COMIC GEEKS Я US

[Callie Del Noire]

Ahhh! Yes, yes!


....what an atrocity. >:[ I mean there's nothing wrong with being her shape, but there is if you're supposed to be friggin' wonder woman. You know. That strong lady with hips and such. But eh, powerful women are rarely shown with muscle bulk, for fear that would make them too 'masculine', and it's often excused away by their powers compensating for lack of sinew, anyway. :p

Considering it was supposed to be Aly Mcbeal with capes according to some, I think that killed it. Of course with the Avengers breaking the Harry Potter weekend gross record I foresee some execs rethinking 'Cape shows'

[Chris Brady]

It isn't just the case that male characters overpower or take the focus from the female characters sometimes; male characters have the focus nearly all the time. I can count on my fingers the amount of female characters who hold their own without being subjugated by the male characters. Without having to be saved. X-Men is one of the worst for that. Women are transgressive and when they're powerful they need to be stopped. They start out good and pretty much always turn bad. Women are easily turned to evil. They follow their lust easier than men. They backstab each other. What Claremont showed was that women can be leading characters, just as men can be, without being evil or needing to be saved.

Actually, the truth of that is not that Claremont showed women could be strong, it was that he couldn't or rather didn't want to write men characters, so he focuses on the women to the exclusion of all else.  Even to the point of contriving reasons as to why male heroes\ aren't there.  He's similar to a Japanese artist, Masamune Shirow, who's on record for saying that he hates drawing men, absolutely despises it.  If there was a way he could have only women, or better yet, lesbians, he'd do it.  But unfortunately his fans like having male characters in his works.  That's more or less a paraphrase from a Shirow art book.

Let me state that there's nothing wrong with having strong characters, no matter the gender.  But there's strength in other ways that a lot of people seem to forget.  Not to mention that during the nineties there was this deluge of 'badass girls' which pretty much were guys with tits.  Most of them are gone now, thankfully, but some were changed and grown into better characters.

Also, there have been lot's of books without Mr. Claremont's influence that feature strong female leads.  Birds of Prey is a DC comic line, and it's almost always about three or more female operatives, being one.

If I remember correctly, Storm started out as a powerful woman, long before Claremont got his hands on her.  In fact, she was considered to be a Weather Goddess from the start.  She's out badassed a lot of other characters, and was the co-leader of the X-Men.  Jean Grey was always known to be the most powerful telekinetic, before Claremont.  He's the one who did the stupid Phoenix Saga, not to mention that because of him, Ms. Grey is now considered a joke.  "How long will she be dead this time, before we see a clone, mysterious resurrection or retcon?   Also, calling Emma Frost weak is more than just amusing...  It's deadly.

[ColdBloodedJellyDoughnut]

What I'm saying is that you're getting all up in arms about a woman taking the focus to the detriment of men. Take a look at the last 7 decades of comic books and realise that it is a drop in the bucket in comparison to the misogynistic bullshit that has proliferated comic narratives from pretty much all of it. It still goes on in the lengthening of Captain Marvel's hair (because she looked too masculine with short hair. What?) and the deepening of Zatanna's clevage.

Also, my point about Emma Frost in particular is that she's powerful, yet she's also a complete bitch and only gains that power to the detriment of other women. Hardly a feminist icon.

[Somnifera]

I absolutely can't stand Emma Frost.

Obviously I am not against sexuality, but it does get annoying that when they want to 'power up' a female, she becomes a sex icon. The reality of that is because a woman's sex appeal is the power she 'holds' (I don't really agree with this) over men. But it doesn't mean anything, realistically.

The issue is that writers/creators whomever seem to think including a female hero is good enough, and that makes it balanced,so the feminists should shut up. However, making a female character that exaggerates that her main appeal, on TOP of being a hero/villain is how sexy she is negates that. The characters in question are also just 'badass', which tends to translate to 'cold, calculating, strong' etc. That's not balanced out all the time by having a strong moral standpoint, showing compassion or mercy, being impacted by the death of others (and NOT just to 'get revenge) or just being smart, because giving someone more than two out of that list makes them less 'cool'. So yeah, what women often get depicted as whenever they are heroes or villains are just archetypical men with tits and less logical costumes.

[LunarSage]

This problem could be circumvented if more female writers got into the industry... which I wouldn't mind at all.

