(WoW) Why the Alliance Hate and Why is the Horde so Popular?

[Anjasa]

I know most people don't mean it as an insult :) I don't take offence, I just feel it minimizes female presence in gaming culture to perpetrate the stereotype. Apparently 40% of WoW Subscribers are females (according to http://www.wired.com/geekdad/2011/07/open-letter-to-dc-comics-part-3-marketing-fail-or-why-not-go-after-truly-new-readers/ )

[Black Howling]

I know most people don't mean it as an insult :) I don't take offence, I just feel it minimizes female presence in gaming culture to perpetrate the stereotype. Apparently 40% of WoW Subscribers are females (according to http://www.wired.com/geekdad/2011/07/open-letter-to-dc-comics-part-3-marketing-fail-or-why-not-go-after-truly-new-readers/ )

I'd say roughly 40-50% of all gamers are female. I know tons, and never really think about that way since it's just as likely to be the other way around from my point of view. The MMORPG joke could easily be seen as everyone playing the opposite gender, which is more how I meant it. Though I'm not all that believing in gender disparities these days, based off my first hand experience. Though totally different topic.

[Saerrael]

[Offtopic]

One of our guildtanks is a female who plays a male character. (Her boyfriend/ husband plays a female, by the way.)
I actually know a few females who play males, and visa versa.

[/Offtopic]

[effervescent]

I think it's funny when I play games they are like OMG you are female, females don't play games! I'm like are you serious? I am always running into females in games, these guys are on drugs or just think that we all have penises or something. I don't even know! lol

[Callie Del Noire]

hmm..let's see..

I'd say that about half the guild leadership is female and it's almost an even split between male/female down the line, though we have a little drift as folks come and go.

[LunarSage]

People who think females don't play MMOs are probably time travelers from 1999 when this belief was more accurate.  Nowadays?  Not so much.

[Samael]

Personally I was just so goddamn tired of playing humans.
You play humans in every RPG. It's either Humans, or Elves, or Dwarves. And I just had enough of em.
So, the first time I started to play WoW? I went and made a Tauren Druid and an Orc Hunter. Never regretted it.

Then took a break, came back, years later, with my girlfriend, and we were invited to join a friend on his server (Alliance, go figure).
We got our characters up, Paladin Tank for me, Disc Priest for her, and joined a guild.
One of the best Guilds on the server.

I hated it.
The people in there were elitist assholes who constantly only ragged on their pugs, and on random people.
It annoyed me to no end.

We rerolled on Horde side, and it was... once again, magnificent.
People are more relaxed, seemed more at ease and having a good time playing and raiding.

Hell, the difference was plain even in the Guild Ads they posted into Trade all the time.
Alliance side had all: "Running Endgame content, need you to have x level of gear before you can join."
Horde side had: "Running Endgame content, everyone welcome, social players and raiders alike."
The whole atmosphere was so much more friendly.

I rolled up a Blood Elf Paladin (although I regretted that I didn't make him a Tauren), until we stopped playing a few months ago.

Also, the whole "Blood and Thunder" is seriously more appealing to me than "For Gnomeregan".

[Callie Del Noire]

Hell, the difference was plain even in the Guild Ads they posted into Trade all the time.
Alliance side had all: "Running Endgame content, need you to have x level of gear before you can join."
Horde side had: "Running Endgame content, everyone welcome, social players and raiders alike."
The whole atmosphere was so much more friendly.

I rolled up a Blood Elf Paladin (although I regretted that I didn't make him a Tauren), until we stopped playing a few months ago.

Also, the whole "Blood and Thunder" is seriously more appealing to me than "For Gnomeregan".

I got the opposite. And I have done an 'elite raiding' guild. It only exacerbated the onset of my bipolar problems. So, I got booted after a near breakdown during a raid. (To this day the guild leader and half my 'friends' won't even acknowledge me. I have dropped out of raids that we teamed up with the guild to keep the rest of the guild from getting boned. Me doing that killed that alliance and the guild was happier about it, though we lost one of our best members after the other officers came to that decision. They told UR (my old guild) 'play with him or don't play with us').

