Debating a New Game

[Vandren]

Alright folks, I'm thinking about starting up a new game here.  Seeing as I'm not running any at the moment but have several ideas in various stages of completion.  Here're my top three ideas, to gauge interest.  Once one reaches five confirmed players I'll put in an application for a board:

1) WoD Sanctuary
Founded in 1721 by a joint Camarilla-Sabbat partnership, made up of individuals fed up with the war between the two factions, Sanctuary grew up on the borders of northern West Virginia, southwestern Pennsylvania, and western Maryland.  The basic requirement and rules of the city were that nearly anything goes.  The only exception is that the violence between factions not get out of hand.  Over time, Magi, Changing Breeds, and Changlings gravitated toward the city to rest from the all consuming battles between their kinds.  The two founders of the city ultimately became the Camarilla Prince and Sabbat Archbishop of Sanctuary, they hold these positions to this day.

Does this mean that all the species and factions get along with each other?  No.  Not by a long shot.  But, at least the amount of blood flowing in the streets is minimized.  Occasional fights break out, key leaders try to assassinate other leaders, and politics run rampant.  The relative truce remains, however.  The in-fighting continues, in a sort of cold war situation.  Somehow, outsiders in all of the factions have remained ignorant of the purpose of the city, to date.  Should they discover what is really going on, though, the proverbial fan’ll be working overtime.

(This is a WoD game, character sheets preferred, but not required.  Think of Sanctuary as a Casablanca for supernaturals.)

--Note-- I'm debating between using the World of Darkness system, or going freeform and just using the setting.  I'm open to suggestions there.  :)  Currently I have everything for Shapeshifters, Kindred, and Mages set up, though next to nothing on Changlings (I don't own any Changling material).  So, if someone wanted to play a Changling (s)he'd have to help out with developing that part of the city.

2) <Untitled> (title in progress)
Several thousand years ago, Colocyn was a wild world ruled by barely Human petty regional warlords.  This state had existed for several centuries, since the dawn of civilization, such as it was.  That is, until the first wizards came.

Initially, they were greeted as wise women and councilors.  They rapidly achieved positions of power within the marginal power structures that preceded them.  Within a year of their first arrival, though, wizards were ruling all of the tribes, clans, septs, and proto-city-states.  By the end of the decade, the wizards had marginally increased the state of civilization.  At least they organized it somewhat better.  Even at this point, the average person didn’t pay much attention to the wizards.

A few decades later, they had cause to regret that inattention.  That was when the wizards began raiding villages and other settlements to acquire their first “volunteer” servants.  Many of these initial abductees were subjected to bizarre experiments.  The results of these experiments were classified as Human, Anthro, and Hybrid.  Other servants were constructed or summoned.  Ultimately, the servants directly attached to wizards fared better than their relatives in the fields and villages.  Those left behind were treated barely better than animals, overseen by trusted Constructs and Demons.  At least the ones chosen as servants and experiment subjects got to leave the squalor of the fields.  They were taken to individual strongholds at first.  After a century or so, the wizards built Ackrin, a floating castle roughly centered on the largest continent.

This ushered in a new era.  The wizards gathered at Ackrin, leaving their chosen territories to be administered by the Constructs and Demons bound to unflagging loyalty.  In the castle, they met, ate, reveled, experimented, politicked, and conducted social affairs (including procreation of the next, miniscule, generation) far from the reminders of their territories.  Their power has been unchecked, except internally, for thousands of years.  The wizards and witches themselves are virtually immortal, though none of the original “colonizers” remain (the casualties of political in-fighting) there are still several who remember the early days of their rule over the land.

--Note-- This will be freeform with a very very small set of numbers to govern magic a little bit.  Alternatively, it could be adapted for GURPS 3rd ed. within the week.

3) Kaires 7
This is very much a SF work in progress.  I don't even have an intro put together for it yet.  But, think of it as a mix of inspiration from 1984, maybe a little Star Wars cantina, and a few other things.  Basically a city-based SF setting, aliens run most everything, hierarchized society, based on a former trade port and its satellite/station.  Open to innumerable races and types of characters.

--Note-- I'm currently thinking freeform here, but within 2-3 weeks it could be adapted to GURPS 3rd ed. if anyone would prefer that.

[Creeper]

Game number 1 might be fun...

[Vandren]

Game number 1 might be fun...

Would you be more interested as freeform or with the system intact?

[Natalie C. Barney]

Game number 1 but I was curious could a player be an immortal uning the Highlander WoD rules they are not official but could be fun. And I would prefer the rules- after all sooner or later the immortal will meet other in battle for their Quickenings in the end there may be only one!

And no vampires cannot feed from Immortals their mystical blood is not able to give nutrients to the Undead. And her blade empowered with her quickening does aggrevated damage- and very few would know anything about her kind they are rarest of the immortal races after all.

Ok I love Highlander and they are cool.

I will play a vampire if I have to go that way, maybe a Setite.

[Jefepato]

I like #1, and strongly disapprove of making games unnecessarily freeform.