[ColdBloodedJellyDoughnut]

Saw this on tumblr earlier...

I need Feminism because apparently my comic/concept art isn’t valid amongst other male Comic/concept artists once I’m mistaken for a male and tell them that I’m female. I guess because I’m not a male, according to their words I “might not make it”  in the comic or game industry.

I'm struggling to think of female writers and artists. That's a damn shame.

[Callie Del Noire]

Saw this on tumblr earlier...

I'm struggling to think of female writers and artists. That's a damn shame.

Isn't Dan Didio's replacement a female writer?

[ColdBloodedJellyDoughnut]

Who you don't know the name of. Which is my point exactly.

[Callie Del Noire]

Who you don't know the name of. Which is my point exactly.

In my defense.. I don't read that much DC.. and the only reason Dan Dididio stands out in my memory is: 1. He sounds like a comic book character stan lee made 2. I know about 200 hundred DC fans who would like to take a chainsaw to his knees.

I read.. 3 DC titles, 3 marvel titles and like... 20 independents. Ask me about Atomic Robo..which I greatly enjoy..and you'll get me going. Ask me about how Filipino artist who helped develop Jonah Hex is having health insurance issues.. I can tell you. Ask me about most of Supes 'bad guys' or most any 'mainline' villian introduced after Bane in DC and I'll be hard pressed to admit I know it.

[Rinzler]

Offhand, I can think of three women comics artists/writers: Marie Severin, Melissa Gebbie & Leah Moore. Given that equally offhandedly, I could think of hundreds of male contributors, it shows - to me - what a massive disparity there is in the industry.

[ColdBloodedJellyDoughnut]

I personally despise Grant Morrison, but that's another story.

Off hand I can only think of Gail Simone and Nicola Scott (who I met and was awesome and amazing and she signed a copy of Secret Six for me). They are wonderful and I adore everything they do, sincerely (and not just because they're women, kay?) but it makes me mad that they're the only ones I can think of.

[Callie Del Noire]

Offhand, I can think of three women comics artists/writers: Marie Severin, Melissa Gebbie & Leah Moore. Given that equally offhandedly, I could think of hundreds of male contributors, it shows - to me - what a massive disparity there is in the industry.

I can add a few independent artists like Diana Sprinkle (Saiko & Lavender among others), Micheal Light (Shanda the Panda) and if I dig through my Convention book and Print Folder a few more.. I don't know that many 'mainstream' female comic artists/writers.  But like I said.. if it's like not one of my 3 DC titles or a marvel title that starts with 'Ultimate' I don't read it anymore.

[LunarSage]

Weregeek is a really cool webcomic done by an even cooler woman named Alina Pete.

[Chris Brady]

I absolutely can't stand Emma Frost.

Obviously I am not against sexuality, but it does get annoying that when they want to 'power up' a female, she becomes a sex icon. The reality of that is because a woman's sex appeal is the power she 'holds' (I don't really agree with this) over men. But it doesn't mean anything, realistically.

Hold up there, tiger.  You don't think women don't use their sexuality as a weapon?  You think male writers made it up wholesale?  Seriously?  Um, no, no actually, it's been well documented that women will use their looks, bodies and anything else that they can to get ahead.  Just like men do (except sex for us is an end goal, not a tool to use.)

Does that mean I like Ms. Frost?  Hell, no.  I think she an utter bitch and  I think Summers can do better than her.

The issue is that writers/creators whomever seem to think including a female hero is good enough, and that makes it balanced,so the feminists should shut up. However, making a female character that exaggerates that her main appeal, on TOP of being a hero/villain is how sexy she is negates that. The characters in question are also just 'badass', which tends to translate to 'cold, calculating, strong' etc. That's not balanced out all the time by having a strong moral standpoint, showing compassion or mercy, being impacted by the death of others (and NOT just to 'get revenge) or just being smart, because giving someone more than two out of that list makes them less 'cool'. So yeah, what women often get depicted as whenever they are heroes or villains are just archetypical men with tits and less logical costumes.

I think the trap that we're falling into is trying to shoehorn both genders into a single archetype.  And really (And I wish I didn't have to bring up this old argument of mine) men and women are cool in two different ways.

Men are cool and powerful in pure physicality of action, usually something either hinting or completely wallowing in violence.  Women want him, men want to be him.

