Gender in gaming.

[Dice]

I just had this slide across my desk so to speak. I would like to know what people think. It is quite the read for someone very much on the privileged side of this situation.

http://latining.tumblr.com/post/141567276944/tabletop-gaming-has-a-white-male-terrorism-problem

My personal thoughts, when a cop is telling you "Find another hobby" to keep yourself safe, this world is in need of some quite self reflection time.

[Lustful Bride]

I just had this slide across my desk so to speak. I would like to know what people think. It is quite the read for someone very much on the privileged side of this situation.

http://latining.tumblr.com/post/141567276944/tabletop-gaming-has-a-white-male-terrorism-problem

My personal thoughts, when a cop is telling you "Find another hobby" to keep yourself safe, this world is in need of some quite self reflection time.

*sigh* Life is just full of shit and shitty people. But those guys are a special kind of bad. Seriously if you tell a 13 year old girl.
"Old enough to bleed, old enough to breed" you deserve a solid kick in the balls followed by a hammer to the teeth.

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide

All hail the glorious scripture of Shepard Book!

I feel for her but...I don't know. I want to say something but I am unsure what I want to say.
Though I don't like how they have phrased the article because it sounds like typical tumblrism type of stuff that preaches equality but hates on someone else at the same time.

Edit:Then again I was always taught to get mad instead of scared from anyone and that if someone calls you a name, you give them the finger and tell them to Fuck Off......so...I don't know maybe my mindset is not the right one. Plus...its on tumblr I take everything I see there with a grain of salt.

[Kythia]

Where would you prefer it was posted?  Assume for the moment every word is true, which website would have been acceptable and not caused the grain of salt?

[Lustful Bride]

Where would you prefer it was posted?  Assume for the moment every word is true, which website would have been acceptable and not caused the grain of salt?

*throws up arms* I honestly don't know.

Im not saying she's wrong just that it feels like just as much finger wagging at those who were not involved as much as sharing her tale.

[Aethereal]

        Luckily, I've not encountered something like that myself, nor had something like that happen to anyone I know face to face. Regrettable, that people apparently still do get things like that. I may write more on the topic when more awake.

        I do agree, though, that Tumblr has a bit of a bad reputation, though... It must, however, also be noted that the content on there is user-produced and doesn't go by the rulings of some structured unit.

        Tone is subjective - I did not like it much, either, but I'm giving that the benefit of doubt for the time being.

[Kythia]

It just strikes me as a real problem, is all.  Tumblr seems to me to be the absolute logical place to tell a story like that, genuinely can't think of a better one.  But, to you, it's grounds for suspicion that they have chosen to use it.  It makes their story less likely, or more unbelieveable.  So...what are people to do if they want to tell stories like this?  Putting them in the best possible place - as far as I'm aware - is a cause for unjustified suspicion, apparently.  What do you actually want to happen, Lustful Bride?

[Skynet]

I just had this slide across my desk so to speak. I would like to know what people think. It is quite the read for someone very much on the privileged side of this situation.

http://latining.tumblr.com/post/141567276944/tabletop-gaming-has-a-white-male-terrorism-problem

My personal thoughts, when a cop is telling you "Find another hobby" to keep yourself safe, this world is in need of some quite self reflection time.

Title is provocative, but a lot of the anecdotes are things that have happened.

Yes, there are bad apples in every community, but many geek communities have an historic problem of turning their eyes away when one of their one turns out to be a creep, an abuser, a rapist, etc.

However, it did get noticed by one of the employees, who pretty much responded in the worst possible manner.


Don't have the link, but Wyrd did reign this guy in and sent out a note about wanting to be a safe, inclusive space in typical corp speak. Edit: Link.



I'm just going to say it right here and now; the tabletop gaming scene really sucks about this, even worse than video games IMO. At least with GamerGate you had a lot of big companies condemning the toxicity. In table-top, not only do they get defended, there are more than a few self-publishers who rally around these folks. Some of them get hired on to do writing projects by bigger companies in spite of their history. Even the most rational and well-spoken arguments against prejudice and bigotry in the hobby get attacked all the same (especially if said voice is a woman or minority); in some cases go unnoticed unless someone tries stirring things up with provocative titles.

So there's one part of me which feels that the title is unnecessarily provocative, but another part of me goes "hey, she's shining light on this and getting noticed. Good." And after seeing and hearing about these kinds of negative experiences from people both inside and outside my regular gaming circles time and again, I'm leaning a lot towards the latter right now.

And here's a news article from 2014 relating to one of the Tumblr post's stories.

[Lustful Bride]

It just strikes me as a real problem, is all.  Tumblr seems to me to be the absolute logical place to tell a story like that, genuinely can't think of a better one.  But, to you, it's grounds for suspicion that they have chosen to use it.  It makes their story less likely, or more unbelieveable.  So...what are people to do if they want to tell stories like this?  Putting them in the best possible place - as far as I'm aware - is a cause for unjustified suspicion, apparently.  What do you actually want to happen, Lustful Bride?

*Throws up arms* I don't know, but that's just me, ive seen so much stuff on Tumblr that is either outright false, hypocritical, batshit insane, that when I see something like this I'm pretty much trained now to take some salt.

[TheGlyphstone]

Though the fact that she cites her lawsuit, and there is documentation about such, gives it a couple orders of magnitude more credibility than the average Tumblr screed, so it's very much worth at least trying to turn off that internal filter for a bit.

[Blythe]

My personal thoughts, when a cop is telling you "Find another hobby" to keep yourself safe, this world is in need of some quite self reflection time.

Yeah....that's pretty disturbing.  :-\

When I read things like this, my first thought is, "What can I do to make tabletop rpgs a hobby where people feel comfortable and safe?"

And most of my answers revolve around listening to people that are upset/afraid/harassed and not being quiet if/when I notice it. A lot of times challenging someone on their BS or if unable to do that, working to create one's own group that is inclusive and safe, goes a long way.

[Lustful Bride]

Though the fact that she cites her lawsuit, and there is documentation about such, gives it a couple orders of magnitude more credibility than the average Tumblr screed, so it's very much worth at least trying to turn off that internal filter for a bit.

I know, that's why I never said she was lying or the like.


Edit: I used a double negative and confused myself :P

[TheGlyphstone]

One thing that did jump out at me partway through:

“We’d have a lot less work if women just stayed away from dangerous, psychopathic losers.”

The quote is included to show how the police/authorities fall back on victim-blaming...but stuff like this is problematic in multiple ways. The victim-blaming, and the general perception of the 'mainstream' is that all gamers are antisocial, dangerous losers. To groups like the police, who think Mazes and Monsters was a documentary, all of us are just fringe nuts one bad dice roll away from a psychotic break, so they don't see incidents like the ones blogged here as exceptional or unusual.

And that, I think, is the only problem I have with the tone of the whole article now that I reflect. Sure, there's a sop thrown in at the end about how some male gamers aren't bad - but since it's immediately preceded by a hashtag-headed mockery of such, it very much comes off as aggressively dismissive of any effort. It's not an article written by a gamer to other gamers demanding that we police ourselves, it's an article written by a self-proclaimed ex-gamer to other non-gamers demanding that the 'gamers' be policed from the outside because we clearly cannot police ourselves, when I like to think the former would be more effective (not that reality has proven me correct thus far). The entire article is structured, by alternating personal anecdotes with how those anecdotes are generally applicable to the entire community, to reinforce that outside stereotype that leads to stuff like the RCMP jerkass victim-blaming in the first place.

None of which makes what she's said untrue, but the method of sharing it is...well, very Tumblr. So I can see why Lustful Bride is having an instinctive reaction to it, in part.

[Beorning]

I... just don't know. I'm completely at lost here.

If what she is saying is true, then it's horrible. Truly horrible.  :-( I never thought that in a creative, intelligence-demanding hobby like ours stuff like this could be happening.

But is it true? I've fallen for so many invented stories over the years that I can't help wondering...

What I'd like to hear is the opinion of other women in the hobby. Did they have similar experiences?

[Lustful Bride]

I... just don't know. I'm completely at lost here.

If what she is saying is true, then it's horrible. Truly horrible.  :-( I never thought that in a creative, intelligence-demanding hobby like ours stuff like this could be happening.

But is it true? I've fallen for so many invented stories over the years that I can't help wondering...

What I'd like to hear is the opinion of other women in the hobby. Did they have similar experiences?

There is credence to it since she also posted her lawsuit/documentation.

I never had anything that bad happen to me...not that I can recall..., If anything I had a cool experience, buying my first space marine box (I never finished painting them because I have no patience/hands are too unsteady) but the guy at the shop was super cool and totally sold me on them.

"The space marines are these big, heroic dudes who jump down from spaceships and fight monsters and aliens."

....wow he really toned down the Grimdark now that I'm thinking about it.......

[Beguile's Mistress]

I'm not accusing the author of giving in to hyperbole but I do find that many people going through bad experiences need to relieve the stress they feel.  I do this myself during bad times.  I might exaggerate my description of events and feelings at the moment of impact, you might say, and if the situation is particularly egregious I can't seem to let it go.

I don't doubt for the moment the author experienced what she described and was badly affected by it and I know there are some who seemed to become possessed by adverse personalities under certain conditions.  So while some of us may see her as going overboard I'd give her the benefit of the doubt and accept as much of her story as I can.  I've seen some pretty horrible things in my time and experienced a few as well.

[Thesunmaid]

This honestly just boggles me...I mean my Sunday night D&D group there are 3 woman in it as opposed (used to be 4 but one of our players just had a baby..so it makes sense why she would not be there now) ...a lot of the local gaming cons I go to have many woman either running and/or playing in the games...and I used to belong in a Larping group called the Camarilla...and at the time I joined we had more female members than men...one of our local gaming stores is run by a woman...the other is owned by 2 men but the staff is made up of equal men and woman.

So....I am honestly confused by this. I have never had anyone harass me for being a gamer nerd..I have played both male and female characters in Larps ,tabletop and online games..I ran an HTML room online where no one ever gave me any trouble over my gender..(other problems..such as a player was being a douche or something but...I found I had more problems with woman being assholes then men oddly..I had to ban 2 women as opposed to 1 man.)I have run games..one of which had my male GM as one of my players...so..I guess the closest thing I had happen that would be considered harassment in gaming would be at an after game party we had for someones birthday. A guy in the Larp group tried to grab my ass. (and he realized what he did the next day and apologized profusely.)

Our local gaming stores would I am fairly sure kick someone out if someone were to harass a customer no matter what thier gender of either the harasser or harasee.(one of the owners was the photographer at my wedding and an all around sweet man.)So yeah the whole old enough to bleed old enough to breed would be met with not only the owner but probably any regular customers threatening to kick the shit out of who ever said it while telling the person it was said to it will be OK.