Now we're still trying to be the beginning bosses of Cataclysm and enjoying things better. :D

[Anjasa]

I think it largely depends on the server, and which 'culture' the faction on that server produces and maintains. There are crappy hard core raiding guilds and awesome casual raiding guilds on every server, on every faction, it just depends on where they flourish that they become pronounced.

[Callie Del Noire]

I think it largely depends on the server, and which 'culture' the faction on that server produces and maintains. There are crappy hard core raiding guilds and awesome casual raiding guilds on every server, on every faction, it just depends on where they flourish that they become pronounced.

True true.. UR was a mistake to join. I see that now.. and I think that had I been a bit more alert the way I reacted to a bloody game back then might have pointed out my emerging issues. (I was an emerging bipolar.. and it wound up costing me the rest of my navy career.. if I spotted it back then I might have managed it better )

[Anjasa]

True true.. UR was a mistake to join. I see that now.. and I think that had I been a bit more alert the way I reacted to a bloody game back then might have pointed out my emerging issues. (I was an emerging bipolar.. and it wound up costing me the rest of my navy career.. if I spotted it back then I might have managed it better )

It's a real shame. I've always hated the hardcore raiding guilds because the majority of the time I've found the people don't even like one another and treat one another as if everyone else was subhuman. I ran a guild with Jumwa for 4.5 years, and we were a heavy RP guild that also raided and did PVE/PVP stuff, and we prided ourselves on treating one another with a high degree of respect. I've made friends through WoW that have remained past most of us quitting WoW and is the main reason we decided to start the Pathforgers forums - so that we could keep in touch post WoW. We're friends, first and foremost, and that's what I look for in games.

If I want high stress and 40 hour work weeks, which is what raiding can very easily become, I'd just as soon get another paying job. I know some people who have literally raided 20-40 hours a week, especially when new content comes out, and they were so stressed and depressed by the end of it that once they got content down they would literally stop playing until new content was released.

I don't want that from a game - but I accept that other people do and that's why these guilds thrive on some servers. On others, though, people are more laid back and interested in friendships, so the super hardcore guilds just can't recruit there.

Same with the alliance/horde divide. If a guild can't find the members they want or need on a certain faction, they may find the other faction to be more in line with their goals and provide them with more members that can fulfill those goals, whatever they may be.

[Braioch]

I started off with Horde, and I'll be honest, because the Horde looks cooler and the Alliance seemed so...golden boy goody goody, blech! :P

Of course I learned that the mythology of the Alliance actually made them quite....well assholes, as much as the Horde was opportunistic and at times, ruthless, the Alliance was haughty and ruthless. So down to the mythology, neither one really matters.

Admittedly Horde is 'darker' in appearance, but they are not evil.

Come on Taurens! They're notably peaceful for the most part...and fuzzy!

Anyways, I also only played Horde because that was what my friends were on and I really didn't want to get my ass handed to me and not have my friends around to have it happen with me. xD That and I love the Blood Elves and Taurens, they come out looking awesome.

On my server, I've found the Alliance can be jackasses at times, but so are the Horde and it really comes down to whether or not the player is a jerk. I'm as helpful as I can be to people when they need it and I ignore the trolls, for they are plenty and do not need the extra feeding.

Heh, Blood Elf Warlock who just so happens to be friendly and helpful, deal with that America ;D

[LunarSage]

Admittedly Horde is 'darker' in appearance, but they are not evil.

Come on Taurens! They're notably peaceful for the most part...and fuzzy!

Note what I said earlier.  :P

The only race in the Horde who gets a pass in my book are the Tauren.

[Braioch]

Didn't know the rest needed a pass from you :P

And really, there's not a whole lot wrong with Blood Elves, sure they don't really like other races that much and they have that whole magic addiction thing, but that hardly constitutes 'evil.'

