Charlottesville

[Lustful Bride]

Tensions at an all time high in Charlottesville Virginia where protests between Alt right, KKK, BLM, and other groups over the removal of an old confederate statue threaten to turn violent. Members on all sides are seen carrying sticks, batons, homemade shields, and a few even carrying firearms. Though the white nationalists seem to be the ones brandishing the most weapons and in an antagonistic fashion. 

Riot police and state police have been deployed and the National Guard is on standby.


http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/violent-clashes-between-white-nationalists-and-counterprotesters-in-charlottesville/ar-AApUdhF?li=BBnb4R7&ocid=HPCOMMDHP15

I feel bad for the cops. No matter what happens they are in the thick of it.

in my opinion the National Guard should already be deploying, not waiting for the chaos to erupt.

[HairyHeretic]

Apparently at least 1 car deliberately drove into the people protesting the march. Reports say 1 dead and a bunch injured.

[White Wolf]

There are already people taking to every corner of social media to decry the "idiot" counter-demonstrators while defending the rights of the White Nationalists to gather and protest.

I just...How in the name of Christ have we arrived at a point in the political evolution of Western civilisation where there is a "debate" to be had about the validity of Nazism? Didn't people invade Europe with a view to hanging these guys from trees, once upon a time?

Politics has reached such a blistering fever pitch that concepts and ideas that should NEVER be controversial have suddenly become battlefields - People with Nazi flags march, and their opponents become the victims of a terrorist attack? Yeah that's controversial now, there's multiple sides to this story.

...Fuck, man.

[Lustful Bride]

There are already people taking to every corner of social media to decry the "idiot" counter-demonstrators while defending the rights of the White Nationalists to gather and protest.

I just...How in the name of Christ have we arrived at a point in the political evolution of Western civilisation where there is a "debate" to be had about the validity of Nazism? Didn't people invade Europe with a view to hanging these guys from trees, once upon a time?

Politics has reached such a blistering fever pitch that concepts and ideas that should NEVER be controversial have suddenly become battlefields - People with Nazi flags march, and their opponents become the victims of a terrorist attack? Yeah that's controversial now, there's multiple sides to this story.

...Fuck, man.

While I don't agree with Nazis, I have to say I understand people's opinion that they have to be allowed to express their views. It sucks but that's how freedom of speech works. It cannot play favorites. Because today it might be banning Nazis, but tomorrow it might be banning anti-war protesters or people protesting an unjust act by the government.

The same freedom that lets them march and spew hate, also gives people the chance to counter protest. It just has to be used responsibly.

Still what happened today was horrible and I pray for those injured and killed. I wish the cops had done more but this honestly says that they were all unprepared for this. Security forces have to get everything right 100% of the time, because when they don't, people die :(

[White Wolf]

While I don't agree with Nazis, I have to say I understand people's opinion that they have to be allowed to express their views. It sucks but that's how freedom of speech works. It cannot play favorites. Because today it might be banning Nazis, but tomorrow it might be banning anti-war protesters or people protesting an unjust act by the government.

The same freedom that lets them march and spew hate, also gives people the chance to counter protest. It just has to be used responsibly.

Still what happened today was horrible and I pray for those injured and killed. I wish the cops had done more but this honestly says that they were all unprepared for this. Security forces have to get everything right 100% of the time, because when they don't, people die :(

But where do you draw the line? Your argument is that the Nazi protest was free speech; but that protest led immediately to an act of terrorism against individuals opposed to that free speech (driving cars into crowds has become the staple of ISIS attacks in Europe; it is, by definition, an act of terrorism).

If that is defended by free speech, can ISIS host similar protests in American and European cities? Both marches lead to the same thing, but the Nazi march is protected by free speech. Why shouldn't the ISIS march be protected too, and allowed to pass unmolested? Both are political views; both lead to acts of terrorism. Let ISIS march, let the Nazis march. Free speech.

...

...I agree with you, that ordinarily, yes, free speech has a wide and unsettling purview. But free speech that incites acts of violence is not protected by law, constitutional or otherwise. If ISIS is not allowed to march - when their tactics are identical to the Nazis who marched today - then the Nazis shouldn't be either. And if people STILL insist that the Nazis SHOULD march, then let's invite ISIS over right now and stand by our values.

[Lustful Bride]

But where do you draw the line? Your argument is that the Nazi protest was free speech; but that protest led immediately to an act of terrorism against individuals opposed to that free speech (driving cars into crowds has become the staple of ISIS attacks in Europe; it is, by definition, an act of terrorism).

If that is defended by free speech, can ISIS host similar protests in American and European cities? Both marches lead to the same thing, but the Nazi march is protected by free speech. Why shouldn't the ISIS march be protected too, and allowed to pass unmolested? Both are political views; both lead to acts of terrorism. Let ISIS march, let the Nazis march. Free speech.

...

...I agree with you, that ordinarily, yes, free speech has a wide and unsettling purview. But free speech that incites acts of violence is not protected by law, constitutional or otherwise. If ISIS is not allowed to march - when their tactics are identical to the Nazis who marched today - then the Nazis shouldn't be either. And if people STILL insist that the Nazis SHOULD march, then let's invite ISIS over right now and stand by our values.

It sucks, I know. Trust me I hate seeing tons of anti American spiel online and in other places, or calls for death and violence. But how can you limit freedom of speech? The truth is you can only do it in certain circumstances such as yelling bomb in an airport or fire in a theatre.

I don't want to say that we should protect Nazis and the scum that are running this country but this is honestly a fine line we are talking about. At what point do we go too far and end up harming everyone? I feel unclean now. Goddamn those Nazis and just aahhh I hate that they put me into this position but I have to bite my hand and state my piece. I hate that i have to feel like the bitch for this but I don't do this cause I love those pieces of walking shit, but I do it because I love the freedoms that this country offers and so many have fought and died for.

Edit: I should likely state I do not defend the vehicle attack. That was an act of terror and I hope whoever did it gets caught by the cops and sent to the harshest pirson possible until they rot of dissintery in their own prison cell.

[White Wolf]

I've heard a (VERY MUCH UNSUBSTANTIATED!) rumour that, frankly, for all I know could be complete and utter fake news designed as nothing more than propaganda...nonetheless it bears mentioning. Some right wing circles are sharing a report saying that the driver in question was, in fact, from the antifa protest and he simply hit the "wrong" rally - i.e. he attempted to drive into the Nazi rally, but made a mistake.

*IF* this is true, this chills me to the fucking bone. This compounds upon the terrorist attack on the Republican baseball practise a month or so ago, when a liberal opened fire on the Congressmen and women who were playing. There is something so disheartening and so sickening about the idea of people feeling threatened and unsafe in their own homes, in their own countries, in the towns they've lived in their whole lives - and that, to me, is what makes Nazi rallies of this time so repugnant and despicable. The thoughts going through the heads of the little black, Muslim, Jewish, what have you, children in Virginia watching this go on. But when something like THIS happens afterwards, *IF* the driver was indeed trying to hit the Nazis, it just compounds the entire issue tenfold. The Nazis are not only going to be entrenched in their belief in oppression by a dogmatic liberal society, but they're almost VINDICATED as the victims of violence who're just carrying out their right to peacefully assemble.

It furthers their cause; and the furtherance of their cause means more children go to bed worried that they're not American, or scared of what might happen to them at school the next day.

And even if the driver wasn't a liberal or antifa member or what have you, if he was a card-carrying member of the KKK whose granddaddy was a proud serving member of the SS, it's already too late. Because that rumour has taken root in the right-wing echo chamber and no matter what evidence may emerge over the coming days, it's never going to be shaken off. So all the effects of that attack, all the entrenching of views and furtherance of causes, that's going to happen now no matter who was in that car.

...What strikes me is, where the fuck does this end? It doesn't end with Trump. This started as far back as Obama, and the Tea Party, but its roots stretch back further to the Civil Rights movement and beyond. It's only ramping up, year on year, presidency on presidency. Where the fuck does it END? Extremists on both sides are so distrustful of the other, partisanship has reached such an unbelievable fever pitch both on the streets and in the halls of Congress, where exactly does it end? What is it all building to?

I don't think that question is being asked enough, and it scares the shit out of me. History, contrary to Francis Fukuyama's wildest dreams, did not end when the Wall came down. And history isn't kind to empires whose populations start to tear themselves apart :/

[Lustful Bride]

I don't even know anymore. I just try to make it day to day and make the world better for everyone I meet as much as I can. Its all most of us can do really. Just try and survive and share as much love as we can.

[Beguile's Mistress]

They were up in the air because of the neo-Nazi/KKK rallies that have be wreaking havoc this week.  Meanwhile, one of that ilk drove a car into a crowd of people holding a counter-demonstration, killing at least one and injuring many more.  The man from Ohio was found and arrested.  The incident is being investigated as a hate crime.

[Sara Nilsson]

http://reverepress.com/news/charlottesville-nazis-getting-fired/

Several people who showed up to scream hatred in Charlottesville have been fired by their bosses :) Good.

[DelightfullyMAD]

I am probably going to be super unpopular for what I am about to post, but to heck with it, I don't care:  The amount of cult-like tribalism and narrow thinking I see on threads like this is staggering.

It is not my intention to insult, but to draw attention.  I find it so very funny that so often we have the self-righteous on either side of the political isle demonize and condemn all others without the slightest sense of irony or shame, all while failing to realize that they are themselves a pure reflection of the very evil they claim to oppose.  Name any case of some right-wing nutcase doing something horrible, such as the KKK or Neo-Nazi or Alt-Right or what have you, and I could easily show a case from the other side, BLM, Antifa, ect. which is just as bad or worse.

Yet isn't interesting that, whenever the side one is opposed to does something horrible, you immediately jump to the instant, easy conclusion of "They're Nazi's, Nazi's are evil, bad, blah blah blah.", but of course when the term Nazi comes to define anyone who is even a sliver to the right of Marx, that becomes a pretty empty statement.  Yet when someone on the other side, your side, does something every bit as bad, as vile, you suddenly try to make excuses.  I see this all the time, from both sides.  Seriously, there are people on this board that would probably have been bending over backwards to justify it if Obama had firebombed an orphanage full of sick children, kittens and puppies.  Because one thing I've learned is that so very many people hold very simplistic views when it comes to their politics, which basically just boils down to "My side, right or wrong."

