The Razing of Eden [EX, monstergirls/boys/etc] Recruiting

[AndyZ]

From my perspective, in real life, a mundane knight is just not beating a dragon. This evens up the odds so it's quite feasible, as much for plot purposes as anything else.

[wigglebiscuit]

Drake does make a good point, though.

At some point it becomes a suspension of disbelief issue. You can say, "the humans were able to defeat the elves because they are immune to magic," and I can shrug if I don't think about it too much, even if it doesn't really make that much sense (which it doesn't).

But no matter how many times you say, "the humans were able to defeat the dragon because they are immune to magic," a big part of me is going to reply: "yeah, but it's a dragon. It's a big, freaking dragon. It doesn't need magic, because it's a big, freaking dragon. And no, muskets doesn't quite sell it. There's giving the GM some room to breathe (the elves) and there is ruling by fiat (dragons).

Either have no dragons, or significantly raise the tech level of the humans.

[Karma]

Smaug, a huge intelligent ancient dragon, died because he had a single scale missing and one guy got a lucky shot. You guys aren't thinking straight. Dragons come in all shapes and sizes, all levels of intelligence, all arrangements of magical powers or having none at all. Like everything else they are a product of whoever designs the setting. You are all talking as if there's just one type of dragon and that isn't true. It's also completely glossing over the fact that dragons are not the point of this game whatsoever; monster people are. You're fixated on an example that has already been admitted as poor. Get this thread back on a relevant topic please.

[Hob]

(Chuckling ruefully)

You know, I'm really starting to regret using a dragon as an example. It was really just an off-hand comment. Because, to be honest, before I said anything there was no mention of dragons in this setting at all regardless of size or destructive capability!  I don't think they were supposed to be part of the story in the least!

[EdwardShane]

If I may interject one final thing.

My anticipation is that we aren't talking about the giant, huge wingspan, fire/acid/frost/lightning/what have you breathing monstrosities that capture princesses and eat knights for breakfast, armor and all.

We're referring to dragon monster girls/boys, which are roughly human sized beings.  They might be tough, yes, but enough humans would arguably overpower one.  A single human does have a chance at beating one, and if they gang up on one their chances rise accordingly.

Short version, we're dealing with something more like this as opposed to this.  Huge difference.

[Karma]

That is correct, Edward! If giant fantasy beasts have a part to play in this game it will be limited to big plot events. They aren't a primary feature of the setting. I'm in discussion with a GM candidate and if that goes well I will be updating the thread with a detailed game concept post when I find the time.

[Jezabelle]

Hello friends!

I am the aforementioned GM candidate.  Leveling with you here, I've never run such a large game before, but I'm willing to go for a challenge if you're willing to have me.

Right now I'm working on Humanity fluff\backstory, and dealing with the how-the-hell'd-they-beat-magic? question.  A few fun facts which are only quasi-canon at this point, feel free to be like "ewww" and tell me what you'd prefer/dislike about it:

+Humans have access to an ore which when refined can produce a purple steel with magical resistance; mostly these were just for stylish jewelry and noble's swords but now that they've had to face magic they're being widely used for weaponry.

+Humanity has access to easily movable trebuchets, repeating heavy crossbows, heavy black powder based Bombards for naval warfare and fixed defenses, and are generally the only real civilizations, as well as the only warlike societies.

+Mega-beasts are rare, and among them ones that are inherently violent are rare, but certainly exist; if they all decided to gang-bang Humanity at once they'd probably push them to the brink of being wiped off the continent, but most of these entities spend their time feuding with one another.  At most immediate family clans cooperate, and even then treachery and power struggles are common.  Dragons can kill hundreds of humans and certainly none of them have a snowflake's chance in hell of taking one in single combat, but a Great Bombard scoring a lucky shot or a boulder or a hail of crossbow bolts is often too real a possibility for an inherently self centered being to risk.  Mostly humans give dragons and their ilk a wide berth and build a series of watch towers\fortifications to know if they soiree.

+Magic has been developed and used in a cottage-industry fashion for sex, healing, and psychedelics--while it may have vast untapped warfare potential, there has been no basis for anything approaching "warfare" until just now; Human tech doesn't outstrip magic, not by a long shot, but magic hasn't been developed for combat.  Offensive magic certainly exists, but its emphasis would be single combat or anti-predator.

Let me know if there's anything else you'd like to have hashed out before hand.  As far as Monsterboy/girl breeds are going I was thinking we'd leave that as open as possible so players could bring their own concepts to the table there, but as far as Magic is concerned Karma and I are toying with a physical connection to casting (which would be largely cantrips or rituals).    This would allow Humans to make some monstergirls\boys involuntarily cast via specialized restraining apparatus, but of course is not guaranteed to be possible if that's not ya cup of tea.

