree, I can't really comprehend because I'm kind of mind effed at the moment.
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TaintedAndDelish

Quote from: TheGlyphstone on February 12, 2015, 11:24:26 PM
Yeah, that's sort of what I am trying to get across. It's the mass public portrayal, and what that portrayal will do for widespread perception of an intimate part of their life, that has people up in arms. Not so much that it's making buttloads of money despite its poor quality, but because it will likely be the first, and possibly only, introduction for a great many people into the BDSM world.

Could it be that, or perhaps something analogous to the "geeks" trying to sit at the "cool" people's table? Perhaps a better analogy would be the "socially accepted" nillas trying to sit at the "outcast's" table and trying to be one of them when they are not?

TheGlyphstone

Quote from: la dame en noir on February 12, 2015, 11:27:16 PM
Just like how people look at the media and scream "black people are animals, educated, loud, and stupid"? unfortunately a lot of people believe that. But yeah I guess we agree, I can't really comprehend because I'm kind of mind effed at the moment.

Yeah, exactly. I think we're on the same wavelength, at least, just parallel trains of thought.

Quote from: TaintedAndDelish on February 12, 2015, 11:28:04 PM
Could it be that, or perhaps something analogous to the "geeks" trying to sit at the "cool" people's table? Perhaps a better analogy would be the "socially accepted" nillas trying to sit at the "outcast's" table and trying to be one of them when they are not?


Hm. That might be a contributing factor as well.

consortium11

Quote from: TaintedAndDelish on February 12, 2015, 09:43:05 PM
I want to play devil's advocate for one moment to deepen the discussion. My intention is not to drop flame bait but to expose something that I think is being overlooked.

Could there be a smidgen of the "No True Scotsman" fallacy in some of the criticism about the relationship and alleged "kink" in this book? I keep hearing that it is not X, and not Y, but who really defines whether or not it's "true kink", or a "proper Ds relationship" or whatever. I know it has been pointed out quite clearly that there are things about the relationship in the story are are nothing more than abuse masquerading as BDSM and I won't argue with that point, but for me, I did not start any of my relationships out by looking a set of guidelines and checking to make sure that I was "doing it right". Likewise, for my own personal kinks, they are based on what pleases me, not on what the "kink community" (whoever these mysterious folks are) approves of.

As far as I'm aware no-one's really objected to the kinks themselves within 50 Shades. Truth be told there's little enough to object to there... for all the hype most of the ā€œkinkā€ tends to be little more than oral followed by vaginal sex with the closest nod to BDSM being someone getting tied down from time to time. You could read far more racy stuff in virtually any erotic novel and see more racy stuff in an episode of Spartacus.

What people object to about it (as well as the poor writing) is the fact that it's portraying an abusive relationship... and one that's abusive regardless of whether it's a BDSM or vanilla one. Worse, that it's portraying an abusive relationship as a romantic one with the abuser seen as a romantic icon and his methods of abuse frequently being presented as a show of how much he loves about the person he abuses. Over the course of the book Christian repeatedly stalks Ana (both by physically following her and keeping track using technological means), manipulates her, consider her his property, isolates her from her friends and peers, rapes her and does a whole load of things that if they occurred in real life we'd point to as tell-tale acts of an abuser. If we believe that people who read the book (or watch the film) are unable to separate fact from fiction and fantasy from reality (which I don't) then we may think that people will see such acts as being part of a healthy, loving relationship. Clearly they're not.

The only time when the abuse and the kinks really interlink is when it comes to spanking. But even then spanking isn't presented as an enjoyable kink within 50 Shades; Ana hates it and hates the pain. It's presented as a punishment, in it's own way little different to Christian simply punching her in the face for displeasing him. She does something he doesn't like, he punishes her by causing her pain. I don't think that counts as BDSM and it's certainly not a healthy way to run a BDSM relationship; while ā€œpunishmentā€ spankings can (and are) be used they are done with the subs permission and they can stop them at any time.

It's also worth noting with a BDSM relationship that you do sort of have to look at the guidelines and make sure you're doing it right. While it's unlikely that anyone is going to object to a playful spank on the ass even in a completely vanilla relationship if you don't bother with informed consent, safewords etc then giving someone a serious spanking is likely assault, tying them up is likely kidnap and having sex while they say ā€œnoā€ is pretty much certainly rape.

At the same time though, I would note that there is a kink-shaming element to the criticism. Let's remember, 50 Shades wasn't conceived or written as a "how to" guide for BDSM or as an accurate depiction of the lifestyle. It's EL James' fantasy, originally written as Twilight fan-fiction and posted on fan-fiction sites before the content required it to be posted elsewhere. When we say it's depicting a harmful relationship we're right... but how many stories on E also depict harmful, abusive relationships? One should always remember that despite the success, despite the billboard adverts and despite the film we're still discussing EL James' fantasy, something she originally started writing not for profit but because she enjoyed and fantasised about it. If we want to condemn her for having those fantasies we also have to condemn everyone on E who has similar ones.

Quote from: deadmanshand on February 12, 2015, 10:12:33 PM
Right. The kink is there to mask the abuse and make it romantic using the public's misunderstanding of the lifestyle invoked. That's all.

I'm not sure that's the case... many of the issues with Christian and Ana's relationship are pretty much identical to the issues with Rhett and Scarlet's relationship in Gone with the Wind, right down to both containing a "yes, she said no and it's rape but she she actually wanted it and really enjoyed it so it isn't really that bad right?" scene. Yet much like Christian (in fact, arguably more so), Rhett Butler is seen as one of the great romantic figures and there's little kink to hide behind in Gone with the Wind.

