The assassination attempt on Gabrielle Giffords

[Silverfyre]

*tears out hair*

The more attention you give those fuckers, the more they'll do the shit they do. That includes reading/linking/commenting on news stories that give them coverage. If it becomes more trouble than it's worth for news agencies to cover the WBC, then they'll stop doing it.

So stop feeding the fire, please.

I only linked it because I think people need to be aware of just how disgusting these individuals are, not to give them more attention.

[DarklingAlice]

I'm not saying I'm against gun ownership, I'm just saying, when we make a virtue of it, isn't that dangerous?

No. What becomes dangerous is when we make a zealotic fetish over it and as a result fail to only put guns in responsible, trained hands. The fact that you need less training, forethought, and mental faculty to own and operate a gun than you do to own and operate a motor vehicle is disturbing. However, making a virtue of ownership itself doesn't seem to be where the risk lies.

EDIT: Upon reflection I guess what I am saying is that we have made a virtue of the lack of responsibility involved in their ownership rather than the ownership itself.

[Callie Del Noire]

This poll begs to differ:  http://www.gallup.com/poll/114163/Limbaugh-Liked-Not-Republicans.aspx

You're not the typical Republican, so trying to use yourself as a yardstick for your ideology is going to get some inaccurate results.

I'm not saying I'm against gun ownership, I'm just saying, when we make a virtue of it, isn't that dangerous?

Alright, but by the same extent don't assume we're all tools because we're on the other side of the party line please. Most folks might like Rush (and god forgive them, a small portion like Palin and Anne Coulter) but the folks running the party aren't always the 'typical' republican.
<snip>

Took the rest of my rant out of the thread.
</snip>

Back to the subject, I wish the media would give the investigators some space, watched another press conference where they tried to angle into information they don't need to put out in the public purview yet. Did he have help, was there other suspects, ect ect. Sheesh, do the reporters think these questions through or are they hoping for another officer to blow up at them in prime time like the cop in charge of the Beltway sniper case?

Possibly tanget thought to add to the discussion.

If the shooter IS mentally unstable would it be an assassination attempt or simply a very tragic spreed killing/stalking event? 

[Oniya]

Hinckley was adjudicated insane, and they still refer to it as the Reagan assassination attempt.

[Oniya]

I only linked it because I think people need to be aware of just how disgusting these individuals are, not to give them more attention.

That particular description of them is pretty well established.  I'm expecting that the Patriot Riders will once again sally forth.

[Callie Del Noire]

Hinckley was adjudicated insane, and they still refer to it as the Reagan assassination attempt.

Good point, and we know he was trying for the President. I just don't like anything that lets the media sensationalize this you know? It's like a feeding frenzy. Can't use any of the US news channels without them analyzing things ad neausuem.

[Oniya]

I think that calling it a conspiracy, and particularly a 'Tea Party conspiracy' is horrendously premature, since there hasn't been any word yet on the status of the 'other person' that early news reports suggested as being involved.  I'm not particularly fond of the TP, but so far there's been no link made between them and JLL.  He really shares more in common with the lone nutjobs like Charles Whitman than anyone operating as part of a wider reaching plan.

[Will]

I'm a republican, a gun owner and totally tired of having folks throw up Palin as the 'typical Republican'. I'm an admittedly MODERATE republican, with a different view on specific issues from the party platform (Birth Control, Pro-Choice, and a few other points. I'm all for small governement, but I want some regulation of fire arms). Sarah Palin, Rush Limbaugh and their ilk are NOT the typical republican, just the loudest ones.

If they're the loudest ones, I can't understand blaming anyone for thinking they represent the party.

[Callie Del Noire]

If they're the loudest ones, I can't understand blaming anyone for thinking they represent the party.

Well when you're loud and rowdy, the media pays attention to you. I got a lot of democrat friends in the south who feel
ignored because they are rural farmers and average workers. A lot of the discontent I heard at my last school reunion was the democratic supporters I knew in high school felt that they were being ignored and taken for granted while the party chased special interests.

It's not something restricted to one side of the party line.