Um, Natalie, the Highlander rules seem pretty insane.  The only thing keeping them remotely balanced is the fact that they need to kill other immortals to increase Quickening, and they can seriously kick ass even at low levels thereof.

Especially since nobody knows how to kill them.

(I was going to ask what kind of crack the author was smoking when he made immortal blood useless to vampires, but I guess that's so vampires don't tie immortals up and use them as a never-ending source of food.)

[Creeper]

Either is good, but I'd like a system much better. I'd probably be a mage.

[Rin]

1 would be fun, and I'd like the system.

[Natalie C. Barney]

I like #1, and strongly disapprove of making games unnecessarily freeform.

Um, Natalie, the Highlander rules seem pretty insane.  The only thing keeping them remotely balanced is the fact that they need to kill other immortals to increase Quickening, and they can seriously kick ass even at low levels thereof.

Especially since nobody knows how to kill them.

(I was going to ask what kind of crack the author was smoking when he made immortal blood useless to vampires, but I guess that's so vampires don't tie immortals up and use them as a never-ending source of food.)

Well I often INSIST they be food but add that as part of the RULES OF THE IMMORTALS any vampire forcibly taking an immortal for food will bring the wrath of all immortals in Quickening Shot (laugh) on the city that the outrage happened in. So they can but might end up with a dozen immortals good and evil united in a hunt. And any vampire might be targeted that gets in the way and Elders are likley to send their grunts in first. I usually add the Carthage incident that it was not a vampiric attack but immortals that destroyed the city when a Elder captured one immortal for food and several found out and the Elders know enough not to risk it on either side. As for being tough they ARE literally the rarest of the immortals and I would assume enough Elders would know how to kill one to be a problem. Save that such interference might very well bring immortals in to teach the given Kindred a lesson. And they have hunters against them to likely not as bad as Vampires but the Inquisition would know about them and the Watchers of course some of them also hunt the Immortals but are renegades among their faction. Not to mention Mages you know how much energy a Quickening will generate. Remember immortals are not immune to bullets, poison and bombs they just can recover faster and more than once in the series a bullet or thrown knife won the day for an immortal.

Remember immortals maintain a Masquerade as well, of course through the use of the ARCANE background.

We can make their blood worth 3 Blood Points per point taken so they would be tempting just a bad idea to try against their will. After all they are deadly swordmen (or any other sharp weapon they fancy) and can do aggrevated damage plus would call out to their peers who would set aside their differences to exact revenge. Evil ones likely for other reasons.

One other rules change I added was they get 1 xp a game period but when the take Quickenings get a good dose of 1 xp per Quickening so they generally have to kill others to get more skilled and the like. This tends to make them advance slower unless they hunt alot or get into fights often (like Duncan or Connor) or are really old like Methos.

[Siegfried]

I always seem to recall that Duncan and Connor had people chasing them the entire time, and not hunting for anyone.  It also seemed that most of their old friends were the ones trying to lop off their heads.  I guess you really do only hurt the ones you love. :D

[Natalie C. Barney]

I always seem to recall that Duncan and Connor had people chasing them the entire time, and not hunting for anyone.  It also seemed that most of their old friends were the ones trying to lop off their heads.  I guess you really do only hurt the ones you love. :D

Friends, most were enemies or evil immortals- take the Kurgan for example!

And Renegade Watchers did hunt Duncan and his friends, in a flash back the Catholic Inquisition finally figured out how to kill them after trying lots of things from burning alive to boiling in oil to eventually decapitation. So it happens the Inquisition might also be a concern. My point is they should gain xp and the like mainly from taking heads and if a Vampire makes one into a larder they will pay. How many Elders would tolerate a young Kindred or Sabbat Pack doing that if it will cause an Immortal Hunt in their midst. Mortal Hunters are bad enough but five or six IMMORTALS would be a nightmare.

One other rule I dropped was the BONUS ATTACK one it was stupid. What I do is allow for IMMORTAL TECHNIQUES or special fighting moves costing FP or XP like a Discipline [7 points/10 points] but they get 3 Free as they were trained. These can add an extra attack or some other benefit- and can be innate powers. Example: They might have a technique that when fighting with a sword against another immortal or creature using a weapon they can do a block and get a free attack so can make a roll to parry then do an attack. Example: An immortal might be really good at acrobatic dodges like Fasil and get a free DODGE roll and make an attack in melee combat. Would have a name and might be know to a hunter so they could anticipate it since techniques could be formed to counter a know one for a duel. Example: Master's Knowledge- you studied the current immortal negate one SPECIAL TECHNIQUE when used with one of your own.

Otherwise they are just wickedly skill MORTALS for doing dice pools.

[Jefepato]

I'm not sure I understand how other immortals would know that the one had gotten turned into a vampire's Golden Corral.

But really, why add immortals to the World of Darkness at all?  There are already so many supernaturals that I'm not sure where the normal humans even fit in, and although I'd need to see them in play to be sure, they don't look remotely balanced with the rest of the WoD (even considering how unbalanced the WoD is anyway).

