[Interest Check] 4th Edition D&D

[Caustic]

I might be interested.  I'd have to get 4e, but no problem.

Really, what I'd look for doesn't have a damn thing to do with the mechanics, it'd be having a diverse group of characters, interesting interactions, an interesting setting with lots of mood and atmosphere, and a low-pressure game-- paragraphs required, pages not so much.

So, yeah, I'd be interested in just about any of these settings-- but yeah, I'm certainly interested in the Elliquian Twist (is that like the Transylvania Twist?).  Not "EXTREEEEEEEMEMEMEMEMEMEEE" definitely.  But mid to heavy.

I'm anxious to cut to the chase here... minimize the discussion of hows and whys and mechanics and rules, etc.  Just let me know when we can start talking character ideas and concepts, and if I'm allowed in.

[Jeramiahh]

Oookay, then! It's nearly unanimous, our first 4e adventure shall be... The Dragon's Aerie!

So, now that the adventure's been decided, time to lay out some groundrules.

Character creation: As per the core rules, for 14th level. We'll be using a 28 point-buy, base wealth as posited by the system (One lvl 15 item, one lvl 14, one level 13, and an appropriate amount of gold, whatever it is. I don't have my books in front of me, sue me.) I'll allow gnomes and minotaurs as playable races from the MM, or one of the core races.

Several side notes: I'll be using, off and on, the popular house rule of Solo monsters having only 1/2 their listed HP, but a lower level to compensate. I love the idea of them, and they fit this place well, but 'punching bags of hp' do not sound appealing. Some battles may last extra-long, what would be two, or even three battles, strung together. I'll be using the idea of 'combat milestones', at certain points in the battle, which will work like normal milestones, only mid-battle, granting you an action point and an extra use of a daily magic item.

Notes on the setting: Black dragons in this setting are functionally identical to red dragons of the standard setting; greedy, power-hungry, fire-breathing bastards. Red's, as may become important to the plot later, are much closer to neutral, leaning towards good, with an attitude shift to match. Minotaurs and gnomes are non-monstrous creatures, and are members of the civilized races.

As far as sexiness in the game goes, I'll use it if the opportunity presents itself, but I prefer to keep it to downtime practice. If you have any questions, ask them here or send me a PM, and please PM your character sheets ASAP. I plan to limit party size to six, though I won't start without four.

[Zaer Darkwail]

Alrightey, tiefling rogue coming up!

[Jefepato]

I suppose we should stick to non-evil alignments?

I'll get some kind of fighter worked up soon.  Quite possibly a minotaur.

[kongming]

And only now I realised Hikari said wouldn't want to play Cleric and Wizard. Heh, whoops.

I'll go ahead and make a Cleric, but it does look like you have 6 players without me. This is just in case.

Oh, and the money is "Enough to buy another 13th level item, or the equivalent".

[Jeramiahh]

Don't count on it, KM; I never count a player as in, until I've got the character sheets to support it. =P

[Hikari]

Right, I'm not really interested in playing a Cleric or Wizard.  I could maybe play a Warlord or Warlock, but that's about as close as I could see.  At the moment, I'm thinking maybe an Eladrin Ranger.  The extent that I have so far:

Velenae served for many years under a ghaele of spring in the City of Dancing Petals, an eladrin realm tucked deep amongst the flowering trees of a primordial forest that only connects to the mortal world when the blossoming petals fall from the trees in spring.  There, she acted as a Sin Hunter, an anointed enforcer of eladrin high law; less that associated with social ethics and mores, and more matters of grave supernatural danger.  The Sin Hunters were called upon to pursue those thought to be a danger to the eladrin or Feywild as a whole due to meddling in forbidden powers or breaking the most sacred of oaths.  Commonly, they were summoned to hunt warlocks who made vile pacts with the darkness beyond the stars, and other unthinkable horrors.

Velenae was one the ghaele's best hunters, long apprenticed under the Chief Huntress, Sariel.  The two were quite close, as masters and students in such markedly martial traditions tend to be, and bound by allegiance forged in a hundred dangerous hunts.  Thus, it came as quite a shock when Sariel abandoned the hunt for a human man she had been sent to capture, and eladrin society with it, striking off to live among the mortals.  Less surprising was the fact that Velenae became the Chief Huntress in her stead, and immediately found herself assigned to finishing the hunt Sariel forfeited...  and her predecessor herself, as well.

Though she chased Sariel to the edge of the world and beyond, ultimately cornering her deep within the human realms, Velenae found she was neither able to strike her down nor bring her back in chains; the former huntress's simple longing, to spare and live with the man with whom she had fallen in love, was far too easy to sympathize with.  Velenae knew, however, that she would no longer be welcome among the court of the spring ghaele, and so resigned herself to a lonely life wandering the mortal realm.

Velenae has survived in this unfamiliar world by acting as a mercenary and bounty hunter.  The Wind Walker, as she is often called by those in awe of her ability to move with simple and galling ease across crowded battlefields, has garnered quite a reputation as a sellsword willing to face incredible dangers without breaking her otherworldly detachment from the politics of such affairs.  She is often hired on by adventurers as a scout, guide, or simply another experienced sword-arm to pit against the considerable dangers of a dungeon.

Ability Scores
Strength 20
Wisdom 20
Dexterity 18
Constitution 12
Charisma 11
Intelligence 11

Feystep
Two-Blade Fighting Style
Hunter's Quarry (2d8)
Prime Shot
Blade Storm
Stormstep Action

Nature
Perception
Stealth
Endurance
Atheltics
Acrobatics

Lv1 Hit and Run, Twin Strike
Lv1 Two-Fanged Strike*
Lv1 Jaws of the Wolf
Lv2 Yield Ground
Lv3 Cut and Run
Lv5 Two-Wolf Pounce
Lv6 Weave through the Fray
Lv7 Sweeping Whirlwind
Lv9 Swirling Leaves of Steel
Lv10 Open the Range
Lv11 Clearing the Ground
Lv12 Throw Caution to the Wind
Lv13 Armor Splinter

Agile Hunter
Eladrin Soldier
Lethal Hunter
Two-Weapon Defense
Two-Weapon Fighting
Toughness
Weapon Focus: Heavy Blade
Armor Specialization: Hide
Heavy Blade Opportunist
Fleet-Footed

Lightning Weapon +3
Thundering Weapon +3
Bloodcut Armor +3

[Zaer Darkwail]

Ok, used online char generator (It is very good; http://www.pathguy.com/cg35.htm). Also used Compendium help me choose powers and items (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/insider/compendium). Did not take long make the char if I have multiple pages open :P. I choosed 12lvl item instead gold (but should have some, as 13lvl was max possible item).