I guess the closest thing I can really think of where someone treated me differently because I am a woman is two instances I went to buy a motherboard at a store and I had the store clerk tell me not to worry my pretty little head about all that technical stuff. I then proceeded to tell him where he could shove his computer parts and the manager came out as I was snarling at him and when he found out what had happened he actually fired the guy, and I was working tech support for an ISP and I had a guy say he was not sure I could help him because"This is technical stuff little lady." I then reset all his passwords and then told him he should look into the error that was coming it..it was an ID10T (eye-dee-ten-tee)error. So I have run into more problems with being a semi computer nerd than a gamer.

I have heard about these things..but...yeah maybe I am lucky the guys in the gamer community where I live and surrounding areas I have gotten to meet are...not chauvinistic at all about things.(well unless its in thier characters background to be lol)

[Far eyes]

I have been a table top gamer for a long long time, in a country that meany westerners would probably get a lot of weird ideas about. I have actually found that for the most part its 40/60 mix, there are less female gamers but the game club i visited for years actually had a fairly good mix. Was there occasionally problems? Yes, but you know what there were also occasionally problems between other sexes, there were a few incidents of two girls going at each other viciously enough that they had to be delta with.   

I am going to assume that she is in fact not making stuff up, its sounds like a shitty experience. But you know i am a 2m ish dude and i had a few shitty experiences to the jabs go in different directions because when dealing with an asshole they will always go for the vulnerable points. And with girls that is usually the crassly sexual. Its a shitty thing to do, but in some way its like making fun of somebody because he is short its just the lowest hanging fruit.

Reading it it just feels a bit at 11...    i am just...    this is not the gamers i know, and have known since i was 9 years old.

   

[Anteros]

It's horrible but misogyny and transhpobia among others forms of bigotry are rampant in the gamer community. It was a shock to me when I found out, although retrospectively it shouldn't have been. I naively assumed that all gamers were like the ones I knew, geeky, gentle, fun-loving idealists who got yelled at by their SO for littering the ground with dices.

Then I discovered 4-chan and quickly lost all my illusions.
I've yet to see one thread on \tg\ without some form of bigoted speech. The last example I saw was a shitstorm about the inclusion in Pathfinder of a kingdom ruled by women and how it was "pandering" and "shoving political agendas down the customers' throat", accompanied by insults to the female writer. All of this because of one tiny piece of the setting where no AP or module even takes place, is a benevolent matriarchy.

It's also surprinsingly difficult to convince some people, that no they aren't entitled to touch or take picture with a female cosplayer iif she doesn't want to. 

[Lustful Bride]

I've yet to see one thread on \tg\ without some form of bigoted speech. The last example I saw was a shitstorm about the inclusion in Pathfinder of a kingdom ruled by women and how it was "pandering" and "shoving political agendas down the customers' throat", accompanied by insults to the female writer.

That is pretty much the Internet in General.

[Skynet]

That is pretty much the Internet in General.

I wouldn't say that. It's a conclave of like-minded folks creates such a space.

Let's take RPGnet for example. Its moderators cracked down a lot on transphobic and sexist discussion, much to the chagrin of a lot of "free speech" folks, conservatives, and Men's Rights folks in the table-top community.

A sister site to RPGnet was made as a "free speech haven" where you won't get banned for being a bigot, a jerk, or otherwise holding repellent views (in theory). I'd rather not say their name and thus give them publicity and traffic, but ever since it's become dominated by the worst voices in tabletop. People who think that inclusivity in games is a sign of cultural Marxism, that putting LGBT people in an adventure path is political correctness run amok, etc.

And the sad part of it all is that several of their more prominent members have a following, especially among the "old-school D&D" crowd. Self-publishers advertise on their message board, people send complimentary copies of their books to the mod team to review, basically treating them with legitimacy.

If one were to go on Paizo or RPGnet and have a discussion about inclusivity and gender issues in games, you'd get a far different discussion than if you did the same thing than several other communities, including EN World which is the closest thing tabletop has to a news site.

[Far eyes]

I really would not take 4-chan as anything more then a competition in who can say the dumbest most shocking thing. Its hardly a watermark for anything except, stupid shit on 4-chan.

It's horrible but misogyny and transhpobia among others forms of bigotry are rampant in the gamer community.

I disagree on this, it might seem like it because some of the time this gets brought up in a very clumsy way by maybe some people who still need to do a lot of growing, there is very often a whole bunch of static and accusations flying around, But i would not say its more so the case then any other random group of people. But the thing is the media has always joyfully shit on gamers and tabletop gamers and now playing up this angle is just the newest and more insidious version of the Moral panic of the 80s in the US. I am not saying it dos not exist just that its no more prevalent then any other place with a lot of teens declaring there absolute wisdom gathered trougout there long lives. Add to that a a sprinkling of crumagens who think anything not written by Gygax personally is not worth tere time and generally being cromugeny about everything and thats prty much it. But i could say the same about any large group of people. 

   

[Blythe]

I really would not take 4-chan as anything more then a competition in who can say the dumbest most shocking thing. Its hardly a watermark for anything except, stupid shit on 4-chan.

4 Chan is a bit more than that.

It's been a platform, and often continues to be a platform, for coordinated harassment campaigns against people or harassment in general. It's a bit more than just "a competition to say the dumbest and most shocking thing." If it were just that, it could remain in isolation and not do so much damage. But on 4chan, many people often actively engage in bullying, harassment, and abuse, which is the norm there. Is all of 4chan like that? Probably not; I hesitate to paint anything with too large a generalization, but 4chan's reputation somewhat precedes it.

I've read a thread on 4chan where people actively attempted to a coordinate campaign to drive transgender people to suicide.

That's a lot more than "dumb people saying dumb things."

It's a very disturbing thought.

Intolerance is a problem in the gaming community.

The toxicity most often comes out when people think they're being anonymous...and once they feel validated, it spreads well beyond that.

[Far eyes]

Fair enough, i have to admit its not a place i frequent much i think it might have been several years since i have seen it and it struck me just as a 1 joke place, and its a lame joke.

[Anteros]

I really would not take 4-chan as anything more then a competition in who can say the dumbest most shocking thing. Its hardly a watermark for anything except, stupid shit on 4-chan.

I disagree on this, it might seem like it because some of the time this gets brought up in a very clumsy way by maybe some people who still need to do a lot of growing, there is very often a whole bunch of static and accusations flying around, But i would not say its more so the case then any other random group of people. But the thing is the media has always joyfully shit on gamers and tabletop gamers and now playing up this angle is just the newest and more insidious version of the Moral panic of the 80s in the US. I am not saying it dos not exist just that its no more prevalent then any other place with a lot of teens declaring there absolute wisdom gathered trougout there long lives. Add to that a a sprinkling of crumagens who think anything not written by Gygax personally is not worth tere time and generally being cromugeny about everything and thats prty much it. But i could say the same about any large group of people. 

   

Granted, misogyny, transphobia and bigotry in general are rampant everywhere, not just in the gaming industry, but bigot gamers are particularly vocal about it. They may not be the worst, but they're certainly bad, and too numerous for many people who aren't white cis-males to feel comfortable or even safe in some case. You can't even just ignore them because of how loud they are.
Recent example: http://www.craveonline.com/entertainment/972903-gamers-flood-baldurs-gate-expansion-negative-reviews-introduces-transsexual-character

And while not as terrible as the rapes and death threats, you get tired fast from having people make inappropriate comments because your character has breasts or from being told that your wizard can't be dark skinned because medieval settings should only have white people. It doesn't happen everytime, thanks heaven, but often enough that it's a real problem. And yes, those are the actions of a minority, but it still a significant number of people, each of whom can be an ignoble jerk to dozens of people.

[Lustful Bride]

I no longer play games online, and especialy not in a voice chat.

I just stick to story modes or with friend.

[Far eyes]

I dont play games on voice chat, and i am literally a dude with barely any accent and a mostly deepish voice. :P

@Anteros

Yah i have actually been reading into that a bit, see the problem there is the "noise" ratio that i mentioned earlier. I played the original games back in the day, all of the series. I was not very..   enamored with the quality of there work on the enhanced addition, they did a few things but it was also a buggy peace of crap. They already had something of a reputation for that. My and actually a lot of peoples criticism for the current offering is not that they have a gay character, a trans character. Its that those characters are written dirt poor. boogie2988 actually made a fairly decent video on it.

It smacks of 90s token gay guy in sitcom's.

I am not saying there is not a ratio of retard who want to hate on people because they are different, or just thoughtlessly want to get on a "bandwagon"  i am not denying or excusing the amount of truly idiotic shit going on just to be clear. I am just saying my own criticism and a few of those i have herd on it is aimed at the quality of the writing not the appearance of the characters.

Personally i was never a fan of the idea of having the One token gay character and then maybe like two possible female love interests, your choice of chocolate or vanilla. I understand the necessarily of it considering the game has to be made, voiced acted and written in a manageable amount of time but having more options in such things in general, if its relevant to the game would be nice. 
   

[Anteros]

Yeah, I know those "critics". Half of them will mention that they have personally nothing against gay people, while the others won't even bother.

I remember all the hate Dragon Age 2 got, not merely because it wasn't as good as DA:O (it really wasn't), but because some dudes couldn't tolerate that a male NPC would hit on their characters (Here is a famous example: http://www.nomorelost.org/2011/03/25/straight-male-gamer-told-to-get-over-it-by-bioware/
It happened again with DA:I (Another example: http://the-geek-spot.blogspot.com/2014/12/dainquisition-review-inaccuracies-worry.html)
It's always the same rethoric, with diversity included for political correctness and furthering liberal agendas, not because perhaps, those people exist and might wish to see someone like them in their favorite medias. 

[Blythe]

I am not saying there is not a ratio of retard who want to hate on people because they are different,

While I get the idea/sentiment that your post is conveying, using 'retard' as a pejorative isn't really helpful. Is usually better to avoid doing that.

[Skynet]

Granted, misogyny, transphobia and bigotry in general are rampant everywhere, not just in the gaming industry, but bigot gamers are particularly vocal about it. They may not be the worst, but they're certainly bad, and too numerous for many people who aren't white cis-males to feel comfortable or even safe in some case. You can't even just ignore them because of how loud they are.
Recent example: http://www.craveonline.com/entertainment/972903-gamers-flood-baldurs-gate-expansion-negative-reviews-introduces-transsexual-character

And while not as terrible as the rapes and death threats, you get tired fast from having people make inappropriate comments because your character has breasts or from being told that your wizard can't be dark skinned because medieval settings should only have white people. It doesn't happen everytime, thanks heaven, but often enough that it's a real problem. And yes, those are the actions of a minority, but it still a significant number of people, each of whom can be an ignoble jerk to dozens of people.

