Sin

[LostInTheMist]

Let me start by saying that I am religious (I'm in a church of the Evangelical Lutheran Church of America, which is pretty liberal, and my church is liberal even by ELCA standards) and I would PREFER that this thread be populated by other people who have religion. Which religion isn't important, but I would really like to talk to people who are men, women, or other of faith about this issue I'm having. This issue is:

I hate Donald Trump. I want him to die.

My faith teaches me that both of those are sins. I don't pray for Donald Trump to die. But I want him to die. And every day I wake up and he's still alive, I'm a little disappointed. Seeing him give a speech, I'm filled with rage, and a seething hatred. I don't like feeling this way. I will NEVER support Donald Trump or his policies or his political party. Politics will never not be important to me, I can't change my major eight years after graduating from my University. (A top political University in the nation. They put the word "Liberal" in Liberal Arts... still too conservative for my tastes.)

So please... I want to stop hating him... I want to stop hoping for him to die. What do you do? How do you do this? CAN you do this?

[Scribbles]

I won't press it beyond this single post but you should consider leaving the door open for all perspectives, especially if you're looking for solutions to a problem. Even those of us who don't practice a religion have to wrestle with our baser emotions, and some might even hold unique insights.

[TheGlyphstone]

Have you spoken to your...*checks*...pastor about this? Assuming they know their job, which the good ones do, they're most likely to have the experience and knowledge to help you work it out.

[AmberStarfire]

I would say explore your reasons why you feel the way you do.

He holds the fate and wellbeing of so many people in his hands, whether he deserves it or not. In the interests of those people, it's important he does his job as well as he can for as long a time as he's in office. Someone in that role needs to, and even though he isn't making choices many people would want, he's keeping things running.

He might benefit from greater wisdom, compassion toward others, and encouragement in making the right choices. Prayers in that regard might be more constructive than death.

It's an odd suggestion, but.. have you considered entering politics yourself? As you said, you studied it. Often frustration leads to anger.

[Oreo]

I don't know if it will be a help, but I generally find comfort in this when I am not happy with who is in office:

He changes times and seasons; He removes kings and sets up kings; He gives wisdom to the wise and knowledge to those who have understanding. Daniel 2:21

There is a time and a place for all things. It helps me trust that things will work together for good. I can let go of wishing bad things to others.

[Tolvo]

Hello, I know I'm not of any faith but I thought I might give a suggestion. Have you considered therapy? They won't really be able to help you on what the nature of sin is, but with Dialectical and Cognitive Behavioral Therapy they can possibly help you gain control more over your own thoughts and thinking processes. It can help a lot of people. Hating people is almost unavoidable in life, especially Trump who is someone who could be considered about 90% evil, give or take. But when it is impacting your life and has become an obsession it might be a good idea to try therapy if you can. I'm not saying you have a disorder or mental illness(Though there's nothing wrong with having either of those things) but therapy could help you with making it less of an obsession and even thinking in a different way that you want to work towards. I have been taught both DBT and CBT before and it really helped me personally.

[Vekseid]

If someone makes you angry simply for the social power they hold over others, then hating them blinds you to the real problem.

Some people support Trump because they feel that eight years under Obama was insulting.

Some people support Trump because he 'triggers the libs'.

Some people support Trump because they have been fed lies, ignorance, and hate.

Some people support Trump out of raw tribalism - the sort of people who vote Republican or Tory come hell or high water, no matter what.

Some people support Trump because they believe he will enact policies and appoint justices to save unborn children.

Some Libertarians believe that taxation through inflation and interest spending is better than direct taxation. Either that or they believe Republicans will reduce spending. Hasn't happened in decades, but still.



Any emotional investment you give Trump or nearly anyone else is distracting you from what you can do to address the root causes of the above.

[MisledBloodshed]

I'll apologize off the bat because I know I can't connect to this on a religious level. I have a great deal more understanding of what it feels like to have emotions that you aren't comfortable with, though. Especially when those emotions run counter to your own morals/beliefs.