Women are cool and powerful when they're sexy and confident about it.  Men want her, women want to be her.

But therein lies a problem.  A lot of women don't like other confident women, they instinctively view them as a threat.  Men around with other confident men, same, but we react differently.  Men will typically try to emulate this guy (usually to disastrous results) or avoid completely, we rarely take direct action against the more confident male, because we assume that he will win.  We men are controlled by our Egos.  And dear God, does that get messy.                     

Women around a 'threat' will try and tear her down, usually among her friends or colleagues.  Ladies can get very nasty when they have a target.  If you've ever been close to a 'water cooler chat' where there's a pretty co-worker, you will encounter this.  The women will verbally attack the target, making snide comments on her clothing, her sexuality, her promiscuity, all to make sure that she's brought down to a level below them.

Hell, look at all the celebrity mags out there, even if you don't read them, the cover is usually filled with lurid details of whatever expose (usually on a female star, although men are not immune), hell last month it was claimed that the Kardashians 'destroyed' another man.  If I remember correct, this month, apparently one of them is pregnant with another man's baby.  Then there's Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie, and how terrible a parent she is.  Jennifer Aniston (?) was a favourite target for a while...

Also, comics started originally as a boy's product.  Girls were traditionally never interested in them.  Now they are (although having popular male stars as main leads for the movie adaptations is certainly not hurting them), and so the market is changing, and a lot of the older writers (Did you know that Image comics is now 20 years old???) are struggling to adapt to it.  And struggling they are.  Back in the 90's the idea of a 'Gamer Girl' (or a girl interested in stuff boys like) was still considered a myth by a lot of people.  But now that we're in the 2000s, and we're finding more and more are interested in what was once considered traditionally boy's hobbies, the big conglomerates are trying to get them in.  With mixed results.

So they're trying at least.  And there are a lot more female comic writers than there was 10 years ago, so at least that counts for something.

*Looks down wonders where the soapbox came from gets off it and hides*

Rant over, with apologies.

[ColdBloodedJellyDoughnut]

I stopped reading after...

Women are cool and powerful when they're sexy and confident about it.  Men want her, women want to be her.

But therein lies a problem.  A lot of women don't like other confident women, they instinctively view them as a threat.

I cannot even...

[Somnifera]

I stopped reading after...

I cannot even...

I feel your pain.

Hold up there, tiger.  You don't think women don't use their sexuality as a weapon?  You think male writers made it up wholesale?  Seriously?  Um, no, no actually, it's been well documented that women will use their looks, bodies and anything else that they can to get ahead.  Just like men do (except sex for us is an end goal, not a tool to use.)

Please don't call me Tiger, and you'll notice I did not say that at all. As such, I don't need to specifically address this, aside from saying that the allusion I was making is that sex=power is not and should not be the ne plus ultra of feminine strength and dominance (as far as heroes/villains are concerned. I don't feel that one gender should be dominant over the other, of course, but that they should be equal.


I also feel that this:
"But therein lies a problem.  A lot of women don't like other confident women, they instinctively view them as a threat.  Men around with other confident men, same, but we react differently.  Men will typically try to emulate this guy (usually to disastrous results) or avoid completely, we rarely take direct action against the more confident male, because we assume that he will win.  We men are controlled by our Egos.  And dear God, does that get messy.                     

Women around a 'threat' will try and tear her down, usually among her friends or colleagues.  Ladies can get very nasty when they have a target.  If you've ever been close to a 'water cooler chat' where there's a pretty co-worker, you will encounter this.  The women will verbally attack the target, making snide comments on her clothing, her sexuality, her promiscuity, all to make sure that she's brought down to a level below them."

SHould be treated with a scalpel. The fact that women, like men, can be competitive and 'mean' with each other means nothing in this specific conversation about the lack of relevance GOOD female characters have in the comic industry.

Belittling a woman based on her appearance over her actions or quality isn't limited to women, either- in general, society resorts to calling a disliked woman  ugly or fat, no matter how little her appearance has to do with her position or 'offense' so that doesn't have any sway against this argument, either.

In fact, I'm not quite sure what message you've tried to get across. I'm aware of and agree with many of the things you said, at face value; however I think it would be helpful for you to consider that whatever negativity you witness is more of a social construct than true nature. Women are concerned with how their female peers view them, yes, but not because they are on the watch for a dominant one. They are this way because in the beginning, women often relied on other women to help take care of their offspring. Becoming disfavored by the matriarch or ousted by the group meant a hard winter.

