Last Jedi is bad *Spoilers*

[Evil Tim]

Just so many things happened in the movie that I could not forgive or look past. 

For one, why couldn't the Star Destroyers keep up with the Resistance ships?  Star Destroyers are really fast, despite their size.  And, if they can't keep up with the Resistance ship, why not have other Star Destroyers come out of lightspeed in front of them and block their route?

Why couldn't the Admiral tell them where they were going?  What was so secret about that planet that she couldn't just say "Oh yeah, we have an abandoned base on a planet that we can reactivate and hide out until help arrives."  She kept talking about hope, well you know what would have given the crew hope?  Knowing they had a place they could still go and a possible plan of action.

What was so evil about the hole in the ground?  Luke says it's a place of great evil to go along with the great good, but all that's down there is that weird mirror wall.  So what exactly is the evil?

If Finn knew the Star Destroyers were capable of tracking them through hyperspace, why didn't he warn them of that originally?  He clearly knew they had the capability because he was able to lead the mechanic girl and Benecio Del Toro right to it.  And on that subject, HOW were they able to track the ships through hyperspace?  There wasn't a relay on the ship.  They weren't using some kind of Force connection between Kylo and Leia.  They just... were able to.  I guess that tracker ran on plotonium.

What was the point of having Captain Phasma return?  She was a completely pointless character and she got killed off again almost as soon as she came back.  And Benecio Del Toro, what was his point?  He was supposed to be some kind of big hacker but nothing he did seemed really to fit a master hacker character.

The whole relationship between Finn and the mechanic girl was so Disney it was painful, the worst of which being her line about "protecting and fighting the things we love."

Taking Snoke out the way they did, are you serious?  Way to waste a character that actually was pretty interesting.

And the worst offender of all, Leia going space swimming.  I don't care what the Force says, it can't protect you from being spaced for five minutes.

[RubySlippers]

My take on this half the fans are hardcore fans who loved Star Wars and watched the TV animated series maybe and read some of the books and other media and are picky about what is wrong with everything not 'Canon' or 'Legends'.

Then there is the ordinary fan they liked the movies, maybe even Jar Jar Binks (go Jar Jar  ;D ), and buy a bucket of popcorn with butter and just watch the movies as fun sci-fi movies and enjoy the fun which is what I am and my dad.

That explains the Rotten Tomatoes viewer rating of 53% last time I looked this simple split.

[mia h]

You know it's possible to be a hardcore fan and still enjoy the movie. Although anyone who likes Jar Jar isn't ordinary or even normal for that matter  :P

[WindFish]

As a long time fan who saw A New Hope when it came out multiple times in the theatre at the age of 8, I've loved Star Wars my entire life, and I loved the Last Jedi, as did my kids, who range in age from 21 to 11. Empire is my favorite of them all. It is time to move the series to a different style, and evolve, and they are doing it. I personally thought it was a great movie, and I look forward to Episode 9.

Part of the problem with Star Wars, is that everyone has an idea of what they think should be in the movies and how the story should evolve, and has their own hopes and expectations. Film makers will never meet those. In my own close circle of friends, each and every one of them had different expectations for this movie, each one of them had an idea of what they thought the plot should be. None of them expected any of this, and I think it's way past time we start to get Star Wars movies that don't follow a safe formula.

That's just my opinion though, it's no better or worse than anyone else's opinion.

This. Right here. I wish there was a way we could like posts on E.

Franchises are meant to evolve, especially one as old as Star Wars. I think at some point some fans need to accept this and realize that the filmmakers aren't going to cater to their every expectation, and we'd all be happier. Just because a film doesn't live up to your expectations doesn't mean it's bad.

I for one am glad that this movie was willing to take risks and break from established patterns.

[Arkaniel]

This. Right here. I wish there was a way we could like posts on E.

Franchises are meant to evolve, especially one as old as Star Wars. I think at some point some fans need to accept this and realize that the filmmakers aren't going to cater to their every expectation, and we'd all be happier. Just because a film doesn't live up to your expectations doesn't mean it's bad.

I for one am glad that this movie was willing to take risks and break from established patterns.

+1000

[Inkidu]

All I know is I got the original trilogy (well VHS remasters of the original trilogies) and loved it. Saw the prequels starting at Phantom Menace at ten and loved them (especially Attack of the Clones). Trust me when I say, Jar-Jar is not that bad when you're a ten-year-old, it's actually really funny.