Related to Baldur's Gate: Ed Greenwood weighed in on this just now.

[HannibalBarca]

I hate shit like this.  The shit the female author has put up with.  It goes without saying that I've had experience with this--my mother put up with it, my ex put up with it, my 14 year old trans son has put up with it.  Not entirely in gaming or cons or the like, but just because I'm a straight white male doesn't make me blind to the horrific crap people who are not white, straight, or cisgender males have to put up with.  Because of events in my childhood I'd rather not mention, I have a very sore spot with bullying and abuse, particularly with those who are marginalized in the world.

I've been gaming since I was ten; I started with the original D&D in 1979.  I've played with groups of mostly white guys from my teens, but have been involved with everything from family groups and friends to game shop PUGs and convention room tabletops.  Being a big, tall white male has shielded me from a lot of the abuse others have had to put up with; what it hasn't done, however, is make me tone-deaf or antagonistic to that abuse.  My ex got groped by a guy at a con many years ago when I wasn't with her--but was close enough to both see him do it, and hear his excuse.  She's an extrovert and had no problem getting in his face and angrily giving him a piece of her mind, but I had him up against the wall when I got to them.  I'm a silent, calm person 99.9% of the time--it tends to come with the territory of being bigger than everyone else in the room and never feeling threatened--but she had to pull me off of him for fear of me getting arrested after doing something really stupid.  What he did wasn't even the match to the fuse--it was what he said: "Chill out, it was just a little squeeze."  He might as well have said stop struggling, bitch to my ears.  Assaulting someone is bad enough...but defending it by telling the victim she shouldn't make a big deal about it...

No.  I reserve the right to see red in that instance.  I also reserve the right to be ashamed as a white man...but really more as a human being.

Most people I've gamed with, even most white guys I've gamed with, have never been a problem like that.  But that means that some of them have been.  And I've both spoken and acted--decisively and immediately--when it did.  That in and of itself usually makes a difference in the situation.  Most people are non-confrontational, and if someone becomes the squeaky wheel, or in my case a loud-as-fuck angry wheel, they get the drift and don't push it or continue their behavior.  It may not cure them of their misogyny, homophobia, or other mental ailments, but it keeps them in line, and maybe makes them think about it the next time they consider being an asshole.

[Anteros]

Related to Baldur's Gate: Ed Greenwood weighed in on this just now.

I'm super happy to read Ed Greenwood comment on the situation. :-)
On the other hand, the first damn comment on his reaction links to this: http://nichegamer.com/2016/04/04/tale-dragons-memes-dragonspears-writing-horrid/
And of course the guy who pretends to be bothered by the writing's quality is really bothered by the "social justice pandering" also known as "including people and opinions he doesn't like".
Seriously, when did the term justice become negative anyway?
Also, I have to show this part:

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide

Secondly, and perhaps even worse than Corwin’s broken mess of a character, is the modification done to Safana. While I understand Beamdog’s writers were angry at Safana for being a man-teasing “slut”, I never saw her character in such a way. To me, she was a manipulative woman who learned she could coerce men to do her bidding by complimenting them. Any woman who has had a successful first date after the age of 13 is well aware of the truth in that strategy. Though considering your average bitter female 30-something social keyboard warrior dines with cats and spends every night dampening their iPhone with tears shed while swiping through Tinder profiles, it shouldn’t come as much of a surprise to you that they despise having to admit that fact.

Yeah, it's obvious the writing's quality is the main conern here. Give me a break.

[Lustful Bride]

I'm super happy to read Ed Greenwood comment on the situation. :-)
On the other hand, the first damn comment on his reaction links to this: http://nichegamer.com/2016/04/04/tale-dragons-memes-dragonspears-writing-horrid/
And of course the guy who pretends to be bothered by the writing's quality is really bothered by the "social justice pandering" also known as "including people and opinions he doesn't like".
Seriously, when did the term justice become negative anyway?
Also, I have to show this part:

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide

Secondly, and perhaps even worse than Corwin’s broken mess of a character, is the modification done to Safana. While I understand Beamdog’s writers were angry at Safana for being a man-teasing “slut”, I never saw her character in such a way. To me, she was a manipulative woman who learned she could coerce men to do her bidding by complimenting them. Any woman who has had a successful first date after the age of 13 is well aware of the truth in that strategy. Though considering your average bitter female 30-something social keyboard warrior dines with cats and spends every night dampening their iPhone with tears shed while swiping through Tinder profiles, it shouldn’t come as much of a surprise to you that they despise having to admit that fact.

Yeah, it's obvious the writing's quality is the main conern here. Give me a break.

*Fans you and brings out the Fire Extinguisher* easy there easy, you will upset Mr. Snowball the third and then the Keyboard warriors might have to get off their Lazy Boy chairs for once.

Though I'm picking up what your saying and I like it. :-)

[Anteros]

Sorry abouut getting angry, here. :-[

[Lustful Bride]

Sorry abouut getting angry, here. :-[

No its good, Plus you were still cohesive and that's the important part....you have no idea how hard I'm resisting the urge to quote Palpatine.

You know...I haven't felt so informed and educated from a thread in the PROC in a long time. I like it. :-)

[la dame en noir]

Sorry abouut getting angry, here. :-[

Don't ever apologize for your anger as a person that has be discriminated against.

[Anteros]

Thanks, you two.

[Lustful Bride]

Thanks, you two.

There is no need for thanks. For only together can we achieve a better world. For until Every Human on earth is equal, then no one is equal.

(Aliens don't count :P )

I would add more but this is around the time I just start rambling incoherently like a crazy cat lady.

[Far eyes]

Dragon Age 2

From what i remember about Inquisition most of the characters were rather well written so i am more or less happy about thatr par to for that game, it felt a little like a single player mmo but thats game design problem.

DA2..   see i would say i had a problem with that character but, its not that he was gay or that he came onto you in the patented clumsy Bioware way*. Its that he was essentially "staff girl" dressed up as a guy. I do not know if the term "Staff girl" gets used anymore but it tended to refer to the stereo type of the female hero in a group but she was only allowed to do specific things, this usually left her in the roll of a healer type character.

*Again see my earlier point about single token gay guy, i found him unappealing. But then again i do believe the female choices were skanky pirate chick and emo elf girl...    and i think the guy who fall into DA2 form a Final Fantasy game but i avoided him mostly so i dont really know. So eye rolling characters all around, really one of the cool characters in the game you had no option of a romance with of any kind was your dwarf buddy. And my lanky mage toon might have liked him  O:)   

That and DA2 had a loooot of problems that had noting to do with anybody's sexuality unless it was the game getting fucked past like act 1-2 :P

EDIR: Thinking on it i think its actually for the most part the tokenisam i object to, if its a part of your world and setting and *Shrug* why should it not be, then it should not be a single special snowflake character. Actually a lot of early RPGs did this with the "Girlfriend" character

[Far eyes]

But that means that some of them have been.  And I've both spoken and acted--decisively and immediately--when it did.  That in and of itself usually makes a difference in the situation.

I would perhaps make the argument just on a wide non case specific basis that it could very well just be the case of misinformation. Nobody is born knowing all things, and i have experienced a lot of cases of sexism and racism* ware the person the comment came from never full realized it until he was spoken to about it. I have had friends who while they were 16 said some of the most idiotic sexist things, he grew out of it he got challenged on those concept by me and another friend and he is not like that now.

*Nationalism often times in my region

Personally i believe there are generally two groups. One will say things because they just run there mouths never fully understanding what they are saying, some of these people calmly and rationally challenged and on there stances will see it for wrong and become perfectly pleasant company. For some its an ingrained belief and well there is no real point in arguing with that section, you just deal with them in the appropriate manner. 

I just dont like conflating the two into one, because its not a helpful way of dealing with a situation. It also sucks ass sometimes to have to be the guy to deal with it, because having the same discussion 7 bejilion times makes you feel like a teacher. I had that roll in my gaming club for a good couple of years, its sort of an unofficial title.     

[Nachtmahr]

I think I'd have appreciated a little heads-up about the rather graphic and.. Frankly terrifying nature of that article. Not that it wasn't on point and a perfectly fine article, but I didn't really know quite what I was in for when I went to read it.

Anyways, I think it's important to remember that of course it's not the whole gaming community at large that's like this, but it is disturbingly common. The unfiltered brutality that the internet has allowed us to practice through a shroud of anonymity means that a whole lot of people think they can do or say just about anything on the internet, and they'll either never get caught or claim that the person who's doing something wrong is the one investigating them afterwards.

Online social hubs have also only recently begun to show any real interest in trying to dampen online harassment, but generally speaking anyone is apparently still fair game when it comes to these gruesome assaults. You'll see people excusing it with the fact that "Oh, it's just words on a monitor, get over it!" or that "They should have seen it coming" but that doesn't make it okay. If you move to a neighborhood in real life that's known for it's high crime-rate, then that doesn't make the crimes any less criminal. Yeah, a lot of women and minority people today know that if they reveal anything about themselves, they're going to be on the receiving end of this kind of abuse, and isn't that sickening?

I wish I could think of some kind of suggestion as to how we would solve this, but the only thing that comes up is that game developers and other people with some amount of power and influence needs to take some responsibility and not just sit back and ignore it. These vile, disgusting people who do this sort of thing aren't facing any consequences, and wen that's the case then how are they supposed to ever understand how wrong it is? Education, it seems, is always the answer. But how do you teach someone what's right and what's wrong when doing the right thing comes with no reward and doing the wrong thing comes with no consequences? And how do we police modern, online communities without loosing the wonderful gift that online freedom is to begin with?

I wish things were better, and maybe they will be one day. But right now I can't say I have a whole lot of hope left.

[Tairis]

I really love it when people jump on one issue and ignore the rest. Yes, some people were being everything phobic idiots about there being a transcharacter in the BG expansion. Did anyone actually read the reviews, though, or any of the dialogue that was written for the game? A alot of those terrible reviews were from people mad that the game didn't work, not about the characters at all.

This to me feels like a game company did a shitty job and now they're using a controversy to try and claim it's just prejudice that's getting them bad reviews.

However, it did get noticed by one of the employees, who pretty much responded in the worst possible manner.

And here's a news article from 2014 relating to one of the Tumblr post's stories.

Since I seem to always be playing Devil's Advocate here... did anyone actually read what that guy stated? Why exactly is that the 'worst possible manner' and why is it that she is automatically 100% credible whereas this guy must be full of it? Everything he's stating there is that she waged a campaign of harassment against Wyrd and never provided any evidence of her claims.

No one else finds it bizarre that this woman is claiming that she wasn't just sexually harassed, but that she has been aggressively sexually assaulted literally for 10+ years by apparently every male gamer she's met? This doesn't seem the least bit hyperbolic? I'll 100% believe that this is something that has happened and needs to be addressed, but I find my incredulity strained to its breaking point that this woman has somehow managed to get sexually attacked at every single game store and convention she's gone to.