Cutter

Male Tiefling Rogue / Shadow assassin
Level 14
Unaligned (Chaotic)
Representing Zaer Darkwail

Strength    15   (+2)
Dexterity    20   (+5)
Constitution    13   (+1)
Intelligence    14   (+2)
Wisdom    10   (+0)
Charisma    22   (+6)
   
Height:6' 0"
Weight:180 lb
Skin:Scarlet
Eyes:Red
Hair:Purple; Wavy

Maximum Hit Points: 90

      Bloodied: 45
      Surge Value: 22
      Surges / Day: 7         

Size: Medium
Speed: 6 squares
Vision: Low-light

Initiative:   1d20 +14   = + 7 [half level] + 5 [dexterity] + 2 [quick draw]
Base Strength Attack:   1d20 +9   = + 7 [half level + 2 [strength]
Base Dexterity Attack:   1d20 +12   = + 7 [half level + 5 [dexterity]
Base Constitution Attack:   1d20 +8   = + 7 [half level + 1 [constitution]
Base Intelligence Attack:   1d20 +9   = + 7 [half level + 2 [intelligence]
Base Wisdom Attack:   1d20 +7   = + 7 [half level + 0 [wisdom]
Base Charisma Attack:   1d20 +13   = + 7 [half level + 6 [charisma]

Armor Class:    27   = 10 + 7 [half level] + 5 [dexterity] + 5 [leather]
Fortitude Defense:22   = 10 + 7 [half level] + 2 [strength] +3 [enchantment]
Reflex Defense:    27   = 10 + 7 [half level] + 2 [rogue] + 5 [dexterity] +3 [enchantment]
Will Defense:    26   = 10 + 7 [half level] + 6 [charisma] +3 [enchantment]

Armor: Leather (15 lb)

Shield: None (street clothes)

Attacks:

      Unarmed Melee: 9 vs AC [+9 strength]; damage 1[W]=1d4+2 [strength]
     
      Duelist's +3 Katar: +15 vs AC [+9 strength] [+3 proficiency] [+3 enchament]; damage 1[W]=1d6+5
      [strength] [Enchament] 1 lb (Light blade) Off-hand, high crit (max + 2W damage on crit)
     
      Shurikens (x22): +15 vs AC [+11 dexterity] [+3 proficiency]; damage 1[W]=1d6 [rogue] +4 [dexterity]
      range 6/12 1/2 lb (Light blade) Light throwable
     
      Powers
      Riposte Strike +12w [dexterity] vs AC
      Sly Flourish +12w [dexterity] vs AC
      Positioning Strike +12w [dexterity] vs AC
      Blinding Barrage +12w [dexterity] vs AC
      Bait and Switch +12w [dexterity] vs will
      Clever Riposte +12w [dexterity] vs AC
      Cloud of Steel +12w [dexterity] vs AC
      Crimson Edge +12w [dexterity] vs fortitude
      Killer's Eye +12w [dexterity] vs reflex
      Tornado Strike +12w [dexterity] vs AC
      w Weapon-based power. Apply adjustments for proficiency, situation, feats, magic, etc.

Base Saving Throw: d20 vs 10

Encumberance 4e

Normal Load:
Heavy Load:
Maximum Drag Load
   150 lb.
300 lb.
750 lb.
   Encumberance 3.5

Light load:
Medium load:
Heavy load:
Lift over head:
Lift off ground:
Push or drag:
   66 lb. or less
67-133 lb.
134-200 lb.
200 lb.
400 lb.
1000 lb.

Languages:   Common; Goblin;

Skills:

      Acrobatics:   +17   = 5 [dexterity] + 7 [half level] + 5 [skill training]
      Arcana:   +9   = 2 [intelligence] + 7 [half level]
      Athletics:   +14   = 2 [strength] + 7 [half level] + 5 [skill training]
      Bluff:   +20   = 6 [charisma] + 7 [half level] + 2 [Tiefling] + 5 [class training]
      Diplomacy:   +13   = 6 [charisma] + 7 [half level]
      Dungeoneering:   +7   = 0 [wisdom] + 7 [half level]
      Endurance:   +11   = 1 [constitution] + 7 [half level] +3 [item bonus]
      Heal:   +7   = 1 [wisdom] + 7 [half level]
      History:   +9   = 2 [intelligence] + 7 [half level]
      Insight:   +7   = 0 [wisdom] + 7 [half level]
      Intimidate:   +18   = 6 [charisma] + 7 [half level] + 5 [class training]
      Nature:   +7   = 0 [wisdom] + 7 [half level]
      Perception:   +14   = 0 [wisdom] + 7 [half level] + 2 [alertness] + 5 [class training]
      Religion:   +9   = 2 [intelligence] + 7 [half level]
      Stealth:   +19   = 5 [dexterity] + 7 [half level] + 2 [Tiefling] + 5 [class training]
      Streetwise:   +18   = 6 [charisma] + 7 [half level] + 5 [class training]
      Thievery:   +17   = 5 [dexterity] + 7 [half level] + 5 [class training]

Feats:

      Alertness   
      Backstabber   
      Press the Advantage   
      Quickdraw   
      Skill Training -- Acrobatics   
      Skill Training -- Athletics   
      Weapon Proficiency -- Katar   
      Evasion   
      Secret Stride   

At-Will:

      Basic Melee Attack: By weapon, damage 1[W]+2 [strength]
      Basic Ranged Attack: By weapon, damage 1[W]+5 [dexterity]
      Bull Rush: +9 [strength] vs fortitude
      Grab: +9 [strength] vs reflex
      Move grabbed target: +9 [strength] vs fortitude
      Escape: +17 [acrobatics] vs reflex / +14 [athletics] vs fortitude
      Riposte Strike [Level 1]
      Sly Flourish [Level 1]
      Great Leap [Level 2 Utility][move action]
      Chameleon [Level 6 Utility][immediate interrupt]

      Other Standard Actions:   Administer a potion; Aid another; Charge [+1 to basic melee attack or bull
      rush]; Coup de grace; Equip / stow shield; Ready an action; Total defense; Sustain standard action

      Other Move Actions:   Crawl; Run [speed 8]; Stand up; Shift; Squeeze; Walk

      Other Minor Actions:   Draw / sheathe weapon; Drink a potion; Drop prone; Load a crossbow; Open /
      close a door; Pick up an item; Retrieve / stow an item; Sustain minor action

      Other Immediate Action:   Readied action

      Other Opportunity Action: Opportunity attack

      Other Free Actions:   Drop held items; End a grab; Talk

      Other Non-Actions:   Delay

Encounter Powers:

       Second Wind
       Spend an Action Point [free action, not in surprise round]
       Infernal Wrath [Tiefling][minor action]
       Positioning Strike [Level 1]
       Bait and Switch [Level 3]
       Cloud of Steel [Level 7]
       Killer's Eye [Shadow Assassin Level 11]
       Tornado Strike [Level 13]

Daily Powers:

       Blinding Barrage [Level 1]
       Clever Riposte [Level 5]
       Crimson Edge [Level 9]
       Certain Freedom [Level 10 Utility][move action]
       Bad Idea, Friend [Shadow Assassin Level 12 Utility]

Tiefling

    * +2 Intelligence, +2 Charisma (already included)
    * +2 Bluff, +2 Stealth
    * Bloodhunt
    * Fire Resistance 5 + 1/2 level
    * Infernal Wrath

Rogue

    * First Strike
    * Rogue Weapon Talent
    * This rogue chose the artful dodger style.
    * Sneak Attack [once per round with combat advantage]

Shadow Assassin

    * Shadow Assassin's Action [Level 11]
    * Shadow Assassin's Riposte [Level 11]
    * Bloody Evisceration [Level 16]
    * Killer's Eye [paragon attack 11]
    * Bad Idea, Friend [paragon utility 12]
    * Final Blow [paragon attack 20]
   

Cutter's Equipment:

       +27 lb
         +2 lb
         +5 lb
         +2 lb
         +1 lb
         +5 lb
         +4 lb
         +4 lb
        +10 lb
         +2 lb
         +1 lb
         +1 lb
         _____
Total: 64 lb   

      Weapons / Armor / Shield (from above)
      Backpack
      Bedroll
      Caltrops
      Case (for map or scroll)
      Chalk
      Crowbar
      Flint and steel
      Grappling hook
      Ink vial
      Ink pen
      Paper sheets x6
      Rations (1 day) x4
      Rope (50', silk) x2
      Sunrods x2
      Whetstone
      Thieves' tools

       Magic items:

       Weapon: Duelist's +3 Katar
       Level: 13
       Enhancement: +3 Attack rolls and damage rolls
       Critical: +3d6 damage, or +3d8 damage if you have combat advantage
       Power (Daily): Minor Action. You have combat advantage against the next creature you attack with
       this weapon on this turn.