[Vandren]

I'll address a few things:

1) Which one? - Seems to be overwhelmingly #1, the WoD board, thus far.  I'll start polishing that one in the afternoon (there're stil la few rough edges I'd like to smooth out a little)

2) Freeform v. System - Seems to be leaning toward system.  I should explain, though, why I've been debating.  For something like WoD where the system and setting go hand-in-hand, it's difficult to remove the one from the other.  That said, freeform games tend, in my experience, to gather more players and last longer.  Thus my dilema.  But, the masses of interested folks are leaning it toward system, which is fine.  :)

3) WoD Immortals - <insert emphatic emoticon> No.  Never.  Not at all.  I'd expressly forbid anything gathered from an unofficial source.  I've seen too much WoD stuff floating around online that's absolute . . . suffice to say, I wouldn't allow anything unofficial (note - I may allow one or two things from official magazines, such as Pyramid and White Wolf's magazine, on a case-by-case basis).  Revised ed (pre-name changes), since those are the books I have.  While I have a fairly wide range of V:tM, W:tA, and M:tA books, I'm nowhere near everything, so some things may need to be explained to me, but that'll be a case by case basis.

4) Plot Stuff - While I have some plotline ideas in mind for each game, I'd prefer to set those up as optional and include player oriented/created plots as well.

5) Numbers - Looks like roughly the right number on #1, not sure what to make of Siegfried's post.  :)

[Natalie C. Barney]

Ok- can't blame a girl for trying.  :-*

So official sources that means the core books, other sources like the Clan Books and the like, right. So lets see that leaves some nice options. Any limit of SECT like just Camarilla or just Sabbat? I assume Independants are around as well.

[Anathanasia]

I'd be pretty interested in the WoD one myself, if it's a system.

I agree that it's kind of hard to seperate the system from the setting in the case of WoD, and especially with the potential power levels I think it's better to have a mechanical form of resolution. Mage vs. vampire is always a pissing contest at best, freefrom it'd easily become frustrating from all the arguments.

I'd love to play a lasombra vampire myself. I just love obtenebration; it's all about the shadow-step and the tentacles for me...  ;)

I'm wondering, however, how you would intend to run it? Would be like a classic RPG with a GM running stories and the PCs essentially being a 'party' (even if they don't get along personally), or more like a moderated sandbox?

[Muse]

Well, i've got some time now, and I'm always eager to play a mage. 

[Elvi]

All three are appealing, but guess what I am going to say?
(big snogs for first one to answer correctly)

[Rin]

All three are appealing, but guess what I am going to say?
(big snogs for first one to answer correctly)

Number 1?

*needs snogs*

[Elvi]

*sigh*
No Rin, thats not what I am going to say.......
But as you sound so desperate......
*snogs*

[Rin]

Hurrah! I feel loved!

My first guess was #2.. Any closer?

[Elvi]

Laughs!
No what I was going to say was ......."not the numbers *shudders* please not the numbers"

[Natalie C. Barney]

System.

[Elvi]

*pokes Natalie hard in the ribs*

Don't you swear at me young lady!

[Muse]

::chuckles::  Isn't it cute how Elvi-megami-sama is so afraid of number?  :p 

[Elvi]

It's them things in funny shapes and dots on them that get to me.....*shudders*

[Vandren]

Just on briefly from work (I'll do IC posts in an hour or three after I get home and eat something - maybe after errands too).  But a few answers:

1) Sects - no limit on those (though I expressly forbid any True Black Hand characters).  There will be some clan/tribe/breed limits, but those should be fairly straightforward and common sensical - no True Brujah, Nagaraja, White Howlers, Bunyip, Nephandi, etc.  :)  Some types will be limited to a certain number rather than banned - for example the Giovanni and Assamite will be limited to 2-3 characters each, while Gangrel and Ventrue, for example, will be unlimited.  Red Talons are obviously limited as well, due to the urban setting.

2) Style - Ideally, I'd like to do a "sandbox" style, but I'm adaptable and can easily edit it into a troupe-style play.  If it ends up being troupe-style, I'll be much more strict on what's allowed for characters due to the necessity keeping them from ripping each other apart within the first five minutes of game time.  Obviously, in terms of experience, a troupe-style means relatively regular XP awards.  I've got a system in mind to cover them in "sandbox" style as well.  I don't envision it being a system game where there're dice rolls every other post, but having the system there to resolve major conflicts and introduce an element of chance is nice.  :)

3) Last Note - I do use some optional playtested homebrew things as well.  Most notably the way that Influence works.  Rather than having a single "Influence" Background, I divide it up into different areas, such as Law Enforcement, Bureaucracy, Occult, Education, etc.  Each one acts as Influence, but is limited to its sphere of control (though it would be intersting and possible to try using one's Occult influence to speed up the processing of bureaucratic paperwork . . .)  That's the biggest homebrew thing I use (probably the only one).  This worked out really well in a 4+ year game I used to be involved in.

[Elvi]

*Nods at one and two, goes blank at three*

[Rin]

*sticks thumbs up*

Sounds good!

[Muse]

So can I play Kumiko? 

[Anathanasia]

*nods to Vandren*

Okay, sounds good.