I also read the actual judicial decision from her case, here http://www.manitobahumanrights.ca/publications/legal/garland.pdf

The entire case seems to be based on the testimony of 4 people: her, one co-worker, the man that harassed her, and her employer. No physical evidence was provided. No recordings, no written communication, no witnesses outside those already directly involved with one side of the case or the other. This is frankly a very large case of 'he said-she said' and the judge decided that 'she said' was more credible.

She also makes a claim that a Privateer Press representative smacked her on the ass. I've worked with that company as a Pressganger (the same position as the man she claims harassed her in that instance). They have a strict harassment policy and no mention of any complaints about such an incident. Which, considering she knows what a Pressganger is and who Privateer Press is, and clearly has no issue making public statements why would she not complain to that company?

I've owned a game store, repped for companies, and generally been gaming for over a decade. Most gamers I know barely talk to strangers of EITHER gender without prompting from a more outgoing third party... yet somehow this woman has managed to find not one, but dozens upon dozens of the most sexually aggressive tabletop gamers in the world? The level of sexual aggression she describes I don't even see that frequently in actual bars and clubs where alcohol is flowing.

I think stupid and bigoted people need to be put in their place and yes, I think gamers especially are conflict avoidant so people don't get called out like they should... but this? Everything in her language, diction, the situations she describes comes across as so extreme, so frequent, and so stereotypical that I find it hard to believe. Especially when all indications are they she has never once actually provided any evidence of any of these claims beyond 'This totally happened'.

Edit: Especially after reading her blog that is full with various Tumbr-riffic posts like 'mansplaining!' and anita sarkeesian quotes.

Not to mention gems like this:

    The presentation of Kylo Ren as a whiny, insecure little shit is brilliant because, frankly, whiny insecure little shits are usually the people who actually do become evil in real life.

    Nerds want a Star Wars bad guy to be a stone-cold badass like Darth Vader because this lets them off the hook for self-examination, as nerds are absolutely nothing like Darth Vader. Kylo Ren, however, is a nerd: he acts like one, he has the backstory of one, and when he takes his helmet off, he even looks like one. Far from ruining the film, this actually makes it the most mature entry to date in the Star Wars canon, because it forces the greatest amount of self-examination on the part of its core audience.

[Far eyes]

This to me feels like a game company did a shitty job and now they're using a controversy to try and claim it's just prejudice that's getting them bad reviews.

The BG enhanced edition they did was also buggy, i think it still might be buggy i have not actually checked in a long while. They got a lot of flack for that one and if i remember correctly were not highly praised for there additions. A monk and a "Sits in the corner totaly a badass because he is dark and brooding anti-paladin special snow flake" is i belive the full class description. I think besides that no other major characters were added though i could be wrong, the game kind of collapsed on me at some point frequent crashes and so on.

[Tairis]

The BG enhanced edition they did was also buggy, i think it still might be buggy i have not actually checked in a long while. They got a lot of flack for that one and if i remember correctly were not highly praised for there additions. A monk and a "Sits in the corner totaly a badass because he is dark and brooding anti-paladin special snow flake" is i belive the full class description. I think besides that no other major characters were added though i could be wrong, the game kind of collapsed on me at some point frequent crashes and so on.

Yea the first... 6 months+ after they released it BG Enhanced was a complete mess. From what I've seen its been mostly fixed but you can still find a slew of those negative reviews too.

[Cassandraks]

I have to agree with Tairis, being a women who has been around gaming and gaming groups and all that kind of stuff. There isn't the doubt that there are idiot gamers out there that are capable of doing stuff like this. But the amount of it she has said she has gone through is a little hard to swallow. Honestly if it was me, I would have moved and found a much friendlier place to game and live. If all these gamers are like this where she is, then I can only imagine what the non gamer guys are like.

Perhaps also I am a little more old school, it has been a while since I have been around game groups and game stores. Perhaps now they are filled with these confident men who don't mind spitting sexist comments at women, or groping them. I remember going into game stores, and every male eye looking at me because OMG a female walked in and oh no I am going to crap myself. The groups I have been around, if they ever said something ignorant and they would say ignorant stuff around me. But it was because they were comfortable around me, hell I was one of the guys. If they were doing it just to be a jerk, that is one thing and they know I would have beat the crap out of them. But they never did that kind of stuff, they were respectful of women. If anything ever like this happened around them, I know a few while male gamers, who would have made sure to rip off the arm the hand that groped was attached to and made the guy who did it eat it.

So maybe it is a different crowd now, perhaps I have been away from it for to long. I don't know. I have no doubt there is a problem out there, but I believe it is smaller then what is being said. It all seems a bit to hate filled and exaggerated to me.  No women should ever have to go through anything like this, hell no person out there should have to. But it is also stuff like this that makes it harder for those that things like this happens to. Just the stuff being said about the police, and bosses and such. Would make a lot of girls I think, rethink about saying anything at all to anyone. In which there is more help out there for them, then is being said.

[Lustful Bride]

I have to agree with Tairis, being a women who has been around gaming and gaming groups and all that kind of stuff. There isn't the doubt that there are idiot gamers out there that are capable of doing stuff like this. But the amount of it she has said she has gone through is a little hard to swallow. Honestly if it was me, I would have moved and found a much friendlier place to game and live. If all these gamers are like this where she is, then I can only imagine what the non gamer guys are like.

I think its a possibility that she might be taking the stories of other women who went through this and saying that all of that happened to her when in reaity maybe only 2 or 3 of them are her stories.

[Cassandraks]

I think its a possibility that she might be taking the stories of other women who went through this and saying that all of that happened to her when in reaity maybe only 2 or 3 of them are her stories.

Maybe. But it is still deceptive, and doesn't really help anyone in the end. If she had just been honest and said this was from different women. It would have went better, and less bitter.

[Skynet]

I really love it when people jump on one issue and ignore the rest. Yes, some people were being everything phobic idiots about there being a transcharacter in the BG expansion. Did anyone actually read the reviews, though, or any of the dialogue that was written for the game? A alot of those terrible reviews were from people mad that the game didn't work, not about the characters at all.

Oh there are definitely problems with the game, but the prejudiced people have definitely poisoned the well by weighing in on it. There's quite a few folks framing it as "inserting political agendas into video games" along with criticism of the bugs in an attempt to frame it as something nobler than it really is (something GamerGate did with their "ethics in gaming journalism" back in 2014).

And that thing makes it harder to tell apart which ones are being made in good faith or not. Particularly from /r/kotakuinaction, which definitely have some people angry at the inclusion of a transgender NPC but rephrasing it as the NPC going "hi I'm trans" when in fact it's only something that happens if you ask her about her name via two conversation prompts. The fact that posters over there are talking about it repeatedly in spite of the complaints that "it's not about transphobia" is akin to shouting "I'm not yelling!"

So there is some dishonesty going around; is there deserved criticism? Yes. Would the game be getting hammered as much on MetaCritic and non-Steam stores (where you don't have to purchase the game to review) were it not for that and having Minsc do a dig at GamerGate? No it wouldn't. By getting involved they're making it harder to separate legitimate critics, thus undermining the good cause.

[TheGlyphstone]

How does Minsc take a dig at GamerGate without breaking the fourth wall (not that I would put a 4th wall violation past him)?

[Skynet]

How does Minsc take a dig at GamerGate without breaking the fourth wall (not that I would put a 4th wall violation past him)?

He says as one of his random lines "really, it's all about ethics in heroic adventuring!"

This option was later taken out, in that it didn't fit his character to say something like that.

[TheGlyphstone]

huh. Yeah, that doesn't fit him at all.

[Skynet]

It was something the developers agreed with, and I can totally understand.

When playing the original I hated it when Khalid said "Click on somebody your own size!" at times when you clicked him. It felt utterly bizarre and out of place for an in-character speech in a fantasy world. And he didn't come off as a wacky guy or dude with "existential insight" to make 4th wall breaking, at least from my brief playthrough.

[TheGlyphstone]

See, stuff like that I can get, and laugh at, because it's blatantly 4th-wall breaking meta, poking fun at the medium itself - the games I play have a long history of meta-jokes like that, even if it's not fitting in-universe. The proposed Minsc comment, though, is too in-universe to be blatant meta-awareness, but too OOC for Minsc; trying to justify it IC while maintaining the 'wink wink nudge' meta-critical message just makes it come across as awkward to my brain.

[Far eyes]

Its a poorly done game, this is not the mountain to die on for anybody nobody will care in about a week.

[Renegade Vile]

I just had this slide across my desk so to speak. I would like to know what people think. It is quite the read for someone very much on the privileged side of this situation.

http://latining.tumblr.com/post/141567276944/tabletop-gaming-has-a-white-male-terrorism-problem

My personal thoughts, when a cop is telling you "Find another hobby" to keep yourself safe, this world is in need of some quite self reflection time.

I know plenty of male gamers that have no issue with girls in their hobbies. Of course, I don't live in the US, so I have no idea what the situation is like there. But there are two women who've been playing Magic for years at a local game store I go to. They never have any issue. Their gender is never brought up, they are not treated differently (meaning they are neither treated worse or -better-). They just want to play Magic and they can. Same for a woman that's in a regular role playing group.

As I said, I can't extend this experience to beyond that game store and stories I've heard of similar scenarios across Flanders, but I still cannot help but feel we're talking about a small number of people. I mean, the sheer number of people I know online who consistently play role playing games, card games and miniature games of a  non-male gender that never seem to come across these issues makes me think part of the problem might be on her. Not because she's female, but because of something else? Conjecture though, because I have no facts or figures to back this up.

Articles like these just always leave me scratching my head since I have yet to meet a man who acts like this and isn't immediately scorned and despised by other men around him.

[RedRose]

I'm not surprised at all about the cop. In a certain European country they basically told me that certain jobs are better left to plain ladies who won't attract stalkers and weirdos (and it was a very normal job, think waitressing or hairdresser).

[Cassandraks]

That part I get kind of. But it is the fact that everyone she talked to, multiple cops, bosses, male people that might be able to help what so ever. Hell I don't think she even mentioned talking to any female help. It was basically insinuating that no male what so ever would help. That they just basically said shut up and go back to the kitchen. I am sure there are idiots like that, but so many in one area. I do kind of find it hard to believe.

And I don't know about the rest of you, if this stuff was happening to me especially so many times. One I would be changing the way I am in those places, being a lot more cautious around men in places like that. And two, I would not be just stopping at the sexist jerks who are telling me it is my fault. If anyone ever did to me the things she was writing, they would never any longer even consider doing anything like that again to a women once I was done with them.

