D&D Next is released today!

[RubySlippers]

Not the main reason why should I spend $90 for another set of rules when I can get another version of DnD say 2nd Edition for sale for a third of that for the core three books if I wanted and that is also DnD. I can get older editions as well 1st Edition, the Cyclopedia (where a race was a class) and also for good prices especially if more damaged conditions are fine.

In addition to other games Palladium Fantasy, Quest of the Ancients and other small press releases all as good and far less expensive to get.

[Chris Brady]

Not the main reason why should I spend $90 for another set of rules when I can get another version of DnD say 2nd Edition for sale for a third of that for the core three books if I wanted and that is also DnD. I can get older editions as well 1st Edition, the Cyclopedia (where a race was a class) and also for good prices especially if more damaged conditions are fine.

In addition to other games Palladium Fantasy, Quest of the Ancients and other small press releases all as good and far less expensive to get.

Palladium isn't small press...  Either way, 'all as good' is debatable, really.  Palladium Fantasy 1e (which I miss) was personally the best out of the game series...  Either way, that's just opinion.  All are as 'good' is also opinion.

In the end, if you do or don't want to get the PDF of the basic rules, it's your reason.  But don't worry about giving WoTC your money, because you won't be helping them in any way.

[Dhi]

The most essential reason that they publish new editions and new books is that they are a business and this is how they make a living. You can choose to play something like 2E, but it's going to be harder to find a group for that. When you buy into Next (which is now $150, the price on core books has gone up), you're buying into a shared experience, a hobby. It is an expensive hobby both in terms of time and money.

It's like investing in a motorcycle. If you buy a Harley and keep up with it, you are a part of the Harley community, and motorcycling is probably a satisfying part of your life. If you buy an electric scooter, you don't get that community. You get a practical device for moving around and any community you can find is going to be far smaller and less aware of motorcycles. The two experiences are entirely different.

You're right that just as much fun can be had with earlier editions or other games, no matter what the hype says or what fans bash. My group plays the most reviled edition in the history of D&D and we have a blast with it. It's hard to find players now, though, and that thrill of new support is gone, and I cannot go into any D&D thread without players vomiting unprompted diatribe about how much they hate it. That is the tradeoff.

[ShadowFox89]

 Ladies, gentleman, and those who identify as neither! I have, by way of bribery blackmail and backstabbing (not really, just wanted the alliteration), acquired the 5th edition player's handbook. I will take any questions you may have.

[Avis habilis]

Can dwarven wizards still throw axes?

[ShadowFox89]

 They can. And a mountain dwarf wizard can wear a breastplate. Its odd, sure, but dwarves have to make up for being as agile as a rock somehow.

[Avis habilis]

Booyah!

[Dhi]

I've been wondering how many backgrounds are provided, and if you have the final playtest document, whether any big changes from final draft to finished product jump out at you.

Are there iconics?

[ShadowFox89]

 I don't have the final play test, there's 13 backgrounds, and iconics are simply the Salvatore characters.

[Chris Brady]

I don't have the final play test, there's 13 backgrounds, and iconics are simply the Salvatore characters.

If you're talking about the minis they packaged, you can be forgiven for thinking that.  But actually, they're based off the Salvatore iconics.  The Dwarf model is a resculpt of Bruneor Battlehammer but his axe was replaced with a hammer, and he's been renamed as a Dwarven Cleric.  The Archer is actually a unmodded Catti-Brie, but simply called Human Archer.  The Alustriel Silverhand model was just renamed to Elven Wizard.  Wulfgar's hammer was reshaped into an axe, and he simply ended up being renamed Northlands Fighter.  Regis is now a Halfling Rogue.  But the Ranger model IS The Drizzle, AKA Drizzt Do'Urden, Emo Marty-Stue Poster Boy extraordinaire.

