Hate crime discussion [Split from News thread]

Started by Tolvo, November 08, 2018, 07:25:59 PM

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la dame en noir

Quote from: Scribbles on November 09, 2018, 02:45:26 PM
“Yikes” is pretty much my reaction when you implied white nationalism has any relevance in South Africa today and, like the supposed “white genocide,” it’s a dangerous narrative to spread. Countries like South Africa end up hurting overall when such exaggerations start trending internationally.
Yikes is my reaction to assumptions.
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Scribbles

Quote from: la dame en noir on November 09, 2018, 02:51:10 PM
Yikes is my reaction to assumptions.

No assumptions here. Here's a direct quote from your earlier post.

QuoteWhite genocide isn't happening. It's the same as them saying having mixed children is white genocide.

What is happening is that there are white nationalist groups in SA committing crimes and groups that run drills in case black folks come knocking down their doors.

White genocide isn't happening but white nationalism is. That's not exactly open to multiple interpretations.
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la dame en noir

Quote from: Scribbles on November 09, 2018, 02:55:15 PM
No assumptions here. Here's a direct quote from your earlier post.

White genocide isn't happening but white nationalism is. That's not exactly open to multiple interpretations.
You made assumptions.

White genocide is a fear tactic white nationalists use to scare them into think POC are going to be their downfall. It's that same fear that a very small percentage(that you've mentioned) have used in places were white is either the minority or is the majority - but fear losing power. There are black extremist groups that do the same thing. Hell - there are nationalists and extremists in every culture and ethnic group.

I'm not agreeing with this at all. I'm simply saying what is and has happened.

Just when I thought it was baffling that black kids in South Africa were being expelled for having braids or natural hair.
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la dame en noir

Quote from: la dame en noir on November 09, 2018, 02:59:43 PM
You made assumptions.

White genocide is a fear tactic white nationalists use to scare them into think POC will be their downfall. It's that same fear that a very small percentage(that you've mentioned) have used in places were white is either the minority or is the majority - but fear losing power. There are black extremist groups that do the same thing. Hell - there are nationalists and extremists in every culture and ethnic group.

I'm not agreeing with this at all. I'm simply saying what is and has happened.

Just when I thought it was baffling that black kids in South Africa were being expelled for having braids or natural hair.
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la dame en noir

whoops!! I was trying to make a correction to my terrible grammar.
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Lustful Bride

Come on everyone lets not argue. I think part of the issue is that while there is no white genocide , there have actually been more attacks that look specifically at targetting white farmers and a few politicians who use a more violent rhetoric in regards to whites. It was to the point i remember hearing about it on an Israeli English language News station. (Family bought a pack to get international news on our cable and it came with the Israel Today, Al JAzheera and Russia today).

While that's not the majority of people and its not a real genocide, White Supremacists take hold of those stories and hold them up to go "You see? You thought we were wrong, but its happening!". They make a dozen scattered events look like a hundred and as part of some evil antiwhite plan to scare people into following their line of thinking.

Tolvo

Quote from: Scribbles on November 09, 2018, 01:52:31 PM

Just to stay on topic, I agree with Icelandic and Lustful Bride, mostly because I prefer the idea that everyone should be treated equally under the law. If someone is the target of a hate crime and you start adding caveats such as whether they're part of the majority and so on, then you have to ask to what extent you're going to push it and how much more difficult it's going to be to enforce such laws. I can see such a route spiralling into more bureaucracy and less help for those who the law was meant to benefit. Anyway, I know little of this situation so I won't add anything beyond that admittedly simplistic opinion...