       Armor: Deathcut Armor+3
       Level: 15
       Enhancement: +3 AC
       Property: Resist 5 necrotic.
       Property: Resist 5 poison.
       Power (Daily • Necrotic): Immediate Reaction. You can use this power when an enemy hits you with a
       melee attack. Deal 2d10 + Charisma modifier necrotic damage to that enemy.
       
       Neck:Cloak of Survival +3
       Level: 14
       Enhancement: +3 Fortitude, Reflex, and Will
       Property: Gain a +3 item bonus to Endurance checks.
       Property: Gain resist 5 cold
       Property: Gain resist 5 fire.

       Item: Keoghtom’s Ointment
       Level: 12
       Price: 13000 gp
       Wondrous Item
       Power (Daily • Healing): Standard Action. Apply this substance to yourself or an adjacent ally. That
       creature automatically ends one disease or poison effect that a save can end or regains one healing
       surge (your choice).

       Arms:
       Feet:
       Hands:
       Head:
       Ring:
       Ring:
       Waist:       
             

Resistances: Fire 17, Necrotic 5, Cold 5, Poison 5

Action Point Tally:

Milestone  /  /  /

Death Saving Throw Failures:   

More about Cutter:

'Cutter' is one urban tieflings who were orphan ever since he was born. With no parents he was raised by thugs, thieves and murderers of the dark alleys of the metropolis. He learned early in life he had no hesitation to kill what he wants but he did not kill out of desire but from need. Although if he was angered he does not hesitate to kill the offender. Soon legend of 'blood cutter' started run in the streets. Known for devastating use of katar in close combat he soon became renowned shadow assassin in the streets. However soon his reputation growed so high that wild rumors start ed spread out, silly rumors which did hold any meaning of truth but in fearful hearths of among his friends they grown root and soon rumors became a 'fact'. It is unknown what rumous or story was involved but it ended up in that Cutter butchered his own guild members in self defense and killed them so he is left alone. When dark alleys run into chaos from power vacuum when powerful thieves guild was brought down Cutter left the city and started aimlessly wander as mysterious mercenary.

[Jeramiahh]

Wonderful; that's three characters submitted, a fighter, a rogue, and a ranger, giving us two strikers and a defender. I'd definitely recommend a controller; I like minions, and plan to use them, regularly.

[schnookums]

Well, I'm working on a Wizard that I'd like to play, should be done tomororw

[kongming]

In that case, may I recommend that you pick "Cloud of Knives" for the at-will, schnookums? That one is a burst 1 (3*3 area) that deals a small amount of automatic damage to all in the area when they begin their turn there. That could seriously cause 9 minions at a time (if they hang around in clusters) to explode.

So, I made up a few characters to choose from:

*Ullainkahansonvansonjansontallenhallensvadonsvanson (Yes, I'll choose a more sensible name later)
Minotaur Beatdown Cleric/Angelic Avenger of Kord

She hails from the Far Northern reaches, where they haven't heard of this "Sun" that people keep speaking about, and where the most common export is crime. However, being from one of the few communities that actually encouraged people to uphold notions of valour and to hold firm against the darkness plaguing the lands. There is probably a strong Kantian leaning, modified by a general "Right makes right" motto (specifically, "there are monsters out there that, by existing, are causing strife. If they knew what was right they would stop existing so as to make the world a better place. Go forth and help them in their journey to stop existing." - added to this, it is in fact a net benefit for evildoers to be slain: the evil person receives their judgement in a plane that rewards evil, and other people are freed from the evil actions of that individual).

At any rate, having spent quite some time helping to hold off the scourge of the undead, and venturing out to stab monsters in the face and take their belongings, she has learned not only to check the ceiling first, but also that Kord wishes for her to assist the more Southern regions. With that, she packed her belongings and headed out, only to be surprised at how short even the humans are in this new place.

Fantastic at melee and handing bonuses out to allies (including an At-will granting allies +7 to hit, which is equal to what their own stat should be granting them if they know what's good for them*), decent at healing and Bullysaurus tactics as well.

*Your attack stat is going to be 24. No exceptions, save for those who have 2 attack stats. Those will each be 22.

---

*Sierra Illuvien
Elf Laser Cleric/Radiant Servant (Avandra)

No backstory really thought up yet. Fantastic at mid-ranged combat (laser attacks especially, even moreso when in the 7-10 square sweet spot of "half the enemies can't attack beyond 6" if we can just keep them immobilised), and great at healing. If someone gets a disease of level 19 or less? She can actually cure it without being able to kill them outright (although they had best be at full health at time of curing).

Also pretty good at handing out the odd bonus, and intimidating foes.

---

I had also made a Warlock up (specifically, a half-elf Starlock with a vague focus in minion-popping), but we already have 2 strikers, if we have to use WotC's poorly thought out (and even worse-implemented) class role terminology, and it's good to have someone with a bit of extra healing capacity.

[Jefepato]

*Your attack stat is going to be 24. No exceptions, save for those who have 2 attack stats. Those will each be 22.

As currently written, my fighter has STR and CON both 22, mostly because natural 18s cost a ridiculous number of points.  (When your job is really to take hits while everyone else kills enemies, isn't HP at least as important as damage?)

[Caustic]

First draft, pending approval?

Marius
Male Human Paladin of Sehanine / Astral weapon
Level 14
Unaligned

Strength   21   (+5)
Dexterity   13   (+1)
Constitut.   15   (+2)
Intelligen.   13   (+1)
Wisdom   17   (+3)
Charisma   17   (+3)

Height:   6' 2"     Weight:   220 lb     Skin:   Tan     Eyes:   Gray
Hair:   Black; Wavy; Beardless

Maximum Hit Points: 108
Bloodied: 54
Surge Value: 27
Surges / Day: 12 [includes constitution modifier]
                 
Size: Medium
Speed: 5 squares [includes armor penalty]
Vision: Normal
Initiative:   1d20 +8   = + 7 [half level] + 1 [dexterity]
Base Strength Attack:   1d20 +12   = + 7 [half level + 5 [strength]
Base Dexterity Attack:   1d20 +8   = + 7 [half level + 1 [dexterity]
Base Constitution Attack:   1d20 +9   = + 7 [half level + 2 [constitution]
Base Intelligence Attack:   1d20 +8   = + 7 [half level + 1 [intelligence]
Base Wisdom Attack:   1d20 +10   = + 7 [half level + 3 [wisdom]
Base Charisma Attack:   1d20 +10   = + 7 [half level + 3 [charisma]
Armor Class:   28   = 10 + 7 [half level] + 8 [plate] + 2 [heavy shield] + 1 [combat anticipation]
Fortitude Defense:   27   = 10 + 7 [half level] + 1 [Human] + 1 [combat anticipation] + 1 [paladin] +2 [great fortitude] + 5 [strength]
Reflex Defense:   23   = 10 + 7 [half level] + 1 [Human] + 1 [combat anticipation] + 1 [paladin] + 1 [dexterity] + 2 [heavy shield]
Will Defense:   25   = 10 + 7 [half level] + 1 [Human] + 1 [combat anticipation] + 1 [paladin] + 2 [iron will] + 3 [wisdom]
Armor: Plate (50 lb)