I would personally prefer something troupe style, since I've had some bad experiences with sandbox games where finding a direction other than immediately into bed was all but impossible.  ;)

But I'd like to give it a go either way, lasombra or even a lasombra antitribu being my first choices (it's all about the shadow manipulation).

Whichever way everyone wants to see it happen, so long as we're using a system. Really, freeform mage vs. vampire would not go well at all...  :P

[Rin]

*seconds Ana* Yes.. Plot is good. Sex is great, but a plot is important.

[Elvi]

Agree with plot disagree on mage v vampire not working as long as people have their characters straight and have set their own boundaries it can and does work.
You lot just need to think outside of the box.

*mumble grumble mumble* 

[Rin]

It depends on which box. Some are better than others, or at least hold goodies inside.

[Elvi]

Nothing should be kept in a box, it's dark a stuffy in a box......

[Jefepato]

I understand the need for plot in addition to sex, but I guess someone should ask now: I assume we're ignoring/retconning the fact that WoD vampires generally cannot, in fact, have sex normally?

[Rin]

I understand the need for plot in addition to sex, but I guess someone should ask now: I assume we're ignoring/retconning the fact that WoD vampires generally cannot, in fact, have sex normally?

Thats always seemed one very stupid ruling, to me. :(

[Natalie C. Barney]

How about Baali?

Just Kidding!  :D

Really maybe a Tzimisce Thaumaturgist (would have to buy Thaumaturgy) she would represent the scholarly side of the clan, maybe an Old Clan Tzimisce that is a Sabbat Vampire- her Sire would be likely Old Clan (they are still Tzimisce and all and don't have to be in the True Black Hand. The clanbook even has one in it that's a Sabbat. So its not a stretch.

[Rin]

Ooo.. Baali.

[Celestial Goblin]

Thats always seemed one very stupid ruling, to me. :(

Actually, the new WoD book makes a clear statement about it. Vampires can have sex, but it's a secondary thing compared to the extasy of drinking blood. Those vamps who are in love, or those who with a hedonistic approach to life will do it, though it will be mostly a physical thing. They also are unable to produce seed, i think, but can make blood spurt out if they try hard.

[Faolan]

I understand the need for plot in addition to sex, but I guess someone should ask now: I assume we're ignoring/retconning the fact that WoD vampires generally cannot, in fact, have sex normally?

Actually White Wolf made a specific rulling to say that Vampires can push the blood around in thier bodies anywhere they want. In other words Male vampires can in fact push blood into thier cocks to make them rigid, and as a matter of fact they can stay that way as long as they want. Female vampires unfortunatley have to use lubrication because they don't produce natural lubrication anymore, but othewise are perfectly capable of being penetrated and it still feels good and theirs no reason they couldn't have orgasms.

[ZK]

As well of help within feeding. They don't "orgasm" in that sense, but they still can. I forgot the name of the opperation where it makes a man unable to produce seed, so he shoots blanks. But, you get the gidst of it.

Speaking of nWoD. I was thinking of hosting one myself. Not to jack Vandren's post, I'll start another segment of my own.

Same thing applies for nWoD, just, it's a bit more detailed in nWoD instead of cut corners and changed over different editions.

[Elvi]

As well of help within feeding. They don't "orgasm" in that sense, but they still can. I forgot the name of the opperation where it makes a man unable to produce seed, so he shoots blanks. But, you get the gidst of it.

Vasectomy

[Jefepato]

You could always play a Tzimisce koldun, Natalie.

Koldunic Sorcery is incredibly mean (never, ever piss off a koldun with most of the Earth path), but interesting.

[Vandren]

*Nods at one and two, goes blank at three*

Three's got a better explaination typed up in my Word/PDF file.  :)

So can I play Kumiko?

Probably. :)

But I'd like to give it a go either way, lasombra or even a lasombra antitribu being my first choices (it's all about the shadow manipulation).

Whichever way everyone wants to see it happen, so long as we're using a system. Really, freeform mage vs. vampire would not go well at all..

At least a few Lasombra'll be around.  I've seen freeform WoD work well, but the GM needs to be on guard.  :)

I understand the need for plot in addition to sex, but I guess someone should ask now: I assume we're ignoring/retconning the fact that WoD vampires generally cannot, in fact, have sex normally?

The way I've commonly seen this gotten around in Adult WoD games is that WoD does allso for storage of blood in various parts of the body.  So, this causes no problems for male Kindred.  Afterall, an erection is caused by blood flowing into certain veins/tissues.  For females, it's another story.

Faolan and CG hit those points though.  :)  Side note . . . I think I'd count "ejaculated" vitae as a feeding for the purposes of Ghouling and Blood Bonds.

How about Baali?

Just Kidding!  Cheesy

Really maybe a Tzimisce Thaumaturgist (would have to buy Thaumaturgy) she would represent the scholarly side of the clan, maybe an Old Clan Tzimisce

Baali?  Extinct.  :)  Old Clan Tzimisce, I'd planned on banning, but given a good enough background/concept/story, I might be talked into allowing one.