[Karma]

Welcome to the spotlight! This is all generally within what I had imagined, but I'd like to remind everyone that Big Monsters aren't and won't be a focus, and certainly for now can be ignored entirely. It will be humans and halmons entirely for a good while. I have the day off tomorrow so I will be working on the core concept document and get an example character sheet up for y'all!

[Drake Valentine]

Will post my opinion when I get home.

[wander]

Still keeping an eye out, haven't posted as I've been waiting for more concrete details to come in, I'll be poking in a bit more often now. And Jezabelle GMing too, I'm pleasantly excited. :)

[Hob]

Just some random thoughts and opinions...

+Humans have access to an ore which when refined can produce a purple steel with magical resistance; mostly these were just for stylish jewelry and noble's swords but now that they've had to face magic they're being widely used for weaponry.

I like this! Although hopefully a better name can be found than "Purple Steel"?  Sounds like heavy metal cover band for Prince songs.

+Humanity has access to easily movable trebuchets, repeating heavy crossbows, heavy black powder based Bombards for naval warfare and fixed defenses, and are generally the only real civilizations, as well as the only warlike societies.

(Laughing to myself) I just had this image in my head of the hunters pushing along a trebuchet... But to the topic, the tech level as you described it would be roughly 15th Century, yes?

+Mega-beasts are rare, and among them ones that are inherently violent are rare, but certainly exist; if they all decided to gang-bang Humanity at once they'd probably push them to the brink of being wiped off the continent, but most of these entities spend their time feuding with one another.  At most immediate family clans cooperate, and even then treachery and power struggles are common.  Dragons can kill hundreds of humans and certainly none of them have a snowflake's chance in hell of taking one in single combat, but a Great Bombard scoring a lucky shot or a boulder or a hail of crossbow bolts is often too real a possibility for an inherently self centered being to risk.  Mostly humans give dragons and their ilk a wide berth and build a series of watch towers\fortifications to know if they soiree.

*weeps for ever having mentioned dragons to begin with*

+Magic has been developed and used in a cottage-industry fashion for sex, healing, and psychedelics--while it may have vast untapped warfare potential, there has been no basis for anything approaching "warfare" until just now; Human tech doesn't outstrip magic, not by a long shot, but magic hasn't been developed for combat.  Offensive magic certainly exists, but its emphasis would be single combat or anti-predator

... would allow Humans to make some monstergirls\boys involuntarily cast via specialized restraining apparatus, but of course is not guaranteed to be possible if that's not ya cup of tea.

Not quite sure about this last part. I'll wait and see how it develops.

Let me know if there's anything else you'd like to have hashed out before hand.

Just a point of clarification: Is the reason that the humans hunt/enslave/harvest/domesticate/eat halmon because there are no other large creatures for them to survive off of?  In other words, in this land did the halmon fill the ecological niches that creatures like bears, deer, wolves, cows, pigs, etc... etc... would have in whatever lands the human originally came from? And to what extent have humans domesticated halmon? Are there monsters who have basically been bred into captivity for generations?

[Karma]

On your last point, that's exactly right. Animals exist on the continent, but the halmon are the primary form of life. There are absolutely large swathes of halmon that have been farmed for centuries, though they aren't quite as obedient as actual animals are, which of course does them no favors.

[Drake Valentine]

But seriously.


My views on magic and technology.

Magic breaks the fundamental principle of physics.

Technology reinforces the fundamentals of physics.

Obviously the both of them would be yin and yang.

As far as technology, I believe Industry Revolution may work best for humans, they achieve a point allowing the use of steamworks/steam engines and nothing over the top in firearms, still flintlocks or muskets, there may be cannons, the highest tier of technology if we want to branch the fantasy realm may be flying Zepplins operating off of again, steam power. There may be those that gear armor or take technological trades, anything that may apply to the laws of physics of a civilized life may build their immunity against magic.

This isn't to say magic is completely outclassed, but I do not see a magical beast having much power or influence in a city of humans given the obvious amount of technology would downgrade actual power/make magic fizzle or not even work at all. As a result, magic cannot be harness by humans, if they are immune or highly resistant, they will not reap the benefits of healing and also they cannot learn magic, period. I foresee only those of a free spirit/deprive of technology/basic savage or primitive by civilized human standards be less immune to such powers and may adapt or learn it; if such was to ever arise in the GM world for the game, but most humans do not have the potential or power given their upbringing.

Does this mean magic is completely useless against humans? No. There should be territorial areas as well where magic may counteract with technology. I can also see powerful beings of magic causing parties of humans guns to backfire on them or not even work period. Of course, such should be left up to be overseen of how much one would allow in happening, but I do not see Harmon having any advantage whatsoever if they raid a human city, assuming humans got a good foothill of technology level out in town, that magic would mostly be useless. The same could be said in a technological aspect if humans push deeper into territory that may be more heavily magically inclined. There should be some grounds to balance to this whole magic vs technology.