Now, does this represent everyone?  No, of course not.  But while I will not name names, there are so very many posters here (to be fair, more on the left than right since sites like this tend Left in general) have expressed views that are, frankly, every bit as nasty, rotten, and hateful as the very people they are decrying.  And what amuses and depresses me most is that they don't realize it, they are blind to it.

Learning to recognize, and I mean truly recognize one's own biases has become something of a lost art these days.  Everyone just wants to pick a side, no one wants to actually really think.  No one wants to engage in discussion and discourse, because that might mean realizing that the other side might actually have something of value to say.  Can't have that, that threatens the world view, that threatens to burst the bubble, and the outside world is scary, other opinions are scary, the idea that we are maybe, just maybe, not correct, is scary.  This is ultimately how religions are formed.  This is how cults are formed.  And that's what our politics have become today, not just in the United States, but most of the world.  It's become just a bunch of massive cults, filled with adherents who just condemn the other side as evil, and who look at their own side as righteous and above and beyond any and all reproach, complete with witch hunts, holy wars, and excommunications.

Now, of course, these views of mine may very well land me the labels of Racist, Sexist, Misogynist, Homophobic, Trans-phobic, Islamophobic, Martianphobic, plus any additional -phobics people have concocted to ignore the arguments and positions of others, what have you.  But seriously, people need to grow up.  We look at the world today and we weep at how "Horrible it is!  Worst year ever!  Life has never been so bad!  Humans suck!  White people suck!  Black people suck!  Asian people suck!  Blah blah blah."

The thing is, while certainly not perfect, we are living in better times than just about any other period in history, yet because things are (comparatively) so good, we grow accustomed to it, and thus very minor problems become massive catastrophes because many of us have forgotten, or never even truly known, what hard times truly are.  We have become blind to our own wealth, and while I am certainly not saying that everyone is living the high life, the fact is that, even compared to just a short time ago in historical terms, even our impoverished and truly needy are better taken care of than they have ever been.  Does that mean there isn't room for improvement?  Again, the answer is "Of course not", but to pretend that no progress has been made is not only extremely pessimistic, it's downright false.  Yet now people seem, on both sides, intent on dragging us backwards, on undoing the progress that has been made, and I find that both incredibly sad, yet also morbidly amusing.

Again, I doubt this post will make me popular.  I've done my best to remain civil while still indulging in this little rant of mine, but I just had to say it.  Frankly, people on both sides of the political spectrum should be ashamed of themselves, for their complete inability to not only consider the other side, but to even regard the other side as people not only led to the voting in of Trump (though, let's face it, none of our options last time around were any good, and to pretend any different is just fooling yourself).  Seriously, the next time you are thinking about people from the other side, try and actually catch yourself and count just how many times you call them "Idiots" or "Evil" or "Nazi" or "Commie" or what ever else.  Actually try and recognize just when you are practicing the very bigotry you accuse the other side of engaging in.  If more of us could do that, then maybe we as a whole might actually be able to make real progress.

I'm not holding my breath though...

[Regina Minx]

Yet isn't interesting that, whenever the side one is opposed to does something horrible, you immediately jump to the instant, easy conclusion of "They're Nazi's, Nazi's are evil, bad, blah blah blah.", but of course when the term Nazi comes to define anyone who is even a sliver to the right of Marx, that becomes a pretty empty statement.  Yet when someone on the other side, your side, does something every bit as bad, as vile, you suddenly try to make excuses.  I see this all the time, from both sides.  Seriously, there are people on this board that would probably have been bending over backwards to justify it if Obama had firebombed an orphanage full of sick children, kittens and puppies.  Because one thing I've learned is that so very many people hold very simplistic views when it comes to their politics, which basically just boils down to "My side, right or wrong."

The beautiful thing about logic is that if you start with true premises and use valid argumentation, the conclusion you reach must necessarily be true. If, however, you start with flawed premises and use logical fallacies in constructing your argument, you have a conclusion that you cannot show to be true. I'm not going to dissect your entire post, both because I just don't care to engage in an argument in what is supposed to be a news thread, but also because I don't feel the need to. You're using flawed logic because of your reliance on the tu quoque fallacy. "Both sides do it!" is not a logically valid method of objecting to an argument against a particular position.

Not only is your logic flawed, but your premises are incorrect too. You are saying that the left will simply demonize anyone even slightly right as nazis. OK.






You can't accuse the left of strawmanning their political opposition as being Nazis if the people involved in this latest tragedy in the news are literally. Fucking. Nazis.

[Beguile's Mistress]

‘Evil Attack’ in Virginia Is Domestic Terrorism, Sessions Says

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/14/us/politics/domestic-terrorism-sessions.html?emc=edit_na_20170814&nl=breaking-news&nlid=72754896&ref=cta

[SidheLady]

Before I begin, my thoughts and sympathies go out to the family of the girl who died and anyone who was injured.

It takes one man to throw a punch, it takes two to make a fight.

ANYONE who was violent during this was breaking the law and should be treated as such, reguardless of political idiology.

NO-ONE should be doxxed because they marched in either side, that is a breach of free speach and trying to use fear, loss of personal income.

However, while I've seen the word Nazi in this thread a lot, which, yes, some of them are self-identified Nazi's, however, there have been entire threads on twitter and stuff where people have stated "whites should die, go extinct, etc etc" and there has been absolutely no censure of these threads and words.

I am politically in the centre.

Oh, and while I'm throwing gas on the fire here, Trump's response was right. He called out violence on both sides, and this didn't go far enough for the media because he didn't just go for one side

[Regina Minx]

NO-ONE should be doxxed because they marched in either side, that is a breach of free speach and trying to use fear, loss of personal income.

Specifically referring to those that have been identified and fired because of their presence in Charlotsville, I saw a quote on this issue I quite liked.

"If they had wanted to remain anonymous, they should have worn their robes and hoods."

Most of the people who have been identified and gotten in trouble with their employers were done so because they appeared in the news, in photographs, and proudly identified themselves by name. If you're proud of your participation in an event to the point where you're giving your name to journalists, it no longer becomes a doxxing issue, nor does it threaten free speech concerns if your presence at this event is later demonstrated to your employer.

[la dame en noir]

I had this argument earlier - Anyone who tries to defend hate groups that have been around decades and compares them to BLM that formed to stop police brutality against civilians have me raising an eyebrow so far up onto my forehead, I'm not sure if I can get back down. The KKK has been around for far too damn long and yet the government and police has done shit to dismantle them - yet the black panthers are gone and BLM gets shut down and harassed by the police and government. Peaceful protestors(which were made by a majority of college students) were brutally attacked by those tiki torch holding idiots and the police did not do a goddamn thing to help them.

This is systematic racism right here. This years of systematic racism that POC, women, and LGBTQIA+ people tried to dismantle but everyone had their thumbs in their asses. Now Trump is threatening North Korea and shit like this happening - And his orange ass doesn't give a goddamn.

This was something i posted on FB because it was relevant to a man's rant and he just wasn't getting it. I don't know how relevant it is here - but it was rich white men that are the reason we're in this shitstorm now.

"Just in case we forgot about American history - When the Europeans immigrated to America - they were on the same level as black people. It was when upper class/rich white folks were worried lower class American born white people, immigrated white folks, and black folks would tear down the government because of how they were being treated that the system of "You're better than black people because now you're white" came about.

So you can blame the government for that shit too. America was born and bred on white supremacy. It was rich white folks that come up with racial slurs for poor white people. It was rich white folks that told Irish, Polish, Italian, and Jewish Europeans they weren't white - until they were afraid they were going to get together with black folks. It was rich white folks that created this systematic racism.

It is the job of white people in America - because you all have a privilege which is fine to acknowledge - to break it down and not let these fools run around doing whatever the hell they want. "

[FeveredDreams]

I've done.... some stupid things when I was protesting in my loud angry youth.  I do not support political violence,  messing with cars,  smashing in business windows and going for other people's property to display your rage...  anymore.  I've done a lot to attempt to calm myself down over the years...  and yet,  what I've been seeing from the right on this atrocities is an attempt to spin this monsters action as panic...  self defense.  What scares me most is their inability to say that what this man did was wrong. 

My mind is blown...   I believe a lot of us who lean more liberal would be perfectly willing to admit that a person who decided to run into a group of Right or even the EXTREME right was nothing more than a monster. 

[la dame en noir]

I've done.... some stupid things when I was protesting in my loud angry youth.  I do not support political violence,  messing with cars,  smashing in business windows and going for other people's property to display your rage...  anymore.  I've done a lot to attempt to calm myself down over the years...  and yet,  what I've been seeing from the right on this atrocities is an attempt to spin this monsters action as panic...  self defense.  What scares me most is their inability to say that what this man did was wrong. 

My mind is blown...   I believe a lot of us who lean more liberal would be perfectly willing to admit that a person who decided to run into a group of Right or even the EXTREME right was nothing more than a monster.

And they have to stop that woman's memorial because of threat's from people of that alt-right. It's fucking insane.

[Blythe]

The Nazis are not only going to be entrenched in their belief in oppression by a dogmatic liberal society, but they're almost VINDICATED as the victims of violence who're just carrying out their right to peacefully assemble.

While I'm aware this poster is on Hiatus, this statement needs addressed.

Deandre Harris, who was beaten by white supremacists, would disagree that the white supremacists were peaceably assembled.

So no, they were not peacefully assembling. As soon as they struck Mr. Harris, it wasn't peaceful.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/deandre-harris-viciously-beaten-poles-white-supremacists-article-1.3410063

Should that driver have mowed anyone down?

No.

But we should not let that horrifying act somehow erase what happened to Mr. Harris.