Shield: Large (15 lb)

Attacks:
  Unarmed Melee: 12 vs AC [+12 strength]; damage 1[W]=1d4+5 [strength]
  Dagger: +15 vs AC [+12 strength] [+3 proficiency]; damage 1[W]=1d4+5 [strength] range 5/10 1 lb Off-hand, light throwable
     Thrown: +11 vs AC [+8 dexterity] [+3 proficient, damage 1d4+1 [dexterity]
  Flail: +14 vs AC [+12 strength] [+2 proficiency]; damage 1[W]=1d10+5 [strength] 5 lb (Flail) Versatile
  Longsword: +15 vs AC [+12 strength] [+3 proficiency]; damage 1[W]=1d8+5 [strength] 4 lb (Heavy blade) Versatile
  Bolstering Strike +10w [charisma] vs AC
  Enfeebling Strike +10w [charisma] vs AC
  Holy Strike +12w [strength] vs AC
  Martyr's Retribution +12w [strength] vs AC
  Thunder Smite +12w [strength] vs AC
  One Stands Alone +10i [charisma] vs will
  Radiant Pulse +10i [charisma] vs fortitude
  Carving a Path of Light +12w [strength] vs AC
  Radiant Charge +12w [strength] vs AC
  Renewing Smite +10w [charisma] vs AC

Base Saving Throw: d20 + 1 [human perseverance] vs 10

Normal Load: 210 lb.
Heavy Load: 420 lb.
Maximum Drag Load: 1050 lb.

Languages:   Common; Elven

Skills:
  Acrobatics:   +6   = 1 [dexterity] + 7 [half level] + 2 [jack of all trades] -2 [armor]-2 [shield]
  Arcana:       +10   = 1 [intelligence] + 7 [half level] + 2 [jack of all trades]
  Athletics:    +10   = 5 [strength] + 7 [half level] + 2 [jack of all trades] -2 [armor]-2 [shield]
  Bluff:          +12   = 3 [charisma] + 7 [half level] + 2 [jack of all trades]
  Diplomacy:   +15   = 3 [charisma] + 7 [half level] + 5 [class training]
  Dungeoneering:   +12   = 3 [wisdom] + 7 [half level] + 2 [jack of all trades]
  Endurance:   +10   = 2 [constitution] + 7 [half level] + 5 [class training]-2 [armor]-2 [shield]
  Heal:          +15   = 3 [wisdom] + 7 [half level] + 5 [class training]
  History:         +13   = 1 [intelligence] + 7 [half level] + 5 [class training]
  Insight:       +12   = 3 [wisdom] + 7 [half level] + 2 [jack of all trades]
  Intimidate:   +12   = 3 [charisma] + 7 [half level] + 2 [jack of all trades]
  Nature:       +12   = 3 [wisdom] + 7 [half level] + 2 [jack of all trades]
  Perception:   +14   = 3 [wisdom] + 7 [half level] + 2 [alertness] + 2 [jack of all trades]
  Religion:      +13   = 1 [intelligence] + 7 [half level] + 5 [class training]
  Stealth:      +6   = 1 [dexterity] + 7 [half level] + 2 [jack of all trades] -2 [armor]-2 [shield]
  Streetwise:   +12   = 3 [charisma] + 7 [half level] + 2 [jack of all trades]
  Thievery:     +6   = 1 [dexterity] + 7 [half level] + 2 [jack of all trades] -2 [armor]-2 [shield]

Feats:
  Alertness   
  Human Perseverance   
  Jack of all Trades   
  Action Recovery   
  Combat Anticipation   
  Danger Sense   
  Great Fortitude   
  Inescapable Force   
  Iron Will   
  Mettle   

At-Will:
  Basic Melee Attack: By weapon, damage 1[W]+5 [strength]
  Basic Ranged Attack: By weapon, damage 1[W]+1 [dexterity]
  Bull Rush: +12 [strength] vs fortitude
  Grab: +12 [strength] vs reflex
  Move grabbed target: +12 [strength] vs fortitude
  Escape: +6 [acrobatics] vs reflex / +10 [athletics] vs fortitude
  Divine Challenge [Paladin][minor action]
  Lay On Hands [Paladin][minor action]
  Bolstering Strike [Level 1]
  Enfeebling Strike [Level 1]
  Holy Strike [Level 1]

Other Standard Actions:   Administer a potion; Aid another; Charge [+1 to basic melee attack or bull rush]; Coup de grace; Equip / stow shield; Ready an action; Total defense; Sustain standard action
Other Move Actions:   Crawl; Run [speed 7]; Stand up; Shift; Squeeze; Walk
Other Minor Actions:   Draw / sheathe weapon; Drink a potion; Drop prone; Load a crossbow; Open / close a door; Pick up an item; Retrieve / stow an item; Sustain minor action
Other Immediate Action:   Readied action
Other Opportunity Action:   Opportunity attack
Other Free Actions:   Drop held items; End a grab; Talk
Other Non-Actions:   Delay

Encounter Powers:
  Second Wind
  Spend an Action Point [free action, not in surprise round]
  Channel Divinity: Divine Mettle [paladin][minor action]
  Channel Divinity: Divine Strength [paladin][minor action]
  Thunder Smite [Level 7]
  Carving a Path of Light [Astral Weapon Level 11]
  Pray for More [Astral Weapon Level 12][free action]
  Radiant Charge [Level 13]
  Renewing Smite [Level 13]

Daily Powers:
  Martyr's Retribution [Level 5]
  Wrath of the Gods [Level 6 Utility][minor action]
  One Stands Alone [Level 9]
  Radiant Pulse [Level 9]
  Noble Shield [Level 10 Utility][immediate interrupt]
  Turn the Tide [Level 10 Utility]

Human
   One extra at-will power from your class (already included)
   One bonus feat at 1st level (already included)
   One bonus skill from the skill class list (already included)
   +1 to fortitude, reflex, and will defenses

Paladin
   Channel Divinity -- Divine Strength
   Channel Divinity -- Divine Mettle
   Divine Challenge
   Lay On Hands

Astral Weapon
   Astral Judgment [Level 11]
   Astral Rejuvenation [Level 11]
   Courage from on High [Level 16]
   Carving a Path of Light [paragon attack 11]
   Pray for ore [paragon utility 12]
   Astral Whirlwind [paragon attack 20]

Marius's Equipment:
Backpack
Bedroll
Bell
Candle
Chalk
Fishhook
Flint and steel
Lantern (hooded)
Mirror
Oil flasks x1
Pouch (belt) x1
Rations (1 day) x10
Rope (50', hempen) x1
Sewing needle
Soap
Sunrods x2
Waterskins x1
Holy symbol (silver)

Total
Magic items:
  Weapon:
  Weapon:
  Weapon:
  Weapon:
  Armor:  lvl 14: Black Iron Armor: Plate +3 (resist fire 10, necrosis 10)
  Shield:  lvl 13: Shield of Protection (paragon) (resist 15)
  Arms:
  Feet:  (to be determined)
  Hands:
  Head:
  Neck: Holy Symbol of Battle +3
  Ring:
  Ring:
  Waist:
 
 
Resistances:
Action Point Tally:
Daily Item Powers Per Day: Epic Tier             Milestone   /   /   / 
Death Saving Throw Failures:     
More about Marius:
Orphaned and raised on the catechisms and liturgy of the church, Marius-- a bastard child of little worth, learned a degree of self worth built upon sanctimonious self-assurance and the promise of nobility's intrinsic reward. As a young boy, he was found barely alive and wandering the woods, soaked in days-dried blood and dirt. He was taken in by a remote monastic order of Moradin, where paladins and clerics were trained for service to their deity apart from the civilization they would grow to serve and protect with their lives.