[LunarSage]

They do!  I am god!  Or is that dog?  I get those words mixed up sometimes...  >.>

Seriously though, my main point is the Forsaken are evil.  No question in my mind.  They want to wipe out all life on Azeroth. 

If it weren't for Wrynn and Sylvanus we probably would have had peace long ago, realistically.

[Saerrael]

Didn't know the rest needed a pass from you :P

And really, there's not a whole lot wrong with Blood Elves, sure they don't really like other races that much and they have that whole magic addiction thing, but that hardly constitutes 'evil.'

Ehm, they also suppress their own people.

'Happiness is mandatory, citizen.'

Not that I mind. I find it fitting the race and its lore.

[Braioch]

Eh, Lawful Neutral ;D

[CmdrRenegade]

They do!  I am god!  Or is that dog?  I get those words mixed up sometimes...  >.>

Seriously though, my main point is the Forsaken are evil.  No question in my mind.  They want to wipe out all life on Azeroth. 

If it weren't for Wrynn and Sylvanus we probably would have had peace long ago, realistically.

I find it hard to call the Forsaken evil as a whole.  They didn't ask for what happened to them and now they're fighting for survival in a world that sees them as an abomination for merely wanting to continue to exist.  The Horde have an uneasy relationship with them but understand the whole 'being enslaved and outcast' thing all too well.

[LunarSage]

Fair enough, but you can't tell me Sylvanus isn't evil.  Not to mention the Forsaken quest chains have you doing some pretty evil stuff, all in her name.

[Shjade]

Your description of the Forsaken more or less holds water up through LK, Renegade.

Post-Cata Forsaken? Evil as fuck. Just go out to Hillsbrad for all the evidence needed.

[Anjasa]

It all seems rather pragmatic to me, Sylvanas' decisions. Her 'race' is dying out. Garrosh has re-ignited the war on the alliance, along with Varion. The morally grey decision comes in that she's raising the humans she kills as her forces, and I admit she's treading the line that the Lich King walked, but she knows that Garrosh has the power to wipe her entire race out if he so chooses, so she's acting out of desperation.

I understand everyone is clambering to put these labels of 'good' and 'evil' on the different races, but the problem is that good and evil is so highly subjective (i.e. is Tyranny and running a police state 'evil'?). All races have the capacity to commit good deeds and bad deeds. The humans and the orcs have both faced corruption, people from all races have made bad and desperate decisions in desperate times.

Even Arthas didn't consider what he was doing evil - he was culling Stratholm for the GREATER GOOD. These people WERE corrupted, and they WOULD be turned into mindless scourge, and he was trying to prevent this in a very morally grey manner.

And that's what I love. The moral grey.

The draenei, even, have those that chose corruption, chose power, chose the legion and became the eredar, lead by one of the most dangerous threats that came to Azeroth. Meanwhile both the horde and the alliance fought at Hyjal, uniting against the legion.

Arguably all capacity for good and evil is dictated by the gods and devils of WoW - even the capture of M'uru by the Blood Elves was a plot by the Naaru, and it was intended all along by the gods. Meanwhile most corruption within the last century has been because of the Legion's presence and interest in Azeroth. Of the biggest 'baddies' in WoW, many have been Alliance (Hyjal (Archimond was once draenei), Onyxia posed as a human, Karazhan was Medihv's castle, Naxxramas held many high elves and humans, Icecrown Citadel (Arthas was a human), The Black Temple (lead by Illidan).

The Defias brotherhood, for instance, which is the humans that the King has asked you killed were union workers that rebuilt Stormwind after the First War. The King decided not to pay them, however, saying they thought it was being rebuilt because of their civic pride and, when they tried to get payment, they were exiled from the city.

Stormwind also has you go into their prisons and kill the prisoners there, including some that were petty criminals and the like.

The Night elves, generally thought to be one of the most purely good races also have their faults - they lead to the birth of the worgen, they regrew the World Tree in a desperate bid to recapture their lost immortality without the blessing of Alexstrasza or Nozdormu, and the High Bourne Night Elves were the ones that initially drew the attention of the Burning Legion to Azeroth and lead to the Sundering.