Inside the book, as I'm flipping through it, they're using various sources of their own novels, some of them Dragonlance and Forgotten Realms books, a few examples are both from the Drizzle's various characters but they also use Dragonlance as a counterpoint (Namely the personality section, they use Artemis Entiri and Tika Waylan.  Arty is, of course, famous for being The Drizzle's arch-nemesis, while Tika was a barmaid that originally was a filler character inside the original Dragonlance trilogy.)

[Dhi]

The link Skynet provided has been updated. The PHB had a few things added to it, and there's now a DM book with a whole bunch of monsters and some magic items.

[LostInTheMist]

I played the game over the past weekend at my friend's house. We created characters (with the new rules, took a couple of hours) then started in on the adventure "Hoard of the Dragon Queen", spending about four or five hours in total on the adventure over the space of two days.

I quite like the ruleset. Though I think it is still inferior to first edition, I believe it to be superior to third edition (or 3.5) in most respects. In my opinion, it is superior to 4th edition in ALL respects. It still keeps in Dragonborn and similar races, which pisses me off to no end. Gary Gygax would never have signed off on that.

Regardless, the game is good, and it encourages roleplaying over powergaming. I had a lot of fun being creative with my Ranger character. (Cutting counterweights, rising up through a hole in the floor and nailing an opponent at point-blank range with his bow before cutting the rope keeping him up and dropping through the hole in the floor before his opponents could attack him.)

We only got our characters to level 2, and it was only an introduction to the game itself, but I think it was a good one. I'm impressed so far. It's not the game Gary Gygax would have wanted, but this comes closer than anything since 2nd edition.

[ShadowFox89]

It still keeps in Dragonborn and similar races, which pisses me off to no end. Gary Gygax would never have signed off on that.

Nor would he have signed off on:

Feats
Non-humans getting to play the same selection of base classes as humans
Female characters having the same stats as male characters
Monks being anything but a joke
etc

This is more than just Gygax's game, it has been for decades.

[LostInTheMist]

Totally agree.

This is why I run 1st edition with only those modifications that Gary Gygax told me PERSONALLY were okay with him.

1d10 inititiative, -10% of maximum HP=death, and a few other modifications.

[Skynet]

Totally agree.

This is why I run 1st edition with only those modifications that Gary Gygax told me PERSONALLY were okay with him.

1d10 inititiative, -10% of maximum HP=death, and a few other modifications.

You know that Gygax changed his mind on D&D over the 40 or so years?

I have to ask in all seriousness, but it seems like you're trying to act like a caricature of OSR gamers.  If it works for you, go for it, but almost nobody I know adheres to another game designer's house rules like they were holy writ.

Even the biggest Gygax fans of the OSR have no problem folding, spinning, and mutilating the game mechanics to suit their own group.

[LostInTheMist]

You know that Gygax changed his mind on D&D over the 40 or so years?

I have to ask in all seriousness, but it seems like you're trying to act like a caricature of OSR gamers.  If it works for you, go for it, but almost nobody I know adheres to another game designer's house rules like they were holy writ.

Even the biggest Gygax fans of the OSR have no problem folding, spinning, and mutilating the game mechanics to suit their own group.

Did you ever ask Gygax PERSONALLY about his opinions of the rules after 2nd edition? Because I did. he thought they were an abomination. A mutilation of the game HE created. He despised 3rd edtiion with a passion that any modern day player can only imitate as a pale reflection of his true and pure passion.

Gary Gygax created Dungeons and Dragons. Gary Gygax despised 3rd Edition.

It's not really a stretch to figure that 1st edition (or 2nd edition if you inisist) are the TRUE editions. Anything after that is blasphemy at best, heresy at worst.

Even given that, 5th edition is the best since 2nd edition. It is still inferior to 1st Edition, but you can't improve on perfection.

[ShadowFox89]

 Gygax was one man. One man who had a limited vision for the perfect game. Does 5e have some of what he envisioned? Yes. Is it perfect? Hell no. Its all in all a bland system that really has nothing to add to the game market. But its still something that people will play.

[LostInTheMist]

Gygax was one man. One man who had a limited vision for the perfect game. Does 5e have some of what he envisioned? Yes. Is it perfect? Hell no. Its all in all a bland system that really has nothing to add to the game market. But its still something that people will play.