That does bring up one of my other, minor, house rules, though.  :)  Typically, I say that in order to start play with a non-clan discipline, the Kindred has to be at least an Ancilla (no Neonates or Childer can start play with non-clan disciplines unless they were acquired as a ghoul, they're just not experienced enough yet).  I also generally rule that the character has to have at least 1 dot in all three clan disciplines first and that the level of a non-clan discipline cannot exceed the highest clan discipline (Gangrel - Animalism 2, Fortitude 3, Protean 1 can't go above 3 in a non-clan discipline).  As with most things, I'm willing to consider exceptions if there's a good IC reason.

[Vandren]

Oh, and now that I've completely lost track of this thread . . . how many takers are there for the WoD game, with system intact?  How many for the WoD without system?

And finally, how many for troupe-style, how many for "sandbox" style?

[Jefepato]

WoD, with system intact.

I'd be interested in troupe-style, but if we're all playing wildly different things that could be tough.  If we can make it work, though...

[Elvi]

I think I'm ambling off out of this one, I'm lost and the game hasn't even started.

[Anathanasia]

WoD, with system. I would prefer troupe, but I'd be okay with a sandbox too.

I think a troupe can work...possibly under this setting even wildly different characters could work, as an assembled group of troubleshooters, each appointed by a respective elder kind of figure?

On the vampires and sex...just take the baby-face merit? With my groups here, we always played with it extending to sexual fluids as well (not to any kind of maby making, of course), and vampires with baby face can even drool in their sleep and get BO, though. Kind of double edged that way. Yeah, your body has a natural temperature and you seem to breathe (but don't need to, so you can hold your breath indefinately) and can have sex, but you also sweat, stink and get oily if you dont shower, just like a mortal. Like the body didn't quite die.

[Natalie C. Barney]

Then I likely will do a Caitiff they may be Vampire white trash but have advantages no one looks to them to do anything and they have no Clan disciplines- some are off limits like serious levels of Thaumaturgy as that takes training and the odd ones but still there are options. Likely after she saw too many Vampire movies would have learned:

Fortitude (everyone knows vampires are hard to hurt)
Potence (ditto- the can kick ass)
Dominate (ditto- she saw Dracula and all they all can mind fuck mortals)

Unless she saw other movies like Vicissitude (Dusk Til Dawn- and her Sire might have been infected with it but most Vampires appear to be freaks), Celerity (Underworld) and Animalism (Dracula could control that wolf...). Not to mention Fright Night (claws and red eyes, shapeshifting) and other movies. She could get all kinds of ideas. In some cult movies they even do magic if she had an occult background and practiced alot- well the Tremere learned their art using their Vampiric blood there is no reason minor skills couldn't be formed with a good background. Of course ones not in movies or books are different. In a movie called Crypts they had a Vampire voodoo queen.

[Muse]

I prefer system and troupe. 

[Natalie C. Barney]

A Caitiff would be happy having vampires in Clans willing to talk to her.  ;)

[Jefepato]

In some cult movies they even do magic if she had an occult background and practiced alot- well the Tremere learned their art using their Vampiric blood there is no reason minor skills couldn't be formed with a good background.

You definitely can't learn Thaumaturgy without a teacher (even Tremere need someone to teach them, to raise Thaumaturgy in any way, and besides they try to exterminate anyone else they catch knowing it), but all the others are certainly possible.

[Rin]

Oh, and now that I've completely lost track of this thread . . . how many takers are there for the WoD game, with system intact?  How many for the WoD without system?

And finally, how many for troupe-style, how many for "sandbox" style?

Me, and for system.

Troupe style or sandbox style would be good, though I expect Troupe would work better

[ZK]

The physical Disciplines (both in oWoD and nWoD) require no actual teacher. For a Caitiff to have a Clan Discipline as a starting discipline, the Caitiff in question would have to have a Mentor of said clan with abilility.

As for Thaumaturgy, it's lost to all but the Tremere and a few other distinct Bloodlines of Independent Clans and what is left of the Manus Nigrum. The only way a Caitiff could learn it is if they were really, really trusted by a Tremere of the Camarilla or taught by one of the Tremere antitribu (not the extinct Sabbat Bloodline that had Morpheus, but the Anarchs).

Dark Thuamaturgy is taught by the Earthbound (aka ancient Demons) and brings more penalties in using then a Diablerist has when trying to survive amongst the ranks of the Camarilla. As well, it's also generally fround upon by the Sabbat.

[ZK]

The book of Outcasts: Players Guide to the Pariahs is a Second Edition material and as well, it was disbanned and concidered "voided". The more recent book on the Caitiff and their Thin Blooded relatives are that of "Time of Thin Blood".

[Natalie C. Barney]

That would be up to the Storyteller and I would learn ones she saw fictional vampires use, like Animalism she would not know all about it but could get the first dot easily enough the rest would be a surprise. I'm no expert but aren't many options up to sheer survival? Take a simple one Presence all vampires have a hunting instinct and attractive food would be one. Why would she need a teacher for that one. Or Dominate. Or even Obfuscate I could see her chased by some hunter hiding in the shadows and wishing they couldn't see her and bammo Level 1 Obfuscate.