However, these days, with the wounded male archetype in power, being male and appealing to males is the key to success. Women have turned to tearing down their peers in order to seem less feminist, more coldhearted and dominant, and therefore more appealing to men. I'm sure you yourself may not find those qualities desirable, but I assure you, this is the case. There's a very good book on this called Female Chauvinist Pigs.

But let me finish on this:

"Women are cool and powerful when they're sexy and confident about it.  Men want her, women want to be her."

"Women are cool and powerful when they're sexy and confident about it."


Dominant, strong women are those who are merely confident about their sex appeal?

....Mm.

[rick957]

Responses to various things:

The only comics I read are just adaptions of things that aren't comics.

How interesting and unique.  I know someone who buys the recent Stephen King adaptations but doesn't read comics otherwise.  I guess that means they must be pretty good, right?  I think I bought one of the series because it was Jae Lee, but I haven't read it yet.  (I buy lots and lots and lots of comic artists' stuff just based on their name only.  Actually that's pretty much how I choose things, based on the creative team, not the characters.)

The Thing From Another World

Here's a link to a shop in New York that has all of the first series for $3 before shipping ... but then the shipping to Australia adds, like, $15.  :(  Oh well, never mind.  :)  I thought I could find you a reasonable price there, but I forgot how unaffordable overseas mail is. 

FWIW, at least for comics buyers in the USA, that site there has by far the best selection and prices I've found anywhere on the web; oftentimes the deals are better than you can find at small comics conventions, which is one of the only other ways that I can find stuff cheap enough for my moneygrubbing tastes.  :)  (Crappo, did I just inadvertently break a rule by linking to a selling site?  Somebody tell me if I did.  I won't get a commission or nothin'.)

I think you completely misunderstood everything I said in a huge way.

I see that now; sorry about that.  The word "worst" in the post I was replying to seemed to contradict other stuff you said.  But anyway, thanks to your clarifications, I think I got your point now.  :)

Still, I wonder what your definition of weak is. And your definition of powerful. Does power mean evil?

Are we still talking about superhero comics, or in general?  Because that would make a gigantic difference, as far as my answer goes. 

About women in superhero comics, as several here have already pointed out, the history of the medium makes a huge difference.  Here's some stuff I've heard about it, although I'm no authority.  One of the sad legacies of the success of Superman in 1938 was that comics started being aimed predominantly at pre-pubescent males.  Little boys don't give two hoots about any women except Mom, from what I can recall; or else they find all little girls repulsive.  (Obviously that does a 180 once their hormones kick in.)  (Also obviously I'm making generalizations about children who end up straight, as I did; it must be different for many gay people, I would guess.)

Anyway, women have no role in superhero comics historically except as that of the rescue-able victim.  With rare exceptions, superhero comics with female leads or aimed at female readers have always failed sooner rather than later, and that remains true to this day.  (Another aside:  that's not to say that there haven't always been some women reading superhero comics, but the largest numbers of women who paid any attention to comics at all were more drawn to other genres, like romance comics -- once a huge business -- or comics with cartoon-type characters, like Disney.  Did you know that historically-speaking, the latter type of comic is still the all-time bestselling variety, moreso than superhero comics?  Not many people know that now because superheros have ruled the market since the 60s.)

Sorry, I enjoy talking about comics history.  Anyway, my personal opinion is that we've never had the privilege of seeing superhero comics created with a genuinely and predominantly female sensibility in mind, because there's no market for it, and the owners and creative people have always been mostly male.  Would I love to see such comics?  Hell yes.  Do I think it will ever happen?  Sure doesn't look likely, but you never know!

Instead we're stuck with T&A up to our eyeballs.  The weird thing about that, to me, is that the only reason it's out there is because comics artists are almost all horny adult males, even though the superhero genre in its essential nature targets prepubescent males.  The poor artists are stuck drawing naked flying beefcake all day, which might be great for them if they were gay, but most aren't, so now and then they get frustrated and vent by doing mega-cheesecake, over-compensating for having to draw muscle-y dudes for a living.  I can't blame 'em -- in fact, I love that stuff, because I'm a dumb horny average straight dude too, but I don't think it makes for good superhero comics.