A problem is everyone already isn't treated equally by others or even by the law. And there are definitely limits. You usually use umbrellas for the groups that are marginalized. Not comparing the rates at which violence against schizophrenic people happens compared to autistic people. Applying the resources required to everyone and including every group ever will add more bureaucracy and make them harder to prosecute while also likely privileging those with power. Reminder that it was very recent that a white gunman killed two black people in public. The white witness he spared claimed that the gunman told him he spared him because "Whites don't kill whites." This was not considered a hate crime by the police. Depending on where you live in the country you may live in a Blue Lives Matter bill state, these bills in reference to their animosity towards black people. They include the police as well as firefighters as protected class in regards to hate crimes. And use them like a bludgeon. Not to say there is never violence against the police, but these laws are then enforced by the police that these laws give added protections to. People with a ton of power who are known for abusing it. It's very worrying.

la dame en noir

Quote from: Lustful Bride on November 09, 2018, 03:13:29 PM
Come on everyone lets not argue. I think part of the issue is that while there is no white genocide , there have actually been more attacks that look specifically at targetting white farmers and a few politicians who use a more violent rhetoric in regards to whites. It was to the point i remember hearing about it on an Israeli English language News station. (Family bought a pack to get international news on our cable and it came with the Israel Today, Al JAzheera and Russia today).

While that's not the majority of people and its not a real genocide, White Supremacists take hold of those stories and hold them up to go "You see? You thought we were wrong, but its happening!". They make a dozen scattered events look like a hundred and as part of some evil antiwhite plan to scare people into following their line of thinking.
Good ol fear tactics. Just let over here (America), whenever there is a case of a mass shooting - they immediately try to frame a middle eastern individual or lose it when it is and want to scare everyone.
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Scribbles

Quote from: la dame en noir on November 09, 2018, 02:59:43 PM
You made assumptions.

I did not. You stated that white nationalism is a thing. You specifically said that white genocide isn't happening but white nationalism is. It isn't, I showed it isn't and you countered with "Yikes". It doesn't matter how small the white population is, they aren't all running to the nationalists, it's just as much a myth as white genocide. If it's a tactic against POC, then it's obviously not working.

QuoteI'm not agreeing with this at all. I'm simply saying what is and has happened.

You said it's "happening", present tense. Anyway, you can't exactly edit for mistakes so I'll take your word for it that this isn't what you meant and apologise.

This is getting way off topic, sorry everyone.
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la dame en noir

Quote from: Tolvo on November 09, 2018, 03:16:04 PM
A problem is everyone already isn't treated equally by others or even by the law. And there are definitely limits. You usually use umbrellas for the groups that are marginalized. Not comparing the rates at which violence against schizophrenic people happens compared to autistic people. Applying the resources required to everyone and including every group ever will add more bureaucracy and make them harder to prosecute while also likely privileging those with power. Reminder that it was very recent that a white gunman killed two black people in public. The white witness he spared claimed that the gunman told him he spared him because "Whites don't kill whites." This was not considered a hate crime by the police. Depending on where you live in the country you may live in a Blue Lives Matter bill state, these bills in reference to their animosity towards black people. They include the police as well as firefighters as protected class in regards to hate crimes. And use them like a bludgeon. Not to say there is never violence against the police, but these laws are then enforced by the police that these laws give added protections to. People with a ton of power who are known for abusing it. It's very worrying.

Oh wow - I did not know this. D:
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la dame en noir

Quote from: Scribbles on November 09, 2018, 03:18:22 PM
I did not. You stated that white nationalism is a thing. You specifically said that white genocide isn't happening but white nationalism is. It isn't, I showed it isn't and you countered with "Yikes". It doesn't matter how small the white population is, they aren't all running to the nationalists, it's just as much a myth as white genocide. If it's a tactic against POC, then it's obviously not working.

It's not "working" on a lot of people - because fortunately, there are humans out there that see the bigger picture.

But White nationalism is a thing. But maybe we're not understanding eachother and I will let that be. I think, like many, see words that mean "all" and assume I really am talking about every living breathing white person on this planet.
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Tolvo

https://thinkprogress.org/i-was-at-the-protest-outside-tucker-carlsons-house-heres-what-actually-happened-665c2dc0cb67/

Just thought I'd mention new evidence that apparently most of the things Tucker Carlson claimed happened did not. Unless you consider a tambourine to be a deadly weapon. So it is kind of silly we got into a serious discussion over this when the "Hate crime" was a peaceful protest.