And who says it was voided isn't that up to the person running the game- if he wants to limit some disciplines that's fine but ones that would be survival tools are likely to be developed I say why? And what are clan diciplines really those unique to a clan several many vampires have so its likely even if she had no Mentor she could have several. Presence is know to several clans and even Obfuscate could be instinctive developed as a last ditch adaption. Even Vicissitude is a disease if her maker had it she could.

But I leave this to the Storyteller not you. He can use whatever sources he wants.

[ZK]

It's voided because the Time of Thin Blood rules balance the previous one out. Caitiff still have it easier when coming up with new Discplines, just, they changed the system.

[Natalie C. Barney]

I have an idea for a BUFFY-inspired dicipline called VAMP OUT. I got the idea off a website but think its too powerful there so am looking to tone it down. Would fill in the whole everyone knows Vampires can kick butte concept and she saw one too many Vampire movies. I figure 7 fp for one dot in that if the Storyteller is ok with it.

For the starting Diciplines I likely will take more common ones like Presence or ones she might have learned for self defense or survival. Where the first dot make sense like Obfuscate.

Again its up to the Storyteller, many GM's use earlier material its up to him what he allows or not. He can use anything her wants he's the GM! He has the power- all hail the GM!  :D

[Jefepato]

I think the default three Disciplines for Caitiff are Potence, Fortitude, and Presence, but it varies (somewhat) with the individual...

Do you really want to be like a Buffy vampire?  They die when you poke them with a pencil.

[Elvi]

*cough*
Depends how old the vampires are in buffy, certain ones deffinately needed more than pencils, I think a ruler, set square and eraser were needed as well.

[Natalie C. Barney]

I hate to point out to the rules they have no CLAN disciplines they can take ANY. Of course heavy CLAN ones are usually off limits as in ones ONLY a specific clan gets. Like SERPENTIS or NECROMANCY or PROTEAN- if you force disciplines then why take a Caitiff might as well be a Pander in the Sabbat? Sensibly the Fortitude one is most likely and Presence (maybe Dominate) as that helps in hunting. But I could see others- stealthy ones like Obuscate or one like Viscissitude (if its still a disease based Discipline). My view is a Kindred with no Sire around and left to her won devices would either develop ones partially based on survival and partly what they KNOW about vampires. Movies and shows would give them all sorts of ideas. Caitiff that survive are usually the strong-willed ones is it such a stretch they could adapt by learning some odd power. Although I might take Mentor so would have a friend for my character- could be maybe a Gangrel or some odd clan or even an older Caitiff.

Most I've played with try to learn as MANY disciplines as they can.

Although I'm not arguing here just pointing out that they are not supposed to be locked into certain disciplines that's one of their few advantages. And being able to create new disciplines of course having an easier time of it.

[Jefepato]

if you force disciplines then why take a Caitiff might as well be a Pander in the Sabbat?

I never said they were forced, those are just the ones Caitiff usually develop first.

And Panders are exactly the same thing as Caitiff, so I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here.

[Natalie C. Barney]

Actually Panders are not in the Sabbat they have the same disciplines and it so happens all the combat ones they are the Sabbat cannon fodder, and have fixed disciplines. They are no longer truly Caitiff then but almost a new fixed bloodline. Its true outside Caitiff are adopted in but ones made in packs are locked in certain Disciplines. And in most (ok ALL wars are the front line to the fray not a good thing).

But for my Caitiff I was thinking Dominate (aids in hunting and in self-defense- plus most vampires in movies seem to have something along these lines like the old Dracula with Bela), Fortitude (got to take the most likely one and again vampires can take damage everyone knows that) and Obfuscate (hiding is a good thing). Likely will make her Mentor a Nosferatu-Caitiff thats been around the block a bit.

[Jefepato]

Um...are you reading the same Guide to the Sabbat I am?  It says clearly that the Panders have no fixed Disciplines, and are for all practical purposes Caitiff.  Did a later book change this somehow?

[Natalie C. Barney]

Well it used to be that way? Oh well it doesn't matter really.

[Vandren]

You definitely can't learn Thaumaturgy without a teacher (even Tremere need someone to teach them, to raise Thaumaturgy in any way, and besides they try to exterminate anyone else they catch knowing it), but all the others are certainly possible.

This would/will be a GM call.  Which will be made on a case by case basis as necessary.

The physical Disciplines (both in oWoD and nWoD) require no actual teacher. For a Caitiff to have a Clan Discipline as a starting discipline, the Caitiff in question would have to have a Mentor of said clan with abilility.

As for Thaumaturgy, it's lost to all but the Tremere and a few other distinct Bloodlines of Independent Clans and what is left of the Manus Nigrum.

Again, GM call.  Caitiff, according to my copy of the main book can start with any set of three Disciplines approved by the GM.  As for Thaumaturgy, long story.  Suffice to say that any world plot stuff White-Wolf did post 1998 can be ignored.