[SidheLady]

Okay, this is going to sound aweful, but, where were the police? We have seen what has happened when protests have happened and opposition groups have decided to "counter protest" several times -this year-

Surely if the two groups were not allowed to meet, there would have been no violence

[Iniquitous]

NO-ONE should be doxxed because they marched in either side, that is a breach of free speach and trying to use fear, loss of personal income.

Free speech does NOT mean free from consequences.  Employers have the right to fire their employees if their employees do something that puts their company in a bad light.  That is a consequence.  The company I work for would fire me if I were to ever take part in something that puts them in a negative light.

Personally, I approve of these companies firing those who took part in what happened in Charlottesville.  If those people want to stand up on national news and spew the hatred that they did, then they should face the consequences for those actions.

[Regina Minx]

Okay, this is going to sound aweful, but, where were the police?

I don't think that's a bad question at all. My suspicion, being somewhat near Charlottesville, is that given how small of a city it is, the local police department was simply unprepared for the scale of events. I honestly don't know, however.

[Iniquitous]

My understanding is they were there (2 died in a helicopter crash trying to survey the riot).  As for why they didn't stop this from happening, I suspect a large part of the problem was trying to figure out what the hell was happening.  The alt-right, nazis, KKK had a permit to be there.  The other groups protesting them did not. 

[FeveredDreams]

And they have to stop that woman's memorial because of threat's from people of that alt-right. It's fucking insane.

It more forgive my language fuckery.  For the movement that always screams about freedom of speech and the right to feel however they want, they seem extremely willing to do whatever is in their power to silence the other voices.

[Callie Del Noire]

I disagree with the doxing and so on of the racists..(refuse to use terms like alt-right, white nationalists, etc..call me what they are...)

You justify their claims by that action. (See? them <insert racial/religious epithets> done ruined our family Jr.)

I'm reminded of something that Burton Joeseph, the Jewish man who represented the National Socialists against Skokie, Ill to march there. It was a long time ago but essentially he said 'I represent them to protect my rights as well as theirs.'

The point being is twofold: what rights we deny them, however heinous we find their outlook, WILL eventually be denied us. Second, we empower them in doing more radical actions. Where do you think suicide bombers come from folks? From men and women who feel marginalized and disenfranchised.

Someone, who stood up to three bullies beating the shit out of me, said it best.."Doing the right thing isn't always doing the easiest thing."

That said, I'm glad to hear talk of the man in the car being called a 'domestic terrorist' instead of racist. He was not 'American' in his actions or outlook. These people don't want 'America', they want 'American for me and mine'. I'm disappointed he got charged with just 2nd degree murder.

[Regina Minx]

I'm disappointed he got charged with just 2nd degree murder.

That's a product of the Virginia penal code. If it's not a capital murder (the worst category of murder in Virginia, including the murder of children and multiple murders, among other things, and it essentially means the state will go for the death penalty) or first-degree murder, it's second-degree murder.

I think the prosecutor would have a hard time justifying the amount of premeditation Virginia law requires to prove first degree murder. Everything I understand about what happened indicates that it was done in a fit of rage or passion, and not deliberate premeditation.

[Oniya]

Free speech does NOT mean free from consequences.  Employers have the right to fire their employees if their employees do something that puts their company in a bad light.  That is a consequence.  The company I work for would fire me if I were to ever take part in something that puts them in a negative light.

Personally, I approve of these companies firing those who took part in what happened in Charlottesville.  If those people want to stand up on national news and spew the hatred that they did, then they should face the consequences for those actions.

For what it's worth, 'doxxing' is when a third party searches out someone's personal and private information.  If someone puts themselves on TV, talks to reporters, and gives their name, then there is no 'third party'.  And with the size of Charlottesville, chances are that someone who knew these people was watching the news.  Maybe even their direct employers.

[KieraJade]

This might be the first time I've ever posted in this part of the forums.

But as someone who has people in their life who were literally on the ground in Charlottesville this past weekend (both participating in the counter-protests and covering the events for local media), and someone who believes in correct information getting out so people can make their own decisions, here are just a few of the stories and timelines that you should read if you have any questions as to how it went down, where police were, where the politicians were, etc.:

http://www.newsadvance.com/townnews/politics/unite-the-right-torch-rally-ends-in-violence-at-the/article_11146201-05f6-59a8-82ea-bde597212c11.html

https://www.cjr.org/first_person/charlottesville-protest-photographer-photo.php?facebook&utm_content=buffer9fe91&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer

http://wset.com/news/local/timeline-of-events-for-unite-the-right-rally-in-charlottesville

https://www.buzzfeed.com/blakemontgomery/heres-what-really-happened-in-charlottesville?utm_term=.dtLDYGkKYo#.ie8yPdNOPE


Edit: Also, Charlottesville tried to move the rally, but because of testimony/Facebook posts/lawyers, it stayed downtown:

http://www.newsadvance.com/news/state/judge-allows-unite-the-right-rally-to-stay-in-emancipation/article_e3971264-12e9-5f85-8bd2-004cad4840a1.html

[Callie Del Noire]

That's a product of the Virginia penal code. If it's not a capital murder (the worst category of murder in Virginia, including the murder of children and multiple murders, among other things, and it essentially means the state will go for the death penalty) or first-degree murder, it's second-degree murder.

I think the prosecutor would have a hard time justifying the amount of premeditation Virginia law requires to prove first degree murder. Everything I understand about what happened indicates that it was done in a fit of rage or passion, and not deliberate premeditation.

I understand the way, I'm just disappointed we can see more Regina.. this man drove a CAR through a lot of people and we are LUCKY he didn't kill more.  I want him hammered to put it in the head of the next fool that THIS IS NOT TO BE DONE.

Ultimately, I'm saddened by this whole thing. I'm old enough to recall the 70s and read enough to understand what the decades before were like. I know am an atypical southern white boy from small town NC but I lived in other places. My first exposure to terroris dates back to the late 70s in Ireland.

I don't want that sort of thing here.

[Trigon]

That's a product of the Virginia penal code. If it's not a capital murder (the worst category of murder in Virginia, including the murder of children and multiple murders, among other things, and it essentially means the state will go for the death penalty) or first-degree murder, it's second-degree murder.

I think the prosecutor would have a hard time justifying the amount of premeditation Virginia law requires to prove first degree murder. Everything I understand about what happened indicates that it was done in a fit of rage or passion, and not deliberate premeditation.

It is also a product of the fact that "domestic terrorism" doesn't usually carry a more serious charge in our legal system. They would also need to be considered an enemy combatant for something like that (or also be charged with conspiracy, etc.).

[Valerian]

Okay, this is going to sound aweful, but, where were the police? We have seen what has happened when protests have happened and opposition groups have decided to "counter protest" several times -this year-

Surely if the two groups were not allowed to meet, there would have been no violence

From the Buzzfeed link KieraJade posted:

The right-wingers were more prepared for violence. Most white supremacist and Nazi groups arrived armed like a paramilitary force — carrying shields, protective gear, rods, and yes, lots of guns, utilizing Virginia’s loose firearm laws. They used militarized defensive maneuvers, shouting commands at one another to “move forward” or “retreat,” and would form a line of shields or a phalanx — it’s like they watched 300 a few times — to gain ground or shepherd someone through projectiles. It seemed that they had practiced for this. Virginia’s governor said that the right’s weaponry was better than that of the state police.

Emphasis mine.

[midnightblack]

While I don't agree with Nazis, I have to say I understand people's opinion that they have to be allowed to express their views. It sucks but that's how freedom of speech works. It cannot play favorites. Because today it might be banning Nazis, but tomorrow it might be banning anti-war protesters or people protesting an unjust act by the government.

The same freedom that lets them march and spew hate, also gives people the chance to counter protest. It just has to be used responsibly.

I think that these two statements contradict each other. Freedom of any kind must first and foremost imply the responsibility of understanding the ends to which it is put to use. Some countries that are otherwise quite liberal have heavy restrictions or outright bans on nazi symbols and propaganda, for reasons that should be self-evident. This is a flawed and failed ideology that caused the largest armed conflict of the XXth century and some of the biggest atrocities in human history, less than a hundred years ago. I'd argue that the deathtoll and long term damage caused by communism are actually larger, but that's beside the point.

I believe that it takes a frightening level of ignorance to ever support ideas that lead to mass hatred and murder. I do not think that freedom of expression is an answer for these people, but rather a thorough education on the topics that they claim to be in agreement with. Blissful ignorance together with an absolute freedom of speech can only lead to some form of disaster.

[Callie Del Noire]

I disagree Midnightblack.. like one of my teachers said.."Better to have them show their hate, and know it's there, than to outlaw it and have them hide it." Or today, have them justify their actions Like the do.

Evil is going to be there, I'd rather see it so I can point it out and call it out. Too many smiling faces in the news already foster rotten attitudes. Given an open forum they can out themselves.. like Milo Yiannopolis? He literally hung himself in the media..

[Regina Minx]

Well. Figuratively.

[Callie Del Noire]

Well. Figuratively.

Ah,. Thanks .. wishful thinking on my part.. :D

[Lustful Bride]

I personally feel that Philip De Franco kind of states my thoughts on all this better than I could.

[Lustful Bride]

From the Buzzfeed link KieraJade posted:

Emphasis mine.

You know, I will agree. I found it odd that we didn't see a single MRAP deployed there.

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide

You would think with such heated tensions the government would toss the police forces some of those to even the odds. I saw the weapons a lot of the Nationlists were carrying and a few AR-15s and glocks aren't going to put a dent in an MRAP.

They knew a big mob of two factions was coming and it was inevitable that people would start to fight. The only way to stop it from turning into a full blown riot is with overwhelming force on the part of security forces and moving the mobs into smaller chunks to keep them away from eachother.

I think that these two statements contradict each other. Freedom of any kind must first and foremost imply the responsibility of understanding the ends to which it is put to use. Some countries that are otherwise quite liberal have heavy restrictions or outright bans on nazi symbols and propaganda, for reasons that should be self-evident. This is a flawed and failed ideology that caused the largest armed conflict of the XXth century and some of the biggest atrocities in human history, less than a hundred years ago. I'd argue that the deathtoll and long term damage caused by communism are actually larger, but that's beside the point.