[Oniya]

Nutters tend to rise to the surface.  There are perfectly reasonable members of just about every group, but many of them stay unnoticed just because they try to avoid being associated with the unreasonable people in their group.  You hear all about the crazy anime fans that are so wrapped up in a given show that their entire lives are devoted to it, but you don't hear about the moderate fans that use their enjoyment of a given show as a springboard to actually learn about a foreign culture, or take up a new language.  It's the same sort of thing here.

[Callie Del Noire]

Nutters tend to rise to the surface.  There are perfectly reasonable members of just about every group, but many of them stay unnoticed just because they try to avoid being associated with the unreasonable people in their group.  You hear all about the crazy anime fans that are so wrapped up in a given show that their entire lives are devoted to it, but you don't hear about the moderate fans that use their enjoyment of a given show as a springboard to actually learn about a foreign culture, or take up a new language.  It's the same sort of thing here.

Well said, wish I was that well spoken (er..written)

[Trieste]

Indeed. How many moderate feminists do you know that readily identify themselves as feminists in mixed company?

[Silverfyre]

Well when you're loud and rowdy, the media pays attention to you. I got a lot of democrat friends in the south who feel
ignored because they are rural farmers and average workers. A lot of the discontent I heard at my last school reunion was the democratic supporters I knew in high school felt that they were being ignored and taken for granted while the party chased special interests.

It's not something restricted to one side of the party line.

Agreed.  Honestly, this is why I am a moderate.  Both parties have their nut jobs and outspoken idiots.  Both parties have their redeeming policies and members.  At the end of the day, this really boils down to too much anger and insanity that unfortunately cost several people their lives, including a 9 year old girl, and caused a great deal of pain and suffering.  I can only hope that some questions get answered and things get looked at.

[Jude]

A study was done a few years back on experts and the predictions they made, particularly those in the political and economic realms.  For the purposes of the study a wide variety of experts were analyzed not just for the accuracy of their predictions but the tone of the expert.  They did a rigorous statistical analysis and found the following trends:

- The more confident experts were, the worst their predictive insights were.
- The best experts took their ability to make predictions with a grain of salt.
- Very few experts actually averaged at better than making a prediction of constancy (no change).  Most did worse.
- Experts featured prominently in the media tended to be those who were most confident, and by extrapolation, least accurate.

(source:  Expert Political Judgment: How Good Is It? How Can We Know?, published in 2005 after a 20 year study with 284 experts, and 82.361 predictions.)

[Callie Del Noire]

Agreed.  Honestly, this is why I am a moderate.  Both parties have their nut jobs and outspoken idiots.  Both parties have their redeeming policies and members.  At the end of the day, this really boils down to too much anger and insanity that unfortunately cost several people their lives, including a 9 year old girl, and caused a great deal of pain and suffering.  I can only hope that some questions get answered and things get looked at.

Same here, I just hope the media gives the authorities the space they need to operate. We've already had one 'mis-cast' because they were crowding for that nugget of information that they could trump their commercial rivals on. The announcement that Congresswoman Giffords' death while she was in surgery won't be the last bogus call if they keep crowding folks. And I am really concerned this 'feeding frenzy' of the media might seriously screw up the investigation.

[Will]

Well when you're loud and rowdy, the media pays attention to you. I got a lot of democrat friends in the south who feel
ignored because they are rural farmers and average workers. A lot of the discontent I heard at my last school reunion was the democratic supporters I knew in high school felt that they were being ignored and taken for granted while the party chased special interests.

It's not something restricted to one side of the party line.

Exactly.  The party is chasing special interests.  Therefore, the party (either party) must be controlled and represented by the people parroting those special interests, no?  How can anyone think the party is represented by people that have no voice in it?

[Sandman02]

I liked Callie's honest hope for a new time of compromise and reconciliation to begin, regardless of how gradual the process may be, We've seen that recently, with compromises on policies that left a bad taste in either party's mouth.

I think the thing that makes me most guarded in my optimism for this, though, is the fact that there are so many junior congressman of the Tea Party in office, who seem to have been elected on a platform of no compromise of any kind. I'm of the opinion that the tea partiers will not be pleasantly surprising us any time soon - of course, I don't speak with much authority on the topic. What do you guys think?