I think at the end of the day it goes back to  la dame en noir's point about why people connect and like this work. And if one glances through the history of romance novels... especially trashy ones... one frequently finds the male romantic interest being a dominant (in the non-kinky sense) "alpha" man who knows what he wants and takes it... despite frequently stepping over the line of what is considered acceptable in real life. I've already mentioned 50 Shades and GwtW but one could equally look to pretty much anything Jilly Cooper has ever written, notably in the character Rupert Campbell-Black. One could even point to Mr Darcy (let alone the likes of John Willoughby or George Wickham, even though he softens significantly by the end. Or, frankly, pretty much anything that could be classified as a "bodice ripper".

50 Shades basically just played that up with the additional "thrill" of the sex scenes being openly described rather than fading to black.

Quote from: TheGlyphstone on February 12, 2015, 11:15:04 PM
Also, I'd imagine there is a sort of...I'm not really sure how to express it in words here....a sort of projective concern that accounts for a portion of the kink/BDSM community's dislike of the book? Like those Munch clubs planning to picket FSoG theaters with pamphlets about what the BDSM lifestyle actually entails - people who enjoy BDSM already exist on the fringe of cultural acceptance, half-understood by society at large. So having something that so grossly mis-represents a part of themselves/their own lifestyle that they consider to be very important become so popular is harmful to them/their self-image/their image to a greater public who already has negative preconceptions about them? Like if someone published a bestselling true crime novel where the police officer protagonists were all ethnic slur-spewing, donut-eating, power-hungry sadistic thugs, and this was glorified in-book to be the 'correct' way to be a police officer; you can easily imagine how popular such a novel would be amongst actual police officers. Or, if you'd prefer an example less politically charged, a best-selling war modern war novel about a group of American soldiers who were all racist gung-ho sociopaths that enjoyed nothing better than spending a relaxing Saturday night committing war crimes on foreign civilians, and how popular that would be amongst serving or retired military. Okay, so maybe that wasn't much less politically charged, but I can't think of an example that doesn't get what I am trying to say across.

...does that make any sense?

I agree with the first part; for understandable reasons the BDSM community is often pretty protective of itself and how its portrayed by those outside it. Once people started pointing out the abusive elements of 50 Shades it was pretty much only a matter of time before people started shouting back that it didn't portray a realistic BDSM relationship and that BDSM wasn't really like that.

On the soldiers point though... from what I understand Generation Kill (both the book and TV series) were pretty well received by soldiers (and eventually became encouraged reading) despite showing many of the protagonists as racist, gung-ho sociopaths who are more than happy to commit war crimes (and then joke about them afterwards).

la dame en noir

QuoteAt the same time though, I would note that there is a kink-shaming element to the criticism. Let's remember, 50 Shades wasn't conceived or written as a "how to" guide for BDSM or as an accurate depiction of the lifestyle. It's EL James' fantasy, originally written as Twilight fan-fiction and posted on fan-fiction sites before the content required it to be posted elsewhere. When we say it's depicting a harmful relationship we're right... but how many stories on E also depict harmful, abusive relationships? One should always remember that despite the success, despite the billboard adverts and despite the film we're still discussing EL James' fantasy, something she originally started writing not for profit but because she enjoyed and fantasised about it. If we want to condemn her for having those fantasies we also have to condemn everyone on E who has similar ones.

This right here means everything
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Valthazar

Quote from: consortium11 on February 13, 2015, 07:31:45 AMIf we want to condemn her for having those fantasies we also have to condemn everyone on E who has similar ones.
Quote from: la dame en noir on February 12, 2015, 11:21:03 PMCan we judge the same people who desire to roleplay things such as an abuse controlling relationship?

+1

I think expressing anger and hostility towards 50 Shades rather ironic, given that I'm sure most of us would be supportive if a member here wanted to publish an NC, abusive romance story involving a vulnerable female character.  People would be quick to point out that it's "just a fantasy" and perfectly healthy to read as such.  As such, I don't see why E. L. James has any obligation to portray only healthy D/s and BDSM relationships in her stories.

deadmanshand

And once again the logical fallacy comes up of comparing stories written on a members only website between adults to a mainstream book/movie series that anyone has access to. The argument is flawed. Writing something for personal entertainment is fine. If EL James had kept it as such their would be no issue but the moment it is marketed to the masses as a "bdsm romance" it becomes a different beast alltogether. At that point you are projecting an image for the world to see and personal respinsibility becomes a factor. Glorifying abuse and calling it love in such a cultural wide venue is irresponsible and objectionable. Doing that in a private story on a members only website is a shrug. We all understand the context. The average fan will not. Worlds of difference.

consortium11

#103
So I assume we're all ready to condemn the authors on Literotica, BDSMLibrary, Lushstories, MCStories, Understories, Boundstories etc etc who write stories that include abuse? After all, those websites don't even have the figleaf of membership requirements that E has... anyone can visit them. And unlike having to buy 50 Shades of Grey, those websites are all free to access so even less restricted.

Edit: Just to add, are we also meant to exclude the fact that 50 Shades explicitly tells people that it's not meant to be realistic and any resemblance to reality is merely a coincidence:

QuoteThis is a work of fiction. Names, characters, businesses, places, events and incidents are either the products of the authorā€™s imagination or used in a fictitious manner. Any resemblance to actual persons, living or dead, or actual events is purely coincidental.

Valthazar

Quote from: deadmanshand on February 13, 2015, 08:40:09 AMAnd once again the logical fallacy comes up of comparing stories written on a members only website between adults to a mainstream book/movie series that anyone has access to. The argument is flawed. Writing something for personal entertainment is fine. If EL James had kept it as such their would be no issue but the moment it is marketed to the masses as a "bdsm romance" it becomes a different beast alltogether.