I'm not sure that everything I would have to say on the matter would work for you, there aren't any one size fits all solutions to things. But the main thing I would say - if it helps at all - is that accepting your emotions tends to make them easier to deal with. Pushing things to the side can just make more problems. It is completely understandable that you hate him, he has done horrible things and likely will continue to do so given the opportunity. I would also prefer to see him out of the picture, to put it lightly.

However I am also someone who can deal with being angry, it doesn't wear on my conscience. But there are things that have put a similar strain on me in the past, the details of which I don't imagine I need to go into here. What helped me in that situation was to distance myself from the issue as much as possible. I can understand not wanting to distance yourself because trying to do so can feel like you're just trying to put your head in the sand, but it is difficult to do anything about a situation that is causing you that much distress. The only other suggestion I would have would be to try and put some distance between you and the topic entirely, if you can. It helped for me, but again your mileage may vary, it was comparatively a lot easier for me to distance myself from my issue.

Hopefully this helped in any way, if not, best of luck finding something that does.

[Fierbali111]

Im going to sound like the devils advocate here but have you thought of how you got to the point of wanting someone to die?

Also, I would start by understanding who trump is and why he was elected. Trump is a tv personality who got elected for his raw and  vulgar personality, a polar opposite of what all politicians are today. Many people on the states are angry at the screw ups of politicians time and time again, so, to show their displeasure at how they think of politics as a joke, they elect trump and trump turns politics into that joke, which is what the people wanted. Secondly that man you see on tv isn't who he really is. Look at video when he was younger and you see someone who has a much better vocabulary and is surprisingly soft spoken. It's all an act, just see it as such and go about your day, at the end of it nothing really changes no matter who's in power.

[Evilcupcakecat]

You don't have to stop hating anyone based on your religion. You have different opinions of what is right and wrong, they don't need to line up perfectly with others in your religious community.

[Iniquitous]

You shouldn't hate anyone. No matter what your religion is.  Dislike? Sure. Disagree with? Of course.  Hate? No.

[RedRose]

There is such a thing as righteous anger. Do I think it's wrong to hope a serial killer (who won't stop) dies? No

[DrFier]

Hate is the one thing a Christian is not supposed to do, but I feel like we all have trouble with it sometimes.  I struggle with blasphemes and pedophiles myself.  For me, when I see a troublesome individual I do tend to hope that the damage they cause will be contained in some form, and it may occasionally be the case that the only valid method for that is death.  It would be a sad outcome regardless.  I believe that ultimately the kingdom will be open to all people and hate would have no place there.  Sometimes though, when struggling with sin we ultimately have to humble ourselves and remember that there was only one who ever lived without it.

[karkas132]

It is common for Christians to grapple with hate but its a human emotion thats as natural as breathing. However sometimes you have to ask yourself whether your hate is misplaced. Now, i'm no Trump supporter but if there is ONE thing i've learned since the end of the 2016 elections its this. People are so often misrepresented and taken out of context its insane. Please take a few minutes to watch this video, it is parody in nature but it does make a good point and is a position I often find myself in.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1eq0X4qDlR0

People often accuse Trump of being a racist yet through many of the policies under his administration banks have had to stop discriminating as much in business loans and as such we've seen a rise in minority business ownership as high as 300%. Places under conservative administrations right now are flourishing while places under liberal administration like my own hometown of Portland Oregon are suffering immensely due to the increase in socialistic policies being emplaced.

Trump is something of a dullard i'll give you that, but the democratic left has lost its absolute marbles lately.

[Skynet]

It is common for Christians to grapple with hate but its a human emotion thats as natural as breathing. However sometimes you have to ask yourself whether your hate is misplaced. Now, i'm no Trump supporter but if there is ONE thing i've learned since the end of the 2016 elections its this. People are so often misrepresented and taken out of context its insane. Please take a few minutes to watch this video, it is parody in nature but it does make a good point and is a position I often find myself in.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1eq0X4qDlR0

People often accuse Trump of being a racist yet through many of the policies under his administration banks have had to stop discriminating as much in business loans and as such we've seen a rise in minority business ownership as high as 300%. Places under conservative administrations right now are flourishing while places under liberal administration like my own hometown of Portland Oregon are suffering immensely due to the increase in socialistic policies being emplaced.