The Horde races, as well, have capacity for great evil, of course. The Tauren, even, have the Grimtotem Tribe, a sect of tauren bent on irradiation of 'lesser races'.

So, yea, TL;dr - All races of Azeroth have the capacity for good and evil, and all have examples of people acting in a 'good' and 'evil' manner. Most people who do act in an evil manner are doing it with good intentions (saving their race from extinction, like Kael'thalas, Sylvanas, Greymane, Arthas, etc.) or because they were being controlled and manipulated by the legion (Ner'zhul, Medivh).

[LunarSage]

I dunno.  "Death to the living" (the Forsaken's catchphrase) seems less morally grey and more unbelievably evil to me.  Genocide is not morally grey.  It's evil with a capital E.

[TheGlyphstone]

Yeah, there's not even any ambiguity in-game anymore that Sylvanas and the Forsaken are evil, horrible people....if Garrosh, of all people, can see the truth, it's pretty obvious. The whole Wrathgate Plague thing that decimated both sids' forces? That wasn't a renegade project by the Chief Apothecary, that was a project driven and sponsored by Sylvanas herself (as evidenced by the many quests leading up to it) that the Apothecary went rogue with and used prematurely. Really, what good reason could exist for the Royal Apothecary society to be developing a plague that would exerminate undead and living equally efficiently if they didn't intend to...use it to kill people?

Every other race has its bad apples, sure - but the Forsaken are the only ones who don't have any good apples.

[Anjasa]

Really, what good reason could exist for the Royal Apothecary society to be developing a plague that would exerminate undead and living equally efficiently if they didn't intend to...use it to kill people?

Well, right. And killing is wrong, certainly, but they're using it in war. Putricide had help from Sylvanas, but as I recall, it was under the guise of using it to kill humans - their enemies.

We have to remember, when looking at Warcraft, that we the players are asked to do terrible, horrible things for gold. I mean, we were asked to wipe out the Amani for 'the shinies', and some quests have us decapitate people (thieves and mercenaries, for instance) just for disagreeing with the quest giver. The players are, arguably, evil, just by virtue of doing most of the quests. As a note of interest, here is a link of all the 'head' quests you can get.

I agree that the forsaken are, in large part, sociopathic and evil, but so are most of the quests. I mean, anyone who did the quests in Venomspite helped the forsaken to hatch their plot, no matter what race they were. I understand that players /= lore, but still.

I never played the alliance for very long but I know there were quests I couldn't really have my character do because, well, the alliance was asked to do some pretty terrible things as well in quests. I just can't think of any off the top of my head at the moment.

If we're comparing Warcraft to our own standards of morality (such as, in real life, I feel that killing is always wrong, however in Warcraft there are beings of undeniable chaos and evil that seek to eradicate all life which I would be (more) okay with killing) then we're missing a lot of the things that make Warcraft different from our own world, such as beings of undeniable good and evil that seek to corrupt and help, meddling in the affairs of sentient beings.

Would you say 'all humans are evil because humans have used mustard gas in times of war'? I mean, mustard gas was created to kill, but I wouldn't say that the creation or use delegates all humans to 'evil' status. Same with, say, nuclear weapons and napalm and guns, etc. Humans in our world vary on the spectrum, and I don't feel that any sentient race in WoW can really be defined one way or another, unless you're looking at the legion troops/demons.

As for 'no good apples' in the forsaken, I'm not certain on this. There's lots of forsaken who seem to want nothing more than to live a normal life - say, the ones that run the inn in brill, or food and crafting vendors. Sure they don't have a huge and important role, but they're certainly not going out and killing everyone. They were corrupted by unspeakable evil power, but they revolted, and some are bitter and vengeful, but others seem to just be trying to make the best of a bad situation. Sylvanas, as well, helped to kill the Lich King whom was a much bigger threat than herself, and though she did it out of a need for vengeance, she still did something 'good' for the world.

[Aiden]

Working as intended!