Raised with fanciful dreams of the grand designs of order and justice within the lawful bounds of city walls, in his tenth year he was sent to join an order within the walls of a great city-- and found, very quickly, that his faith-- in humanity, urbane culture, the magic of civilization-- was misplaced. He became an errand boy in the schemes of a corrupted priest, and was made to assist in dark rites, the execution of heinous abuses of power, and the concealment of theft, extortion, and murder. Before he could become a true acolyte to the dark priesthood, he fled-- spurning the civilization he'd been raised to believe in, and returned to the woods where he'd been found, nearly dead, almost ten years prior.

He found it in ruins... the church's corrupt prior had raised enough support through lies and manipulation to send an expedition to enact its destruction. And there, among the charred ruins of the monastery that had saved him, he abandoned hope of aid, and he wandered, for a week, in the woods alone. He was found by an outriding group of elven scouts, who bestowed upon him a mercy of sorts-- in their calm, wizened way, he saw how their neutrality, their patience, and their devotion to their own gave them a purity, a discipline of righteousness, that transcended 'law' and 'madness,' 'good' and 'evil'. For in the great circle, the two ends meet at some point, and one bleeds into the next.

He spent the next six years of his life living among them, studying with them-- and was chosen. The decision was natural enough, would it have been his to make, but it was not: Sehanine's path chose him, and stirred in him passions, insight, and determination he never had. Whether simply for his powers as an agent of destruction or for some higher destiny, he is not sure-- but since that moment, he's walked a lonely road since then, seeking balance, secrecy, and revelry-- meting justice with a blade where evil takes hold and chiseling the foundations from overzealous empires' ambition.

[Zaer Darkwail]

*Your attack stat is going to be 24. No exceptions, save for those who have 2 attack stats. Those will each be 22.

Besides combat this game is about also skill challenges. So if you spend all points to one or two stats you end up with bad scores for skills and also for survival all classes should have good Con for healing surges alone which all healing powers use.

Anycase I am happy with my scores which is 15 Str (for raw damage in melee attacks and few powers), 20 Dex (hitting chance with all rogue powers, and damage with ranged) and Cha 22 which is needed in few powers as Artful Dodger and giving good will defense (and social charm ofc).

Anycase pick the heavy healer version, diseases and poisons will be more serious threat than physical combat and cleric with alot healing would help keep team alive. Even as heavy healer you can pick two or even three good encounter powers (perhaps one daily power).

[kongming]

Besides combat this game is about also skill challenges.

Skill challenges don't work. At all. The math is so badly fucked up that if they ever become relevant, a better solution is actually to say "Nah, we go and do something else instead."

In general, we can assume that for your standard "doing things with skills", there are static DCs, and a level 14 character with training can seriously do them at those static DCs - otherwise, by following the rules as written, you're going into crazy town where, if you climb up a rope at level 3, gain 10 levels then jump back down, you might be unable to climb that very same rope.

So basically, the skill system in general is made of fail, and skill challenges are even worse. I'm certainly not paying attention to them (other than "Removing disease without killing my allies" and "Cutting combat time in half (with Intimidate) if it seems to be taking too long".

Anycase pick the heavy healer version, diseases and poisons will be more serious threat than physical combat and cleric with alot healing would help keep team alive. Even as heavy healer you can pick two or even three good encounter powers (perhaps one daily power).

Oh, don't get me wrong - even the Beatdown Cleric took a few of the Cure spells and similar. When a class has the ability "Good at healing their friends", it's a bit rude to ignore those abilities altogether and make life difficult for your friends.

It's basically a matter of "One is much better at Heal and Intimidate, restores more HP when healing, and blasts people from a distance for radiant damage" and "The other fights in melee, granting big bonuses to hit".

That being said, I am leaning towards the healer - better at keeping everyone alive (especially when we have a number of characters who are likely to be in the face of the enemies), actually isn't in the thick of melee combat (making room there for others) and also, slightly better at making minions explode.

[Jeramiahh]

Hey, KM... I think you've been reading Intimidate wrong. Aside from the fact the DC to get them to surrender is nigh absurd, since they automatically get a +10 bonus to their defense, if you fail, and you will most of the time, "you can't try again against that target during this encounter."

Skill challenges=/=skill checks of old 3e. I've already got one set up for an early encounter that should prove interesting, and in the terms of that encounter, it's a question of where your actions are most useful. Use them on the challenge, and it's a gamble that could pay off incredibly well, or don't, and just rely on attacks, like every other fight. You also seem to assume that skill checks use a scaling system; I'm looking at the DC to climb a rope, right now... 10. A flat, unmodified 10. In fact, as you gain levels, the check *gasp* becomes easier, due to the 1/2 level bonus. Snce, y'know, you're more powerful and skilled. Hell, an 18th level character CAN'T fail to climb a rope, unlike, say, a 3e character. Who could, regardless of level.

I'm fine with whichever character you want to play, and don't think I'm going to make this easy; I'm going to challenge all of the basic assumptions of 4e you and many others seem to hold. I'll show you how pushing and pulling can be useful, how skill challenges are meant to work, why going nova in the first round works against you, and more. You may think you've broken the system, but you ain't seen nothing yet. This is the game I've been looking for.

EDIT: Got sidetracked, there, forgot to say what I meant to. >_< With Caustic's paladin, that makes for two defenders and two strikers; assuming KM and Schnookums get theirs rolled up, that's the cast and crew. I'll post the game... tomorrow, probably, get everything up and rolling.

[kongming]

Incidentally, I know I'm behind in my posting at the moment, but it's a case of "I feel like I can't be arsed, at the moment".

It should pass soon enough.'

Okay Jera, the skill challenges as presented in the book are fucked, but I'll assume you're handling them in a way that works just fine. I think Mearls may have even mentioned that they don't work (in a manner that made it sound like it wasn't his fault, because he's a colossal douchebag like that). And I'm not assuming you're making it easy - trust me, any clever trick I think of/am told on TGD is not a "this breaks the game and wins it.", it's either "This is kind of funny and cute." (a half-elf feylock getting their powers from a pact with their own mother) or "this is the best way to not get screwed by Mearls' and Collins' immense cock-ups".