I saw The Force Awakens and after Rey's third skill of impossible destiny I never wanted to be out of a theater so bad in my life and I sat through Cloverfield (which should probably be a ding on JJ Abrams... eh... "talent". The writing was boring and stilted, and the great glimmers of the six movies of the past were there, but it just felt like it was a movie made to tick boxes. Say what you want about the prequels but at least they were the (honestly flawed) vision of a director, not a film assembled by marketing committee, and that's saying something when you know how much Lucas loved his merch rights.

Now I get that the Hero's Journey is a really an arch-narrative that involves checking off boxes, but it doesn't exactly have to be super obvious, and like I said earlier they didn't even do that right, quashing any hopes I had that a sequel could build off such poorly laid foundations (no I haven't seen the Last Jedi, and I'm probably not going to).

So here's my take on everything I've seen. I went back some years ago and watched all six movies in the original order to prepare for The Force Awakens, and thinking about it as critically as possible the original trilogy is not sci-fi writing magic, and the prequels aren't a total garbage fire. They're actually on par with each other more than most people are probably willing to admit. Even TFA isn't that far off the mark (Again it just feels like it was designed by Disney's Marketing Department and directed by one of the most oversold, pretentious directors of our generation. You know what's in the freaking box, JJ? It's a bunch of magic-shop shovelware, that's what's in the box!)

The short of it:

-Star Wars has more to do with the age of first exposure than any amount of writing/directing genius.
-It's an important milestone in science fiction. There have been talented writers/directors but the films are not some unreachable ideal.
-Nothing is ever as good as you remember it being.
-JJ Abrams sucks. Just genuinely sucks, guys, but he makes bank.
-The worst part of Star Wars is its fans. (I loved Phantom Menace, but what Star Wars fans did to the kid who played kid Anakin is just loathsome and appalling.)

[Arkaniel]

All I know is I got the original trilogy (well VHS remasters of the original trilogies) and loved it. Saw the prequels starting at Phantom Menace at ten and loved them (especially Attack of the Clones). Trust me when I say, Jar-Jar is not that bad when you're a ten-year-old, it's actually really funny.

I saw The Force Awakens and after Rey's third skill of impossible destiny I never wanted to be out of a theater so bad in my life and I sat through Cloverfield (which should probably be a ding on JJ Abrams... eh... "talent". The writing was boring and stilted, and the great glimmers of the six movies of the past were there, but it just felt like it was a movie made to tick boxes. Say what you want about the prequels but at least they were the (honestly flawed) vision of a director, not a film assembled by marketing committee, and that's saying something when you know how much Lucas loved his merch rights.

Now I get that the Hero's Journey is a really an arch-narrative that involves checking off boxes, but it doesn't exactly have to be super obvious, and like I said earlier they didn't even do that right, quashing any hopes I had that a sequel could build off such poorly laid foundations (no I haven't seen the Last Jedi, and I'm probably not going to).

So here's my take on everything I've seen. I went back some years ago and watched all six movies in the original order to prepare for The Force Awakens, and thinking about it as critically as possible the original trilogy is not sci-fi writing magic, and the prequels aren't a total garbage fire. They're actually on par with each other more than most people are probably willing to admit. Even TFA isn't that far off the mark (Again it just feels like it was designed by Disney's Marketing Department and directed by one of the most oversold, pretentious directors of our generation. You know what's in the freaking box, JJ? It's a bunch of magic-shop shovelware, that's what's in the box!)

The short of it:

-Star Wars has more to do with the age of first exposure than any amount of writing/directing genius.
-It's an important milestone in science fiction. There have been talented writers/directors but the films are not some unreachable ideal.
-Nothing is ever as good as you remember it being.
-JJ Abrams sucks. Just genuinely sucks, guys, but he makes bank.
-The worst part of Star Wars is its fans. (I loved Phantom Menace, but what Star Wars fans did to the kid who played kid Anakin is just loathsome and appalling.)

Freedom of speech and opinion are a thing :)

I don’t mind anyone not liking the new Star Wars movie. Everyone has different tastes. I do not entirely like people judging a movie without having seen said movie themselves.

And you make plenty of very good points, Inkidu. I feel the same about Phantom Menace. It’s my least favourite movie of the eight, but it’s not a bad movie. When it first came out, I actually thought Jar Jar a bit funny. If I watch it now, I find him a bit annoying, but not enough to bash or hate the movie.