I believe that it takes a frightening level of ignorance to ever support ideas that lead to mass hatred and murder. I do not think that freedom of expression is an answer for these people, but rather a thorough education on the topics that they claim to be in agreement with. Blissful ignorance together with an absolute freedom of speech can only lead to some form of disaster.

Well...I can see your point. I do agree that more education would go a long way to help fight against this.

[Cookie]

It is not my intention to insult, but to draw attention.  I find it so very funny that so often we have the self-righteous on either side of the political isle demonize and condemn all others without the slightest sense of irony or shame, all while failing to realize that they are themselves a pure reflection of the very evil they claim to oppose.  Name any case of some right-wing nutcase doing something horrible, such as the KKK or Neo-Nazi or Alt-Right or what have you, and I could easily show a case from the other side, BLM, Antifa, ect. which is just as bad or worse.

I take umbrage with this perspective because you've got to take into account the aims of a movement alongside the actions of it's proponents.  Neo-Nazism is openly racist,  and fascist, it's ostensibly incompatible with the shared values of decent people, there's no taking it the wrong way, they are acting in line with the values promoted by their movement, their aims are odious.

I'm no expert on BLM  (I'm British so it doesn't meaningfully exist here) or what individual BLM supporters might have done/said, but I've seen their stated aims, and most seem reasonable, or at least within the framework of typical political debate.  An opposite to the KKK I guess would be something like the Nation of Islam, black supremacist type organisations.  Of course I'm opposed to far-left terrorism like the Red Army Faction or something. I hope their like don't spring up again.

I'm not for banning certain political opinions or speech, however obnoxious. Though in my personal experience far-right rallies bring violence and the threat of violence especially to vulnerable groups, and minority groups. I don't have a lot of time for anarchists smashing up property, but we've never had to hide in our home because of that, never experienced it once. Trust me when far right groups are marching on your doorstep it's not a lot of fun, especially if you or your loved ones are non-white, LGBTQ, or anything a bit different. Can't imagine what it's like if they're all armed up with guns  :o

[Trigon]

Lynching appears to be making a comeback in the South:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IdlwflV8_m0

[WindFish]

Free speech does NOT mean free from consequences.

This. Exactly this. It amazes me how little the people who claim to support free speech fail to understand this.

Free speech does not mean you're free from the consequences of said speech. Sure, you're free to tell your boss to go fuck himself, but chances are you'll be unemployed by the end of the day if you do.

Likewise, if you show up at a Nazi rally chanting racist and anti-Semitic slogans, then you are going to get called out on it, and people are free to judge you on it. I fully support the companies firing them, as well as the naming and shaming. If they were so concerned about their privacy and identities, they should have worn their hoods. You don't get to claim you're the victim afterwards.

I have no sympathy for anyone who attended that rally. They deserve to be identified. They willingly chose to attend the event knowing full well they'd be photographed. My sympathies are with the victims that one of them killed and injured, and the two officers who needlessly died while out patrolling the rally.

Before you sympathize with them or think they they were "peaceful" or blame the other side, keep in mind the following:

They were out there carrying torches, while others were armed to the teeth in military gear
They were there chanting anti-Semitic, racist, homophobic, and misogynist slogans and giving Hitler salutes
They surrounded a group of counterprotesters and endangered their lives
They were they supporting ideologies (Nazism, fascism, and white supremacy) that are inherently violent and racist

And let's not forget that the very next day one of them plowed a car through a group of innocent people, killing one and injuring nearly two dozen more. There were also many reports of business owners being threatened by these thugs. Peaceful, my ass.

These guys were not peaceful. They were there looking for trouble, and that was exactly what they found.

[SidheLady]

I personally feel that Philip De Franco kind of states my thoughts on all this better than I could.

The video was interesting,  as was the one by Honeybadger Radio

I sorta feel that this has been slowly building for years, and now, it's just beginning to hit the boiling point.

The people in the center need to take control from the extremists on both sides of the argument, those willing to talk, debate and make concession.

[Trigon]

I sorta feel that this has been slowly building for years, and now, it's just beginning to hit the boiling point.

The people in the center need to take control from the extremists on both sides of the argument, those willing to talk, debate and make concession.

Its been building up for several decades actually. I don't think we can count on the center to be able to contain the conflict at this point, since their political framework is unable to resolve the contradictions between their promises of equality and justice, and their continued affirmation (and support) of an order which is effectively undemocratic.

It's a contradiction, I think, that America has never been able to be honest about.

[Lustful Bride]

Its been building up for several decades actually. I don't think we can count on the center to be able to contain the conflict at this point, since their political framework is unable to resolve the contradictions between their promises of equality and justice, and their continued affirmation (and support) of an order which is effectively undemocratic.

It's a contradiction, I think, that America has never been able to be honest about.

I try to disagree, but with each day I feel we just get closer to a Dredd level dystopia.

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide

[Sara Nilsson]

I find it amusing that people defend the nazis, and yes that IS what they where. Screaming nazi slogans, doing the salute and waving the fucking swastika! I wonder what my grandfather would think, who served on the Swedish border to Norway throughout the war. Sure he never saw combat but I asked him once when I was a wee kid, and even then I could tell it scared him. Scared him to know that at a moments notice we could be next, only the efforts by the Swedish government kept us neutral. And it can be argued if that was good or bad that is besides the point.

Or what my husbands father would say. I need only go into our living room, on the wall mounted behind glass are his service medals. His uniform and bayonet that he got while serving during WWII. The very people that he sacrificed so much to fight, lost so many of his generation to wipe out is now proudly waving their fucking flags in his home country. I never got to meet him, he passed away before I met hubby, but from what hubby has told I think I have a pretty good idea how pissed he would be.

I wonder what my German relatives would say, my great, great grandfather (I think it was) came to Sweden. managed to get a sweet job as a train crossing guard and changed his last name to the much more Swedish one we now use. But I wonder what they would say, the ones that we don't know what happened to during the war. The ones that are just.. missing. Dead from the bombings? Starved to death or killed by the nazis? We don't know. But I wonder what they would say about people waving the nazi flag in the US.

Both in Germany and in Sweden that is illegal. And honestly we do not see it as an attack on free speech, it isn't a slippery slope. We banned that, and we havent gone ban crazy and ban tons of free speech.

People say, "What if we could have stopped Hitler and the nazis before they rose to power?" Well...

People also say, "these neo nazis are just a few people." If my history lesson is right, Hitler only started with a few people too. The nazi moment didn't start millions strong, the Beer Hall Putsch was only about 2000 of them.

Now I am NOT saying that ignoring the neo nazis will lead to them taking over. Just to make that crystal fucking clear. This is just my ramblings from what I have seen and heard in the wake of this horrible event. To hear people claim that the left is just as bad as the nazis (and again they are nazis, not just the over used internet trope of people I dont like are nazis, wave the nazi flag, scream blood and soil and you are a nazi. simple as that. simple duck test). I am sorry, not putting up with hatred isn't hatred. Opposing an ideology that want people like myself put to death is NOT even remotely on the same level as hating people so much you are willing to use a symbol that stood for just that. And the cries of "But communism killed more people" isn't a defense. I cant tell the judge "I only killed 2 people, Ted Bundy killed more so you should let me off".

Maybe.. maybe it is because I am not American, I just live here. But I don't understand. I just don't.

[DelightfullyMAD]

The video was interesting,  as was the one by Honeybadger Radio

I sorta feel that this has been slowly building for years, and now, it's just beginning to hit the boiling point.

The people in the center need to take control from the extremists on both sides of the argument, those willing to talk, debate and make concession.

This is my hope.  Honestly, I find myself growing more and more disappointed in both our major parties, as both sides have become rife with extremism.  Left and Right, both are feeding off each other, growing more and more insane by the day.  The same goes for our numerous organizations and groups, they all just feed off each other, gorging off each other, and all grow more and more crazy.  Simply put, the inmates are running all of the asylums, and it's the moderates of all groups who are being caught in the crossfire.  Antifa and the like are tearing the Left apart, the Alt-Right and the like are tearing the Right apart.  If I felt confident that both sides would just obliterate each other with minimal collateral damage, I'd almost say we should just sit back and watch this play out, but I doubt that will be the case.  My only hope is that both of the major parties have been damaged enough to allow in some real alternatives next election cycle.

Frankly, I am all on board with the formation of a Centrist party, something which tries to embody, as pragmatically as can be realistically expected, the values and ideas that both sides have to offer.  I am often in agreement with many of the ideas of the Moderate Left, and I also find value in many other ideas from the Moderate Right.  The trick, of course, is to try and maintain some sort of equilibrium.

[Trigon]

This is my hope.  Honestly, I find myself growing more and more disappointed in both our major parties, as both sides have become rife with extremism.  Left and Right, both are feeding off each other, growing more and more insane by the day.  The same goes for our numerous organizations and groups, they all just feed off each other, gorging off each other, and all grow more and more crazy.  Simply put, the inmates are running all of the asylums, and it's the moderates of all groups who are being caught in the crossfire.  Antifa and the like are tearing the Left apart, the Alt-Right and the like are tearing the Right apart.  If I felt confident that both sides would just obliterate each other with minimal collateral damage, I'd almost say we should just sit back and watch this play out, but I doubt that will be the case.  My only hope is that both of the major parties have been damaged enough to allow in some real alternatives next election cycle.

Frankly, I am all on board with the formation of a Centrist party, something which tries to embody, as pragmatically as can be realistically expected, the values and ideas that both sides have to offer.  I am often in agreement with many of the ideas of the Moderate Left, and I also find value in many other ideas from the Moderate Right.  The trick, of course, is to try and maintain some sort of equilibrium.

The fallacy here is the claim that the two major political parties in the United States actually oppose each other. The reality is, is that the GOP is on the far right, and the Democratic Party as it exists today are about as right wing as the GOP were during the Reagan administration (if you don't believe me then see here, where Democratic party leaders are now beginning to support anti-abortion candidates, or at least contemplating doing so).