Trump is something of a dullard i'll give you that, but the democratic left has lost its absolute marbles lately.

You'll find plenty of examples here and on E of Trump associating with and signal-boosting racists. Here's a post of mine way back in mid-2018 discussing Stephen Bannon, the initial reaction to the Charlottesville Rally, among other things such as retweeting white supremacists on social media.

As for your example of minorites and businesses, this isn't always a do X and you're cleared of all racist charges. The good a politician does in his Administration doesn't necessarily negate the bad things he does in over places. And with President Trump, there's a lot of bad things.

[Teo Torriatte]

I am in a bible study group and we have been looking at the first few kings of Israel. Saul was a disaster, David was considered a "model king" even though he had his own issues, and Solomon wasn't all that great either, even though he started off with a whole lot of promise. We are switching topics soon, but the group leader(who is as 'godly' of a man as I have ever met) simply ended the lesson with something along the lines of "and the rest of the kings were pretty much horrible people with very few exceptions."

And yet, we are to believe that every one of those kings were given their position according to God's plan. In fact, everything that happens in the world happened because God either made it happen or allowed it to happen. Yes, even the election of Our Dear Leader. It's hard to swallow sometimes and I find myself hating him as well. I think he is there either to punish this country for slipping too far into commercialism(and perhaps hedonism), or maybe to bring the country together by showing us what real extremism looks like. Although so far we seem to be as divided as ever.

I don't know if this helped since I'm still struggling with the same issues, but that's my take on the matter as an evangelical Christian.

[karkas132]

You'll find plenty of examples here and on E of Trump associating with and signal-boosting racists. Here's a post of mine way back in mid-2018 discussing Stephen Bannon, the initial reaction to the Charlottesville Rally, among other things such as retweeting white supremacists on social media.

As for your example of minorites and businesses, this isn't always a do X and you're cleared of all racist charges. The good a politician does in his Administration doesn't necessarily negate the bad things he does in over places. And with President Trump, there's a lot of bad things.

I'll never say that Trump is a good person, however I will say he is often, and intentionally misrepresented by Media outlets, that is all. The signal boosting racists thing is a good point and deserves to be discussed however one of the huge problems of this day and age is once again identity politics, identity politics on both sides of the aisle have gotten out of hand which is why i've found myself more aligning with the libertarian party, while I dont view taxes as theft and dont agree with unrestricted capitalism they seem to be the only party that values free speech and liberty of any variety any more. Conservatives want to take away some liberties, liberals want to take away other liberties, its a hot mess of bullshit as far as im concerned so Trump is of less concern to me than the polarization of America itself.

However those articles are fair points and I think signal boosting racists is probably a bad move. Trump might be a racist but honestly at this point the word is losing its bite, anyone who disagrees with the radical liberal left is a racist anymore.

[Mathim]

Let me start by saying that I am religious (I'm in a church of the Evangelical Lutheran Church of America, which is pretty liberal, and my church is liberal even by ELCA standards) and I would PREFER that this thread be populated by other people who have religion. Which religion isn't important, but I would really like to talk to people who are men, women, or other of faith about this issue I'm having. This issue is:

I hate Donald Trump. I want him to die.

My faith teaches me that both of those are sins. I don't pray for Donald Trump to die. But I want him to die. And every day I wake up and he's still alive, I'm a little disappointed. Seeing him give a speech, I'm filled with rage, and a seething hatred. I don't like feeling this way. I will NEVER support Donald Trump or his policies or his political party. Politics will never not be important to me, I can't change my major eight years after graduating from my University. (A top political University in the nation. They put the word "Liberal" in Liberal Arts... still too conservative for my tastes.)

So please... I want to stop hating him... I want to stop hoping for him to die. What do you do? How do you do this? CAN you do this?

I consider myself fortunate to have had a lackluster attempt at indoctrinating me as a child so religion and the associated thinking never took root. What I can tell you we have in common is how we feel about Trump and any number of corrupt people in positions of power. But I have a secondary concern that you may not be comfortable with hearing but I feel it may be something to consider that hasn't yet been.