[mia h]

When it first came out, I actually thought Jar Jar a bit funny. If I watch it now, I find him a bit annoying, but not enough to bash or hate the movie.

https://youtu.be/8yy3q9f84EA

[wander]

I'm finding it weird people who like the movie aren't giving too many particular reasons based on the film why they liked it. I don't really think 'the series is evolving and we need to accept that' is a legitimate argument for stating enjoyment of a media, to me (and YMMV) that sounds more like defending it from fallout or 'giving it an excuse'.

Basically, I can see here and in the other thread that people clearly loved the film, though I'm not seeing too many reasons why, was it the characters, the plot, the visuals, the pacing? I'm mostly seeing 'I loved it and sure it had flaws though I still enjoyed myself' and yet it seems to be from reading between the lines that people are enjoying it mainly as it ticks boxes for a different target audience from them enjoyed it.

Now my thing to ponder now is; if the actual people interested in watching liked it because it appealed to a different target audience that was not them (and by 'them' I lump in 'Prior Star Wars fans and scifi film fans'), there seems to have been a misstep.

[Arkaniel]

I'm finding it weird people who like the movie aren't giving too many particular reasons based on the film why they liked it. I don't really think 'the series is evolving and we need to accept that' is a legitimate argument for stating enjoyment of a media, to me (and YMMV) that sounds more like defending it from fallout or 'giving it an excuse'.

Basically, I can see here and in the other thread that people clearly loved the film, though I'm not seeing too many reasons why, was it the characters, the plot, the visuals, the pacing? I'm mostly seeing 'I loved it and sure it had flaws though I still enjoyed myself' and yet it seems to be from reading between the lines that people are enjoying it mainly as it ticks boxes for a different target audience from them enjoyed it.

Now my thing to ponder now is; if the actual people interested in watching liked it because it appealed to a different target audience that was not them (and by 'them' I lump in 'Prior Star Wars fans and scifi film fans'), there seems to have been a misstep.

I liked it because Luke Kay walker was both human and badass all at once, the fight sequences were amazing, most of the new characters came to life in a way they didn’t entirely manage in the previous movie. There was plenty of humour, but not too much, visuals were breathtaking without going over the top and the plot worked for me.

The only possible downside in my opinion, was the fact that there was just so much happening that people not entirely familiar with Star Wars would have had a hard time following all of it.

When people say I loved it, they usually say it because there wasn’t anything not to love. It’s a rather all encompassing. What you’re asking, wander, is asking people to try and ex0lain why they love chocolate.

[TheSithChicken]

When people say I loved it, they usually say it because there wasn’t anything not to love. It’s a rather all encompassing. What you’re asking, wander, is asking people to try and ex0lain why they love chocolate.

Which is easily done by any rational person. If you cannot explain why you like something you didn't bother to analyze it - and if you didn't bother to analyze it it cannot have been that good. Things that are truly good linger in your mind and prompt you to think about them. This is what objectively good entertainment does.

This is the crux of fandoms. Nostalgia and social pressure becomes a moving force to direct responses to something. That force blinds them to flaws and enhances the strengths till they see a distorted version of it - and can no longer grasp that that is not the version others see. It stops being about the quality and becomes more about the shared cultural experience. Which basically makes debates about the quality of these things pointless.

As someone who does not experience nostalgia and always judges things off of their own merits I have never really understood fandoms. I simply want quality entertainment and the franchise name attached to it makes no difference as to the quality of the individual part. I overall really enjoy the Marvel movies but I will freely admit that Thor 2 and Iron Man 3 are garbage fires. I love the Simpsons and can freely admit that the later seasons are at best "meh". I enjoyed the original trilogy of Star Wars movies - and I have no problem admitting that the prequels are drivel or that the Force Awakens was a paint by numbers rehash of A New Hope without a single instance of quality acting or writing.

[Deamonbane]

As someone who does not experience nostalgia and always judges things off of their own merits I have never really understood fandoms. I simply want quality entertainment and the franchise name attached to it makes no difference as to the quality of the individual part. I overall really enjoy the Marvel movies but I will freely admit that Thor 2 and Iron Man 3 are garbage fires. I love the Simpsons and can freely admit that the later seasons are at best "meh". I enjoyed the original trilogy of Star Wars movies - and I have no problem admitting that the prequels are drivel or that the Force Awakens was a paint by numbers rehash of A New Hope without a single instance of quality acting or writing.