[EdwardShane]

Ehhhhh.  I'd need a bit more solid of a reason as to why technology and magic clash in that manner to accept it, admittedly.  I don't see magic fizzling in a tech area just because there's tech in the vicinity (unless it's designed particularly for the sole purpose of countering magic) and vice versa.  Both things would need to have logical explanations as to why they counteract each other.  IE, a machine that emits wavelengths that screws with the flow of magic or a brand of probably trickster magic that causes mishaps and such preventing mechanical stuff from working properly.  I'm sorry, but I personally can't buy into the whole 'it happens because they're opposites' bit, and would have to bow out if it were implemented.

[Karma]

That's not something we'll be using. This is a middle fantasy setting, not a steampunk or Victorian one. Thank you for your ideas, Drake.

[AndyZ]

I'm not a GM for this, so I leave it to GMs if they want it to be enforced.  I only mention it because it may help.

The thing between magic and technology is that technology is much, much easier to share.

If I want to learn how to construct a fireball spell, I need to spend years learning about the true nature of fire, have the proper reagents on hand, whatever this setting requires of magic.  At the very least, it'll take a few years to learn the spell.

If I want to shoot a gun, I can have one blacksmith crank out a musket every week or so.  I can teach someone the basics of shooting in a few days, and they may not be great shots, but a dozen of them could take down enough monsters to inspire fear in the rest.

If you've ever seen a movie where a crew of people come into with guns and subdue a crowd twenty times their size, the same tactics apply.  Add to that that while humans might know about reload times, technological is just as mysterious to the mystical as magic is to humans.

Wars are won with attrition. Real life world wars had huge casualties as you were effectively throwing bodies against machine guns, and that requires enormous coordination between those willing to fight.  Granted, there was also that your own side would gun you down if you try to run away.

It's not at all difficult to imagine a group of humans with guns meeting a group of halmon, the most combat-worthy and aggressive of the halmon fighting back and getting shot, and the rest simply submitting.

It also occurs to me that, if dragons exist in this setting at all, they might well accept bribes from the humans in order to turn on their fellow halmon.

But again, I'm not GM, and this is just how I see things.  Up to the GMs how accurate this all is.

[Karma]

You've got the right idea. A vital point is that the halmon are not organized. Clans and family groups, yes, but no cities, and for the most part not even villages. They are for the most part not warlike because they didn't need to be until it was far too late.

[Jezabelle]

Just some random thoughts and opinions...

I like this! Although hopefully a better name can be found than "Purple Steel"?  Sounds like heavy metal cover band for Prince songs.

Yeah, I just didn't want to innundate you guys with proper nouns.  I'm also doing lots of work on the history of the Human nations and how they spent the last few centuries (at the least) all on their lonesome.

(Laughing to myself) I just had this image in my head of the hunters pushing along a trebuchet... But to the topic, the tech level as you described it would be roughly 15th Century, yes?

Roughly, with a cho-ku-no analogue invented by not!HRE-if-it-were-way-multicultural.  Your pioneer huntsmen are probably using bows with tri-shots (the cho-ku-no analogue) in a defensive arsenal for if shit ever hits the fan.

I intend to fluff it as Humans generally prefer pole-arms or spears on this continent, because monsterboys/girls have things like claws and natural armour that make closer combat riskier in general, but honour\profession\tradition\unique circumstances\personal skill all factor in to that.

*weeps for ever having mentioned dragons to begin with*

If\when mega-beasts come in, they probably wouldn't be Dragons.  I have some plans for that I've discussed with Karma, but to hit things off the most imposing threat around will probably be yours hunstmen tbqh.

Magic breaks the fundamental principle of physics.

Technology reinforces the fundamentals of physics.

Obviously the both of them would be yin and yang.

...

This isn't to say magic is completely outclassed, but I do not see a magical beast having much power or influence in a city of humans given the obvious amount of technology would downgrade actual power/make magic fizzle or not even work at all.

I think as far as the "but-who-would-win?" argument is concerned, the fact that there are neither TOTAL-warlike entities nor civilizations to speak of on the Halmons continent. 

In fact, the best hope for Halmon "civilization" is probably the fact that if they don't get organized they'll be domesticated by Humans.  As for Elves, various Human colonizing factions will have different ideas about them... but mostly... they'd either be taken as prized fuck slaves and "civilized," tortured and experimented upon, or written off as vile barbarians told to keep clear at best.  I don't know if this has been said in-thread but Karma clarified Elf-Human comms are possible at present, but that doesn't fix Halmon-Human-Elf comms because, well:

Think about it as a dirty caveman with pointy ears and a sexy face explaining to you that the cows have feelings, thoughts, and communicate with him--and you should set them all free, not kill them for beef or milk them.  Does BigAgri stop for those folks in `Murika? Naw.  Neither would these colonizing powers.