Anyway, here is the character sheet:

Sierra Illuvien
Elf Laser Cleric/Radiant Servant of Avandra

Str 14 +2
Dex 18 +4
Con 09 -1
Int 11 +0
Wis 24 +7
Cha 16 +3

Speed: 9 squares (45 feet)
Init: +8 (+4 Dex, +4 feat)
HP: 96/96
Healing Surges: 6/6
Surge Value: 25
Bloodied Value: 48

AC: 20 (+4 Dex +6 Armour)
Fort: 15 (+2 Str +3 Item)
Ref: 19 (+4 Dex +2 Feat +3 Item)
Will: 22 (+7 Wis +2 Class +3 Item)

Languages:
Common, Elven

Racial:
+2 Nature & Perception
Fey Origin (counts as Fey)
Group Awareness (+1 Perception to others)
Wild Step (ignore difficult terrain when Shifting)
Elven Accuracy (see "Encounter")

Proficient:
Weapons: Simple, Longbow, Shortbow
Armour: Cloth, Leather, Hide, Chainmail
Other: Holy Symbols

Class Abilities:
Channel Divinity 1/Encounter
-Divine Fortune (Free: gain +1 to an attack or save)
-Turn Undead (Standard: Divine/Implement/Radiant, Close Burst 5, +7 vs Will of Undead, 3d10+9 radiant and push 6 + immobile 1)
Healer's Lore (+7 to all abilities with healing type, already factored in)
Healing Word (2/encounter: Minor: me or ally in Close Burst 10, target spends Surge and heals Surge+3d6+7)
Ritual Casting
Illuminating Attacks (radiant attacks crit on 19-20)
Radiant Action (when spending an AP for an extra action, 1 enemy in 5 squares takes ongoing radiant 14 (save ends))

Skills:
Religion +12
Arcana +12
Heal +19
Diplomacy +17
Nature +09
Perception +16
Intimidate +20

Feats:
Astral Fire (+2 damage on Fire/Radiant)
Elven Precision
Improved Initiative
Skill Training: Intimidate
Skill Focus: Intimidate
Toughness
Fleet-Footed
Lightning Reflexes
Evasion

At Will:
Lance of Faith (Standard: +10 vs Ref (range 5), 1d8+12 radiant, one ally gets +2 to hit that target)
Sacred Flame (Standard: +10 vs Ref (range 5), 1d6+12 radiant, one ally either gains 10 HP or makes a save)

Encounter:
Elven Accuracy (Free: Reroll an attack roll, use the new result +2)
Solar Wrath (Standard: +7 vs Will (close burst 8) all enemies, 3d8+9 radiant, undead/demons Stunned until end of my next turn)
Plague of Doom (Standard: +10 vs Fort (range 10), 3d8+10 damage, -3 to all defences for 1 turn)
Break the Spirit (Standard: +10 vs Will (range 10), 2d8+12 radiant, -3 penalty on attacks for 1 turn)
Daunting Light (Standard: +10 vs Ref (range 10), 2d10+12 radiant, Effect: 1 ally gains combat advantage against target (1 turn))

Daily:
Flamestrike (Standard: +10 vs Ref (burst 2 in 10), 2d10+12 fire and ongoing 17 fire (save), miss: 1/2 and no ongoing)
Consecrated Ground (Standard: Close Burst 1, move 3 as Move, Sustain Minor, enemies starting in it take 1d6+5 radiant,
bloodied self/allies in it regain 11 HP)
Cascade of Light (Standard: +10 vs Will (range 10), 3d8+12 radiant, target gains vuln. 5 to my attacks (save), miss 1/2)

Utility:
Healing Sun (Daily: Standard, close burst 2, allies ending gain 15 HP, demon/undead enter/start take 1d10+5 radiant)
-Sustain Minor, ends on my turn if bloodied
Mass Cure Light Wounds (Daily: Standard: self + allies in close burst 5 heal 1 Surge +10 HP (without spending a Surge)
Bastion of Health (Encounter: Minor: self or ally (range 10) can spend a Surge, +10 HP)
Divine Aid (Encounter: Standard: self or ally in 5 makes a save at +3)

Rituals:
Gentle Repose
Animal Messenger
Remove Disease

Equipment:
lvl 13: +3 Elven Battle Hide (+6 AC, +5 to save vs Slow/Immobile, Daily: Minor: +2 Speed until end of next turn)
lvl 14: +3 Holy Symbol of Victory (+3 to hit/damage, +3d8 on criticals, Daily: Free action, score a crit? Get an Action Point)
lvl 9 (4.2K): Boots of Striding (+1 Speed)
lvl 7 (2.6K): Circlet of Authority (+2 Diplomancy and Intimidate)
lvl 15: +3 Stormwalker's Cloak (+3 to Fort/Ref/Will, Resist Lightning/Thunder 10, Daily: Minor, 1 round, attackers take 3d6)
lvl 4 (840): Everlasting Provisions
lvl 2 (520): Belt of Vigour +1 (+1 to Surge value)
lvl 8 (360): Ritual

Holy Symbol: a spherical, golden incense burner, dangling from a chain and covered in intricate runes and prayers. It would make a terrible weapon, so does not count as a flail or anything. The pale smoke that wafts from it is calming to Sierra, reminding her of the tranquillity of home.

[Hikari]

Kongming, I don't mean to tell you how to play the game, but...  do you think you're taking this a mite too seriously, maybe?  That seems to be the major disconnect that you (and many other players) have with 4E.  The game is designed for people to come at it from the approach of, "Let's meet some interesting people and characters, have an adventure and enjoy ourselves."  I know, it's a bit of culture-shock coming from the 3.X design philosophy, which at times veered sharply into territory of being a 'character design' challenge that bred a very competitive breed of gamers as a result.

No, 4E isn't going to give you the same level of challenge or possibilities for 'character optimization' that 3E did.  It's just not designed for that, really.  To put it another way, whereas 3E was the World of Warcraft--all about optimizing your talent build and getting the best gear and comparing tactical notes with the vast world of online players to prove your acumen--4E is more like Rock Band.  No one's going to pretend like the Drums, Bass, Guitar, and Vocals are all equally challenging or able to contribute as many points to the total team score...  but no one really cares, because it's all about finding the instrument you like to play and then having a good time together, you know?

It's a party game.  Try to relax.  Have some fun!

[kongming]

Oddly enough, Hikari, you've got it entirely the wrong way round. It used to be "Come up with a character idea. Now, make some stats that represent the character, and go have fun. Interact, play, maybe stab something in the face and take its belongings in a sack."

Now it's "This game is about combat. You can't actually affect the world at large, you can only make things die. You do this by attacking things that have defences that scale faster than you can make your attack bonuses scale (without relying on bonuses from friends), and that have HP scaling a billion times faster than your damage. In the end, you make a tape recording of your voice saying which at-will you use over and over again."

So now, because it's only combat, and you practically have to take a certain build path in order to not suck at your job, it really is like high-end World of Warcraft. Which I don't play. Whereas in 3E, you could throw some numbers at a wall, mess around and have fun. It used to be a party game, now it's presented as being Serious Business, and what used to be an optional approach and hobby in 3E (optimisation, playing with numbers et.) is now mandatory.

Basically, it means that you need a good DM to make the game fun for you, against the desire of Mearls and Collins. Yes, that's why I'm on board here, because I think Jera is one of the few who can do that, and want to be there when it happens.

Oh, and I totally mean to tell you how to play the game. Not this specific individual one, but I'm getting amazingly sick of people not being able to analyse a game by looking at it, making justifications for it in an attempt to explain away problems, and not seeing huge gaping problems that are there, despite usually being quite smart. So I fully intend on telling people how to play D&D: which edition to play for what they want out of a game, what they can't do by picking a certain edition, what's wrong with their choice and playstyle, and why they have to do certain things in certain ways when playing certain systems.

[Zaer Darkwail]

It's true that 4th edition is very combat heavy and even videogamish in style (and no much RP oppoturnity besides what you can pull without it being skill challenge). But so far 4th edition is new to me so I see how it goes without having fully 'grind and crunch' entirely focused combat build (I just cant think any brilliant assassin having less than 12 in Int score, ofc tiefling racial helping boost it nicely into 14).