HannibalBarca

Just to get this off my chest--the Haitian massacre of 1804 is what you expect from a population degraded and oppressed for centuries, after being kidnapped, tortured, and raised, generation after generation, in abject slavery:

QuoteHenri Christophe's personal secretary, who was a slave for much of his life, said about the treatment of slaves in Saint-Domingue:

Have they not hung up men with heads downward, drowned them in sacks, crucified them on planks, buried them alive, crushed them in mortars? Have they not forced them to consume faeces? And, having flayed them with the lash, have they not cast them alive to be devoured by worms, or onto anthills, or lashed them to stakes in the swamp to be devoured by mosquitoes? Have they not thrown them into boiling cauldrons of cane syrup? Have they not put men and women inside barrels studded with spikes and rolled them down mountainsides into the abyss? Have they not consigned these miserable blacks to man eating-dogs until the latter, sated by human flesh, left the mangled victims to be finished off with bayonet and poniard?

Much like the atrocities committed in the wake of the French Revolution (aptly named the Reign of Terror), an oppressed population, prevented from being educated and humanized, will react in a backlash of equivalent or greater violence on their oppressors.  This is not a condoning of the actions, but a mere recognition of human nature.  You hold someone down long enough and hard enough, and they're going to build up a resentment fierce enough to strip away any consideration of human empathy when they finally get free.  If you don't want to see massacres like those in Haiti in 1804, you have to not enslave, torture, and oppress a population for a couple hundred years prior to it.

I often can easily recognize the tacit admission of horrible behavior by white nationalists, in their fear of people of color rising up and committing atrocities against them--an 'eye for an eye' expectation, as it were.  I've read books composed of the writings of Southern slave owners, admitting they felt they were destined for Hell, because of their actions towards slaves...and yet, they would not give up those horrific actions, because they wouldn't give up their economic position--not for anything, not even their own consciences.

Hate begets hate.  Expect that, if the oppressor pushes it too far.  It's human nature.

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Tolvo

Maybe we should contact a mod about making a new thread for the subject. Maybe about power structures, or political violence? It's kind of veered off into very complex topics and encompass a lot of different things. Or examining violence between groups and public perception of why slaves overturning their masters or communists overthrowing the ruling class are seen as more morally wrong than the American Revolution for example.

Icelandic

Quote from: HannibalBarca on November 10, 2018, 12:58:20 AM
Just to get this off my chest--the Haitian massacre of 1804 is what you expect from a population degraded and oppressed for centuries, after being kidnapped, tortured, and raised, generation after generation, in abject slavery:

Much like the atrocities committed in the wake of the French Revolution (aptly named the Reign of Terror), an oppressed population, prevented from being educated and humanized, will react in a backlash of equivalent or greater violence on their oppressors.  This is not a condoning of the actions, but a mere recognition of human nature.  You hold someone down long enough and hard enough, and they're going to build up a resentment fierce enough to strip away any consideration of human empathy when they finally get free.  If you don't want to see massacres like those in Haiti in 1804, you have to not enslave, torture, and oppress a population for a couple hundred years prior to it.

I often can easily recognize the tacit admission of horrible behavior by white nationalists, in their fear of people of color rising up and committing atrocities against them--an 'eye for an eye' expectation, as it were.  I've read books composed of the writings of Southern slave owners, admitting they felt they were destined for Hell, because of their actions towards slaves...and yet, they would not give up those horrific actions, because they wouldn't give up their economic position--not for anything, not even their own consciences.

Hate begets hate.  Expect that, if the oppressor pushes it too far.  It's human nature.

Yea no. I have no problem admitting that hate begets hate, and while you do claim that you are not justifying those kinds of actions. Keep in mind that even the white allies to the slaves in Haiti were slaughtered, along with their children. The slave uprising in Haiti also poisoned the waters in regards to the conversation on slaves in the US, as many were now afraid that the same would happen to them, even white allies.