So basically, you're saying that by not being pressured by nostalgia or society, you like the movies everyone is supposed to like, and dislike the ones that everyone else dislikes.

Everyone knows that Thor 2 and Iron Man 3 were horrible. A vast majority of people call the Original Trilogy of Star Wars movies masterpieces (not flawless films by a damn mile) and haughtily call the Prequels 'Drivel' even though they had their merits. And (shocker, I know) everyone knows that the Force Awakens was a remake of A New Hope. Everyone enjoys the older Simpsons episodes while saying that the new ones just aren't as good because of the nostalgia behind them.

Are you seeing how I get the feeling that your claims to being immune to the effects of nostalgia and fandoms is more than a little hypocritical?

[TheSithChicken]

So basically, you're saying that by not being pressured by nostalgia or society, you like the movies everyone is supposed to like, and dislike the ones that everyone else dislikes.

Everyone knows that Thor 2 and Iron Man 3 were horrible. A vast majority of people call the Original Trilogy of Star Wars movies masterpieces (not flawless films by a damn mile) and haughtily call the Prequels 'Drivel' even though they had their merits. And (shocker, I know) everyone knows that the Force Awakens was a remake of A New Hope. Everyone enjoys the older Simpsons episodes while saying that the new ones just aren't as good because of the nostalgia behind them.

Are you seeing how I get the feeling that your claims to being immune to the effects of nostalgia and fandoms feels more than a little hypocritical?

Way to go mischaracterizing what I said (and outright lying about fan reactions to certain movies) to make my argument weaker in your eyes. This is called a Strawman Argument. It is a logical fallacy. You make a secondary argument by misconstruing my argument to distract from the actual points I made. And followed it all with an Ad Hominem attack upon me. Need I go on or did I make my point?

[Deamonbane]

Did I mischaracterize what you said? Really? Or did you say that people who engage in nostalgia and fandoms are illogical whilst repeating the same mantra that every self-important Star Wars, MCU and Simpsons superfan has been quoting which is a rehash of 'The old days were so much better'? Not sure if that's a logical fallacy, but by heck, it should be.

So please, go on.

[TheSithChicken]

Did I mischaracterize what you said? Really? Or did you say that people who engage in nostalgia and fandoms are illogical whilst repeating the same mantra that every self-important Star Wars, MCU and Simpsons superfan has been quoting which is a rehash of 'The old days were so much better'? Not sure if that's a logical fallacy, but by heck, it should be.

So please, go on.

Once again mischaracterizing what I said. I never said the old were so much better. You would have to cherry pick from my argument (or completely misunderstand my argument) to take that from it. So yet another Strawman Argument. I'm done with you. You are intellectually dishonest and I have no time for people like you. So I'm gonna ignore you and call it a day.

[Deamonbane]

Excellent. Because it doesn't take a genius to figure out that fandom and nostalgia have nothing to do with logic or analytics, but instead with enjoyment and imagination. Or to put it in terms that you may be able to comprehend without taking it as a personal attack, not all good films are fun, and not all fun films are good. I would present a few personal favorites like The Raid: Redemption, The Raid 2, Dredd (Urban and Stallone), John Wick, and John Wick 2 as films that aren't necessarily good, but are enjoyable nonetheless. I even like the Star Wars Prequels and the new Star Trek films. Ditto a veritable horde of TV series that, from a critial standpoint petered out in early years and managed to still be enjoyable to fans despite that.

So instead of quoting all the logical flaws in my argument, would you care to explain how enjoying a film or series of films (Which are pieces of past iterations and therefore incomplete without them) is something that can be enjoyed without being subjected to logical and analytical dissection is a sign of willfully blinding themselves to the truth? Would you also care to explain that, while you claim to be above such fallacies as nostalgia and mindless enjoyment, you choose to substantiate your statement by rehashing arguments that have been on the tongues of critics for years?