Also I think it is bit harsh that you tell how others to play game and DnD. Of course I myself sometiems become frustrated with my players as DM if player is completely new to the game but I bear it and wait person to learn. But in end DnD should be all about (in RL at elast) go together at game table and have some laughs and funs and not bitter sweet tears and loud curses when you fail do something (what I do when I play retri palladin in WoW which is atm lowest in food chain in raid and solo PvP wise).

[Jeramiahh]

Actually, KM, I'm going to call bullshit on that, flat out.

Whereas in 3E, you could throw some numbers at a wall, mess around and have fun.

That's the one that just makes me look at you like you are absolutely insane. Believe me. I played with those people. We had to talk a guy out of taking Alertness. Or Toughness. Or playing a rogue/wizard/fighter multiclass, because he wanted to do everything.

In 3e, there are several billion different character builds. About 1% of them work. Call me on that all you want; you and I read the same sort of things, and we know that 3e's ALL about character optimization. And there's a LOT you can do to fuck up a character. 4e doesn't have that; even if you pick abilities at near random, you're still going to have a character who can contribute. FAR more than the same shotgun-designed character in 3e.

This game is about combat. You can't actually affect the world at large, you can only make things die. You do this by attacking things that have defences that scale faster than you can make your attack bonuses scale (without relying on bonuses from friends), and that have HP scaling a billion times faster than your damage. In the end, you make a tape recording of your voice saying which at-will you use over and over again

This one irks me, too. Where, in the 3e rules, can fighters, monks, paladins, rangers, rogues, barbarians, or any other non-magic using class "affect the world at large"? Where in 3e are there monsters that don't become exponentially more powerful as you level? When did any melee class do anything besides say "I move. I attack."? If nothing else, this is an IMPROVEMENT, since, y'know, more than 4 classes can actually DO something and actually contribute.

I want to get back to the 'affect the world at large' bit. Where, in the rules, does it actually say that your actions can have no impact on the world? Your class abilities don't allow you to summon a tsunami and change the coastline, anymore? You can't craft your own demiplane? Is that what you're bitching about?

Wait a minute... look here, there's a whole chapter dedicated to stupid shit like that, in the PHB! They're called RITUALS. They're for all of the shit that doesn't involve combat. What's this? There's not a specific spell for that? Then write it. Research it. Exactly like they suggest in 3e, but people conveniently forget that rule, too, for their asinine arguments.

I don't go into theoretical optimization; I am one of the people this game was pitched at. The 'rule of cool' should ALWAYS triumph over anything the rules say. Rule zero at work.

I avoided the 4e thread because I didn't want to argue this sort of thing, especially before I got my hands on my books. Honest to god, your arguments sound about as sound as Fred Phelps. Every single thing you're saying, I could turn right back around and throw into 3e's face, and be completely and utterly accurate. How much of 3e isn't focused on combat? 9/10 spells, nearly 100% of class features, most skills; and those that aren't? Were either worthless, or still exist.

And to add on to that, how does not having rules for something prevent you from doing it? My god, look! We have thousands of games on this site that AREN'T USING RULES! They can't do that! That's horrible! There's so many rules we could write for how they're supposed to be, we need to do this immediately! We don't have rules for people walking down stairs yet, what a travesty! We don't have rules covering the mundanities of life... look, there's no rule for using the restroom! Do people in the D&D world never need to go? WE NEED RULES FOR SHITTING NOW ASAP!

So what if you can't hit a monster every round, because your attack bonus isn't 20 over the enemies defense? You might actually miss! What a horrible tragedy that would be... it might mean you have to spend a whole extra five minutes on another round. I can understand why it's a concern in 3e; I mean, if your one action an hour came up as a failure, I'd be pissed, too. Not that it matters, the druid's just going to kill it when he gets around to it.

Believe me, I know where 3e's faults lie. I've seen them on both sides of the table. I've seen the bard who started bringing his iPod to the table, because 2/3 of his actions were "Well, I've got about a 10% chance to hit the enemy, so I guess I'll just sing." I've played the wizard who held up the slack for an entire team, winning more than one encounter pretty much either by myself, or enabling the team to win, by making the fight hopelessly easy. I've seen the fighter not even say anything on his turn, just pick up the die and roll, because we all know that's all he can do. I hate that. I hate every time a player feels worthless, like he's not contributing. I hate every time an encounter goes from difficult to absurdly easy with one spell in a manner it wasn't intended to be used. I hate every time a siege turns into a cherry picking contest because someone cast Entangle or Web, or every time the BBEG dies in one round, hell, the surprise round, because he fails a save or die. As a DM, that's frustrating, because you put hours of work into something, and as a player, it's frustrating, because it feels so anti-climactic. The best fights aren't the ones where one guy wins; it's the fight where the rogue sneaks into a building to take out the sniper raining death on the party, and manages to pull off an incredible solo fight, where he forces the equal level assassin to flee. It's the fight where the sorcerer lands a critical hit with his orb of frost, and saves the cleric from being coup-de-graced the next round. It's the fight where everyone has to blow all they've got to save the dying rogue from the purple worm's gullet before it kills him. That's what makes D&D fun, dammit.

And if you can't see that, if you can't embrace that, please, don't play.

[kongming]

4e doesn't have that; even if you pick abilities at near random, you're still going to have a character who can contribute.

Rubbish. They assume the players will optimise as much as possible, then set that as the balance point. Due to the way things scale, you need to constantly keep your attack stat as high as possible just so that you miss a little under half the time. All it takes in order to screw up is to say "I'm going to be an Eladrin Warlock" or "I'm going to be a fighter with less than 18 (after racial modifiers) Str to start with."

This one irks me, too. Where, in the 3e rules, can fighters, monks, paladins, rangers, rogues, barbarians, or any other non-magic using class "affect the world at large"?

The only one of those who is actually playing the game at high levels is the rogue, so the rest don't even count. The rogue uses UMD and thus does change the world itself. Casters make permanent things happen. I know those other classes can't, but that's a problem with those classes that can't do level-appropriate things. But a correct solution would be "Make them level-appropriate." instead of "Kneecap everyone else". Even so, you could raise an army with a feat (Leadership - the cohort is the bit that helps you in combat, the followers serve almost as a flavour thing - you couldn't take them into combat, but you could send the army out there). There's even a feat for "I have a castle worth a lot of money."

Where in 3e are there monsters that don't become exponentially more powerful as you level?

But the combat still lasts as long because the players become exponentially more powerful as well. Unless we're talking about those character classes that we've established don't even matter.

When did any melee class do anything besides say "I move. I attack."? If nothing else, this is an IMPROVEMENT, since, y'know, more than 4 classes can actually DO something and actually contribute.

Of course they were useless, and it's good that they were improved, if only by having new options, and new flavours of "I hit it". But at the expense of the formerly useful classes being reduced to different flavours of "I hit it"?

I want to get back to the 'affect the world at large' bit. Where, in the rules, does it actually say that your actions can have no impact on the world?

No ability to influence the attitudes of others - yes, it doesn't ban roleplaying it, but as soon as you play magical tea party and do things without the rules, suddenly it's "We're doing these things by not using the rules. Let's do that for the whole game." You can't even build a castle, not by magic, not by knowing what the cost would be to hire the labour and buy the bricks. 3E at least told you how much the finished thing would cost, and gave vague, half-assed guidelines for these. No permanent effects: summoning something that lasts longer than an encounter, creating a portal between X and Y for a real length of time, spells/abilities specifically designed for destroying the landscape, creating new landscape (growing instant trees or whatever), anything at all that doesn't involve the specific encounter you're in.