[Far eyes]

And I don't know about the rest of you, if this stuff was happening to me especially so many times

I think its mentioned its not all her, some are stories from different people and i am incredibly tempted to go with an old fisherman tale but lets just take her at her word.

I am going to leave the story about the spiked drink out front because that is one i do have trouble with, in details and in follow up both

The thing that bothers me in all this is that in every case "she" is incredibly passive. I know 3 female gamers well enough to make an educated guess at what would happen, one of them works in the military police in my country if something like that happened to her i am more or less sure there would be injuries. That and i do not think tubby would start shit with her. The two of the others are both the kind that can put anybody down a peg verbally if provoked. I can not imagine either of them standing around going "oh gosh" I dont want to slide into victim blaming but for fuck sake do something.

No idea maybe i am confrontational, maybe its a national trait sort of its not necessarily always good but i just can not imagine in almost any of these situations just standing there.     

[Avis habilis]

I dont want to slide into victim blaming but for fuck sake do something.

Then don't immediately proceed to blame her for not stopping it.

... part of the problem might be on her. Not because she's female, but because of something else?

I'm curious to know what behaviors you think she might be exhibiting that would justify rape threats, death threats & physical assaults.

[Far eyes]

Then don't immediately proceed to blame her for not stopping it.

Its the flow of the story ware there is no action from her side, it means either the story is incomplete or she did noting. 

[Avis habilis]

Its the flow of the story ware there is no action from her side, it means either the story is incomplete or she did noting.

So it's her fault for not immediately confronting a group of more physically powerful individuals who have already demonstrated hostile intent. Got it.

[Cassandraks]

Far Eyes I do have to agree with you on that, I hate to say it. But you see it so much on E and other sites like this. That women just deal with so much, they don't make waves even though they are getting offended or bothered by a jerk. I have heard so many stories from people who are on another site I frequent, which is less about adult RPing and more just about RPing. They were going to change things about the adult part, making it more difficult and possibly have to pay to post on there. Me and several others fought for that not to happen, because it is so much safer a space to RP adult then it is on strictly adult sites. Not that there isn't a chance of it happening on the other site, but it is so much harder to be done.

But just the stories of what I have heard women put up with. For me, it is a hell no situation. You start harassing, insulting, making me uncomfortable. I don't give you a chance to change. You are done, you are gone. You are not worth my time in any way shape or form, and I have also seen even with that they don't tend to learn from it.

I have always had the feeling, and it may color me at being not on the side of the women sitting and saying you poor thing. While the stuff shouldn't be happening period, being passive about it being done to you is in the end on you. If I was to see it happen in front of me, I would do something about it. But as women anymore, less talk and whining about how we should be treated. And more this is what you get if you ever treat me in a disrespectful way is truly needed. And I know there are people are not confrontational, but there are other ways then just taking it to handle things.

[Blythe]

I think its a possibility that she might be taking the stories of other women who went through this and saying that all of that happened to her when in reaity maybe only 2 or 3 of them are her stories.

I think its mentioned its not all her, some are stories from different people and i am incredibly tempted to go with an old fisherman tale but lets just take her at her word.

Is there anywhere in the article itself that explicitly says this was the manner in which it was written, though?

This is probably not a good assumption to make without something to back it up. Believe or disbelieve her experiences, but trying to twist it to the point of saying "these are stories from a lot of people" is a rather large leap.

[Far eyes]

So it's her fault for not immediately confronting a group of more physically powerful individuals who have already demonstrated hostile intent. Got it.

No i did not say that.

[LisztesFerenc]

Is there anywhere in the article itself that explicitly says this was the manner in which it was written, though?

This is probably not a good assumption to make without something to back it up. Believe or disbelieve her experiences, but trying to twist it to the point of saying "these are stories from a lot of people" is a rather large leap.

  I assumed these were the experiences of multiple woman as well, since they weren't in chronological order. I am interesting in why you would consider such an interpretation a "twist" of the other story however, as that implies it subverts the intention, but I think the problem remains the same, regardless of whether this all have to 1 women or multiple.

[Far eyes]

@Cassandraks

Its possible that this is just one of those things that translates poorly, maybe the group i have experience with had just always been very pro active. I honestly do not know, i can to some extent only function off the experience i have. But to some level it always stomps me when i here about people who do noting.

And no this is not about what they should/could have done its the pure inaction that stomps me, because it is not something i know from my personal experience, from those female games around me who i have played with and play with. As i mentioned maybe its the group i hang with.     

[Blythe]

  I assumed these were the experiences of multiple woman as well, since they weren't in chronological order. I am interesting in why you would consider such an interpretation a "twist" of the other story however, as that implies it subverts the intention, but I think the problem remains the same, regardless of whether this all have to 1 women or multiple.

I assumed it was her own experiences, that she was cataloging experiences that had happened to her during her life over a long term, since it was not explicitly said there were multiple authors. One vignette revolves around the speaker being 13, another is age-indeterminate at Keycon, two in 2005, one in 2007, one in 2008, two are in 2009, one in 2010, one is in 2015. One vignette is vague, and implies incidents between the years of 2001-2008 (but I wonder if this is a summary including some previous events? I'm not sure I can make that assumption safely, though, so I won't). One is in May but does not specify a year. The narrative style implies something closer to a single person's events that happened over the course of a very long time frame (14+ years).

It's conceivable that there are multiple women's experiences here, but I wouldn't assume it. The reason I don't like that particular assumption is that it does imply the author is being dishonest about representing her personal experiences without evidence to back that up.

That being said, should the article be a collection of women's negative experiences, the overall matter of sexism, harassment, and other major problems does remain, true.

[Cassandraks]

@Far eyes

I am the same way, but I don't tend to consider myself a normal women either. I myself have a hard time with how a lot of females act, but that is for another topic. I am on the side of I get along with men more then I do women. That doesn't mean I don't get along with women, I do very much so. But I tend to have closer male friends, then I do female friends.

I have seen the inaction in real life and online. Thankfully the real life part hasn't been to the more harassment side of things. But it stumps me to, when someone be it male or female won't stand up for themselves in any way. That doesn't help anyone, and yeah it is great when you have someone to stand up for you. But what do you learn from it, what does the person being stood up to learn from it. Not a lot. They learn that they can just get away with their ignorance, and that sucks.

Running around and saying these people are bad is all good and great, but they won't end up stopping unless they learn there is consequence to their actions. Whatever the consequence might be.

[WhatLiesAbove]

I'm gonna thank the OP for the article. Don't know if anyone else did...but I am.

These kinds of stories happen EVERYWHERE. Replace a comic-con with a high school football game. Replace a tabletop game with a party. Just because we hold dear to our gaming ideals, and think of RP with a sense of purity does not make it so.

I've taken my niece to a few open tabletop games. I've had to stand up for her to a couple of assholes...you know the type. People who are SO INTO the game, that anyone doing something newbie-ish sends them into a rage. Usually they are either adolescent, or older-middle age. Hey, asshole...it's a GAME. Come off like that again to my family, I'll take you out back and show you what isn't a game...namely, my foot up your ass. I'm lucky in a way....she loves tabletop D&D, and I love that we can do that in common (even if it is 4.0). But the few online games I've introduced her too...games that should bring out a more adolescent crowd...has been overflowing with predators.

They are out there, folks. Believe the story or not, even if these things didn't all happen to this woman, they all happened to SOMEONE. That, above all else, needs to be addressed. And don't go blaming the victim. Why are we telling women that they shouldn't be included in the fun? If you are going to say that she should do something different, perhaps you should try it a different way. SHE didn't do anything wrong. SHE went to have fun gaming. HE did something wrong. HE slipped her a roofie, or touched her, or pinned her to the wall, or raped her. None of that is HER fault. It's HIS, and it's the fault of every ball-less asshole who didn't stand up and say "what the fuck, this is WRONG!"

Sorry if it seems like I'm in a tangent. I just...,this kind of thing strikes a chord with me. I have a lot of female friends. More than male. I would say one in three have been sexually assaulted in some manner or another. That's admitted, not reported. It makes me sick, especially now that I have a daughter. One in three, folks. Please think about that.

We shouldn't blame the woman for what she's wearing, or whether or not she's alone without a male companion. You wanna blame someone, look at the assholes who are doing these disgusting things.

[Cassandraks]

And no one is, but at the same time this whole idea of I will do what I want and men shouldn't be doing this stuff. Which I agree they shouldn't be, but it isn't a perfect world. And we need to be as women protecting ourselves in some way also. No one should ever have to go through this, I hate that anyone has to go through this. But us as women, should be taking some responsibility to protect ourselves and not just sit there and go something happened I won't bother doing anything about it so when it happens again... That kind of thinking just doesn't work.

I don't know it is all just frustrating anymore, because we are at a time where girls and women are getting more then they ever did. They want to be stronger then they ever have been, but when it counts it is missing. Be smart about things, don't assume everyone else around you is going to be.

[Aethereal]

       Okay, I think I'm at least semi-alert now.

       Point one. That has nothing to do with gaming. As someone pointed out above, it could be a bar, or a bus, or a shopping mall, or a concert, whatever. Tying it to gaming seems, well, superfluous, and feels a bit like picking out a completely random group to antagonize.
      Singling out any group that isn't specifically dedicated at putting someone down (in case of sexism see some groups of MRA and radfems) is wrong. It's not the group as such. It's the individuals. Doesn't matter what their unrelated hobbies are. I'm pretty certain there are a few serial killer rapists who love cute animals and like strawberry ice cream. Doesn't mean cute animals or strawberry ice cream induced those tendencies.