Because that was your point in saying that people who are in fandoms and enjoy things for nostalgic reasons do so by ignoring the logical (and in many cases quite valid) criticisms of the cultural pieces that they enjoy when that is simply not true. Enjoying something does not incapacitate us from seeing the flaws. True, there are some 'superfans' who love something while claiming it is absolute perfection and any attack on it is seen as a personal attack, and these people are reshaping the world and what they love to fit their own views and it is not something limited solely to the realm of culture but rather a common flaw in humans as a rule. But a lot of people I know enjoy something simply because it is enjoyable, flaws and all. And while we admit that your criticisms are valid, it will not change the fact that we enjoy that thing anyways.

[Kye]

There is no reason for a discussion in this thread to get to this point of incivility.  Please remember to keep things civil, I don't want to have to lock this thread.  I suggest that everyone take a step away from this discussion now to cool down.

[TheSithChicken]

I never said I was above mindless entertainment (I love Dredd and the Raid and most of the movies you listed) nor did I say was above nostalgia. I am not capable of the emotion. I am on the low end of the ASPD spectrum. I do not possess the necessary emotional triggers for it. All my original argument was was that if you cannot defend why you like something your like is not based off of objective quality. That's it.

But that's why I avoid the conversational sections of E. I always get attacked.

[Deamonbane]

I never said I was above mindless entertainment (I love Dredd and the Raid and most of the movies you listed) nor did I say was above nostalgia. I am not capable of the emotion. I am on the low end of the ASPD spectrum. I do not possess the necessary emotional triggers for it. All my original argument was was that if you cannot defend why you like something your like is not based off of objective quality. That's it.

But that's why I avoid the conversational sections of E. I always get attacked.

I misunderstood, and took your statement as an attack. I apologize for that.

[HannibalBarca]

Inkidu, I both agree and disagree with some of your points (big surprise there :P )

I think you're right about the age of exposure to Star Wars.  My generation (Gen X) who grew up with the original trilogy, love them to death for the most part, and hate the prequels for the most part.  Milennials, though, seem to have a much higher regard for the prequels, and some even see them better than the originals.  What you are raised around makes a big difference.  My son, who is almost 16, has never been a fan of Star Wars, but he came out of Last Jedi gushing over it and saying it's one of the best films he's ever seen.

As for myself, I'm a Star Wars fan, but not a rabid one.  Empire is one of my favorite films, but not my #1.  That goes to another Lucas project, Raiders of the Lost Ark.  That was, for me, about as perfect as an action film can be.  Empire comes close, but not quite.

As for dinging episodes 7 and 8, well...even the original films had their flaws.  Lucas has never been one for great dialogue, and though he has his one liners and other moments, there are a lot of groaners in the original trilogy, too.  Lucas is also no great strategic mind, because the military plans of good guys and bad guys in the films are atrocious, old and new films.  Plot holes abound, characters show up and then leave with little or no explanation (bounty hunters in Empire, Maul in the prequels, Snoke and Phasma in the new ones).  Not to hoist you on your own petard, but it does indeed matter what generation you grow up in, insofar as how you look at the entirety of the Star Wars catalogue--unless you decouple yourself and give it all an unjaundiced, objective eye.

To answer what wander said about people not saying what they liked about episode 8:

spoilers!

• Admiral Holdo's sacrifice scene in the Raddis reminded me very much of similar anime scenes, particularly ones I remember in Macross--especially with the light effect and the silence.
• The rebel bomber pilots, especially Rose's sister.  It was a lot like Rogue One, which in itself was a lot like many, many war movies I saw with my father.  Sacrifice tends to ennoble characters greatly, and bring our sympathies to them.
• Rose's reaction to Finn trying to run away.  It was quite realistic, especially from a character who had just seen her sister die.
• Luke walking out of the smoking cloud of destruction from the walker's fire, grim-faced, then brushing some dust from his tunic.  Badassery to the extreme!
• Rey's entire scene in the dark cave with the mirror.  Daisy Ridley did so much acting just with her face there.
• Leia blasting Poe insensate.  That was a vintage badass Leia move.
• Kylo taking Snoke out.  Totally, totally unexpected.  I remember how my mind was whirling with the possibilities.  Rian Johnson had me completely unsure of what would happen--would Kylo kill Rey, would Kylo somehow set her free and stand beside her?  I never expected Kylo to kill Snoke.  The look on Snoke's face was priceless, too.
• Rey and Kylo's battle with Snoke's guards...especially the last one.  That saber to the face was epic.

That's all I recalled in two minutes.  There's probably more, but I've only seen it once, and there was a lot of material in it.