To clarify, I was referring to a situation where an E member chooses to actually publish an abuse-themed story in print.  I would wager to bet that most members of E would be very supportive of this individual's work, because from my understanding of the culture here, having deviant sexual fantasies is celebrated as perfectly healthy (yes, including abuse) - so long as it doesn't manifest into physical action.  And from other threads on the subject, the consensus seems to be that a sexual fantasy writer should never be "blamed" because a sick individual reading the story chose to engage in that illegal act in real life. 

It is also worth noting that 50 Shades is only receiving such vitriol because of its success - though it is by no means the only fictional story to explore manipulation and abuse within the context of a "love" story.  I just randomly searched Amazon for the first questionable book I could find.  Would you criticize this book about a mother/son incest, for its unhealthy depiction of parent/child interactions?

deadmanshand

Wow... you've never met a logical fallacy you didn't like did you? Once again it's all about context and personal responsibility. If you go Literotica or the Kristen Archives or any such thing you are doing so knowing what you are getting into. The websites have warnings and the stories have descriptors telling what is in them. There is no misinformation or misrepresentation to it. They are what they are and by the time you read a story there you know what you are getting into.

This, allow me to prove once again, is not the same as mass marketing something as a romantic ideal and delivering an abusive relationship in glorified manner. Writing such a thing here or on one of those sites is just a matter of catharsis. Writing such a thing and then misrepresenting itself to everyone as something it most certainly is not just a matter of catharsis. You are putting it in a mass setting where people are not aware of the context and may touch on very sensitive issues for them will see it believing it to be something it's not.

The issue is not the nature of the content but the context of it. It is dishonest about it's nature. It does not give an opportunity for informed consent to the nature of the experience of the story. It misleads, misrepresents, and falsifies. It glorifies what should never be glorified to the public and calls it romance.

And I am now done arguing with people about this fucking book because I did not make this thread to argue for or against it's merits. Frankly I am upset that people have chosen to use it as such rather than making their own thread to put up their strawman arguments or play devil's advocate. I do not like discussing the book series. I made the original post as a reaction - a vindication if you will - after long years of being forced to have arguments about the book series with people who cannot simply accept the fact that I find them to be tasteless trash. I figured that here of all places I might be able to make a comment on it without someone rushing to defend it. A single lighthearted comment made in a moment of satisfaction leading to multiple  pointless arguments over a trashy piece of romance novel drivel that I will only remember in ten years because of how badly it's fans have pissed me off. So thank you for that.

And no I did not react to the arguments based off of my "hatred" for the books. I did so out of my hatred for logical fallacies. It was intellectual offense. I'm done with this thread. Thanks for taking what should have been a lighthearted thread while I am going through a very stressful time in my life and turning it into a revolving door of arguments and frustration.

Avis habilis

Quote from: deadmanshand on February 13, 2015, 09:32:40 AM
Wow... you've never met a logical fallacy you didn't like did you?

Apparently we have to spell this out again: no ad hominem attacks, not from anybody, not for any excuse.

Knock it off.


Beguile's Mistress

#108
I met a friend for coffee after work last night and we overheard a conversation between two older women in the coffee shop who compared "50 Shades..." to "Peyton Place" back in the day.  That was considered the most scandalous book of its time when it came out in the mid-1950s.  One woman said her mother had brought it home and hid it from her father.  He found it and there as a tremendous row over her reading it.  The woman's older sister found it when she was in high school and she and the mom fought about it but then settled down and discussed some of what happened in the book.  Some time in the 80s the woman read it and wondered what all the fuss was about.

Now I want to find the book and read it and I'd love it if someone taking a degree in literature would use the two books for their Master's thesis. 

BTW - Here is a link to a fairly objective review I found of the movie with some comparisons to the book.

Deamonbane

Anyone else feel a (probably) unintentional link between Christian Grey and Patrick Bateman?(American Psycho) That was the first thing that I thought when I was five chapters in. Although Christian Bale sold it better.
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RedPhoenix

Quote from: Deamonbane on February 13, 2015, 10:32:00 AM
Anyone else feel a (probably) unintentional link between Christian Grey and Patrick Bateman?(American Psycho) That was the first thing that I thought when I was five chapters in. Although Christian Bale sold it better.

They're basically the same person based on the same idea of what rich people can do so it's not hard to see.
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Deamonbane

I kept getting the feeling that he would leave Steele alone for a few minutes and come in screaming, butt-nekkid and wielding a chain saw...
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Inkidu

My main problem isn't the portrayal of the BDSM community and whatnot. I'm just not in the scene to really judge. I've only heard what those in the scene think of it.

Again, my main problem is that it is by all accounts across multiple spectra of criticism it's regarded as a poorly written work with few redeeming qualities. Not even taking into account that it's smut. Though I think it's the first time I can remember "erotica" being on the NYTBSL, let alone the top of it. Hey, if someone can write the seminal erotica work that's fine, but this book shouldn't be 50 Shades.

It really upsets the writer in me who while doesn't exactly "suffer" over his art but really just gives a damn that something like this can sell millions of copies. It's enough to make me go all Fahrenheit 451 on all the things.

I mean there's the if-Twilight-can-get-published joke, but at least that was fruit born of an author's mind (as much as can be said for any work), but Fifty Shades is a poorly written fan-fic where she just filed the serial numbers off. It just lacks care and drive, but the world holds it up as blaring masterpiece, and it's not even good enough to be a Harlequin romance!

*Pants*
If you're searching the lines for a point, well you've probably missed it; there was never anything there in the first place.

Deamonbane

Quote from: Inkidu on February 13, 2015, 10:49:46 AM
My main problem isn't the portrayal of the BDSM community and whatnot. I'm just not in the scene to really judge. I've only heard what those in the scene think of it.

Again, my main problem is that it is by all accounts across multiple spectra of criticism it's regarded as a poorly written work with few redeeming qualities. Not even taking into account that it's smut. Though I think it's the first time I can remember "erotica" being on the NYTBSL, let alone the top of it. Hey, if someone can write the seminal erotica work that's fine, but this book shouldn't be 50 Shades.