[Star Safyre]

I honestly think this has more to do with the state of mental health care in this country than (perceived or media inflated) political differences.  These are the actions of one very disturbed, incoherent individual.  The political views he espoused and ultimately murdered for are nonsensical, illogical, and very much grounded in his mental illness.  If proper treatment, up to and including commitment, had been a viable and easily accessible option, I believe this would have been averted.

[Silverfyre]

I honestly think this has more to do with the state of mental health care in this country than (perceived or media inflated) political differences.  These are the actions of one very disturbed, incoherent individual.  The political views he espoused and ultimately murdered for are nonsensical, illogical, and very much grounded in his mental illness.  If proper treatment, up to and including commitment, had been a viable and easily accessible option, I believe this would have been averted.

Yes and no.  The shooter in question is obviously mentally ill but his paranoia was probably fueled by the way the media and the two parties in the U.S. put forth their rather hateful agendas and messages.  Look at the last wave of political ads.  There was nothing positive at all in those, but rather vicious, provocative verbal attacks upon the other candidate's party and person.  I think both are to be blamed here, not just the state of mental health in the United States.

[Will]

It wasn't stated with certainty that he acted alone, either.

[Oniya]

I think that both political vitriol and the mental illness played a part in this, but I think that the critical cause - the 'but for' factor without which the crime wouldn't have occurred - is the mental illness.  I look at it this way: with no mental illness, a potential assassin is going to consider the possible consequences of their actions.  He or she may decide that it's 'worth it', but there is going to be a period of premeditation.  Also, a premeditated assassination is more likely to go for the target, and once the target is dropped, the assassin would consider the mission 'accomplished', instead of continuing to shoot.

With a mental illness in the mix, that premeditation may not occur at all, or may be distorted beyond any rationalizing.  Hinckley tried to kill Reagan because he thought it would make Jodie Foster fall in love with him.  JLL's motives could have been influenced by the political vitriol or by his own personal demons.  The vitriol didn't help matters, but I can't see it as the root cause.

[Zeitgeist]

http://www.cnn.com/2011/OPINION/01/09/gergen.pointing.fingers/index.html?hpt=C1

I agree with most of what David Gergen says in this linked article. Nevertheless, the first paragraph strikes me as nonsensical.

Until we have more definitive information about the shooter, pointing fingers at who might bear responsibility for the Tucson, Arizona, massacre only contributes to what we must end in America: a toxic political environment.

There is no question who bears responsibility for the massacre. It's the perpetrator himself. No one else. Period. It's not Sarah Palin's fault, nor Glenn Beck, or Rush Limbaugh or any other person. Just like the people who flew the planes into the Twin Towers, and the Pentagon. It's no one else fault but the person or people who committed the crime. I don't for a minute buy into this baloney that so-called pundits who offer an opposing view some how inspire those unbalanced, and by that extension are somehow culpable. Think for just a nanosecond what that line of thinking will lead us to.

I am responsible for my own actions. No one else.

[DarklingAlice]

It wasn't stated with certainty that he acted alone, either.

However without evidence that is baseless and useless speculation. Let's wait and see if the investigations turn up something.

I am responsible for my own actions. No one else.

And this is very clear cut...as long as you aren't mentally ill. Laying blame at that point becomes much trickier and is largely dependent on the nature of the mental illness.

[Oniya]

However without evidence that is baseless and useless speculation. Let's wait and see if the investigations turn up something.

Apparently the 'person of interest' was nothing more than the driver of the taxi that he took to the event.  When they got there, JLL didn't have the right change, so the two of them went into the Safeway to get change, and then they parted ways.  There is still investigation going on into two groups called the American Renaissance, and the New Century Foundation, but so far it seems to be 'the way he talks sounds like these groups', rather than anything concrete.

[itsbeenfun2000]

Let's just hope people will step back and think before they say anything about their political opponents. Not saying that had anything to do with it but at least it can't be suspected.