Look, I get the film was flawed.  But it was fun.  That's what I look for in this kind of film.  If I want to contemplate, I'll watch Blade Runner.  Star Wars is essentially an emotional and exciting rollercoaster ride meant to entertain.  If that kind of material doesn't work for you, then likely Star Wars isn't your cup of tea.

[Inkidu]

Freedom of speech and opinion are a thing :)

Um, yes... yes they are. I'm afraid I don't follow this line of thought, and I am not for people using it to validate their opinions and invalidate others'. Opinion and free speech aren't... critical tools they're the foundations upon which criticism is built.  It also doesn't excuse incivility or vileness. Freedom of speech isn't freedom from the consequences of speech. What the fandom did to that kid is just wrong, even if it's their right to say it.

I don’t mind anyone not liking the new Star Wars movie. Everyone has different tastes. I do not entirely like people judging a movie without having seen said movie themselves.

I didn't judge The Last Jedi. I specifically avoided judging it, but I did point to The Force Awakens as the foundations of this new trilogy and pointed out where I didn't think it was going to go the distance.

And you make plenty of very good points, Inkidu. I feel the same about Phantom Menace. It’s my least favourite movie of the eight, but it’s not a bad movie. When it first came out, I actually thought Jar Jar a bit funny. If I watch it now, I find him a bit annoying, but not enough to bash or hate the movie.

[Inkidu]

Inkidu, I both agree and disagree with some of your points (big surprise there :P )

I think you're right about the age of exposure to Star Wars.  My generation (Gen X) who grew up with the original trilogy, love them to death for the most part, and hate the prequels for the most part.  Milennials, though, seem to have a much higher regard for the prequels, and some even see them better than the originals.  What you are raised around makes a big difference.  My son, who is almost 16, has never been a fan of Star Wars, but he came out of Last Jedi gushing over it and saying it's one of the best films he's ever seen.

As for myself, I'm a Star Wars fan, but not a rabid one.  Empire is one of my favorite films, but not my #1.  That goes to another Lucas project, Raiders of the Lost Ark.  That was, for me, about as perfect as an action film can be.  Empire comes close, but not quite.

As for dinging episodes 7 and 8, well...even the original films had their flaws.  Lucas has never been one for great dialogue, and though he has his one liners and other moments, there are a lot of groaners in the original trilogy, too.  Lucas is also no great strategic mind, because the military plans of good guys and bad guys in the films are atrocious, old and new films.  Plot holes abound, characters show up and then leave with little or no explanation (bounty hunters in Empire, Maul in the prequels, Snoke and Phasma in the new ones).  Not to hoist you on your own petard, but it does indeed matter what generation you grow up in, insofar as how you look at the entirety of the Star Wars catalogue--unless you decouple yourself and give it all an unjaundiced, objective eye.

To answer what wander said about people not saying what they liked about episode 8:

spoilers!

• Admiral Holdo's sacrifice scene in the Raddis reminded me very much of similar anime scenes, particularly ones I remember in Macross--especially with the light effect and the silence.
• The rebel bomber pilots, especially Rose's sister.  It was a lot like Rogue One, which in itself was a lot like many, many war movies I saw with my father.  Sacrifice tends to ennoble characters greatly, and bring our sympathies to them.
• Rose's reaction to Finn trying to run away.  It was quite realistic, especially from a character who had just seen her sister die.
• Luke walking out of the smoking cloud of destruction from the walker's fire, grim-faced, then brushing some dust from his tunic.  Badassery to the extreme!
• Rey's entire scene in the dark cave with the mirror.  Daisy Ridley did so much acting just with her face there.
• Leia blasting Poe insensate.  That was a vintage badass Leia move.
• Kylo taking Snoke out.  Totally, totally unexpected.  I remember how my mind was whirling with the possibilities.  Rian Johnson had me completely unsure of what would happen--would Kylo kill Rey, would Kylo somehow set her free and stand beside her?  I never expected Kylo to kill Snoke.  The look on Snoke's face was priceless, too.
• Rey and Kylo's battle with Snoke's guards...especially the last one.  That saber to the face was epic.

That's all I recalled in two minutes.  There's probably more, but I've only seen it once, and there was a lot of material in it.