You title this thread 'sin' but it's really a minor component of the larger issue. All sin really does in this scenario is make you convict yourself of Thoughtcrime which is a symptom of religious thinking, the sort of which can be demonstrably shown as a cause for a myriad of societal problems. Even on a moderate scale, it can't be denied that it invites a measure of irrationality, which is largely what people are basing their worship of Trump upon. It takes many different forms, obviously; unquestioning obedience to authority, an us-versus-them mentality and the associated tribalism it engenders, and so forth. Whether or not you yourself have succumbed to any of this is irrelevant because how one adopts the stance that there is a 'there' beyond the here and now is founded on unsupported and faulty assumptions and is by definition irrational. Even if you only open the door to that a teeny bit, you can't say that it will never seep through.

While I am pleased that someone who does not look at the world in the same way that I do because of this religious divide but who nevertheless has an anti-authoritarian philosophy, I do wish you and others with a more liberal/progressive religious mindset would understand how even that sort of fair-weather religiosity gives tacit support to the extremists and fundamentalists. I would ask you an honest question, just how much more liberal/progressive would this world be if for the last 30 years, nobody was able to indoctrinate children? Might it be healthier for people to be able to come to conclusions about things on their own rather than be trained like seals to regurgitate their parents' beliefs, both on an individual level and on a societal scale? And if your answer comes on the side of anti-indoctrination, another question inescapably arises: How exactly is religion going to help if that is the case?

I tend to be a lot more vehemently vociferous when it comes to this sort of thing but I don't want to get banned or make enemies where it's unneeded, so I'll just conclude with this. I'm with the late, great Christopher Hitchens when it comes to this sort of thing: Religion poisons everything. Just reading your own seemingly innocuous description of how it makes you feel about your own thoughts seems to me like a horrible tragedy and indicts religion, making it the last place you should be looking for any kind of solutions to any real problems. I get the impression you and I still will differ a great deal about our stances on numerous political issues based solely on what you believe about sin, the afterlife and your interpretation of your holy book. It saddens me because even where we agree, it will be for completely different reasons, and ones that I will have no ability to see as anything but completely irrational from the side of faith. What will forever keep us from truly uniting is the inclusion of religious thinking. Try stepping outside that a little bit each day and you'll see you don't need it and never did. Things look indescribably different when you're on the outside looking in. Anger isn't toxic when it's just. It's motivating and good for uniting people, though unfortunately it also works for those who are in the wrong. Own it, and understand that it makes you someone who isn't a cowardly doormat or toady for the Trump establishment. But also realize, to someone who doesn't share your faith, your good looks exactly like Trump but on a cosmic scale, and hating Trump but worshiping a galactic Big Brother comes across as massively hypocritical. Try thinking outside the box and see if that makes things clearer.

[JessicaHouse]

Ok, so, based on your statement that you attend a Lutheran church, I would guess that it's a fair assumption that you believe in the Bible, right?

So, based on that, then, consider first that the Bible says we should pray for our leaders. You've done well in not praying that he will die, but perhaps you ought to try praying for God to change his heart and guide his actions. When the Bible says to pray for our leaders and for our enemies, that's not just a call to say, "God, please bless my enemies/leaders." Many traditional prayers regarding such a subject ask God to give these people wisdom, justice, and other such virtues.

I would argue that you don't truly hate all of Trump, just the bad parts (which, understandably, may be the vast majority of what makes Trump Trump). But if you saw him have a tender moment with one of his younger kids (which I'm sure happens) you wouldn't hate him in that moment, especially if you somehow experienced that moment without knowing who he is.

Thus, perhaps, a you could look at it as you are praying for the bad parts of Trump (numerous as they may be) to die while the good parts (few as they may be) thrive and flourish.

Remember that we were all created in God's own image. That means a part of us, however small, is God.

Consider the story of Jonah. Jonah hated the people of Nineveh, and understandably so. But God told him to go and speak to them so that they might repent and God would not destroy them. At the end of the story, Nineveh was "overturned," if you will. The city was not destroyed, but the evil within it was. Perhaps Trump can be like Nineveh to you.