There is no significant Left party currently existing in the United States today (or for that matter, a true Centrist party). It may be true that much of the population is either on the Center or the Left, but without any effective organization they don't have any political representation...

[Regina Minx]

Old joke. "There are two major political parties in the United States. The far Right party, called the Republicans. And the center Right party, called the Democrats."

[Trigon]

Pretty much! What makes it particularly grating is the fact that the Right will often hijack genuinely progressive campaigns or ideals, only to discard them once they get into power (and then to further add to the absurdity, they will then place the blame the Left for abandoning them).

Freedom of speech too is similarly abused by the Right, using it to support or justify violence against minorities and other vulnerable populations, with the eventual goal of abolishing it once they seize power.

[DelightfullyMAD]

The fallacy here is the claim that the two major political parties in the United States actually oppose each other. The reality is, is that the GOP is on the far right, and the Democratic Party as it exists today are about as right wing as the GOP were during the Reagan administration (if you don't believe me then see here, where Democratic party leaders are now beginning to support anti-abortion candidates, or at least contemplating doing so).

There is no significant Left party currently existing in the United States today (or for that matter, a true Centrist party). It may be true that much of the population is either on the Center or the Left, but without any effective organization they don't have any political representation...

Yeah, that is true.  The problem with a new party forming is that the whole thing is pretty much stacked so that such an event is all but impossible.  Any third parties that want to become even remotely viable or competitive have to hit a certain goalpost to even be eligible for major federal funding, and needless to say, that goal post keeps getting moved.  While I have my issues with both the Libertarian party and the Green party, at least having additional options like them would introduce an additional level of competition and choice, which would go a long ways to keeping the major parties more under control.  As of right now though, it really is just a case of 'Pick your Poison'.

Hell, I definitely didn't like Gary Johnson, but I still put in my vote for the Libertarians during the last election, more in the (admittedly vain) hope that the party itself would at least manage to hit that mark.  The Green party, though, didn't have a chance, and really was a wasted vote.  Alas, it was not to be.

[Trigon]

Yeah, that is true.  The problem with a new party forming is that the whole thing is pretty much stacked so that such an event is all but impossible.  Any third parties that want to become even remotely viable or competitive have to hit a certain goalpost to even be eligible for major federal funding, and needless to say, that goal post keeps getting moved.  While I have my issues with both the Libertarian party and the Green party, at least having additional options like them would introduce an additional level of competition and choice, which would go a long ways to keeping the major parties more under control.  As of right now though, it really is just a case of 'Pick your Poison'.

Hell, I definitely didn't like Gary Johnson, but I still put in my vote for the Libertarians during the last election, more in the (admittedly vain) hope that the party itself would at least manage to hit that mark.  The Green party, though, didn't have a chance, and really was a wasted vote.  Alas, it was not to be.

That's Duverger's Law for you! Because the USA has a "winner takes all" system, as exemplified by the Electoral College, it will necessarily tend towards a stable equilibrium in which you have only two dominant parties. Effectively, the only way for a third party win is to do so at the expense of one of the other two. When the system is stable, this would normally be impossible, but during times of political chaos there is a chance it could happen (as in the case of the Republican Party back just before the Civil War, where they displaced the Whigs). It is also why I have argued time and again to primary the Democrats in future elections (since they will not seriously resist the GOP, we need someone who can, and fast).

[Trigon]

Finally some good news! GoDaddy has finally decided to expel Daily Stormer from its services, due to publishing a blog post in which they smeared Heather Hayer (the one who was killed by being run over in the Charolettesville protest): http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-40922029

Google has also taken to expelling them as well.

[Lustful Bride]

Several people not involved with the violence in Charlottesville have been misidentified as Nazis due to the internet thinking it knows how to investigate.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/amateur-sleuths-aim-to-identify-charlottesville-marchers-but-sometimes-misfire/ar-AAq5nU5?ocid=HPCOMMDHP15

[Cookie]

Several people not involved with the violence in Charlottesville have been misidentified as Nazis due to the internet thinking it knows how to investigate.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/amateur-sleuths-aim-to-identify-charlottesville-marchers-but-sometimes-misfire/ar-AAq5nU5?ocid=HPCOMMDHP15

Yeah that kind of stuff always worries me. I recall there was a trend a while back on Facebook where people would try to out animal abusers with pictures and comments. I understand the sentiment I guess, but always stank of mob justice, anyone can get misidentified as a wrongdoer then get pitchforked by randoms when they're going about their business.

[Valerian]

https://www.texastribune.org/2017/08/14/white-nationalist-rally-texas-m-has-been-canceled/

One of the self-proclaimed "sequels" to Charlottesville has been canceled, at least for now.

Saying they’re concerned about student safety, Texas A&M University leaders announced Monday that they have canceled a planned white nationalist rally on campus.

The school said in a statement that it made the decision after consulting law enforcement and "considerable study." The event won’t happen because of "concerns about the safety of its students, faculty, staff and the public,” the school said.

The event was touted by [organizer Preston] Wiginton as a “White Lives Matter” rally. He said on Saturday that it would feature multiple speakers and a DJ. Infamous “alt-right” leader Richard Spencer confirmed on Sunday that he was planning to attend.

Wiginton said A&M can expect legal action soon, saying he knew of a lawyer who would help.

I am far more amused by the name of the organizer than I really should be.  Also, the event was planned to take place on a plaza named after Earl Rudder, a former A&M president, who's famed for his heroism fighting Nazis in World War II.

[Wistful Dream]

Seeing the coverage on this event is really unsettling. I get the debates with how to label these people, both from those against them and among themselves. But my thoughts are in line with the old adage, "If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it's a duck." These people were throwing Nazi salutes, roaring boil and soil, and other quotes that are clearly Nazi in origin. Some protest that they aren't all like that, but the issue then becomes if you are not a Nazi, or supporting of Nazi's, then why are you out there with them? Why are you not saying, "This is too far."

Phil DeFranco is a really good center view point in a lot of things, and his responses sum up a lot of how I view it.

When protesters come armed to the teeth like those in Charlottesville did it's not a peaceful protest. I honestly feel like the whole thing was a measure of domestic terrorism.

And I say this with a large part of my family identifying as Republicans. I don't have an issue with Republican's. I have an issue with people screaming words of hate, using weapons (including cars) against unarmed protesters seeking to have their voices heard. Yes, there can be issues with the Left, I'm not denying that, the shooter who 'supported Bernie' who attacked that baseball game was a terrorist in my eyes. But just because that happened it doesn't negate how absolutely horrible this is.

My parents are Republicans, I identified as an independent more but registered Democratic this past year when I saw the Republican front runners. Funny thing is, as right as my parents are fiscally they are very open to a lot of the social liberalism that's evolving in our country. I know several Republicans who are.  When my parents and I discuss politics we avoid discussing parties, because we make our choices based on different things, the social part is far more important to me. But then I'm a poly, LGTBQ woman.

I'm scared of where our country is going, I'm worried about the safety of those I love. I'm not sure when our country became unable to have discussions rather than screaming matches.

[DelightfullyMAD]

Seeing the coverage on this event is really unsettling. I get the debates with how to label these people, both from those against them and among themselves. But my thoughts are in line with the old adage, "If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it's a duck." These people were throwing Nazi salutes, roaring boil and soil, and other quotes that are clearly Nazi in origin. Some protest that they aren't all like that, but the issue then becomes if you are not a Nazi, or supporting of Nazi's, then why are you out there with them? Why are you not saying, "This is too far."

Phil DeFranco is a really good center view point in a lot of things, and his responses sum up a lot of how I view it.

When protesters come armed to the teeth like those in Charlottesville did it's not a peaceful protest. I honestly feel like the whole thing was a measure of domestic terrorism.

And I say this with a large part of my family identifying as Republicans. I don't have an issue with Republican's. I have an issue with people screaming words of hate, using weapons (including cars) against unarmed protesters seeking to have their voices heard. Yes, there can be issues with the Left, I'm not denying that, the shooter who 'supported Bernie' who attacked that baseball game was a terrorist in my eyes. But just because that happened it doesn't negate how absolutely horrible this is.

My parents are Republicans, I identified as an independent more but registered Democratic this past year when I saw the Republican front runners. Funny thing is, as right as my parents are fiscally they are very open to a lot of the social liberalism that's evolving in our country. I know several Republicans who are.  When my parents and I discuss politics we avoid discussing parties, because we make our choices based on different things, the social part is far more important to me. But then I'm a poly, LGTBQ woman.

I'm scared of where our country is going, I'm worried about the safety of those I love. I'm not sure when our country became unable to have discussions rather than screaming matches.

I do not endorse or condone the sorts of rhetoric and vitriol that was present at the march in Charlottesville.  I, like most people, found it very uncouth, distasteful, and very shameful.  And I am very much opposed to the use of violence, as I see violence as the last resort that is only used by those who have otherwise lost the argument.

That being said, this situation is more complicated than I think a lot of people want to admit.  Yes, the Neo-Nazis present at the march were armed, and probably looking for trouble, but the march itself was actually legitimate within the confines of the law.  They did actually go through the proper channels in order to procure permits, from what I was able to glean, and thus, as nasty as the protest might have been, they were still within their rights to do it.

The other side, Antifa, also went there itching for a rumble.  They weren't there holding flowers and handing out Pepsi in an attempt to peacefully counter protest, they were there to rumble as well.  Whether or not one agrees with Antifa or not (I personally find them just as bad, and frankly their actions across the nation are actually contributing to making things worse, not better), the issue is that both sides were pretty much looking to throw down.  And as per usual, both sides begin to feed into one another, and thus we end up with Charlottesville.

The problem that occurs when one tries to Fight Fire With Fire, is that we just end up making the fire bigger.  When it comes right down to it, extremists are beginning to take over society, on all sides, and regardless as to which side is right or wrong, neither side is going to back down, and violence will be met with violence, over and over.  As heinous as Nazi wannabes are, as despicable as their rhetoric may be, the problem with meeting their hate with your own is that you ultimately do nothing but feed into it.  Punching a Nazi simply because they are Nazi's isn't going to defeat Nazism, it just makes you feel better, all while further fueling the ideology.