It really upsets the writer in me who while doesn't exactly "suffer" over his art but really just gives a damn that something like this can sell millions of copies. It's enough to make me go all Fahrenheit 451 on all the things.

I mean there's the if-Twilight-can-get-published joke, but at least that was fruit born of an author's mind (as much as can be said for any work), but Fifty Shades is a poorly written fan-fic where she just filed the serial numbers off. It just lacks care and drive, but the world holds it up as blaring masterpiece, and it's not even good enough to be a Harlequin romance!

*Pants*
+10000
Angry Sex: Because it's Impolite to say," You pissed me off so much I wanna fuck your brains out..."

Beguile's Mistress

The operative word for the NYTBSL is seller.  You get on the list when your book sells more copies this month than anyone else on the list.  Word of mouth goes a long way to promote those books quite often as does the name of the author.  I usually only look at the list to get a feel for what everyone else is reading because that is what they are going to be talking about.

Inkidu

Quote from: Beguile's Mistress on February 13, 2015, 11:00:03 AM
The operative word for the NYTBSL is seller.  You get on the list when your book sells more copies this month than anyone else on the list.  Word of mouth goes a long way to promote those books quite often as does the name of the author.  I usually only look at the list to get a feel for what everyone else is reading because that is what they are going to be talking about.
My point being it says something very soul-crushing about the state of readership in today's world. :(

Then you see really good, accessible, hell just even good entertaining books you can't give away. :|
If you're searching the lines for a point, well you've probably missed it; there was never anything there in the first place.

Beguile's Mistress

*nods*  Electronic media is responsible, in part, for a lot of that and online book sellers.  It's made reading easier and less expensive for many but the quality of the books is diminishing.  Then again, so is the quality of the writing.  It's a vicious circle.

RedPhoenix

Quote from: Inkidu on February 13, 2015, 11:04:19 AM
My point being it says something very soul-crushing about the state of readership in today's world. :(

Then you see really good, accessible, hell just even good entertaining books you can't give away. :|

Probably the same way most musicians feel when they turn on the radio.
Apologies & Absences | Ons & Offs
I move the stars for no one.

Cycle

To consortium11, la dame en noir, and Valthazar:

I don't think you can compare 50SoG in its current incarnation with a rape-abuse RP written on E.  There are at least four key differences:

  • Because of the screening process, the average E member very likely has a far better understanding of bondage, D/s, and the distinction between reality and fantasy than the average general public. 

  • RPs written on E are generally intended for a single reader (your partner) or a small group of readers (for group games).  Yes, other E members can read them, but in an RP, they are not the target audience.  And odds are, that audience knows what you are writing together is a fantasy, and enjoys said fantasy with a proper frame of mind.

  • E contains explicit disclaimers that far more clear than routine, standard canned "this is fictional" copy paste jobs you see on mass marketed books.  Float your mouse over any heading.  You'll get a warning of what kinds of stories are in that group.  You're not going to see a sticker on the cover page of 50SoG that says:  "This book depicts an abusive rape relationship that is not healthy," "Please do not emulate what you read in this book," or "If anyone treats you like Grey does in this book, call 911 immediately."

  • E is moderated.  If you try to write an abusive-rape story in Light, one of the Staff will surely PM you with a reminder/warning, and move your story out of that area.  In other words, you can't sell an abusive-rape relationship as romance on E and get away with it.
Simply put, RPs written on E have to state what they are far more clearly, and read by a more sophisticated--and less vulnerable, less easily mislead--population, than a book sold by Amazon.  Trying to use E's RPs as a defense of 50SoG is, in my opinion, a flawed approach.

The author of 50SoG, and the marketing forces working with her/taking advantage of her/riding her coattails, clearly want the abusive relationship to be perceived as romance.  Sure, they'll say the right things on TV during interviews.  But their intent is revealed by their actions.  Hence my disdain for this book and what it has now evolved into.


Bloodied Porcelain

Quote from: Cycle on February 13, 2015, 11:54:42 AM
To consortium11, la dame en noir, and Valthazar:

I don't think you can compare 50SoG in its current incarnation with a rape-abuse RP written on E.  There are at least four key differences:

  • Because of the screening process, the average E member very likely has a far better understanding of bondage, D/s, and the distinction between reality and fantasy than the average general public. 

  • RPs written on E are generally intended for a single reader (your partner) or a small group of readers (for group games).  Yes, other E members can read them, but in an RP, they are not the target audience.  And odds are, that audience knows what you are writing together is a fantasy, and enjoys said fantasy with a proper frame of mind.

  • E contains explicit disclaimers that far more clear than routine, standard canned "this is fictional" copy paste jobs you see on mass marketed books.  Float your mouse over any heading.  You'll get a warning of what kinds of stories are in that group.  You're not going to see a sticker on the cover page of 50SoG that says:  "This book depicts an abusive rape relationship that is not healthy," "Please do not emulate what you read in this book," or "If anyone treats you like Grey does in this book, call 911 immediately."

  • E is moderated.  If you try to write an abusive-rape story in Light, one of the Staff will surely PM you with a reminder/warning, and move your story out of that area.  In other words, you can't sell an abusive-rape relationship as romance on E and get away with it.
Simply put, RPs written on E have to state what they are far more clearly, and read by a more sophisticated--and less vulnerable, less easily mislead--population, than a book sold by Amazon.  Trying to use E's RPs as a defense of 50SoG is, in my opinion, a flawed approach.

The author of 50SoG, and the marketing forces working with her/taking advantage of her/riding her coattails, clearly want the abusive relationship to be perceived as romance.  Sure, they'll say the right things on TV during interviews.  But their intent is revealed by their actions.  Hence my disdain for this book and what it has now evolved into.