Look, I get the film was flawed.  But it was fun.  That's what I look for in this kind of film.  If I want to contemplate, I'll watch Blade Runner.  Star Wars is essentially an emotional and exciting rollercoaster ride meant to entertain.  If that kind of material doesn't work for you, then likely Star Wars isn't your cup of tea.

Well, yes, maybe I've grown too critical, but the original trilogy didn't commit the cardinal sin of boring-invincible protagonist, and it's not the actor's fault, but Rey was far too strong and left far too little room to grow in Force Awakens, and that's something that's so difficult to walk back that I would call it a literary impossibility. It's nothing against the actor's acting talent. She's great, but she's hamstrung by the bad writing. I don't know why they did it this way, maybe they were scared to have a female character appear weak I don't know.

I'm not saying that there weren't parts of TFA that I didn't enjoy, Finn was great, he had genuine growth, and doubt, he had real moments of bravery and no poor OP writing to fall back on. So the main protagonist thread was heavily flawed and greater hooks of the series weren't so much hooks or unanswered questions as JJ Abrams being his typical vague self. Not telling someone doesn't equal lingering question, sometimes it just says that you're just being obtuse.

I mean if a whole new generation of ten-year-olds love it, fine. I'm not going to scream on my soapbox and call people stupid for liking it, but it commits too many fundamental literary sins in my eyes to be considered good at least as an adult. And it just feels too much like this series has its foundations in that design-by-accounting-committee feel to it. Maybe I'm just able to see the beats and missteps easily, but I didn't enjoy TFA and more of the same is not going to draw me back into the series.

It's hard to realize that the things we loved as kids aren't going to grow with us and take on the views and shades we've accrued as adults. I guess in a lot of ways it's really painful a realization to make because it means saying goodbye to another piece of something you loved as a kid, but that doesn't mean that it's gone.

[HannibalBarca]

No my friend, I don't think you're too critical.  Your points are well-taken.  Star Wars isn't an entity, but a fantasy world that is now written by multiple creators and overseen by a corporate bigwig.  That's not the recipe for catching lightning in a bottle once again as Lucas did with the first two.  It's a recipe for cranking out crowd-pleasers that earn a lot of money.  What we're talking about doesn't even take into account what Disney requests be done to the script to make it more palatable for viewers from other nations and cultures, in order to rake in even more cash.

But you talked of literary sins, and that's something of my point: Star Wars isn't literature, unlike the original versions of Lord of the Rings, 2001: A Space Odyssey, or even Blade Runner to an extent.  I did read the Star Wars novel, after I saw the film.  It was written by Alan Dean Foster, an excellent science fiction author himself, but it came from Lucas' script, not the other way around.  Lucas' brilliance was in making a scene and then editing it all together into a cohesive whole...that and understanding the monomyth as taught by Joseph Campbell.  Lucas was great at synthesis, not at creating wholly new concepts.  J.K. Rowling is something similar, though I'd give her more credit for creating the opposite of what Tolkien made: a character-driven fantasy masterpiece, rather than a plot-driven one. 

If you look at Empire Strikes Back it's hard to credit too much to Lucas, since he didn't write most of the script and didn't direct it.  Once his friend Gary Kurtz left after Empire, it had a huge effect on Lucas--primarily, Kurtz wasn't there to be an objective voice and critic to bad ideas.  I will always wonder what Return of the Jedi and the prequels might have been like had Kurtz and Lucas not had their falling out.

[wander]

I mentioned once to my friend on the topic of Lucas and his creative outlook that more than likely the Ewoks were a big thing he wanted. They seem more in theme with the prequel films than anything we got in New Hope and Empire.

I think the thing with the prequels, whilst I'm on the subject and I haven't seen it talked on yet, is that at least Attack of the Clones was well into production and Lucas hadn't even finished the script when filming had started. Much was made up as he went and I can think of only one other film off the top of my head that didn't have a completed script before filming started; ALIEN ³.

More on topic; I've been checking youtube and last week after Tuesday the critic's reviews came in, praising it whilst pointing there were flaws (the most obvious and common one was the Finn/Rose side-quest that went nowhere), though overall it was highly recommended. Then spoiler reviews came out on Friday and more critical analysis came by pointing some legitimate concerns. Last night, hundreds of videos are saying TLJ sucked, the new trilogy is dead in many fan's eyes, videos asking what went wrong and a whole ton pointing out Disney seeming putting forth a specific agenda.