Ultimately, unfortunately, there really is no good answer.  I mean, what are we supposed to do?  Arrest them simply for being Nazis?  At that point, we have just hit the slippery slope, for that sort of action never goes well in the long run.  That way lies Totalitarianism, which, despite what we may wish to think, is perfectly capable of arising on either side of the political isle.

[Lustful Bride]

I do not endorse or condone the sorts of rhetoric and vitriol that was present at the march in Charlottesville.  I, like most people, found it very uncouth, distasteful, and very shameful.  And I am very much opposed to the use of violence, as I see violence as the last resort that is only used by those who have otherwise lost the argument.

That being said, this situation is more complicated than I think a lot of people want to admit.  Yes, the Neo-Nazis present at the march were armed, and probably looking for trouble, but the march itself was actually legitimate within the confines of the law.  They did actually go through the proper channels in order to procure permits, from what I was able to glean, and thus, as nasty as the protest might have been, they were still within their rights to do it.

The other side, Antifa, also went there itching for a rumble.  They weren't there holding flowers and handing out Pepsi in an attempt to peacefully counter protest, they were there to rumble as well.  Whether or not one agrees with Antifa or not (I personally find them just as bad, and frankly their actions across the nation are actually contributing to making things worse, not better), the issue is that both sides were pretty much looking to throw down.  And as per usual, both sides begin to feed into one another, and thus we end up with Charlottesville.

The problem that occurs when one tries to Fight Fire With Fire, is that we just end up making the fire bigger.  When it comes right down to it, extremists are beginning to take over society, on all sides, and regardless as to which side is right or wrong, neither side is going to back down, and violence will be met with violence, over and over.  As heinous as Nazi wannabes are, as despicable as their rhetoric may be, the problem with meeting their hate with your own is that you ultimately do nothing but feed into it.  Punching a Nazi simply because they are Nazi's isn't going to defeat Nazism, it just makes you feel better, all while further fueling the ideology.

Ultimately, unfortunately, there really is no good answer.  I mean, what are we supposed to do?  Arrest them simply for being Nazis?  At that point, we have just hit the slippery slope, for that sort of action never goes well in the long run.  That way lies Totalitarianism, which, despite what we may wish to think, is perfectly capable of arising on either side of the political isle.

This is pretty much the same problem with the Westboro Baptist Church. They are unquestionably pieces of shit. protesting military funerals, constantly heckling and protesting gay marriage with some of the most disgusting things I have ever seen, but they know how to spew their bile while still being perfectly within the law. And while id love to see them be tazed, maced and clonked with some batons, I know that if it did happen itd be a bad sign for the country as the government would be extending beyond its acceptable limit.

[DelightfullyMAD]

It is quite the conundrum, isn't it?  Of course it would be wonderful if we could just silence such people, make them go away.  After all, it's very tempting, such ideologies are poisonous, toxic, and vile.  But at that point, where do we stop?  Human beings are notoriously bad at moderation, we tend towards extremes no matter what we do.  Damn near every movement becomes corrupt over time, it's only a matter of time, because no matter how noble or good the ideology, we just don't know when to call it quits.  We reach the perfect point, the point where we have attained that which we set out to accomplish... then proceed to zoom right on past that point, become ever more extreme, ever more convinced of our own righteousness.  And that never ends well.

This is why I, despite my own distaste for them, begrudgingly still defend the basic right for people to believe what they want, and say what they want.  It sucks, it isn't the perfect solution, but the alternative just never ends well, because people just never know when to stop.  Like I asked before, what should we do to those who hold such ideologies?  Arrest them?  Punish them?  Kill them?  All these would be short term solutions, but how long would it be before we start expanding the umbrella of what we consider justified?  That is where the issue lies.

[Regina Minx]

DelightfullyMAD, I just want to point out that you are once again drawing an equivalence between Nazis and their opponents. If in the course of your argument, you feel the need to point to two sides and say "You're both at fault here," and one of them looks like this:



Rethink your position immediately.

Also, I need to call out that once again you're engaged in a logical fallacy. This time you're slippery slope-ing. There are laws on the books in most European countries that outlaw public display of Nazi paraphanalia and/or banning incitement to hatred against segments of the population. And yet, I seriously doubt you're prepared to say that modern-day Germany is a totalitarian state.

Note that I'm not saying that I agree with this as a legal principal or as a worthy sacrifice of First Amendment rights. Only that just because a country bans public displays of Nazi-ism and incitement on the basis of race or religion doesn't make it a fascist dictatorship.

[Sara Nilsson]

It is quite the conundrum, isn't it?  Of course it would be wonderful if we could just silence such people, make them go away.  After all, it's very tempting, such ideologies are poisonous, toxic, and vile.  But at that point, where do we stop?  Human beings are notoriously bad at moderation, we tend towards extremes no matter what we do.  Damn near every movement becomes corrupt over time, it's only a matter of time, because no matter how noble or good the ideology, we just don't know when to call it quits.  We reach the perfect point, the point where we have attained that which we set out to accomplish... then proceed to zoom right on past that point, become ever more extreme, ever more convinced of our own righteousness.  And that never ends well.

This is why I, despite my own distaste for them, begrudgingly still defend the basic right for people to believe what they want, and say what they want.  It sucks, it isn't the perfect solution, but the alternative just never ends well, because people just never know when to stop.  Like I asked before, what should we do to those who hold such ideologies?  Arrest them?  Punish them?  Kill them?  All these would be short term solutions, but how long would it be before we start expanding the umbrella of what we consider justified?  That is where the issue lies.

But the thing is, lots of European countries have made it illegal to fly the nazi flag, to do the salute and we havent gone ban crazy. So no it isn't all that much of a slippery slope. As a Swede I can safely say, nope still am free to say pretty much what I want. I cant scream Sieg Heil with my hand in the air, I cant call for the extermination of an entire race.. but really is that such a big deal? Sweden hasn't continued.. no you can't say this.. and this.. and this.. and we don't want people to say this.. no.. We said. No nazi shit or calling for harm on others. And we stopped there. Ill point to my much longer reply above.

[DelightfullyMAD]

@Sara Nilsson+Regina Minx:  I will concede the point.  And again, I certainly am not in support of ideologies such as this, and do in fact condemn them quite strongly.  Nazism is most definitely something that should be opposed, no arguments, and White Supremacists, or any Supremacists, should also be opposed.  Those sorts of ideologies completely miss the whole point of an egalitarian society. Again, I fully agree with that.  Open and civil discourse should reign in any civilized country, and all such groups only serve to muddy those waters, and no, in that regard, I won't relent.  Violence doesn't contribute to peaceful discourse, no matter where it comes from.

[Iniquitous]

Violence does not contribute to discourse, but it sure makes a point that some things are utterly unacceptable.  Nazism is one of those utterly unacceptable things. And before you say that violence should never happen, look at what one of our founding fathers said.

The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.

So, yes, there are times that violence is necessary.  I think you need to seriously look at what you are saying, because what it amounts to is that Heather Heyer was to blame for her death because the anti-protesters didn't have a permit. 

[DelightfullyMAD]

That was hardly my intention, nor would I ever suggest such.  I apologize if I did, though I don't really think I was making any sort of attempt at victim blaming.  What happened to her was truly tragic, it was murder, and the driver should be tried as such.

[Trigon]

Violence does not contribute to discourse, but it sure makes a point that some things are utterly unacceptable.  Nazism is one of those utterly unacceptable things. And before you say that violence should never happen, look at what one of our founding fathers said.

The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.

So, yes, there are times that violence is necessary.  I think you need to seriously look at what you are saying, because what it amounts to is that Heather Heyer was to blame for her death because the anti-protesters didn't have a permit.

We should take caution when making a comparison with past revolutions or insurrections, or even just basic policing or military operations. All of those actions presume that violence is a means to an end, and will therefore cease to be necessary at some point in the future. Fascists and other far-Right groups, on the otherhand, see violence as an end in and of itself (i.e. They like it for its own sake, if they seize power they will very likely escalate it).

[SidheLady]

We should take caution when making a comparison with past revolutions or insurrections, or even just basic policing or military operations. All of those actions presume that violence is a means to an end, and will therefore cease to be necessary at some point in the future. Fascists and other far-Right groups, on the otherhand, see violence as an end in and of itself (i.e. They like it for its own sake, if they seize power they will very likely escalate it).

I think we should remember there are extremists on both sides at the moment, both the far left and the far right. Look at what happened at Berkley or Hamberg at the G20

[Oniya]

Back when I was in college, the KKK decided that they were going to have a march.  They apparently filed all the proper permits, walked down the main street, and that was that.  There was some discussion in some of the classrooms about First Amendment rights at the time, and one thing was specifically pointed out:  The Constitution specifies the right to peaceable assembly.  I went poking about to see under what circumstances an assembly permit could be revoked - or an assembly with a permit could be shut down - and it turns out that there is legal precedent about this sort of thing in a number of countries.  https://www.loc.gov/law/help/peaceful-assembly/right-to-peaceful-assembly.pdf  The US is listed last, but the bit I find notable is this:

The First Amendment does not provide the right to conduct an assembly at which there is a clear and present danger of riot, disorder, or  interference with traffic on public streets, or other immediate threat to public safety or order.

So, you can have your swastikas and your 'Heil Hitler' salutes, but when you start brandishing weapons at people, you've crossed out of the 'protection of the Constitution'.  That goes for both sides.

[Lilias]

[Regina Minx]

I think we should remember there are extremists on both sides at the moment, both the far left and the far right. Look at what happened at Berkley or Hamberg at the G20

Yes, there are extremists on both sides. But that does not mean that the ideologies of these two groups are at all equivalent. On one side you have advocates of social justice reform in addition to opposition to fascism. On the other side you have. Fucking. Nazis.

[Wistful Dream]

Lil, that is just so perfect.