      Point two. It seems hyperbolic. I, who I've been in written roleplay for roughly 12 years (I think? I don't seel like calculating atm.) in computer games since the early nineties, and occasionally go to tabletop sittings, have had exactly zero such experiences, nor do I know any female who has face to face. I've had random guys try and ask me out or struck up a random conversation on the street, but none have laid a hand on me, and those who have been a bit more persistent have been annoying at most.
      Ironically, the number one (and practically only) person to make rapey comments at me has been a lesbian woman (I'm pretty certain it was her idea of humor, rather than her meaning those things seriously), and she eventually gave up, but only after I told her repeatedly that I find these jokes rapey rather than amusing, am only interested in male humans, and am eh, "soft dom?" ... nonsubmissive in any case, and essentially stated that if she actually tried something like that in real life, stopping force would be used. That person, by the way, also pissed off one of my male friends with those comments being directed at me. (Just to make it abundantly clear: that was an issue with this one specific person's behavior, not lesbians in general. I'd have reacted the exact same way to any male pulling the same stunts, minus stating that they're the wrong sex for me. I know several perfectly wonderful lesbians, including some who freely joke around about their sexuality and make me laugh while they're at it.)
      It might be it's a thing only in certain regions. It might be it's something about her - not that she's "bringing it it on", but maybe she's simply, say, the cute, petite and busty sort, as opposed to having more model-type beautiful face, being tall and "averagely-endowed." As in, people won't assume she could knock someone to the floor when looking at her. I know my smaller and cuter acquaintance had a couple of odd encounters in Switzerland (and mind, that "small, cute" acquaintance of mine is a semi-professional dancer and actually has more upper arm muscle than I ... it's just her face and height) while I got a couple of random people just talking at me, but not one inappropriate comment. I probably also wandered about on my own quite a bit more.
      And I by no means have "one in three has been sexually harassed" ratio among my female acquaintances. I'd also say that the ratio of general abuse is roughly the same between females and males, but the latter is much less likely to believe that they're being abused. (Indeed ... some do put up with constant abuse and then mutter something about "But I'm not a perfect person, either," when pointed it out. Guy, I have known you for years, I know what you're like, and I tell you, neither you nor any other halfway decent person deserves something like that.)
      So ... yeah. Being where I am, I'm inclined to believe it's not "all the time, everywhere, it *will* happen to you if you are female and go into gaming," kind of deal, but rather a set of occasional, regretful instances. It's terrible that those things happen. It's important that people who do things like that are held accountable. But! It's also important we remember that those people are the rare freaks that occasionally pop up here and there, not the common populace. They are the abnormalities, the ones who don't belong, not the nice guys and gals.

      Point three. Who should protect who and why, and what to fight against. As noted above, it's the individuals who exhibit the tendencies, not the group as such.
      As for keeping the place safe ... that's everyone's job, equally. Everyone should know some self defense, male or female. Good exercise, too. Everyone should take some precautions (I know male aquaintances who're a head taller than I who have had knives held over their throats or ran for their lives ... I myself intervened a knifefight one time, between two individuals larger than I, may I add). Safety is everyone's deal. Everyone should stand up. Everyone should bring such things to light there and then.
      There was this snippet above: " it's the fault of every ball-less asshole who didn't stand up" - but why only? If you don't know where the others stand, and the person undergoing the harassment doesn't show willingness to fight, then how is the person who stood by any worse than the victim who also did nothing? They have as much right to not be beaten to a pulp than anyone else, even if they weren't the original target. Realistically, fighting against two or more people at once is liable to end badly, be you male or female or a head taller than either of the two people fighting you. (It only takes a tiny woman with a sharp knife to kill a bodybuilder, giving the right circumstances.) If there is no danger of being beaten to a pulp, then why did the victim not react? There are plenty of people who have stood up for strangers and then ended up taking all the flak, including from the person they were trying to defend. Or at least have the person deny something ever happened, leaving the defender in a very awkward place.
      Granted, if I ever saw something like that, I'd intervene, much like I intervened the knifefight some eight years ago. I'm inherently a soldier, a protector, a warrior. To fight, to set myself on the frontline is what I naturally do. But those I'm protecting should ideally also show some initiative, some feist. Doesn't matter if they're "small and weak". Strength lies in numbers more than the might of any specific individual (you try fighting if someone is kicking at the backs of your knees). Might not be even be physical. Can be simply words or text, or going behind the corner and calling the police. Going behind the corner and calling the police is fighting, too. It's *doing something* to fix what's wrong. Giving a testimony is fighting. Fighting comes in many forms, including the courage to say "Yes, this happened," or "This person only did so to protect me." Everyone should fight their own way, but everyone should fight what's wrong, be it by might, by word, or just by supporting the people on the frontline.

[Shjade]

I think its mentioned its not all her, some are stories from different people and i am incredibly tempted to go with an old fisherman tale but lets just take her at her word.

I am going to leave the story about the spiked drink out front because that is one i do have trouble with, in details and in follow up both

The thing that bothers me in all this is that in every case "she" is incredibly passive. I know 3 female gamers well enough to make an educated guess at what would happen, one of them works in the military police in my country if something like that happened to her i am more or less sure there would be injuries. That and i do not think tubby would start shit with her. The two of the others are both the kind that can put anybody down a peg verbally if provoked. I can not imagine either of them standing around going "oh gosh" I dont want to slide into victim blaming but for fuck sake do something.

No idea maybe i am confrontational, maybe its a national trait sort of its not necessarily always good but i just can not imagine in almost any of these situations just standing there.     

All of this is post-event. Your response to the piece is focusing on what these women did or did not do in response to how they were treated, as if it would somehow retroactively change how they had been treated.

Their reaction (or lack thereof) is irrelevant: whatever was done to them had already been done by the time they could react to it; that's what a reaction is.

Suggesting their response to inappropriate behavior is in any way related to the cause of that inappropriate behavior is pretty textbook victim-blaming. You might want to look into that. And if that's also "the thing that bothers you" about this, not, y'know, the really obvious and myriad examples of inappropriate behavior toward women?

You need to check your priorities.

[Far eyes]

You need to check your priorities.

Key, you can check my post after that for a better attempt at what i was attempting for in that post. I am not saying the event was not bad or that it was there fault or brought on by them

[Lustful Bride]

You need to check your priorities.

Careful there, sounds abit too much like "Check your privilege"

No one here is being hostile, and like FE said, I think its a good idea to read the later posts first.

[Skynet]

And now it's hit greater media.

[TheGlyphstone]

Can anyone identify the upside-down board game in the header photo?

[Aethereal]

Suggesting their response to inappropriate behavior is in any way related to the cause of that inappropriate behavior is pretty textbook victim-blaming.

I don't quite understand what you're getting at here? Obviously, the *reaction* (being post the fact) did not cause the inappropriate behavior, and no one has said that "they called it upon herself by doing X", which is what I consider the most standard example of victim-blaming.
        What people have been saying is that if something like that happens, you should act in response afterwards, with you being either the victim, or the witnesses ... basically everyone who doesn't approve. A reaction won't undo what happened, but it *can* help prevent future similar occasions, meaning that in the end, the overall amount of victims will be less. If nothing happens, the assailants will come to expect no repercussions.

[Far eyes]

Well that provides a bit more context to the whole thing.

Just leaving everything ells out for now

"white male terrorism"

"noun
the unofficial or unauthorized use of violence and intimidation in the pursuit of political aims."

Yeeey lets get the really brad brush, and just slap everybody with it. I wish they would stop with this shit its not helpful to anybody and in detracts from the actual topic.

Now back to the topic.

Until now.

BULL SHIT, there was always some issues around it just like any other social issue it did not just fall out of the fucking sky now. I started gaming in 90s it was a subject then as well as it kept being an occasional subject all trough out my time in the gaming club i helped out in/i guess sort of worked in. It was and is an issue along with race, nationalism*, people just being assholes to each other and tempers flaring up. I fucking hate this myth that this shit is somehow new, it is not a special thing to this generation or time.

*maybe more relevant in my neck of the woods, i am not sure how much it would crop up in the us

[Renegade Vile]

And now it's hit greater media.

Looking at what else the author wrote, I'm pretty sure what kind of "journalist" I'm dealing with here, without even having to read that article.

geek culture's long history of harassment

*sighs* This is bad for my blood pressure.

[Silk]

I always find the concept of victim-blaming a interesting yet silly one. Which is also only appears to be applied to very select levels of cases.

I mean, don't get me wrong in some cases it's absolutely a thing. But by the same If I was to walk into a building site unsupervised and without proper safety equipment, I don't then get to sue to construction company then blow off any attempt at my own actions as victim blaming, Does it suck that it happens, absolutely, was I aware of the risks when going into the situation and/or exasibated the situation with my own actions, potentially, and it's not something that should be brushed off. We are fully functioning adults that understand consequences and responsibilities for our actions or lack thereof.

It sucks, but jeez come on, I've seen situations where people go full obnoxious "I'm the only gay in the villiage" special snowflake, then kick up a fuss about how they don't feel included, then when challenged with their conduct its "You're only saying that because I'm -------". Sometimes it's not about what you are, and is entirely down to who you are and how you conduct yourself. As for this article, it's so painfully one sidedly written that it's almost impossible to believe. Especially given the potential connotations of what could happen if it is a false claim.

My brother was once falsely accused of rape, because a girl he was with lied about her age and was in fact below the legal age, which also meant she shouldn't of been in the night club in question. When her parents found out she quickly called on the "He raped me" card on social media and later on the police, thankfully he was aquitted of charges given the curcumstances. But not before he was attacked several times in the street by do-gooder vigilanties that believed her out of hand one attack of which leaving him in hospital.

[Sho]

This is the first time I’ve ever been this disappointed in E’s discussions and understanding of issues. :/ Maybe it’s just me, maybe I’m being sensitive, and maybe I’m reading too much into the comments above, but…here’s what I’m getting from it:

You guys think that the gaming community has NO problem with its culture when it comes to sexism.
If a woman is harassed, she is obliged to stand up for herself and cannot count on anyone to help her.
Men shouldn’t jump in and defend a woman who doesn’t defend herself, because they shouldn’t put themselves at risk.

For those of you who keep saying “well, I haven’t experienced this!”…that’s fabulous. I’m really super thrilled that your experience with the gaming community has been amazing and that you never had any issues.

Sucks that you don’t believe that some people do, though.

I’m one of those people.

I matured young: at thirteen or fourteen I had what my local game shop owner said was a “bangin’ body”. I was a 34C, 26 waist, 32 hips. I was also shy and a huge nerd and generally pretty scared of dating, but hey, I looked like a girl who was down to fuck, right?

That’s how a good deal of the gamers treated me.

I had a guy reach under my chair and try to finger me. I’ve had multiple guys slap my ass or brush their crotches up against me. I’ve been hit on both awkwardly and charmingly, and I’ve been asked to play the healer because ‘that’s a girl’s role!’. I literally got so tired of having guys stare at my breasts or make snide comments about women that I stopped playing all tabletop, RPG or fantasy-based games until a few weeks ago. Why didn’t I leave? Because when things were good, they were amazing, and I didn’t really fit in anywhere else. So I put up with behavior then that I wouldn’t dream of putting up with now. At that point in my life, I wasn’t mature enough to really know how to snap back verbally or physically…and my guy friends just shrugged off the behavior and pointed out that they weren’t like that.

Yeah, not all the guy were terrible. Maybe 95% of the time things were great, but that 5% was so fucking awful and no one stood up (and I was scared to stand up or fight back because I didn’t want to get hurt or have people hate me, and I didn’t know how) to help me. I’ve worked in multiple industries, including in bars, and frankly the worst experiences I’ve ever had were in gaming situations, mostly because no one ever stepped in to help.

Here’s a question I’ve always had…if ‘not all the gaming guys are awful’, then why don’t they instead say “holy shit, that’s so fucking terrible that you were treated that way! I can’t believe that! We’re going to make sure no one deals with that and we’re going to tell the whole group that things like that aren’t acceptable!”? Instead, all I ever heard was “…well, we’re sorry that some guys suck, but y’know, it’s just how it is, so…”.