Now whether these changes have been put forth to fit for viewers of other nations and cultures or it speaks more to the kind of tract more obvious in Marvel's (also owned by Disney now) trash-fire of current superhero comics, the actual audience of previous fans are reacting more visibly to when Rogue One came out, which seemed to be a mixed bag for many people (I felt it was alright) and the whole Mary Sue debate in TFA which divided the fans theoretically still now, though to a lesser extent.

Whatever the case, I myself am a bit downheartened with the course Disney are currently taking things (I know some like the idea of the new trilogy 10-12 not having any Skywalker in them, though I don't like that, for one thing) and how the big corporation is managing things behind the scenes too. I think we can all agree also that when JJ Abrams comes back for Ep.9, what with this being Rey's final film with Daisy Ridley done after it to boot, he's really written into a corner right here and it's clear many things he planned have been handwaved away that I see retcons having to happen for him to get the plot to a decent finale for this arc.

[Inkidu]

No my friend, I don't think you're too critical.  Your points are well-taken.  Star Wars isn't an entity, but a fantasy world that is now written by multiple creators and overseen by a corporate bigwig.  That's not the recipe for catching lightning in a bottle once again as Lucas did with the first two.  It's a recipe for cranking out crowd-pleasers that earn a lot of money.  What we're talking about doesn't even take into account what Disney requests be done to the script to make it more palatable for viewers from other nations and cultures, in order to rake in even more cash.

But you talked of literary sins, and that's something of my point: Star Wars isn't literature, unlike the original versions of Lord of the Rings, 2001: A Space Odyssey, or even Blade Runner to an extent.  I did read the Star Wars novel, after I saw the film.  It was written by Alan Dean Foster, an excellent science fiction author himself, but it came from Lucas' script, not the other way around.  Lucas' brilliance was in making a scene and then editing it all together into a cohesive whole...that and understanding the monomyth as taught by Joseph Campbell.  Lucas was great at synthesis, not at creating wholly new concepts.  J.K. Rowling is something similar, though I'd give her more credit for creating the opposite of what Tolkien made: a character-driven fantasy masterpiece, rather than a plot-driven one. 

If you look at Empire Strikes Back it's hard to credit too much to Lucas, since he didn't write most of the script and didn't direct it.  Once his friend Gary Kurtz left after Empire, it had a huge effect on Lucas--primarily, Kurtz wasn't there to be an objective voice and critic to bad ideas.  I will always wonder what Return of the Jedi and the prequels might have been like had Kurtz and Lucas not had their falling out.

I think you took that literary thing too literally. But it kind of misses my point. All movies have writers. We all know this, directors often get the big spotlight because they compose the film, but there is some genuinely shoddy screenwriting in TFA. There's no amount of editing that can be done to properly de-power Rey after what they did in TFA. It just can't be done. They fell victim to some kind of power fantasy or fear and they made their hero way too strong from the start. It's especially egregious when you compare it to Finn her co-protagonist's arc in the same film. He's got no special powers, no special destiny, he's not even particularly good at anything, but he gets up there and stares down a Sith... and loses! And he's better for having lost.

Rey's just boring and unsympathetic by comparison. Add in JJ Abrams's shoddy practice of doing vague things in films and trying to pass it off as genuine mystery (like the lightsaber, to put it in perspective Luke got the same--well implied to be the same--blade in a New Hope and it was still just as unknown, but Lucas set up the Clone Wars and a hero father. Genuine lines of questioning. Abrams however said "Here's Luke's old lightsaber, you know you want it fanboys, wink wink nudge nudge. Who cares how you got it back from the crushing depths of a gas giant" That's just confusing not mysterious) and she comes out as flat and mono-dimensional. Not to detract from the actor at all. She was doing the best she could with bad writing, but after a while there's no level of composition or acting talent that can fix a crappy script, which is what a lot of people said about the prequels too, it's just this new series works so hard to hit all the nostalgia buttons and get fans to put up the blinders.

EDIT: Note on what I'm saying with the lightsaber: To Luke it was a talisman connecting him to his past, a past he knew nothing of, to Rey it's just a lightsaber, it'll probably turn out to be Obi Wan's or Luke's even, but it holds no special attachment to her, because no one explained any hint of what that was. It holds special meaning for the audience watching the film, which is just shameful and makes for a confusing and pandering scene to the viewers.

I decided to put this down here because the aside up in the comment was running way too long.