Essential reading for all straight male comics readers and anyone else who cares about gender issues in comics.  Also the original source is worth some attention.  There's so much more to say on those topics, but I better stop for now.

If I remember correctly, Storm started out as a powerful woman, long before Claremont got his hands on her.  In fact, she was considered to be a Weather Goddess from the start.  She's out badassed a lot of other characters, and was the co-leader of the X-Men.  Jean Grey was always known to be the most powerful telekinetic, before Claremont.  He's the one who did the stupid Phoenix Saga, not to mention that because of him, Ms. Grey is now considered a joke.  "How long will she be dead this time, before we see a clone, mysterious resurrection or retcon?   Also, calling Emma Frost weak is more than just amusing...  It's deadly.

Just a little more history:  Claremont deserves total credit for the powerful nature of Storm and Jean Grey and Emma Frost and Jubilee.  I'm pretty sure he created the latter two and did all the defining work on the former two, neither of which were written by anyone else for hardly any time before he took over.  The fact is that everything well-known about the X-Men is based on his work exclusively, because those are the comics that sold.  The ingenious X-Men "mutie vs. the world" concept was created previously by Lee and Kirby, but they failed to make it successful at the time.

The issue is that writers/creators whomever seem to think including a female hero is good enough, and that makes it balanced,so the feminists should shut up. However, making a female character that exaggerates that her main appeal, on TOP of being a hero/villain is how sexy she is negates that. The characters in question are also just 'badass', which tends to translate to 'cold, calculating, strong' etc. That's not balanced out all the time by having a strong moral standpoint, showing compassion or mercy, being impacted by the death of others (and NOT just to 'get revenge) or just being smart, because giving someone more than two out of that list makes them less 'cool'. So yeah, what women often get depicted as whenever they are heroes or villains are just archetypical men with tits and less logical costumes.

If I hadn't blabbed for too long already, I'd have lots more to say about these kinds of things.  This paragraph for example is chock-full of intriguing insights, IMO.

I'm struggling to think of female writers and artists. That's a damn shame.

Dan Didio got publicly pilloried over this issue after making an idiotic PR gaffe at last years San Diego con.  This old link about that has a very long comments section which includes mentions of just about every woman who has worked in comics since the Bronze Age, and the lists are shockingly long.  Most of them aren't famous though.

[Callie Del Noire]

Dan Didio got publicly pilloried over this issue after making an idiotic PR gaffe at last years San Diego con.  This old link about that has a very long comments section which includes mentions of just about every woman who has worked in comics since the Bronze Age, and the lists are shockingly long.  Most of them aren't famous though.

My friends hate him for a variety of reasons. Most of them involve his push to kill characters. (Their outlook  not mine) I find it ASTONISHING that, given the mourning and impact that the Death of Robin (Jason Todd) and Blue Beatle (Ted Kord) that there was NO memorial for Robin (Stephanie Brown) and damn little mouring. Jason..who stupidly got himself killed (before the retcon) got a memorial spot for his costume, and for the most part she was written off. (Particularly after her 'murder' was solved)

[Somnifera]

Rick;

I feel like I could have an interesting conversation with you on the matter. I like that you referenced the 'WiR' link. I know I mentioned this above, but user Feminist Frequency on Youtube has a useful set of videos with that and other tropes relating to how women are used in movies, comics, books, etc. Plus, I must admit, I chuckled at your post.

[rick957]

@ Somnifera

I'm always happy to receive PMs -- feel free to get in touch.  Assuming you get approved of course.  Perhaps by then I'll have had time to check out some of those videos you mentioned.

[ColdBloodedJellyDoughnut]

Anyway, women have no role in superhero comics historically except as that of the rescue-able victim.  With rare exceptions, superhero comics with female leads or aimed at female readers have always failed sooner rather than later, and that remains true to this day. 

...  Anyway, my personal opinion is that we've never had the privilege of seeing superhero comics created with a genuinely and predominantly female sensibility in mind, because there's no market for it, and the owners and creative people have always been mostly male.  Would I love to see such comics?  Hell yes.  Do I think it will ever happen?  Sure doesn't look likely, but you never know!

Several things that are wrong about that one. Wonder Woman. Aimed at women. Featuring a main woman. Not successful? Are you kidding me!? Despite the alarming amount of bondage symbology that proliferates her early stories, she's not a victim.