Must not blaspheme.

Yes, Gary Gygax was one man. But he was one man with a vision. He was Bigby, he was Mordenkainen. He was Rigby and Zigby, not known to modern players.

He was one man. But he was one man with a vision. And his vision was NOT 3E, nor 3.5E, nor 4E, nor 5E, nor "Next", if that's what you must call it.

If he had retained control of the company, who knows what 3E would look like. But alas, because of the ambush at Sheridan Springs, we will never know.

[Dhi]

Please don't edition bash, it is so unbecoming of any D&D player.

I consider myself more of a Robin Laws DM than a Gygax one, so his influence on me was not great. I didn't think much of him as a person, either, until we posted on EN World together and I got to see how the years had mellowed him. By that time he was working in d20 with Necromancer Games and Mongoose Publishing. Clark Peterson was bridging differences impressively back then, and I suppose in the end all it took to change Gygax's mind about 3rd Edition was to realize that the people working on it were kind people, passionate people, real people with a real love for the game that oughtn't be defined by the math involved in their system of choice.

If only this were the lesson everyone took away from Gygax's life.

[ShadowFox89]

Must not blaspheme.

Yes, Gary Gygax was one man. But he was one man with a vision. He was Bigby, he was Mordenkainen. He was Rigby and Zigby, not known to modern players.

He was one man. But he was one man with a vision. And his vision was NOT 3E, nor 3.5E, nor 4E, nor 5E, nor "Next", if that's what you must call it.

If he had retained control of the company, who knows what 3E would look like. But alas, because of the ambush at Sheridan Springs, we will never know.

His 'vision' was one path. And don't treat it like a religion, its not. Its a hobby. One that has many different ideas of how it can be good.

And I agree Dhi..... Don't look at the work of one, when so many have put so much into a hobby we all enjoy.

Also, Jim Ward is an awesome guy. Just putting it out there.

[LostInTheMist]

His 'vision' was one path. And don't treat it like a religion, its not. Its a hobby. One that has many different ideas of how it can be good.

And I agree Dhi..... Don't look at the work of one, when so many have put so much into a hobby we all enjoy.

Also, Jim Ward is an awesome guy. Just putting it out there.

I should mention that by "Must Not Blaspheme", I meant that I should RESIST the urge to compare Gary Gygax to a certain religious figure who has been a major fixture in my life. We'll not get into that.

Now I don't know that Gary ever accepted third edition, and I know he wouldn't have liked 4th editon. I do know that in the waning years of his life he worked on a d20 game that was designed and based significantly on Dungeons and Dragons, First Edition, the correct edition. I do not believe that I am "edition bashing" by saying that I have always held that he got it right the first time, and that first edition is the best edition of the game. Nor do I believe I am edition bashing by saying that I believe Gary Gygax was not a fan of 3rd edition, nor by stating that I don't believe he was a fan/would have been a fan of 4th edition. I doubt he would have been a fan of 5th edition either, but I like 5th edition more than I like the most recent editions.

I had the opportunity to receive Gary Gygax's rulings on some... unusual... situations that came up in a First Edition game of mine on a message board some years ago. He dealt with my situation easily and uniformly in line with the First Edition Advanced Dungeons and Dragons game rules. His signature on the site included a quote that stated that 3rd Editon "lacked something" and that that something was "The Dungeons and Dragons roleplaying game". How much that represented his view at the end of his life is a question that may never be resolved. But I can only consider his viewpoint in light of what I knew of him, and what I knew FROM him, and from what I saw of him, he never considered 3rd Edition an actual evolution of his vision.

That's all I'm saying.