DelightfullyMAD, I wasn't saying that the extreme left is in the right. I was saying that just because they can do stuff just as bad doesn't negate what's happening due to the alt right who identify as Neo-Nazis. It's rather similar in my mind to the fashion brand that tried to reclaim the Swastika. Yes the symbol was originally one of peace but the fact is that it is so wildly known now to be a symbol for Nazism, for hatred and bigotry and ethnic cleansing, that those who use it are to a degree aligning themselves with that ideology. The global response to that fashion brand had that particular line of clothing being shelved, because there are some things that should not be reclaimed, at least not so soon after the tragedy and horror that happened.

And no, saying that about Nazi's doesn't negate what the US did to the Japanese American's in internment camps, or how the US government and medical researches treated Pureto Rico. There's bad stuff everywhere, in every country. But we as a society should keep calling it out, and holding people accountable for basic human rights.

I am proud of the Freedom of Speech we have, and I do not wish to see it removed -- though Lil's comic shows a very useful point that certain things are calls to action that could incite harm. Which I feel is exactly what happened.

Yes, there are extremists on both sides. But that does not mean that the ideologies of these two groups are at all equivalent. On one side you have advocates of social justice reform in addition to opposition to fascism. On the other side you have. Fucking. Nazis.

+1

[DelightfullyMAD]

@Wistful Dream:  Point taken, but I also must note that there is a trend where a lot of people seem to believe that the Alt-Right is the entire Right.  I would no more condemn the Left as a whole for the actions of Antifa, for example, but when I see others essentially condemn the entire Right for the actions of it's own extremists, the Alt-Right and the Neo-Nazis, then that is the same thing.  I know many Right Wing people, and all of them are reasonable and decent folk.  They hold to conservative values, some of which I agree with, some of which I don't, but they aren't out there brandishing Swastikas and calling for the deaths of non-whites, and they are just as horrified by the actions of groups like the Alt-Right as anyone.  Yet it seems like a lot of people think that the entirety of the Right are all members of the Alt-Right, and simply do not recognize that much like the moderate Left, the moderate Right aren't monsters, nor do they even hold ideals that are in any way hateful.

Simply put, this isn't a case of 'the Left has it's extremists, but the entire Right are all Nazis', the case is that 'The Left has it's extremists, and the Right has it's extremists.  The Left has Antifa, the Right has the Alt-Right.'  We have to be willing to condemn these extremist movements, because just like the Alt-Right who should be called out and called to task, groups like Antifa need to be called out as well.

[midnightblack]

I disagree Midnightblack.. like one of my teachers said.."Better to have them show their hate, and know it's there, than to outlaw it and have them hide it." Or today, have them justify their actions Like the do.

Evil is going to be there, I'd rather see it so I can point it out and call it out. Too many smiling faces in the news already foster rotten attitudes. Given an open forum they can out themselves.. like Milo Yiannopolis? He literally hung himself in the media..

Sorry for the delayed reply. I don't agree with your teacher and neither with the reverse attitude having the implications that you mention in the second paragraph. There's no need for smiling faces here. Whenever in doubt, you have the simple, factual historic truth at your side. The ideologies of the late XIXth and XXth centuries that lead to death at a global scale do not deserve to share the freedom that was patched together as we tried (and some of us still do...) to trudge out from their ruins. Unrestrained freedom, together with a lack of understanding of the purpose that it serves, will only lead to the repetition of mistakes.

I do agree that evil must be pointed out, but not by allowing its ashes to glow again in public displays. Nazism (and any other failed ideology for that matter) must never be forgotten, but constantly held accountable and condemned for its countless crimes. At least for a couple of thousands of years from now, until the dust of ancient history has settled over its name and (hopefully) we have achieved the intellectual maturity to laugh at its ridiculousness  and shelf it as a miscellaneous topic in some boring volume. Its leaders do not deserve to be glorified (one of the organizers of this rally appears to have been wearing a t-shirt with the mug of a fascist figurehead from my own little country; it's rather amazing actually), but rather remembered as precisely what history has ultimately proven them to be: absolute morons.

[WindFish]

It's disappointing, but not surprising, that Trump is spinning the narrative that makes the white nationalists and alt-right look like the victims.

The fascists, alt-right, Nazis or whatever you want to call them are not victims, and nor are they peaceful. When you're representing an ideology that literally represents violence, genocide, and bigotry, you are not peaceful or innocent. When they show up at rallies carrying torches or dressed like paramilitaries, they lose the right to call themselves peaceful. When they make the Hitler salute and they chant actual Nazi slogans, "death to Jews", and other bigoted slurs, they do not get to call themselves victims or peaceful. When they beat up people simply because of their race, they are not victims. When one of them borrows ISIS' tactics and plows a car through innocent people, killing one, that certainly does not make them the sweet, innocent victims that Trump is making them out to be. That makes them terrorists. I have absolutely no sympathy for them, and they deserve none. My sympathies are for their victims.

[Samael]

That being said, this situation is more complicated than I think a lot of people want to admit.  Yes, the Neo-Nazis present at the march were armed, and probably looking for trouble, but the march itself was actually legitimate within the confines of the law.  They did actually go through the proper channels in order to procure permits, from what I was able to glean, and thus, as nasty as the protest might have been, they were still within their rights to do it.

I do recommend you watching this

Charlottesville: Race and Terror – VICE News Tonight on HBO
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P54sP0Nlngg

It is only 20 minutes, but it involves journalists being around Neo-Nazis during the whole thing.
You can see their thoughts and words and ... their guns and weapons, and their hopes for what will happen.

I am also presenting this quote:
The paradox of tolerance: Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them.
~ Karl Popper


As a German I spent most of my history classes in school dealing with the terrors of the Holocaust and the second world war.
As I was a kid, I talked with my grandfather about that time, about his experiences within it. About the anger and the shame he felt for himself and for my country for the horrible actions we've taken. Until his death he was adamant about that there was nothing as horrible as the Nazis in the world.
By everything I saw and learned, from school to visiting Auschwitz, I tell you guys, if you have the chance to punch a Nazi?

Do it.

Nothing compares to what Nazis would do if they come back into power again.
We are talking about people who learned to to kill as many people as efficiently as possible.
And if they come back, they'll do it all over again.

Don't let that happen.

[Lilias]

As a German I spent most of my history classes in school dealing with the terrors of the Holocaust and the second world war.
By everything I saw and learned, from school to visiting Auschwitz, I tell you guys, if you have the chance to punch a Nazi?

Do it

Like a boss.

[Samael]

Like a boss.

INDY BEING AWESOME.JPG

Fuckin' A!

Also, and this is important, guys, if you are on the fence, if anyone is on the fence about the Neo-Nazis, both sides and all of that jazz, watch the Vice Documentary posted up there, and then watch this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23X14HS4gLk
This has been produced (iirc 43, then reissued in 47) right during the Second World War.

It is frightening how much this fits today.

[Swidi]

NSFW:

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide

What a bunch of cu**s.

[Lilias]

What a bunch of cunts.

Oi! Cunts are very useful, unlike Vanilla ISIS there.

[Swidi]

Oi! Cunts are very useful, unlike Vanilla ISIS there.

The scary thing is, I am hesitant about calling them terrorists because then it would simply open up the country for even more draconian police laws. But still, it sure is terrorism.

[Lilias]

The scary thing is, I am hesitant about calling them terrorists because then it would simply open up the country for even more draconian police laws. But still, it sure is terrorism.

Domestic terrorism is a thing. Call away. If those people were a few shades darker, we wouldn't even be having this conversation, because they would be dead. Terrorism has no colour.

[Wistful Dream]

I find it so incredibly sad that Tiki Torches did a better job of denouncing what happened than our President.

[Lilias]

Best advice to (counter-)protesters ever:

[Deamonbane]

Best advice to (counter-)protesters ever:

*snips*

That's some good advice right there!

[Oniya]

unlike Vanilla ISIS there.

*snickers*  Probably more than I should, but I remember the MTV musical number also known as 'White Guys Can't Rap'.  Although it made a decent polka.

[Regina Minx]

Works especially well if you're an overweight black grandfather of seven.  :P

[Oniya]

As in planting your white, milquetoast self in front of the overweight grandpa?  Just make sure to actually bring the cookies.  ;D

[Lilias]

*snickers*  Probably more than I should, but I remember the MTV musical number also known as 'White Guys Can't Rap'.  Although it made a decent polka.

Other, less musically loaded, variants include 'Y'all-Quaeda' and of course 'alt-Reich'.

[Lustful Bride]

In the wake of the Charlottesville tragedy, an old US Anti Facism video has suddenly become very popular.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2017/08/14/after-charlottesville-violence-world-war-ii-anti-fascist-propaganda-video-finds-new-relevance/?utm_term=.67a146f0d448

The Actual Video in question

It was a fun watch and I recommend it.

[Trigon]

Yeah, so if there is any lingering doubt that the GOP really is the party of white sumpremacists, misogyny, etc., a new poll reveals that 2/3rds of Republican voters approve of Trump's response to the Charlottesville massacre. Thereby proving, once again, that those who voted for Trump are either stupid, extremely gullible, and/or bigots.

Congratulations, Republicans, for voting in a goddam Nazi to the presidency. Hopefully some will have the good sense to leave the GOP for good after all that has transpired, as mere association with them basically means complicity...

[Valerian]

A letter from the great-great grandsons of Thomas "Stonewall" Jackson.

This needs to get printed everywhere.

[gaggedLouise]

When George Bush Sr and Jr  the only living republican ex-presidents - make a joint statement condemning racism and Mitt Romney makes the same points (not to mention Obama), while the current president refuses to clearly express the difference in kind between the ultra-right wingers that poured in armed to their teeth, and on the other hand the locals and anti-racist protesters - then you know you are living in strange times.  ^_ ^

[gaggedLouise]

Steve Cohen, a democrat from Tennessee in the House of Representatives, says he will launch an appeal in the House to have Trump impeached over his handling of the Charlottesville affair. "He has failed to show the moral leadership" that belongs with the office of the president at critical moments, Cohen says.