^^^^ All of this ^^^^

Even my individual threads tend to come with disclaimers specific to the story, basically pointing out that what is being depicted is (and is meant to be) abuse, that I do not advocate for it, etc etc.

Also, since the release of the god-awful first book, I've met more weak-minded would-be subs/slaves who are trying to get in to the lifestyle and are taking 50SoG as the gospel on what they should be looking for. I had one woman who had only been involved in the lifestyle for about five or six months and whom was in an abusive relationship (something I pulled her aside to try to talk to her about by asking if she was sure she was okay and if she needed help... I've been there, no one should be facing that alone) who told me that I was the "wrong" one because I thought she had a right and a duty to stand up for herself when he took things too far.

Two months later, she was out of the lifestyle, swearing we were all "fucked up freaks" and claiming that BDSM is really just dressed-up rape because he'd finally pushed her too far. She nearly tore apart more than one circle of friends in the local community over the entire thing, claiming that most of the subs and slaves she was friends with pushed her to stay with him while he was hurting her, when more than one of us tried to convince her to leave him and find someone worthy of her submission.

I've seen more subs (men and women, but mostly women) enter the lifestyle thinking that they want what is in these books. They're wrong. They don't want it. They're deluded because the book describes it as a good thing and a "right" thing and it's just plain not when you're living something even remotely similar. Christian Grey is NOT the perfect man. He's not even the perfect Master or Dom. He's the exact fucking opposite and the fact that this trilogy is out there scares the hell out of me, because my head spins with the number of well-meaning fools who try to use the book's example to build their relationships (and heaven forbid their marriages) around. The number of victims of sexual and domestic abuse the books could be creating is terrifying. Imagine a girl just out of high school with limited to no sexual experience getting hold of this and deciding that she wants a boyfriend like Christian.

Or hell, beyond that imagine someone who already has a chip on their shoulder about anything outside of vanilla sex getting hold of the book and using it to further vilify those in the lifestyle who already deal with social stigma and judgment from those around us who find out. It's bothersome enough that I have to hide the fact that I'm a submissive woman when I'm living my day-to-day. Not because I want to be lead around on a leash in public, but because anyone who looks at me and sees me allowing my partner to make the decisions and deferring to His/Her judgment or calling Him/Her Sir or Ma'am looks down their nose at me and thinks of me as "lesser" because I'm not some ice-queen powerful woman who does anything and everything for myself and is take-no-prisoners. Now I not only get to feel self conscious over how I express my love and trust of my partner in simple ways, I get to worry about whether or not someone is going to wave this trash in my face and call me Anastasia, accuse me of perpetuating harm against women, etc etc.
I want no ordinary lover. I want a storm. I want sleepless nights and endless conversations at four a.m. I want passion, I want madness.
I want someone who's able to make my whole body shiver from a distance and also pull me close to make sense of all my bones.

~ Bizarre, Beautiful, And Breathtaking ~
~ O/O ~ Seeking ~ A/A ~ Mirrors and Masks ~ Poetry ~
She walked with the universe on her shoulders and made it look like wings.

Mithlomwen

Quote from: Inkidu on February 13, 2015, 10:49:46 AM
My main problem isn't the portrayal of the BDSM community and whatnot. I'm just not in the scene to really judge. I've only heard what those in the scene think of it.

Again, my main problem is that it is by all accounts across multiple spectra of criticism it's regarded as a poorly written work with few redeeming qualities. Not even taking into account that it's smut. Though I think it's the first time I can remember "erotica" being on the NYTBSL, let alone the top of it. Hey, if someone can write the seminal erotica work that's fine, but this book shouldn't be 50 Shades.

It really upsets the writer in me who while doesn't exactly "suffer" over his art but really just gives a damn that something like this can sell millions of copies. It's enough to make me go all Fahrenheit 451 on all the things.

I mean there's the if-Twilight-can-get-published joke, but at least that was fruit born of an author's mind (as much as can be said for any work), but Fifty Shades is a poorly written fan-fic where she just filed the serial numbers off. It just lacks care and drive, but the world holds it up as blaring masterpiece, and it's not even good enough to be a Harlequin romance!

*Pants*

This.  This.....thisthisthis.

Also....

Yes to what both Cycle and Bloodied Porcelain said. 
Baby, it's all I know,
that your half of the flesh and blood that makes me whole...

Iniquitous

Quote from: Deamonbane on February 13, 2015, 10:35:41 AM
I kept getting the feeling that he would leave Steele alone for a few minutes and come in screaming, butt-nekkid and wielding a chain saw...

I will learn not to drink and read at the same time. Oh my gods this made me laugh. And honestly - if he had done this it would have been a much better book!
Bow to the Queen; I'm the Alpha, the Omega, everything in between.


Beguile's Mistress

Having worked with a therapist during a crisis period in my own life and assisted her with role playing for her D/s couples sessions after she saw me through to being healed I'd like to say there is very little on Elliquiy that is objectively representative of real life BDSM.  First remove everything that draws blood or leaves a permanent mark.  Remove role playing sessions in the story that go beyond a limited amount of time and remove all coercive influences to create fear as a motivating factor.  Most assuredly, removed all stories where no safe word is discussed and obeyed and you have very little left.  To think anything outside the box is less than fantasy teaches the wrong lesson. 

Both D/s and BDSM structured scenarios are designed to promote trust in the Dom on the part of the submissive.  Boundaries can be tested and pushed, of course.  Fear should only enter into things when the submissive wishes to stretch those boundaries with the assistance of their Dom and mutual respect of each other and their wishes is necessary.  People who harbor destructive or self-destructive tendencies need to be very careful of these relationships.

Valthazar

Quote from: Cycle on February 13, 2015, 11:54:42 AMBecause of the screening process, the average E member very likely has a far better understanding of bondage, D/s, and the distinction between reality and fantasy than the average general public.