This entire thing reads as a "Yea I'm not justifying it, but here is why it's justified". Also, that quote you mentioned recounted what the revolting slaves did to the remaining white population in Haiti, not the other way around. I really hope you are just not aware of that, rather then it being for some other purpose.

Quote from: Tolvo on November 10, 2018, 01:14:28 AM
Maybe we should contact a mod about making a new thread for the subject. Maybe about power structures, or political violence? It's kind of veered off into very complex topics and encompass a lot of different things. Or examining violence between groups and public perception of why slaves overturning their masters or communists overthrowing the ruling class are seen as more morally wrong than the American Revolution for example.

I'm legit curious as to how many offshoots of offshoots these kinda threads have produced? Like this one is from the news thread, but is there threads that are like, 'this one is from here, which is from here, which is from here, which is from here' kinda deal? (Definitely up for talking about that last point of yours too to be honest.)



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Tolvo

Well it kind of makes sense when people decide to talk about another subject. We don't have a general political discussion thread, which I could see why not because that could be even messier than this and be harder to follow if you have people talking past each other while multiple conversations about different topics are happening.

Icelandic

Oh, correction to HannibalBarca. That quote was indeed a recount of the actions of Charles Leclerc, a French general sent to put down the slave revolt. My bad. The rest of my point still stands though.

Quote from: Tolvo on November 10, 2018, 02:14:34 AM
Well it kind of makes sense when people decide to talk about another subject. We don't have a general political discussion thread, which I could see why not because that could be even messier than this and be harder to follow if you have people talking past each other while multiple conversations about different topics are happening.

I really wanna ask a mod of this section about that offshoot inception thing.
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Tolvo

So back on hate crimes, I'd actually like to bring up the whole concept of everyone being equal in the eyes of the law and people being protected based on what constitutes as crimes.

So I ask you, if someone who is cis found out another person was trans and murdered them for it, is this a hate crime?

The answer in the USA is, in two states it might be considered it.

See only in two states is that actually considered murder, California and Illinois. They have laws against the Trans Panic Defense. But the other states don't have this. In fact it is commonly considered that said killing is actually a form of self defense.

In those states the legislation actually doesn't consider us to have the same fundamental rights as others and that the bigotry against us is so ingrained that people who act on it can't be blamed.

And even in those two states where that is considered a murder, that doesn't mean the person will be prosecuted for having done a hate crime. Because that can actually be hard to prove unless the person outright states that. And while Trans Panic can't defend against a murder charge it can still defend against it as a hate crime. This is on top of the police across the country's long history of oppressing and hating trans people and mistreating them very openly, still to this day, and that even the FBI doesn't really care about us. Is the idea of hate crime laws applying to us giving us rights that the "Poor cis folk" don't have then?

Icelandic

Are you asking me?

I would definitely consider violence against trans people to be a hate crime.

I'm not sure what the 'poor cis folk' comment is about. I'm not saying Cis people are 'oppressed' by any means. I'm simply saying that it's unreasonable to strip hate crime defenses for people who society has deemed as 'not needing it'.

I used my examples about Cis women and Hispanics, who experience relatively little compared to other forms of hate crime. Just because it's more rare, does not mean that they do not deserve equal protection under the law.

I want to see hate crime protections expanded for everyone, not reduced for anyone. I'm genuinely not sure why this is contentious.

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Tolvo

The point is again which one has the power.

So legally we extend these hate crime protections to cis people as well. If they are killed for being cis and it is considered murder then it can be considered a hate crime.

So you then legally recognize hate crimes happen to trans women, but then can't prosecute because murder of them doesn't count in much of the country.

That would mean cis people are protected, while trans people are actually not.

I also would not really say that crimes against women for being women are rare in the slightest. Nor would I say that for Hispanics either. On top of that again, they are marginalized.

In essence I don't believe we should privilege groups further over those that are marginalized in a system and society that is already incredibly unfair towards those groups.