Birds of Prey has last for quite a long while now and it's still doing well, despite the fact that female readership of DC completely plummeting. There's only a couple of comics that seem to still be catering to those readers and I really, sincerely hope they keep going.

Wonder Woman, Birds of Prey, Worlds' Finest, Batwoman and Batgirl. It looks like Stephanie Brown may be coming back but I totally agree about the way she's been misused. She was only just beginning to get back some ground and then the retcon kicked in and she disappeared. I also love the rumour that Renee Montoya might be The Question again. She is kick ass.

So maybe you need to look a bit harder, Rick.

Somnifera, I really hope you get approved because everything you said was awesome.

[Chris Brady]

You know what, I'm bowing out of this thread, as best I can.  Once people make assumptions about what I mean, it's best I do.

Enjoy peeps.

[Somnifera]

Wonder Woman, Birds of Prey, Worlds' Finest, Batwoman and Batgirl. It looks like Stephanie Brown may be coming back but I totally agree about the way she's been misused. She was only just beginning to get back some ground and then the retcon kicked in and she disappeared. I also love the rumour that Renee Montoya might be The Question again. She is kick ass.

So maybe you need to look a bit harder, Rick.

Somnifera, I really hope you get approved because everything you said was awesome.

Thank you for posting this. When he initially said the whole 'rescuable victim' thing I knew it was wrong, but you can't just say 'nu-uh' on the internet with no textual evidence, and I don't read enough mainstream comics to make the argument properly. My comic shelf is wee but my passion is nerdtastic. :looks fondly at a Hellboy poster...: However it also seemed possible that for the MOST part (and with the strange exclusion of Wonder Woman?) he was alluding to a 'decades ago' state of comics, since he said historically. I dunno. I'm not a psychic. xD

And thank you for your hopes and the compliment. I hope I do, too; it should take a smidgen longer because my S.O. is a member here, so there's the same IP thing to deal with.

While we're on this topic....Powergirl, anyone? 'Poor thing. She's just as sad, silly woman who can't find a way to symbolize herself' or so the writers attempted to explain. Even though the symbols are... printed? embroidered? onto the fabric of a superhero's uniform, she just has a hole there.. because she's lonely... Or empowered, depending on who you ask.

There's a fun article about the whole female costume fiascoes by Cracked. I can't post links, since I'm a newb, but it's called "The 5 Most Ridiculously Sexist Superhero Costumes". The intro says it all:

"Female superhero costumes are the comic industry's "No Cooties" signs: They prove that the people who designed them think about girls (a lot) but don't really know how they work and are making sure it stays that way."

Also, no one else may feel my nerdrage, but as someone that reads the Hellboy comics, I can't help but hold against the movies falling to the common hollywood crutch of having to have a female character be a love interest. In the comics, Liz wasn't such an insane obsession- she's not even a love interest, and Hellboy wasn't as dumb. In fact, when it came to intimacy, Hellboy and Kate were a thing for a bit until they realistically and unheartwrenchingly decided to cut it off, because their relationship attracted too much attention from demons and ghosts or whatever. But Kate was usually pictured in a chunky turtleneck sweater and large coat, and didn't have any emotional issues. She never stood a chance. Then by the end of the second movie, Liz is pregnant, which seems highly unlikely, given that Hellboy's a demon and that's caused him plenty of grief. Sure, he's childishly enamored with the idea of becoming a father (mostly because his died), but you'd think Liz would have taken steps to avoid that. But oh, no, we all know a happy ending is one with twins.

[ColdBloodedJellyDoughnut]

I kind of liked the boob window. The new outfit is kind of... 90s? I love Worlds' Finest though. I've got it on order at my comic book shop. PG's boobs are still huge, but now it's just... eh. You know? Still, she and Huntress are two of my fave heroes ever.

I dunno much about Hellboy except the movies, which I do like. Where would you start if I was going to get into reading them?

[Callie Del Noire]

I kind of liked the boob window. The new outfit is kind of... 90s? I love Worlds' Finest though. I've got it on order at my comic book shop. PG's boobs are still huge, but now it's just... eh. You know? Still, she and Huntress are two of my fave heroes ever.

I dunno much about Hellboy except the movies, which I do like. Where would you start if I was going to get into reading them?

I would suggest going with Seed of Destruction is the place to start.