Ehhhhh.  I'd need a bit more solid of a reason as to why technology and magic clash in that manner to accept it, admittedly.  I don't see magic fizzling in a tech area just because there's tech in the vicinity (unless it's designed particularly for the sole purpose of countering magic) and vice versa.  Both things would need to have logical explanations as to why they counteract each other.  IE, a machine that emits wavelengths that screws with the flow of magic or a brand of probably trickster magic that causes mishaps and such preventing mechanical stuff from working properly.  I'm sorry, but I personally can't buy into the whole 'it happens because they're opposites' bit, and would have to bow out if it were implemented.

Tech v Magic would be more like "oh fuck, that Elf in the cells performed a ritual of Sprout Tree on a seed he planted in the jail wall last night and the partial collapse allowed some prisoners to escape.

Go break his fucking arms so he can't do it again.  Yes, Dave, for the third time."

Elves don't summon down meteorites or cause wild fires or shred souls with their magic--they've never wanted to develop in that direction.  Magic simply isn't tapped for its great warfare capabilities.  Magic's roof is higher than tech's, I grant you, but one has been progressing and the other hasn't.

Maybe think of it like D&D Martials v Casters.  Casters (Elf\Halmons with an Elf-ish understanding of their magic) are stuck playing with cantrips and some nature\sex magick whereas the Martials (Humans) have all been gaining eXP and phat lewt.

AndyZ also makes some good points, although I don't want to comment to heavily on the nature of magic or/And the spread of magical spells between casters.

And to what extent have humans domesticated halmon? Are there monsters who have basically been bred into captivity for generations?

I've right now tentatively got not!HRE breeding ride-able Centaur-ish and similar "mountable" monsterboys\girls as Destriders for use by Knights.  They have a system of

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide

forced cannibalism

, selective breeding, extensive training, and good mount-rider partnering to make this highly effective and prevent 'defections' back to their natural Halmon existence.

Generations?  For the rather short lived sure.  For the longer lived?  Hmmm.  Would need Karma's ruling there, Humans have been here long enough to set up shoppe but not long enough to suss out everything formerly unknown\map the whole place\tread all the land there is to be trod, is the general sense I'm getting, so if there are they'd probably be first-contact coastal races.

[wander]

About technology reinforcing the laws of physics, the Sons of Ether and Virtual Adepts from Mage:the Ascencion would say otherwise. ;)

[Drake Valentine]

Fine, I will just keep all opinions to myself.  ::)

[wigglebiscuit]

I've been following this thread since its inception, and while I realize that a lot of posts have been focused on explaining the situation from a human perspective, I am failing to see what the thrust of it all is.

In other words, what is the 'typical' plot arc or scene? In D&D, for example, it is 'kill monsters and take their stuff.'

What I am getting from this thread is that the thrust of this game is 'meet monstergirls and eat them/fuck them to death. Before anyone points it out, I know that vore scenes will be consensual, but if the point of the game is to butcher monstergirls and rape them to death, that's kinda a moot point.

So, I can't communicate with humans, I don't have any civilization to speak of, and my outlook is pretty grim. Why would I want to make a character for this game?

Before you get snippy with me, please remember that I am interested in this game, I just don't understand the larger picture.

[Karma]

That will be part of the concept post when I can find time to complete it, but initially it's a scenario game. You have fairly free reign on what you want to play and the setting allows it to be as dark as you like. We have already left a few doors open on how the status quo can change in the long run but the direction that goes will be decided as the game is played. Just because there's no cities doesn't mean there's no society, though. The elves will have their part to play as well. If the setting doesn't start in a bad situation then there's no conflict, you know?

[EdwardShane]

It's that concept of that there's always hope that things might get better.  The halmon just gotta work hard for it, and potentially spill some blood among other actions.  At least that's what I'm getting.

I also know what I may wanna play now, in terms of monster species.  (hellhound girl)  Just unsure of how to build her character sheet just yet, much less figure out her history and what all she fully can and can't do as of the start....and well, just her general character overall.  It'll come to me as I make the sheet, I'm sure.

[Jezabelle]

So, I can't communicate with humans, I don't have any civilization to speak of, and my outlook is pretty grim. Why would I want to make a character for this game?

Think of the humans as an existential threat to drive together family-based a-civilized groups who are unique monstergirls\boys.  If in captivity, death isn't all there is--getting milked, being trained to ride, or used as a beast of burden are all possibilities.  There's also the chance you get fucked by humans cause let's be real here, there be perverts yo, even if they think of you as animals they may still wanna ride your dick\put a dick in ya.

Imagine an idyllic monstergirl\boy ecosystem of fun and frolicking with dark tales of some strange proto-Elves who wield no magic but come in huge numbers to hunt and capture.

[wander]

I'll be dropping my interest, it's pretty clear this kind of game won't be for me.