Icelandic

Quote from: Tolvo on November 10, 2018, 04:59:54 AM
So legally we extend these hate crime protections to cis people as well. If they are killed for being cis and it is considered murder then it can be considered a hate crime.
Gender Identity is recognized as something that hate crimes can be committed against, so in theory, cis people already have as much protections as trans. (This is going only going by FBI crime stats so it only counts as reports for as far as I can tell.) So currently, cis people are as protected as trans people, which is likely not much. And again, I'm not going all "muh poor cis" like you seem to enjoy accusing me of.

Quote from: Tolvo on November 10, 2018, 04:59:54 AM
I also would not really say that crimes against women for being women are rare in the slightest. Nor would I say that for Hispanics either. On top of that again, they are marginalized.
7,615 hate crimes were reported and collected by the FBI in 2016 (per like I provided earlier). Of which, only 26 anti-female hate crimes were reported and for Latinos, they only amount to 10% of the ethnic/racial/ancestry motivated hate crimes, compared for 20% whites and 50% blacks.

I'm not debating this topic because it is an object fact, unless you believe in 'Muh white supremacist deep state'.

Quote from: Tolvo on November 10, 2018, 04:59:54 AM
In essence I don't believe we should privilege groups further over those that are marginalized in a system and society that is already incredibly unfair towards those groups.

I agree. Fortunately I am not advocating for that.
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Tolvo

Except, cis people in the country actually are protected more by said idea. Because if you murder them it is definitely a crime that will be reported, which isn't true of murdering a trans person.

So your numbers make absolutely no sense. You believe that in that year, there were 26 crimes in the whole country against women on the basis of them being women? You actually believe that?

And the amount of hate crimes against Hispanic people yet again is obfuscating the idea. The concept is how many of them within their own group are being harmed in hate crimes, not compared to a larger population or the general populace. Because otherwise that means that just the largest group of people always are who need more protecting, because there's more of them, which is the opposite of how this works.

Also are you seriously debating the idea of white supremacists existing within our government, when Donald Trump is president?! You're being quite ludicrous and seem to want to avoid any idea even of minorities and marginalized groups having the same rights and value as the majority and the powerful.

When you stop advocating for privileging those with power already I will believe you on that statement.

Icelandic

Ooooooooooooooooook yea this is gunna be a big nope for me.

You believe that equal protection under the law is not equal protection under the law.

You believe that the FBI's numbers, gathered a year before Trump came into office, is totally fake because of some sort of conspiracy theory that has white nationalists in power yet no ethnostate even exists like what literally every genuine white nationalist actually wants.

You think that me explicitly wanting equality for all is not wanting that.

And as a side note, you blatantly deny historical fact as propaganda.



I've been trying to be nice to you, but literally every other word out of your mouth has been doublespeak. I'm fine with you simply disagreeing, but even in me being as clear as I possibly can, you simply are not comprehending what I am saying. I dunno how you got to this point of refusing any and all new information. But this whole 'War Is Peace, Freedom Is Slavery, and Ignorance Is Strength' thing is honestly very depressing to see first-hand.

Also, don't go off and complain about me being harsh with you. You said I was spreading Nazi propaganda.
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Tolvo

So I bring up Trump because that is currently who is in power. I think racism was still a problem when Obama was president, but it is more so now.

There are a lot of white nationalists who don't want ethnostates, though that is the ultimate goal of many of them to create white only states and purge who they don't like.

I question the numbers of a group that has actively been hostile to these groups in the past, in very recent memory, and to this day. You think it is a conspiracy theory to claim that there are racist systemic issues in a government that is yet again with Trump at the head and many people supporting him and his ideas.

You don't actually want equality for all it seems, you appear more to want to defend the system and those in power.

I can't think of any historical facts I've claimed was propaganda either?

Yes, you did use a Neo Nazi conspiracy theory so I pointed it out. I'm not trying to be harsh on you, but your views really do concern me because they seem to come from a place as valuing the lives of those in power over those they marginalize and oppress while using the talking points and conspiracy theories of white nationalists. It deeply concerns me.