China's first aircraft carrier

[Callie Del Noire]

I think something like 'pseudocrat' would flow better.  But anyways.

My point was more that I trust China as a 'partner in global peacekeeping' about as far as I could shot-put Idaho.  Russia has had a sizable navy in the past, and it looks like they've given up the 'World Domination (TM)' schtick for the present, and as I said, Britain has had experience with a world-wide naval presence.

I agree with the assessment about China (except I'd be more likely to shot put the entire west coast) but the thing is.. Russia is broke and the Brits has just recently downsized fairly hard. To the point they are no longer in the 'We have a carrier in our navy' club. Truthfully we need to resize the navy a bit.. because the first and foremost role of it we're failing.

Projecting power, and securing the sea lanes for commercial traffic. Right now..we can't do it.

Hence problems like Somolia.

Me, I am waiting for someone to start jacking boats in places like the Straits off the coast of Singapore.

[Bayushi]

To the point they are no longer in the 'We have a carrier in our navy' club.

What happened to the Illustrious and Ark Royal?
:o

[Callie Del Noire]

What happened to the Illustrious and Ark Royal?
:o

Illustrious is being decommissioned.. (sorry the articles I read hinted that it ALREADY had been), and scrapped by 2014.

Ark Royal is laid up I think...

and the Invincible, the 3rd carrier of theirs that I've seen personally, has been retired.

[gaggedLouise]

Russia is broke

Erm, where do you get your economy news? Things have changed a great deal since the nineties. These days, in the area of mining and energy, everyone wants to do business in Russia and as a state she's in a strong bargaining position.

Do I have to point out that this is not about arguing that Russia is an all-healthy democracy (hey, is the U.S. a perfectly healthy democracy at present?) that we'd be completely comfortable with? I am not denying Russia has an unplesant dark underbelly, but it's got plenty of cash, raw assets (steel, oil, technical know-how) and a good naval and military tradition. She is probably in a better position to expand her military arm, and do it in the fast lane, than for instance Britain, Germany, Poland or Canada.

Again I don't think the Russian leadership is simply some sort of mafia rule. There's a good deal of backroom dealing but that doesn't make them a republic of thieves.

I'd agree with Oniya that if the choice is between a militarily strong China and a similar Russia, then Russia is better. We're not going to see a return to the bipolar order with just two superpowers, and with both Russia and China on the rise Russia is not gonna be able to go for an agenda of world domination. Russia seems more reliable, and even if much of its city people are now apathetic to democracy, seen as something you're making your own and taking part in, Russia is a much less rigid state than China.

[Callie Del Noire]

I think that Russia is still dangerous, unstable and ruled in a good part by thugs and opportunists. Fun note, since 1993, over 160 Russian journalists have been murdered with another 200 being tagged as accidents/terrorism.   Most of these men and women were investigating government and/or crime. In the rare few instances where someone WAS tried for murder, it took between one and two years to find them.

Yes, Russia is doing better but it far from a stable state that I would trust 'saving' other states.

[Asuras]

We're not going to see a return to the bipolar order with just two superpowers, and with both Russia and China on the rise Russia is not gonna be able to go for an agenda of world domination. Russia seems more reliable, and even if much of its city people are now apathetic to democracy, seen as something you're making your own and taking part in, Russia is a much less rigid state than China.

Russian foreign policy has seemed a bit knee-jerk and smolderingly anti-Western for a long time...it was only three years ago that they invaded Georgia over that Ossetia nonsense.

I'm not thrilled about China either but they seem more circumspect and I don't see Nazbols and Putin youth leagues running around in the fringe. Russia scares me more than China does on a political level.

But I think more importantly, the Chinese get it. They do business with us. We do business with them. We do business together in the same countries - we do business side by side in Indonesia or Africa or South America and we don't have to overthrow governments just because we're afraid the other guy will take over the country. In the Cold War that was the problem, we couldn't do business with each other. We work together in markets and appreciate that it's not a zero sum game where it's either the Chinese get the oil or the Americans get the oil.

Markets honestly make this polarity thing obsolete...it's when people don't see that that dangerous things happen.

[Callie Del Noire]

Russian foreign policy has seemed a bit knee-jerk and smolderingly anti-Western for a long time...it was only three years ago that they invaded Georgia over that Ossetia nonsense.

I'm not thrilled about China either but they seem more circumspect and I don't see Nazbols and Putin youth leagues running around in the fringe. Russia scares me more than China does on a political level.

Simply put.. anyone tried to shake the structure in China like those guys do.. they'd get shot. And their families billed for the ammo.