I don't think this is accurate.  As far as I know, there is no screening process ensures that the average E member has a better understanding of D/s or bondage compared to the average public (other than being asked to obey the E rules, of course)

As someone who actually does explore D/s in romance stories, it's almost painful to read what passes for dominance at times on E.  A lot of writers exploring romance with dominance often completely disregard the emotional angle of D/s.  You'd be surprised how many so-called "Doms" on E think a few slaps on the ass suddenly give them permission to 'boss around' the female character in a roleplay.  And sadly, many subs come to think this is the norm.


Lilias

When the trilogy was everywhere and our local bookstore had built an elaborate shrine display for it, I was tempted to leave notes with E's url under the books every time I passed by. Honest.
To go in the dark with a light is to know the light.
To know the dark, go dark. Go without sight,
and find that the dark, too, blooms and sings,
and is traveled by dark feet and dark wings.
~Wendell Berry

Double Os <> Double As (updated Feb 20) <> The Hoard <> 50 Tales 2024 <> The Lab <> ELLUIKI

RedPhoenix

Quote from: Lilias on February 13, 2015, 01:52:40 PM
When the trilogy was everywhere and our local bookstore had built an elaborate shrine display for it, I was tempted to leave notes with E's url under the books every time I passed by. Honest.
That's a pretty fun idea. :D
Apologies & Absences | Ons & Offs
I move the stars for no one.

Oniya

Quote from: Lilias on February 13, 2015, 01:52:40 PM
When the trilogy was everywhere and our local bookstore had built an elaborate shrine display for it, I was tempted to leave notes with E's url under the books every time I passed by. Honest.

'Better writing.  Better sex.  For free.  Elliquiy.com.'
"Language was invented for one reason, boys - to woo women.~*~*~Don't think it's all been done before
And in that endeavor, laziness will not do." ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think we're never gonna win this war
Robin Williams-Dead Poets Society ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think your world's gonna fall apart
I do have a cause, though.  It's obscenity.  I'm for it.  - Tom Lehrer~*~All you need is your beautiful heart
O/O's Updated 5/11/21 - A/A's - Current Status! - Writing a novel - all draws for Fool of Fire up!
Requests updated March 17

Nachtmahr

Quote from: Thesunmaid on February 12, 2015, 12:42:29 PM
Like twilight...which apparently I am supposed to be all over because I own a uterus.

Can I just take a brief moment to point out just how brilliant this sounds? x) 'I own a uterus' is just.. It sort of sounds like you can get them in any general appliance story! xD

Anyways, I'm just going to be 'that person' who has nothing new and interesting to bring to the table, and just say that 50 Shades can go stick itself in a place where the sun doesn't shine and no one will ever find it. It's sort of funny how this book as suddenly changed how people react when I express my personal interest in BDSM: Now people who would have otherwise been offended by this pretend they 'understand' and often even try to contribute to the conversation by saying things that now leave me as puzzled and confounded as they once were. Apparently bondage is now all about rape-fantasies and S&M is all about people who dream about getting beaten up at random - What the hell? For the first time even I kind of wish people would just go back to being prejudiced morons rather than misinformed morons!

And like many others have already said, the quality alone is.. I mean, from all that I've read of it, it's painfully mediocre at it's best. It's not bad enough to be unintentionally funny, it's not good enough to ever really be interesting. It's just.. There! It's as middle of the line as it gets!

An overly simple and bland story based on an already fairly common fantasy, written by an author who didn't bother to do any meaningful research into the source material other than perhaps go through XHamsters top-3 BDSM videos. The sex is dry and uninspired and anything outside of that keeps walking on the border between 'Dull' and 'Mildly disturbing'. It even to some extend portrays actual BDSM enthusiasts as being unsympathetic, cruel men focusing entirely on their own desires, or overly submissive women, both during sex and in general.

Like I said: I have nothing new to add. Just feels good to get this off my chest. ^.^
~Await the Dawn With Her Kiss of Redemption, My Firebird!~
~You Were the Queen of the Souls of Man Before There Was the Word~

la dame en noir

There was also a disclaimer in the book that someone here shared. We want to warn people before they read or engage in something that can or is extreme. This does not mean I condone abuse in real life or in form and I'm not sure why so many seem to think this is how I'm acting. From what I can tell people are mad at the book because it's being sold to the masses, not because of whats inside. Players on here can think of far worse things and no one would get so up in the air because we're all supposed to know better right?

I do not live an abusive life with my boyfriend and I do not want to. But when I come to E, I play out awful desires...does this mean I'm just as bad as the woman who wrote the book?

I just don't get it.
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Nachtmahr

Quote from: la dame en noir on February 13, 2015, 03:55:36 PM
There was also a disclaimer in the book that someone here shared. We want to warn people before they read or engage in something that can or is extreme. This does not mean I condone abuse in real life or in form and I'm not sure why so many seem to think this is how I'm acting. From what I can tell people are mad at the book because it's being sold to the masses, not because of whats inside. Players on here can think of far worse things and no one would get so up in the air because we're all supposed to know better right?

I do not live an abusive life with my boyfriend and I do not want to. But when I come to E, I play out awful desires...does this mean I'm just as bad as the woman who wrote the book?

I just don't get it.

Well, it's not so much the fact that she wrote stuff like that - Most of us here are likely guilty of writing stuff that would be considered (if not illegal) morally/ethically questionable. The thing is: When I play a story in which I write about an abusive Dom in a BDSM relationship I don't actually try to give people the idea that this is how people who engage in the sexual practices I describe willingly live their life. I don't depict people who participate in BDSM as being generally abusive.