The book of Outcasts: Players Guide to the Pariahs is a Second Edition material and as well, it was disbanned and concidered "voided". The more recent book on the Caitiff and their Thin Blooded relatives are that of "Time of Thin Blood".

Given that I own Outcasts and do not own Time of Thin Blood (see above response), this statement is null and void for any WoD game I run.

It's voided because the Time of Thin Blood rules balance the previous one out. Caitiff still have it easier when coming up with new Discplines, just, they changed the system.

See above two responses.

I think the default three Disciplines for Caitiff are Potence, Fortitude, and Presence, but it varies (somewhat) with the individual...

Caitiff choose three Disciplines, of the player/character's choice, which become "clan" ones for the individual.  The only limits placed on the choice are the individual GM's.  In part, this is because any Kindred can be a Caitiff, if (s)he doesn't know anything about his/her sire.

Panders are not in the Sabbat they have the same disciplines

Nope.  Panders and Caitiff are identical.  THey're just organized under the Sabbat, versus being unorganized under the Camarilla.

are you reading the same Guide to the Sabbat I am?  It says clearly that the Panders have no fixed Disciplines, and are for all practical purposes Caitiff.  Did a later book change this somehow?

Nope, there's been no change, at least to the best of my knowledge.  And given that the book is no out of print, I doubt it'll be changing.  :)
________________________________________________________

Anyway.  I'll put in the request for a board by the end of the weekend, once I polish a few more little things (around school work and housework).

[Vandren]

I was going to wait on this until the game's up, but just to forstall further bickering . . . the list of books I have in my possession (and plan to use, though I'm open to use of ones I don't have, if I am provided with the section you plan/wish to use).  Unless otherwise noted, I think everything I have is 1st printing, probably mostly 2nd ed with some Revised - I have no problem with the Revised ed. rules, but the Revised ed. storyline is thrown out the window.

Mage
Book of Chantries, The
Book of Shadows, The
Mage: the Ascension (1st ed., I think)
Traditions Gathered 3: Swords of Faith (Akashic, Celestial Chorus, and Euthanatos Tradition Books)

Mummy
Mummy, 2nd ed.

Vampire
Blood Magic: Secrets of Thaumaturgy
Chicago by Night
Clanbook: Assamite
Clanbook: Brujah
Clanbook: Gangrel
Clanbook: Nosferatu
Clanbook: Ravnos
Clanbook: Setite
Clanbook: Tremere
Clanbook: Ventrue
Dirty Secrets of the Black Hand
Ghouls: Fatal Addiction
Hunters Hunted, The
Players Guide to the Sabbat
Storytellers Handbook to the Sabbat
Storytellers Handbook, The
V:tM Players Guide 2nd ed.
Vampire: the Masguerade (Revised)
War of Ages (Anarch's Cookbook + Elysium)

Werewolf
Book of the Weaver
Book of the Wyrm
Gurahl
Kinfolk: Unsung Heroes
Mokolé
Nagah
Players Guide to the Changing Breeds
Ratkin
Rite of Passage
Tribebook: Black Furies
Tribebook: Bone Gnawers
Tribebook: Fianna
Tribebook: Get of Fenris
Tribebook: Glasswalkers
Tribebook: Shadowlords
Tribebook: Silver Fangs
W:tA Player's Guide 2nd ed.
Werewolf: the Apocalypse

General
World of Darkness: Outcasts

[Anathanasia]

Oh, goodie, a list of books!  :)

I was somewhat hoping to see clanbook lasombra in there, but I can't remember if there's even anything in there I'd want to use for my character. It's also too bad you don't have the 3rd ed Vampire, I just really liked some of the tweaks and clarifications (especially to disciplines) in that one. I only ever got the 3rd ed core and players myself, but I thought they were good. It's okay, I still have my earlier printings of the core rules; one good thing about being a pack-rat. Damn my mother for sharing the tendency to not throw things away with me.  :P

Another question to the storyteller, I take it Sabbat vampires can take Paths instead of Humanity? I would just like to be sure...

[Muse]

Hm..  first edition Kumiko, and without even mertis and flaws from the book fo shadows?  This'll be difrent. 

[Creeper]

I don't have first edition, or even second edition, so I don't know what changes I'd have to make. I guess I'm out.

[Anathanasia]

Creeper: not sure what game you're talking about, but the differences are all pretty small. Tweaks. Excepting the brand new books, anyway, they are pretty different. Either way, I'd be willing to help you with a character, once we actually have the character creation rules according to our storyteller.

[Vandren]

I was somewhat hoping to see clanbook lasombra in there, but I can't remember if there's even anything in there I'd want to use for my character.

If there's anything you'd like from any books not on the list, include a description (or at least system description) with character apps.  I'm happy to review such info.  :)

Another question to the storyteller, I take it Sabbat vampires can take Paths instead of Humanity? I would just like to be sure...

Yeppers.  :)

Hm..  first edition Kumiko, and without even mertis and flaws from the book fo shadows?  This'll be difrent.

Take another look.  Book of Shadows is on there.  :)

I don't have first edition, or even second edition, so I don't know what changes I'd have to make. I guess I'm out.