Your class abilities don't allow you to summon a tsunami and change the coastline, anymore? You can't craft your own demiplane? Is that what you're bitching about?

That'd be really nice for a very high level character to do. But I wouldn't mind being able to part the ocean for a couple of hours, craft my own house, fly outside of combat (when in-combat flight is the one that most GMs found annoying) or phone in a demon.

Wait a minute... look here, there's a whole chapter dedicated to stupid shit like that, in the PHB! They're called RITUALS. They're for all of the shit that doesn't involve combat. What's this? There's not a specific spell for that? Then write it. Research it. Exactly like they suggest in 3e, but people conveniently forget that rule, too, for their asinine arguments.

The rituals are shit and you know it. There's one that finds doors, another that opens them. There's one that detects lies, as long as you spend something like 10 minutes waving your hands and chanting (which might make someone suspicious). Cure disease has a good chance of killing the subject, which is great for an episode of House, but kind of shit for someone who's meant to be a legendary hero. You can also break items down to make new ones, and that is a part I like. I'll admit it's an improvement on 3E in that one spot there.

I don't go into theoretical optimization; I am one of the people this game was pitched at. The 'rule of cool' should ALWAYS triumph over anything the rules say. Rule zero at work.

The only theoretical optimisation I do is the "This would be hilarious" kind. Generally I optimise characters to play, and I enjoy the character creation process. I like rule of cool, sure, but the problem is that Rule of Cool should work *with* a system, instead of "Well... this is kind of crap. Let's instead make something cool happen."

Honest to god, your arguments sound about as sound as Fred Phelps.

I'm bad at arguing. I'd be more successful just linking to the various threads where people smarter and better at arguing than me, including an actual RPG designer, explain it all.

How much of 3e isn't focused on combat?

Most of it, I don't deny that. But you at least had an in-game, covered-by-the-rules option to do something else. And there are abilities for when you're out of combat and just bored and want to make something happen, leaving your mark on the world.

And to add on to that, how does not having rules for something prevent you from doing it?

It doesn't, but if the game rules only cover X, you feel encouraged to do X and the DM is in a better position to prevent you from doing anything other than X as part of a railroad. Besides that, see above where I point out that if you need to play Magical Tea Party anyway, you may as well do that for the whole game.

So what if you can't hit a monster every round, because your attack bonus isn't 20 over the enemies defense? You might actually miss!

Do you want me to make a chart showing your chances? Because the stat and the item bonus are all you're getting, you can easily end up in a situation where you miss more than half the time.

What a horrible tragedy that would be... it might mean you have to spend a whole extra five minutes on another round.

Exactly. And that's another five minutes added to the four hours it can take for one fight. Yes, that was from a playtest report.

I've seen the bard who started bringing his iPod to the table ... I've played the wizard who held up the slack for an entire team, winning more than one encounter pretty much either by myself ... I've seen the fighter not even say anything on his turn, just pick up the die and roll, because we all know that's all he can do.

Right. 3E had problems. People have spent quite some time fixing these problems. Some of these fixes actually work. For 4E, there are problems that need to be fixed, and people haven't had time to fix them, and these fixes are going to include "Completely re-write the power lists so they're not different flavoured attacks.", "Completely rewrite the skill challenge system" and "change the HP of all of the monsters."

I hate every time a player feels worthless, like he's not contributing.

Trust me, it's the same here. That's why I don't play any White Wolf games, ever. It's why I don't play the "You get to be useless!" classes in D&D. It's also why I have had my doubts about this one, because if 3d8+10 (~23.5) out of 500 HP is what someone is doing as their big trick, that constitutes feeling worthless in my books.

or every time the BBEG dies in one round, hell, the surprise round, because he fails a save or die.

Very annoying, and so far the best solution I've seen is one that I made, but I'd seriously prefer "FEAR MY WRA-*dad*" to "Seven weeks later, you chisel its final HP away."

And if you can't see that, if you can't embrace that, please, don't play.

Fine. I won't. You go ahead and run/play the game, and if you do enjoy it as much as you think you will, go join ENWorld, although I like to think you're too clever for them and even your blindness to the flaws of this couldn't stand the circlejerking and Mearls-worship they do. And if you discover I'm right, I'll do just a tiny bit of gloating.

I didn't even want to argue about this - it just put me in a shitty mood on that other thread, and it's done it again. But others brought things up, and I can't back down from it so I just had to respond. Needless to say, the arguments and frustration made by this, and the stupidity witnessed on ENWorld just makes me hope Collins and Mearls soon die of septic shock.

Now if you don't mind, I'm going to go and do something fun, like play the DS and take copious amounts of codeine. One day I might be on enough drugs to see what's so good about this game.

[Jeramiahh]

I was going to write a reply to this, but, ultimately, I agree. We don't need to get into a bitter battle over this, nitpciking each other apart until we're as bad as those idiots out there with nothing better to do than optimize. I will say that I think a few of your assumptions are off base, but I'm not going to get into it. You even agree with me that 3e's retarded in it's treatment of non-magic classes; I'm so glad that, once we hit a certain level, the majority of classes in the game stop playing. That makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

The same thing actually happened in WoW, believe it or not. 9 classes, and at the endgame, all of them had a very tiny box they got to play in. You were either specced exactly right, or you were useless. It got to the point on one infamous boss, which was designed to be killed by 40, was killed by 5; four clerics and a warrior. A lot of classes were told "we need you to leave so we can take someone actually useful along."

Then the expansion came, and things were fixed. Every class, and nearly every specialty, is viable, if not incredibly useful in a lot of cases. Everyone contributes, and more than just one ability. It's a LOT more fun, and that's how I see 4e.

I can see your point about attacks missing a lot... but, at the same time, this is a group game. You've got to factor in the bonuses other people grant; flanking, temporary buffs, debuffs, and just simply missing. I question your four hours comment; the battles I've run, even though they'd take a good, long while, in terms of rounds, went fast. Once we got the hang of it, we mowed through 6 encounters in 3, maybe 4 hours. Higher level gameplay might take longer, especially if you let enemies become HP punching bags, but I have no intention of allowing that.

Anyway, back to the game at hand, we're still gonna need more players, since not many groups are going to last long as just strikers and defenders.

[Zaer Darkwail]

I disagree about WoW Expansion. Retri pallas are still not liked in 5 man parties nor raids most of the time. Also some aspects of game are useless to certain speccs or classes so still 'balance' is word only used descripe one druid specc than WoW gaming.

But I agree party needs leader, a one which can heal and also controller for good ranged attacks (laser priest does fine both ranged and heal support). But not sure does KM want join this game anymore after this pointless pickering regarding DnD editions :(. We all know both editions have problems and we all share invidual view about what they are and how fix them.

[Hikari]

Eh, well...  like I was saying, let's just try to keep a, for lack of a better term, 'festive' atmosphere, right?  I guess if we continue to run short (either because no one else wants to play, or no one wants to play leaders/controllers) I can try a Warlord to open up another Striker spot.  I'm pretty adamant about not being a Wizard, though; playing the game as many years as I have, my Wizard concepts are seriously played out and dull by this point.  I just don't see enough difference between a Wizard I'd play in this edition and a Wizard from any other to have a 'new' one to run with.

I'm not sure how sold I am on the necessity of Wizards, anyway.  I guess I can see how they're handy, but if everyone else has AoE attacks anyway, it doesn't seem like they're strictly required.