She should do a better job of pointing out that she is basing the characters on nothing rather than give it this weird air of believability to the general 'The missionary position is just fine!'-public. Our threads here on E aren't open to the general public, and we're not a big enough outlet for anything we write to really be representing any specific group - But this book is a bestseller! People buy into the fiction. It's like 4Chan but in real life - If someone says that humans are not really supposed to be breathing, it's just a lie from the government, 3/10 readers are going to start holding their breath.

BDSM enthusiasts suddenly face a vocal minority of people who think they know what they're talking about based on a work of fiction written by someone who has fantasized about the most basic concepts of the art mixed with various common rape-fantasies.

I'll defend this books right to be published to the ends of the earth - But I'll also defend all the justified hate.
~Await the Dawn With Her Kiss of Redemption, My Firebird!~
~You Were the Queen of the Souls of Man Before There Was the Word~

la dame en noir

#131
I have a few friends that hate the books and I don't try to make them like it. They have their reasons and I understand why. But what I don't get is that there is hate coming from a few people towards those that are just pointing out things like 50 shades. Whether its teenage sex and romance geared at adults, Spartacus, 300, and Game of Thrones. We can't assume everyone will know the difference between fantasy and real life, but we can sure hope that they're smart enough.

Its like when people find some reason to blame video games or music for the reason someone decided to go on a murdering rampage and that these types of media forces audiences to bend at their will. If this was the case, we would all be insane.

I was in love with American Psycho and I love Christian Bale's character - does that make me crave abuse?

And I think a few have ignored that I have publicly announced that I have been in the community ACTIVELY for years now. I have had the D/s relationship and some of the doms that wanted to work with me had a different agenda. Some are abusive and some want to control everything. And then there are those that understand that submissives have a say in everything and have the ability to leave.

BDSM does not equal a possible abusive relationship. An abusive relationship starts with an abusive person. But since such a risky subculture was linked, now everyone wants to get upset and trust me I get why.
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Bloodied Porcelain

Something else to keep in mind is that if you completely strip away the BDSM aspect of the books... completely and totally ignore that part and just focus on the bits that could happen in any vanilla relationship... it's still fucking abuse. He stalks her. He buys her an expensive first edition print of a classic book, but then the note he writes to her is a line where the main character of the book is talking about being raped by her stalker.

And then it gets passed off as romantic.

And people get all fluttery and swoony and "I wish my man were like that".

No. You don't. You'd be calling the cops trying to report him for stalking and threatening behavior.
I want no ordinary lover. I want a storm. I want sleepless nights and endless conversations at four a.m. I want passion, I want madness.
I want someone who's able to make my whole body shiver from a distance and also pull me close to make sense of all my bones.

~ Bizarre, Beautiful, And Breathtaking ~
~ O/O ~ Seeking ~ A/A ~ Mirrors and Masks ~ Poetry ~
She walked with the universe on her shoulders and made it look like wings.

Valthazar

To me, the real cause for concern is why some people (women) are finding the themes in this book to be alluring in a romantic and desirable way.  Not the issue of 50 Shades itself - because if everyone's sense of romance mirrored our own, then 50 Shades would not have attained such mainstream appeal.

Clearly the average public's sense of romance evolved in an unhealthy way prior to 50 Shades' release.  50 Shades simply tapped into that market - and capitalized on it.

la dame en noir

Yes - it is abuse and I admit that. But someone you throw in a sexual element and it becomes alluring. There are times when I want a big powerful man to cave-man me(a term I randomly generated in my head). But I know that is not something that is normal and people should engage in.

I forgot who posted this but I want to say that E is not the only source for erotica/bdsm/extreme etc. This just seems to be the only site that has you go through a process before you're allowed to fully access anything. So people could already be looking for these kinds of things before 50 shades was even made popular.
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Nachtmahr

Quote from: la dame en noir on February 13, 2015, 04:13:07 PM
I have a few friends that hate the books and I don't try to make them like it. They have their reasons and I understand why. But what I don't get is that there is hate coming from a few people towards those that are just pointing out things like 50 shades. Whether its teenage sex and romance geared at adults, Spartacus, 300, and Game of Thrones. We can't assume everyone will know the difference between fantasy and real life, but we can sure hope that they're smart enough.

Its like when people find some reason to blame video games or music for the reason someone decided to go on a murdering rampage and that these types of media forces audiences to bend at their will. If this was the case, we would all be insane.

I was in love with American Psycho and I love Christian Bale's character - does that make me crave abuse?

And I think a few have ignored that I have publicly announced that I have been in the community ACTIVELY for years now. I have had the D/s relationship and some of the doms that wanted to work with me had a different agenda. Some are abusive and some want to control everything. And then there are those that understand that submissives have a say in everything and have the ability to leave.

BDSM does not equal a possible abusive relationship. An abusive relationship starts with an abusive person. But since such a risky scene and linked, now everyone wants to get upset and trust me I get why.

I crave violence - It's a fantasy, and I play a lot of video games to satisfy these tendencies. Would I ever dream of committing to a violent act? No! Hell no!

Do you crave abuse? Maybe you do - But not actual abuse, but the flirtatious idea/fantasy of it. You don't have to want to get hurt to think about it. Most people like fantasizing about things that they'd never commit to in real life. We get cravings to write/watch/talk about such things to satisfy our curiosity in a safe manner.

However, when you watch Batman or play Mass Effect you're constantly aware that this doesn't portray the real world, and when people here write stories they know this as well. But with a book like this there will always be a vocal minority of misinformed people who think this is a thing, and people who think stalking is a very intense way of flirting. Worse than this, there are women talking about stuff like this, publicly going into detail about how they would love a man like that - And there are plenty of psychos out there who will happily give them what they might have thought they wanted..

I guess I might be going too far, but.. Well, stories like that aren't exactly uncommon.
~Await the Dawn With Her Kiss of Redemption, My Firebird!~
~You Were the Queen of the Souls of Man Before There Was the Word~

la dame en noir

Just like apparently rape fantasies are the most common amongst women.