I've been using these books in games for the last 10 years with no problems, so the edition differences are too minor for it to matter, IMO.  :)
__________________________________

Added Note

Since the majority seem to prefer troupe-style play . . . I think I'll limit characters to starting level, Camarilla, Sabbat, Independant, non-Wyrm Changing Breeds (inc. Ronin), and Tradition/Hollow One Mages.

[Natalie C. Barney]

I'm not sure about mixing groups Camarilla and Sabbat in Europe have a truce going so its possible but they do not share cities. Mages are another case they often have weird allies and all.

As for my character I'm not sure if their will be lots of fighting or not- that will affect my character choice.  ???

[Vandren]

I'm not sure about mixing groups Camarilla and Sabbat in Europe have a truce going so its possible but they do not share cities. Mages are another case they often have weird allies and all.

There are several contested cities in the U.S.  Europe doesn't really matter for this game, seeing as it's set in the Virginia-Pennsylvania area.  Also, there are reasons, based on the plot I have in mind.  :)

As for my character I'm not sure if their will be lots of fighting or not- that will affect my character choice.  ???

I'd imagine a fair bit of detection, sleuthing, a bit of politicking, probably a little fighting, and several other things.  But, the exact proportions depend on the characters involved.

[Rin]

How'll you run Paradox? I've played with a lot of GMs, who've run it differently. Everything from "It always knows what you're doing and NO spell is coincidental' to ''dox only if it's really blatant, and even then, the 'dox on slaps you around a bit'.

[Vandren]

How'll you run Paradox? I've played with a lot of GMs, who've run it differently. Everything from "It always knows what you're doing and NO spell is coincidental' to ''dox only if it's really blatant, and even then, the 'dox on slaps you around a bit'.

Excellent question . . .

Judging by the flowchart in my copy of M:tA, here's what I see:

Vulgar Magick with Witnesses = automatic 1 Paradox + 2 Paradox/die rolled if it's a Botch
Vulgar Magick w/o Witnesses = automatic 1 Paradox + 1 Paradox/die rolled if it's a Botch
Coincidental Magick = no automatic Paradox, but 1 Paradox/roll of 1 in the Botch

The two Vulgar attempts also call for a Paradox Backlash roll.  (Each ST success removes 1 Paradox from the pool, but nasty stuff happens.  ;))

[Elvi]

*twitches*

[Jefepato]

Vulgar Magick with Witnesses = automatic 1 Paradox + 2 Paradox/die rolled if it's a Botch

"What do you mean, you sprout wings and fly away?"

[Rin]

*nods* How flexible will you be about the vulgar/coincidental divide? Like I said, I've seen it run several ways, some better than others.

[Anathanasia]

Added Note

Since the majority seem to prefer troupe-style play . . . I think I'll limit characters to starting level, Camarilla, Sabbat, Independant, non-Wyrm Changing Breeds (inc. Ronin), and Tradition/Hollow One Mages.

Aww, so far away from shadow step...  :P

Sure you don't want to let us have a few extra freebies at least?

I'm game anyway, I just know how slow online games can be, thus character advancement, so, y'know, I am hoping I can change your mind a bit and talk you into starting all the characters as not-neonate level.  ;)

[Natalie C. Barney]

You can get more Freebie Points just take 7 pts. in flaws and no merits. Basic starting level is fine by me.

[Vandren]

"What do you mean, you sprout wings and fly away?"

Yeppers.  :)

*nods* How flexible will you be about the vulgar/coincidental divide? Like I said, I've seen it run several ways, some better than others.

I'd think it fairly obvious, but since you ask . . . if it can be logically explained away (even as "Eastern medical technique"), or hidden, then coincidental.  If it's obviously ripping away the fabric of consentual reality (throwing fireballs, flying, etc.) then it's be vulgar.  There're probably some questionable acts, but those'd be questionable in the Mage's mind anyway.  :)

Sure you don't want to let us have a few extra freebies at least?

I'm game anyway, I just know how slow online games can be, thus character advancement, so, y'know, I am hoping I can change your mind a bit and talk you into starting all the characters as not-neonate level.

"Starting" creation level's not necessarily "Neonate" level.  I've seen, and created, some quite good ancilla with starting level.  :)  But, I'll think about it, maybe a little.  No promises.

I'll put in the request today.  Given that Elvi's one of the goddesses, the board ought to be up soon.  Info may take alittle longer as I've got a fair bit of classwork to do today.

[Elvi]

Boards up dearest and even though it IS a system game I actually managed not to break the boards!
*sticks tongue out at ANA *

[ZK]

I decided to add an Archives & OOC child board for it.

[Elvi]

*blinks*
what already?
Thought the scum *coughs* players had to waite for those?

Good grief we are an efficient pair aren't we? *grins*

[ZK]

When I get bored, I get creative and productive. ^_^

[Vandren]

I decided to add an Archives & OOC child board for it.

Danke, mucho (woohoo, two languages!).  And thanks for the extra part.  :)

Alright folks, board's up under NCNS and I'm getting threads added bit by bit while typing up my polishing.