[Zekromnomnom]

To Chris Brady and Calie, I agree about what they did to the Realms. Most of the people I play with now cut their teeth on 4E and I tried to explain to them the whole time why I didn't like 4E. Honestly, it was the shitshow that WotC made of the Realms more than anything. A hundred year time jump so the only people that are still around are Drizz't and the chosen? That was the first straw. And I think the part she was talking about about Thay exploding and all the bad stuff happening in the Realms is more that like...the change got rid of the idea that the Realms were a relatively safe, well connected place, I guess? Because in the 4E books and especially the novels, it kind of makes it seem like everything has gone to shit and like...Mithral Hall and a few other places are kind of the only places left. Waterdeep went to Pirates, Sembia went to the Shadovar, Szass Tam started a civil war in Thay for control of it.

While I agree that the "Points of Light" idea is kind of always what D&D is about, I felt like it was just less...dismal before the Spellplague. There were evils, but there were also lots of heroes around to help. And now we're stuck with only Drizz't and Mystra's Chosen, and Mystra died until they decide to bring her back again. And those novels? Honestly? It's not that I don't think they can save the world, it's just that it's probably gonna bore me trying to read about it.

ANYWAY, THE PART ABOUT NEXT:

I read through it a little bit and I mean...I like the idea of changing how the races work a bit and the Advantage/Disadvantage system is okay I suppose, but having played two of the early playtest packets, there was something they had considered for the fighter that didn't make it into the completed game I don't think and that really kind of bummed me out. I like what they're going for and everything, I just...don't really see enough of a difference to warrant the effort they went through, you know? Not yet, anyway. In face in the second playtest packet I read through, I saw a lot of stuff I really liked and I don't know how much of it was kept, but I have a feeling not as much as I would have liked.

Anyway, just my two cents. Always a pleasure to discuss these things with you guys, even though I'm always absent for months on end.

[Chris Brady]

Zekro, I think you mistaken my point.

I was saying that although the 4e execution was a little drastic, the fact of the matter is, most of the Realms heroes were not the PC's.  They were in the novels, written by the authors (who had been in Realms' lore since the TSR days) and that their characters already did everything of note and important.  Worse, Elminster and his 'crew' had more or less cleaned out anything worth exploring, often decades before the 2e version of the realms came around.  And with a single statement of his creator, Ed Greenwood, more or less turned the Realms into a theme park, literally.

The Realms needed a shake up.  It needed to have Elminster and the Seven Sisters and any other of the Chosen removed from being movers and shakers.  That's what the players of the game are for.  The Novels had to stop being Canon, because SOME PEOPLE (myself included) are simply not that smart, we can't look past the box, because we don't have any information as to how.  So they jumped the timeline a head some hundred years.  Unfortunately, keeping two of the more (personally) egregious characters.

I do not like Elminster, nor Drizzt Do'Urden (The latter namely because I'm a writer.)

[Zekromnomnom]

Oh, yeah, okay. Sorry, my bad. I understand what you mean now. Yeah, I actually was having a conversation with some friends of mine the other day and was explaining the basic way most of Ed Greenwood's novels play out. But yeah, I see your point and it's a good one.

I cut my teeth learning about the Realms in Drizzt novels and then kind of started to see exactly what you were talking about. Then through a lot of picking through and nearly giving up hope, I managed to find some novels that I really dug that weren't about those guys and for a time, all was good. Then while gearing up for 4E and then with 4E, WotC kind of left a few of the writers I was really getting to like a bit high and dry. Which is where my beef comes from. And as you said, the Realms needed a shake up. For me, I just started getting into Eberron when FR was starting to become a little stale, but 4E supported Eberron basically as an afterthought.

But you didn't really ask about that. Sorry, I'm rambling. Anyway, you have clarified your point and I understand and agree.

Also, if you're ever in a talkative mood, I would love to pick your brain about writing and gaming via PM, but this isn't really the place for that.

Not to derail the thread completely...BACK TO D&D NEXT.

My question is this: In the actual books, assuming someone here has bought them or it if it's just the new Player's Guide out, how is the artwork? I was unreasonably grumpy about the 4E artwork and am trying to go into this one a little more relaxed.

[ShadowFox89]

Then artwork is..... Nothing really stellar, but not bad either. Like the whole thing, it just seems kinda meh.