And can we talk about how abusive the relationship is between Harley Quinn and Joker? But everyone loves them!


I think the books are bad >.> But I read them because it humored me.
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Oniya

I'm just going to put it out there that I got disturbed by this sort of thing back with Twilight (a book without any sex at all) - not just because of the insane popularity of a book that a high-schooler could write, not because of the fact that it nerfed two of the most classic supernatural monsters, but the whole 'Edward/Jacob is sooooo dreamy!' thing.  That was a book written for and marketed to the impressionable young-adult market.  I actually sat down with the little Oni and explained to her why Edward was creepy as all hell, and what to do if a boy ever acted like that to her.  (She still hasn't read it, and shows no interest in it, but her classmates were all 'Team Edward 4 Life!' so I did that whole 'parenting thing.')

(With the Harley Quinn/Joker dynamic:  Yes, they are abusive and sometimes it goes both ways, but anyone with the slightest familiarity with those two knows that they have so many loose screws, they could open a hardware store.)
"Language was invented for one reason, boys - to woo women.~*~*~Don't think it's all been done before
And in that endeavor, laziness will not do." ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think we're never gonna win this war
Robin Williams-Dead Poets Society ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think your world's gonna fall apart
I do have a cause, though.  It's obscenity.  I'm for it.  - Tom Lehrer~*~All you need is your beautiful heart
O/O's Updated 5/11/21 - A/A's - Current Status! - Writing a novel - all draws for Fool of Fire up!
Requests updated March 17

Cycle

Quote from: la dame en noir on February 13, 2015, 03:55:36 PM
I'm not sure why so many seem to think this is how I'm acting.

I think I am noticing a pattern and correct me if I am wrong. 

To be clear:  le dame en noir, the criticism I (and probably others) have addressed toward 50SoG are not directed towards you.

As for the criticism itself, I thought I was clear.  It isn't about the author's right to write whatever fantasies she wishes to indulge in.  It is about her, and others, efforts to portray, convey, and sell the book as a romance--as something that is right, something that should be sought after, and something that people should allow to be done to themselves because it is "love." 

It isn't.

It's not love.

It's not romance.

No one should allow anyone to do such things to them under the guise of a loving or romantic relationship.

But someone will fall victim to a predator because of it.


Why the authors and merchants are marketing 50 SoG this way, and feeding the frenzy, is obvious: money.  Inexperienced and bored/lonely people are easy to exploit.  And that is what I see happening.  And that is what I find so distasteful.


la dame en noir

OH man the first time I read the book I pointed out all of its flaws and how crazy Christian was written. I know its not love. But I know its not my story either.

And I have to agree...Money is the driver here.
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Valthazar

Quote from: Cycle on February 13, 2015, 04:35:34 PMWhy the authors and merchants are marketing 50 SoG this way, and feeding the frenzy, is obvious: money.  Inexperienced and bored/lonely people are easy to exploit.  And that is what I see happening.  And that is what I find so distasteful.

What if there are genuinely people out there who are into the fantasy of romance that involves abuse?  Do we have the moral authority to tell them that it's not healthy to view romance as abusive? 

Obviously I think it's wrong but if it floats their boat, that's that.

RedPhoenix

Quote from: la dame en noir on February 13, 2015, 04:29:59 PM
And can we talk about how abusive the relationship is between Harley Quinn and Joker? But everyone loves them

I would happily talk all day about this much more interesting relationship. Biggest problem though is that it isn't consistent.
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Cycle

Quote from: Valthazar on February 13, 2015, 04:40:13 PM
What if there are genuinely people out there who are into the fantasy of romance that involves abuse?  Do we have the moral authority to tell them that it's not healthy to view romance as abusive? 

I highlighted the key word:  fantasy.

If a woman wants to enjoy a fantasy of being tied up and raped, I would not consider that morally wrong.

But if a woman tries to make money by hold up an image to people who crave love that to truly be loved--as in, no longer a fantasy but reality--you should allow yourself to be raped, beaten, and stalked, then yes, I do consider that morally wrong.


Valthazar

So would the solution be to censor 50 Shades?  Women who have a mature understanding of love should be able to enjoy the fantasy of romance with abuse if they so choose, so I do think the series has a niche (say among married women with dulling sex lives).

Inkidu

Quote from: Valthazar on February 13, 2015, 04:57:27 PM
So would the solution be to censor 50 Shades?  Women who have a mature understanding of love should be able to enjoy the fantasy of romance with abuse if they so choose, so I do think the series has a niche (say among married women with dulling sex lives).
Nope, censorship is never the answer.
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Cycle

Quote from: Valthazar on February 13, 2015, 04:57:27 PM
So would the solution be to censor 50 Shades?

Quote from: Cycle on February 13, 2015, 04:35:34 PM
It isn't about the author's right to write whatever fantasies she wishes to indulge in. 

Inkidu

Quote from: Cycle on February 13, 2015, 06:59:53 PM

Well then, that's interesting.

What is the author's right then?
If you're searching the lines for a point, well you've probably missed it; there was never anything there in the first place.

deadmanshand

Okay since I can't just seem to delete my own thread can I ask someone to lock this? Or mayhaps for people to start their own thread to argue about this bullshit in? Apparently no one seemed to care that I meant for this to be a lighthearted topic in their need to argue about whose view on things was the Most Superiorist but could you at least do it somewhere where it's not going to ping on my unread posts page?

And, before anyone says anything, yes. This sounds rude. But I honestly have no fucks to give at the moment. If people cannot respect my wishes I feel no need to respect anyone else's.

Blythe

Quote from: deadmanshand on February 13, 2015, 07:30:13 PM
Okay since I can't just seem to delete my own thread can I ask someone to lock this?

Thread locked.