I genuinely DON’T believe all guys who game are terrible. I think it’s a really small group, but that group REALLY SUCKS. I just wish that the onus wasn’t 100% on women to stand up, and that some of those ‘not so bad’ gamer guys would jump in as well. The ones at my current office would, but none of the ones where I group up would…and that’s really fucking sad.

Anyways. A bit rambling, but I had to point out that multiple women have had REALLY shitty experiences in these groups, and that they CAN be super unwelcoming. I’m just really disappointed that people here don’t seem to believe that.

[Oniya]

The problem with people saying 'All ______ aren't like that' is that it changes the focus of the discussion.  The problem is that some gamers are like that.  Otherwise, incidents like this wouldn't happen at all.  The question we should be discussing is 'How do we get them to stop being like that?'

[Skynet]

I'm sorry for what you went through, Sho. And you're not being sensitive; it's disheartening to see people shut down and insist that claims of harassment and sexism are overblown, or insist that "boths sides are just as bad" as though victims are as much at fault as the jerkasses.

I will admit that I haven't talked about this as much elsewhere on the part of seeing how vicious some of these toxic gamers can be on this, in that I fear for myself and my friends in that I've seen some of the worst nurse a vendetta and go after folks even tangentially tied to a gaming group. My profile on E is more or less disconnected from the rest of the Internet, so I feel more at liberty to talk here.

I can offer you little more than sympathy and hopes that things improve.

[Aethereal]

The problem with people saying 'All ______ aren't like that' is that it changes the focus of the discussion.  The problem is that some gamers are like that.  Otherwise, incidents like this wouldn't happen at all.  The question we should be discussing is 'How do we get them to stop being like that?'

That actually boils down to what I pointed out earlier: if someone attacks a group you belong to (let alone a group you have personally never seen behaving this way), then most people's first reaction is to retaliate. By stating "___ are like that!", you will automatically have targeted everyone who belongs to the group, and thus, "No, we aren't" is pretty much inevitably the reaction you will get.

    ___, indeed, aren't like that. This one person was like that. Or those five people were like that. It's this person, or those five people, who are at fault, not ___ as such. You don't need to take care of ___, because the overwhelming majority of them are, indeed, decent people. You need to take care of those select few who are not, independent of what their hobbies are or are not. There are plenty of people who are also assholes just like that, but don't belong to ___. They are the exact same problem.

[Sho]

Here's the thing: No, not ALL gamers are like that. No, not ALL men are like that. But ENOUGH gamers are that the men who aren't maybe should lash out at the men who are, rather than the women who point out the inappropriate behavior.

Just to be clear, Shienvien, is your argument really: "Not all male gamers are bad people, so when you relay the bad experiences you've had, you need to couch your language to make it clear that those abusers were only a small subsection of the group because the good guys might get confused that you're accusing them"?

Based on your experience, male gamers don't exhibit sexism or bad behavior. Based on my experience, there is a notable portion of male gamers who do, and it is a larger portion of men than I have found in other areas of my life (and I work in tech). I think that the hobby and the generally male-dominated culture does have some effect on how females are treated in some of the groups, but if you don't think it's relevant and you think all sexism is equal across groups, hobbies, and professions, then that's your prerogative. 

[Aethereal]

       In my experience, sexism is indeed no more prevalent in gaming than anywhere else, yes (I personally have seen more of it in other places, but strangely not in my work environment), and men are no more likely to go pulling that kind of stunts than women.

       And there is a very distinct difference between stating X happened at location Y at time Z and speaking of "white male terrorism in gaming" like the articles linked earlier in the thread. The latter inches into the realm of senseless hate-speech which does good to exactly none.

[Pumpkin Seeds]

I find sexism to be pretty prevalent in the gaming community.  Fortunately a gaming store did open up here that goes out of its way to make women feel comfortable inside the store and the owner has thrown out more than one customer for inappropriate actions and comments.  Before then I refused to go into the gaming store after a few incidents there.

[Oniya]

So, what do we do about the toxic gamers? 

[Far eyes]

The gaming club i helped in and was a part of for meany years delta with them by talking to them. In a lot of cases its not actually something they "mean" its often something stupid they just say. And this is not purely on sexism this is that, racism and nationalism the later is what we mostly death with. For the duration i was there, for cases i am aware of only like a hand full of people needed to be told that "Look you arent welcome back, leave now" but confronting people with the weight of "WE this gaming club" was often times enough to adjust behavior. And i do not mean this in shaming or an aggressive manner. Really often times its the most important thing that it is known that "XYZ is not ok here"

[Avis habilis]

So, what do we do about the toxic gamers? 

What the owner in Pumpkin Seeds' example did. Expel them from the group. Make it unmistakably clear that nobody is going to put up with their resentment-fueled intimidation campaign. Pull that sort of stunt, even once, & you're out. No save.

[Aethereal]

So, what do we do about the toxic gamers?

The exact same we do with toxic anyone. They either behave, or the door is that way.

[Oniya]

Next question - why isn't this being done often enough that the toxic gamers get a freaking clue?

[Avis habilis]

Because too many of the people in the position to eject them either support harassment or don't want to rock the boat because they've bought into the line that calling someone out as a harasser is exactly as bad as inflicting harassment because both sides! Why, it's almost as if it were a cultural problem.

[Pumpkin Seeds]

The owner in particular did a few things to make the shop friendlier in general.  First was the level of professionalism.  Every worker there wore a uniform shirt, remained either at the counter or working and maintained an engaged but professional manner.  The store was well lit and cleaned regularly.  Bathrooms were cleaned, there was a diaper changing board for the restroom and a little scent basket.  He kept cameras in the store for security and he also made that sure everyone picked up after themselves.  If someone took down scenery for a wargame, they were expected to put it back.  Card gamers were expected to pick up their newly purchased wrappings and boxes.  Roleplayers were not allowed to “borrow” books from the shelf for rule reference.  So that level of professionalism and of actually owning a business went a long way.

That leads to my answering of the second question.  Aside from this store and a couple others, one which was a textbook store the employees convinced the owner to sell gaming material, the gaming stores seem run by enthusiasts that want to make a living doing what they love.  The problem is the business is treated second to the socializing and playing aspect of the store.  Therefore when someone is chasing off female customers with rude comments, making a woman feel uncomfortable in the store or in general acting up there is a hesitancy to chase off a “friend” or “regular.”  Such people treat the store as their local watering hole, make themselves at home and pretty much grow roots.  Others consider this person part of the status quo and are reluctant to disrupt the peace of their hobby store, after all they are there to relax and have some fun.  "Jimmy didn't mean anything."  "Stop being dramatic, just like a woman."  "We're just having some fun."  The entire store then gets treated as a boy’s club unless someone breaks that up.

I do not think gamers want to insult people or make them uncomfortable.  Still if the atmosphere is there than those same gamers will try to fit into the status quo, let peer pressure guide their comments or at least keep their silence.  As Far Eyes pointed out, peer pressure is often enough to change someone’s behavior.  Used right that would be all that is required.  The store owner putting a hand on someone’s shoulder and shaking his head, a respected war gamer telling someone to show respect or something of that nature would be enough. All communities have a pecking order and leadership.  Problem is when the leadership is silent or are the ones leading the ridicule. 

[Aethereal]

Next question - why isn't this being done often enough that the toxic gamers get a freaking clue?

Considering that I've neither experienced or witnessed it, it can perhaps be assumed that some places *do* do it often enough... Safe to say, if I were to ever witness someone pulling those kinds of stunts, I'd step up, the same way I have with any non-gaming related incident.
      I reckon it's to do with people either not noticing or not caring, though. With those, a little information and no needless antagonization of entire groups should go a long way. Again, if a person is problematic, it's that person, not whatever might be even vaguely associated with them. (For the matter, I'll also object to statements like "all muslims are terrorists," "all black people are criminals" which are wrong in roughly the same fashion.)

[Oniya]

I don't agree with the 'all X are Y' attitude either, which is why I said 'some'.  We've agreed on that.

Moving forward - I've seen gaming stores fail for exactly the reasons that Pumpkin Seeds pointed out.  Waaaay back when I lived in the NoVA area, there was a guy I knew who ran a store and treated it like his own private kingdom instead of a business.  Didn't help that the 'king' was a jerk of the first order.  He was an 'equal-opportunity' jerk as well.  If you were a stranger to the 'crowd' and raised any amount of fuss, you weren't worth his time.

Personally, I think that there could be some advantage to approaching this from the 'business' end of things.  Pointing out to a store-keeper that a particular troublemaker is driving away potential customers avoids the 'all X are Y' aspect (because dudebro over there is the issue, not 'society') and gives a reason that even the most socially inept can follow:  Dudebro is costing you money.

[Tairis]

Because too many of the people in the position to eject them either support harassment or don't want to rock the boat because they've bought into the line that calling someone out as a harasser is exactly as bad as inflicting harassment because both sides! Why, it's almost as if it were a cultural problem.

Or, far more likely than a cultural conspiracy of sexism, it's the simple fact that the majority of people hate confrontation. It's why the more blatant abusers are able to get away with much of what they do because most individuals actively avoid uncomfortable confrontations. Their animal brain goes 'someone will say something, I don't need to' or some other justification that allows them to ignore the problem. We as a species do it all the time and it doesn't have anything to do with endorsing harassment. We simply live in a time and age where we have become unaccustomed to direct conflict with people in our social circles. We'd much rather talk shit about them on facebook or make passive-aggressive comments.

Oniya is correct, though, in that this situations should always be brought up to business owners and made very clear: I am not comfortable shopping here and spending money here because of how one of your customers is acting towards me. Enlightened self interest might not be as noble, but it's a lot more effective. It also removes the person in authority from making a moral decision to a financial one, again enlightened self interest.

[Pumpkin Seeds]

The financial motive would work if the main motivation of the business owner is to make money.  As pointed out earlier, this may not necessarily be the case.  Also the owner has to believe or at least understand that by maintaining a presence with women there is money to be generated.  So this also falls on customers to either back up the store owner or walk out if this sort of behavior is happening.

[Tairis]

The financial motive would work if the main motivation of the business owner is to make money.  As pointed out earlier, this may not necessarily be the case.  Also the owner has to believe or at least understand that by maintaining a presence with women there is money to be generated.  So this also falls on customers to either back up the store owner or walk out if this sort of behavior is happening.

Quite true, and if they do that it will quickly become a financial issue for the store owner. In the end its always up to the individual to step up.

[Sethala]

Can anyone identify the upside-down board game in the header photo?

Looks like Pandemic.  Cooperative game about treating and curing diseases.

[Wajin]

Let me preface this by saying that I was an avid supporter of the PART of GamerGate that genuinely was concerned with the blatant disregard for journalistic ethics in the Gaming Media. During that time I went out of my way, often to the chagrin of people I knew, to call out the harassers and the "Misogynists" and I use the word reluctantly, as the country many members of my father see as their ancestral homeland has misogyny codified as law.

I hate this debate, I really, really do, first of all, because the groups I've been playing with, and the stores and events I've gone to has only had these problems a tiny amount of times, and when problems have come up they've been dealt with swiftly, and harshly. I don't know ANY TG gamer of ANY kind who has ever not stood up when someone's being a pig or an asshole.

Is it horrible what the author went through, if it is indeed a single person, and not a collection of experiences as has been suggested by some. But as I've also heard people in this thread say, it should not reflect on the vast majority of us.

I will end this by saying how disgusted, and yes that feeling I felt, at the use of the word Terrorism. No matter how grave the situation has been for you, or for a small group of people, it's not fucking terrorism, and using a word like that, with a clearly defined meaning. What is worse, is the fact that the author CHOSE to post this piece a mere day after the Brussels attacks.... and dares to use that word...

[Kythia]

I will end this by saying how disgusted, and yes that feeling I felt, at the use of the word Terrorism. No matter how grave the situation has been for you, or for a small group of people, it's not fucking terrorism, and using a word like that, with a clearly defined meaning. What is worse, is the fact that the author CHOSE to post this piece a mere day after the Brussels attacks.... and dares to use that word...

Mmmkay, errrm. To me, the author gave a definition of the word "terrorism" as it is defined by the Canadian courts (one would assume she's Canadian) and showed how what she was describing fit that definition.  It kind of seems like if you object to her using a national and government defined definition of a word to describe a situation covered by that word then your issue might be with the field of semantics as a whole rather than her?  Like, if I use the word "bicycle" correctly and you feel disgusted by that - I can't help but feel that that's because you haven't understood how words work, rather than through any fault of mine. 

I've been deliberately avoiding this conversation but this was just...what? I mean, you mention it has a clearly defined meaning and, yes, she quoted it.  And tried to show how the situation she was describing fit it.  It's a little difficult to really understand your objection here.  Maybe I'm misunderstanding you?  I might be as I certainly don't understand the reference to/relevance of the Brussels attacks.

[Wajin]

Mmmkay, errrm. To me, the author gave a definition of the word "terrorism" as it is defined by the Canadian courts (one would assume she's Canadian) and showed how what she was describing fit that definition.  It kind of seems like if you object to her using a national and government defined definition of a word to describe a situation covered by that word then your issue might be with the field of semantics as a whole rather than her?  Like, if I use the word "bicycle" correctly and you feel disgusted by that - I can't help but feel that that's because you haven't understood how words work, rather than through any fault of mine. 

I've been deliberately avoiding this conversation but this was just...what? I mean, you mention it has a clearly defined meaning and, yes, she quoted it.  And tried to show how the situation she was describing fit it.  It's a little difficult to really understand your objection here.  Maybe I'm misunderstanding you?  I might be as I certainly don't understand the reference to/relevance of the Brussels attacks.

Here's what the UN has to say on the subject: Criminal acts intended or calculated to provoke a state of terror in the public, a group of persons or particular persons for political purposes are in any circumstance unjustifiable, whatever the considerations of a political, philosophical, ideological, racial, ethnic, religious or any other nature that may be invoked to justify them

I study law here in Denmark, and our professor talked to us at length about the watering down of words like Terrorism in a legal sense. In Denmark's own criminal code it says the following about terrorism

§ 114 For terrorism, the punishment is imprisonment for life for any who with intent seeks to scare a population, or unjustly seeks to force danish or foreign public authorities or an international organization to take action or fail to take action; or to destabilize or destroy a country or international organizations fundamental political, constitutional, economical or societal structure, performs any of the following actions, when the action, in regards to its character or context, could cause a country or international organization serious harm.

I would like to believe that what is outlined above is the international standard when considering an action to be terroism or not. Calling something like this terrorism is hyperbolic to me. I am sure that Canada has laws regard criminal intimidation or coercion. If said laws have been folded into the terrorism law, then I truly do think that it needs to be looked at again, otherwise I could foresee quite a lot of situations that could be termed terrorism by Canadian standards.

Raw Danish text

§ 114. For terrorisme straffes med fængsel indtil på livstid den, som med forsæt til at skræmme en befolkning i alvorlig grad eller uretmæssigt at tvinge danske eller udenlandske offentlige myndigheder eller en international organisation til at foretage eller undlade at foretage en handling eller at destabilisere eller ødelægge et lands eller en international organisations grundlæggende politiske, forfatningsmæssige, økonomiske eller samfundsmæssige strukturer begår en eller flere af følgende handlinger, når handlingen i kraft af sin karakter eller den sammenhæng, hvori den begås, kan tilføje et land eller en international organisation alvorlig skade

[Aethereal]

         It's a sense of language issue to me - as I see it, terrorism is a systematic (violent) illegal act or series of acts with the intended purpose of inflicting terror, and enforcing cooperation through said terror. I'm inclined to agree with Wajin here - "terrorism" is not really an apt word to be used in this context. Not everything horrible or atrocious is by default terrorism.

[Kythia]

I would like to believe that what is outlined above is the international standard when considering an action to be terroism or not. Calling something like this terrorism is hyperbolic to me. I am sure that Canada has laws regard criminal intimidation or coercion. If said laws have been folded into the terrorism law, then I truly do think that it needs to be looked at again, otherwise I could foresee quite a lot of situations that could be termed terrorism by Canadian standards.

I mean, you can like to believe it if you want, but clearly the Canadian government disagree with you.  She quotes a section:

Section 83.01 of the Criminal Code of Canada defines terrorism as an act committed “in whole or in part for a political, religious or ideological purpose, objective or cause” and with the intention of intimidating the public “…with regard to its security, including its economic security, or compelling a person, a government or a domestic or an international organization to do or to refrain from doing any act.”

and then goes on to state her case that that is the relevant law to apply to her situation.  Now, there are discussions to be had about whether she's right or not but she claims, in essence that people with a political/ideological cause are attempting to compel her, a person, to refrain from doing an act.  If that is what is happening then the Canadian definition of terrorism seems to fit.

I have perhaps some sympathy for your and Shienvien's argument that this definition waters down the term, but that's not her fault.  She's used the legal term correctly, your issue there is with the Canadian Government not with her.  And "disgust" seems an incredibly over the top reaction to the fact that a country defines an issue differently to your own.

[Pumpkin Seeds]

The United States has a very similiar definition in regard to domestic terrorism to Canada.

[Aethereal]

        I'm not entirely sure how much that statement applies even in regards to that definition. As I see it, it has less to do with people with some ideological agenda going about (systematically) intimidating someone to make them feel insecure enough to leave (I guess their intent would be making them leave?), and more to do with a number of individuals who just don't seem to get or care what is acceptable behaviour and what isn't. The ... essence of the issue is slightly different.

[Kythia]

Indeed it is.  And, as I say, there's some sensible argument to be had about whether she's right or not - from the quote she gives there's no requirement for this to be systematic or their actions to be entirely due to their ideologies (it specifically state it only needs to be "in part" due to them.)  But I'm neither Canadian nor a lawyer.

But that wasn't Wajin's problem.  Wajim's disgust was, as best I understand it, caused by her daring to suggest that this was the appropriate law to apply in this situation.  I initially didn't see what his issue was, then I found it a hilarious overreaction.

[Aethereal]

       There are also the intent to intimidate and compel someone to act in a specific way... All in all, it feels like you would have to stretch even the (Canadian) definition some to make it sort-of fit. Hence I feel that it would still have more to do with harassment and assault laws, and not the ones pertaining terrorism. 
      While I definitely won't call what is described "terrorism" myself, I'm however inclined to agree that "disgust" is also a pretty strong word to use.

[Pumpkin Seeds]

I think the question would likely come down to if this is an effort by a group inside the gamer community to illicit a reaction from another group, namely women in this case, through fear and intimidation.  That may be the inference she is trying to make by using the word terrorism.

[Sethala]

Mmmkay, errrm. To me, the author gave a definition of the word "terrorism" as it is defined by the Canadian courts (one would assume she's Canadian) and showed how what she was describing fit that definition.  It kind of seems like if you object to her using a national and government defined definition of a word to describe a situation covered by that word then your issue might be with the field of semantics as a whole rather than her?  Like, if I use the word "bicycle" correctly and you feel disgusted by that - I can't help but feel that that's because you haven't understood how words work, rather than through any fault of mine. 

I've been deliberately avoiding this conversation but this was just...what? I mean, you mention it has a clearly defined meaning and, yes, she quoted it.  And tried to show how the situation she was describing fit it.  It's a little difficult to really understand your objection here.  Maybe I'm misunderstanding you?  I might be as I certainly don't understand the reference to/relevance of the Brussels attacks.

It's worth noting that the entire section that quote is from reads:

(b) an act or omission, in or outside Canada,

    (i) that is committed

        (A) in whole or in part for a political, religious or ideological purpose, objective or cause, and

        (B) in whole or in part with the intention of intimidating the public, or a segment of the public, with regard to its security, including its economic security, or compelling a person, a government or a domestic or an international organization to do or to refrain from doing any act, whether the public or the person, government or organization is inside or outside Canada, and

    (ii) that intentionally

        (A) causes death or serious bodily harm to a person by the use of violence,

        (B) endangers a person’s life,

        (C) causes a serious risk to the health or safety of the public or any segment of the public,

        (D) causes substantial property damage, whether to public or private property, if causing such damage is likely to result in the conduct or harm referred to in any of clauses (A) to (C), or

        (E) causes serious interference with or serious disruption of an essential service, facility or system, whether public or private, other than as a result of advocacy, protest, dissent or stoppage of work that is not intended to result in the conduct or harm referred to in any of clauses (A) to (C),

So it not only has to fulfill the criteria mentioned by the author, but also has to fulfill at least one criteria from the second group.  Which... while what happened to the author is horrible, is a pretty severe stretch to fit any of those other criteria.  Not to mention several more sections that narrow the definition of "terrorism" down even further - and, if I'm understanding this right (and full admission, I know little enough about law that a lot of this is making my head spin), an act has to fulfill all of the criteria for it to fit under "terrorism".

Personally, this really bothers me.  Not only is she trying to make an emotional appeal by making it sound like this is somehow on par with hijacking airplanes and armed assault, but then she doubles down on it by making an appeal to authority by making it sound like the law supports her definition, when it clearly has a much more narrow scope.

Anyway, if anyone with more legal knowledge than myself wants to chime in, the full law is at http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/C-46/page-12.html#h-25

[Pumpkin Seeds]

Her definition would fit into the area of C in the second list.