Even if it looks like a symbolic move at this time, I agree with Cohen.

[DominantPoet]

Steve Cohen, a democrat from Tennessee in the House of Representatives, says he will launch an appeal in the House to have Trump impeached over his handling of the Charlottesville affair. "He has failed to show the moral leadership" that belongs with the office of the president at critical moments, Cohen says.

Even if it looks like a symbolic move at this time, I agree with Cohen.

Second actual attempt at Impeachment? I'm all for it. Get that Pumpkinheaded man-child out of the office. Let Pence come in and fuck up just as bad, and just keep that rotating door going. Yes yes.

Especially since the man seems intent on now taking a completely false story, and not only once again acting like it's true, but suggesting that anyone (ostensibly the US in general) DO this O.o

https://www.vox.com/2017/8/17/16163746/trump-pershing-tweet

[Lustful Bride]

Second actual attempt at Impeachment? I'm all for it. Get that Pumpkinheaded man-child out of the office. Let Pence come in and fuck up just as bad, and just keep that rotating door going. Yes yes.

Especially since the man seems intent on now taking a completely false story, and not only once again acting like it's true, but suggesting that anyone (ostensibly the US in general) DO this O.o

https://www.vox.com/2017/8/17/16163746/trump-pershing-tweet

Oh dammit. This is going to cause uncomfortable backlash. >_<

The moment I saw the name I knew instantly what you meant.

Though I fear Pence might be more competent than Trump. Its like if you went back in time and took out hitler, someone more competent and dangerous could take his place.

[FeveredDreams]

When George Bush Sr and Jr  the only living republican ex-presidents - make a joint statement condemning racism and Mitt Romney makes the same points (not to mention Obama), while the current president refuses to clearly express the difference in kind between the ultra-right wingers that poured in armed to their teeth, and on the other hand the locals and anti-racist protesters - then you know you are living in strange times.  ^_ ^

I have a hard time with Dubya.  He was the first president I really remembered or cared about you know?  I often wonder if he's hit the point in his life,  as a Christian...  which he is right? (It's hard to know with republican politicians.)  That he's not trying to actually denounce things,  instead he's just trying to get good with God again after throwing a chunk of our nations youth into a meat grinder...  while destroying another nations youth.  I like to think he's talking in good faith...  but,  I REALLY have a hard time empathizing with him. 

[DelightfullyMAD]

If an impeachment is going to happen, it needs to happen quick.  Impeachment typically takes a long time, and is an involved process as well as costly, if the impeachment attempts against ol Bill are anything to go by, so if all we do is hem and haw and wish upon a star for an impeachment, then all that's going to happen is that it will happen too late, and it really won't make a difference for the most part.

This is something that I think moderate Democrats and Republicans can get behind.  A number of friends and family of mine who are Republican, or at least Right leaning, would be just as happy for Trump to be out as anyone on the Left, especially since the guy basically hijacked the party.  Hell, things have kind of sucked for the moderate Right for quite some time, seeing as how the inmates took over the asylum quite some time ago, and now a days the Democrats seem to be suffering the same thing.  Most people I know on both sides of the fence are finding it increasingly difficult to justify voting since it seems like neither party gives a flying crap about anyone anymore.

All in all, I really do hope that our current state of politics serve as a major wake up call to both sides.  Otherwise, we're going to keep on sliding down into ever increasing division and hatred, and at the rate we're going, Charlottesville is just going to be the tip of the iceberg.  Our nation is sick, and until both sides of the isle can shape up and try and actually deal with the problems that seem to be piling up, this is only going to get worse.  As division continues to build, hateful groups like the Neo-Nazis or Antifa are going to just get more and more vicious, and soon we're going to be repeating history all over again as the Reds and Nazis once more fight it out, with the civilians in between.

In regards to Dubya, I find myself rather torn.  In general, I do like to assume the best in people, or at the very least not assume outright maliciousness, so I am choosing to take his condemnation at face value.  Besides, Dubya himself was really more of a talking head for Palpatine, I mean Cheney.

[Trigon]

Sometimes I can't help but wonder, if Trump is impeached, would the Neo-Nazis, Neo-Confederates, and other far right groups attempt to stage an insurrection to overthrow the federal government?

[DelightfullyMAD]

I doubt they'd have the numbers, to be honest.

I really don't like seeing Nazi marches or hate rallies like this anymore than the next person, but let's be honest and say that the media might do just a wee bit of exaggerating.  It's easy to show videos and pictures of people at a rally like this, and then say that this is a massive movement, when it truth it's a small number of radicalized people.  One of the many reason I take what most media outlets, both mainstream and independent, say with a grain (rather a heaping spoonful) of salt.  Sensationalism gets ratings, and ratings get money.

Now, would there be some kind of blowback if he were?  Probably.  Whether Trump actually supports these people or not, or if he is just pandering, there are certainly people in the Alt-Right who think he is fully on their side, and in the end that's all that really matters.  But I haven't really seen enough to make me worry that some sort of mass revolution/revolt would take place, at least not one that would have the slightest chance in hell of actually succeeding.

I could just be being optimistic though...

[FeveredDreams]

Sometimes I can't help but wonder, if Trump is impeached, would the Neo-Nazis, Neo-Confederates, and other far right groups attempt to stage an insurrection to overthrow the federal government?

I remember them talking about how if he wasn't elected they were talking about taking to the streets with their weapons.

[Lustful Bride]

Sometimes I can't help but wonder, if Trump is impeached, would the Neo-Nazis, Neo-Confederates, and other far right groups attempt to stage an insurrection to overthrow the federal government?

I remember them talking about how if he wasn't elected they were talking about taking to the streets with their weapons.

If they did, the Federal Government would crush them. It has spent the last decade fighting insurgencies far more well equipped, determined, and trained, than many of those idiots. And for an real successful insurrection you need numbers, real weaponry and support. At most they would cause some civilian deaths and injuries via IEDs before the National Guard came in and really brought the boot down on them.

Even Regular police forces are now being equipped with surplus military gear, including armored vehicles. The problem is it would screw over a lot of good people and the government would probably use that as the final excuse to go all out on gun regulation. :/

But maybe if it gets that bad.....I would accept harsher legislation, for the good of the country. :(

Seriously, I will admit they could be hard in a few fights, but they are small time compared to other insurgency groups, and to the original Nazis.

[Regina Minx]

The "both sides" nonsense doesn't seem to be a new line of attack.

[WindFish]

If you as President can't bring yourself to say the words "Nazis are evil and I condemn them", then perhaps you're not qualified for that position.

I think Germany has the right idea when it comes to banning Nazis. They learned from their mistakes, and yet they still manage to comply with EU free speech laws in doing so.

[Trigon]

If they did, the Federal Government would crush them. It has spent the last decade fighting insurgencies far more well equipped, determined, and trained, than many of those idiots. And for an real successful insurrection you need numbers, real weaponry and support. At most they would cause some civilian deaths and injuries via IEDs before the National Guard came in and really brought the boot down on them.

Even Regular police forces are now being equipped with surplus military gear, including armored vehicles. The problem is it would screw over a lot of good people and the government would probably use that as the final excuse to go all out on gun regulation. :/

But maybe if it gets that bad.....I would accept harsher legislation, for the good of the country. :(

Seriously, I will admit they could be hard in a few fights, but they are small time compared to other insurgency groups, and to the original Nazis.

One would think so, but as the government is currently run by a bunch of Nazi sympathizers we can't be so sure they will make an attempt to do so when the barbarians are at the gates.

By the way, word on the street is that more Charlottesvilles are planned in the coming months by the far-right: https://www.thecanary.co/2017/08/16/trump-reveals-true-colours-far-right-plans-charlottesvilles-revealed-tweets/

As this is just merely the first stage of a fascist coup I can't say I'm terribly surprised.

If you as President can't bring yourself to say the words "Nazis are evil and I condemn them", then perhaps you're not qualified for that position.

I think Germany has the right idea when it comes to banning Nazis. They learned from their mistakes, and yet they still manage to comply with EU free speech laws in doing so.

That was obvious from the beginning. Unfortunately a significant chunk of the population (I estimate some 15-25% of it) are either supporters or fellow travelers for the Trump regime. And some may not even care that he's an idiot, so long as he manages to burn things to the ground.

[Trigon]

And also, so much for the second amendment ensuring protection against tyranny. Turns out that, it does jack shit when the population would gladly and voluntarily submit itself to an incipient dictator. What a joke!

[gaggedLouise]

Very good editorial on Trump in Economist - and a fabulous caricature to top it off. The pic is on the cover of the new print issue of the paper!  :D

https://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21726696-u-turns-self-regard-and-equivocation-are-not-what-it-takes-donald-trump-has-no-grasp-what-it

[Shekinah]

I love this message

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FN_YIBr0ELM

[Regina Minx]

Very good editorial on Trump in Economist - and a fabulous caricature to top it off. The pic is on the cover of the new print issue of the paper!  :D

https://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21726696-u-turns-self-regard-and-equivocation-are-not-what-it-takes-donald-trump-has-no-grasp-what-it

The magazine covers are pretty clear about things.

[FeveredDreams]

I love this message

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FN_YIBr0ELM

Annie does it again.  The man is so likeable. 

[Regina Minx]

Oh, and while I'm throwing gas on the fire here, Trump's response was right. He called out violence on both sides, and this didn't go far enough for the media because he didn't just go for one side

SidheLady, I've actually been thinking a lot about this statement of yours since you posted it. After more than a week of trying to decide why Trump's response felt so off, and why I think he was wrong, this is what I've come up with.

I think that Trump’s reaction on Saturday and since were extraordinary, both in that he behaved in a way we don’t expect Donald Trump to behave, and he also behaved in a way that we don’t expect the President of the United States to behave.

Donald Trump’s typical reaction to tragic events in the news that he sees as un-American has three parts.

1) He calls it out as being horrible, despicable, and un-American, and he calls it out fast. Often before all the facts are in, like when he denounced the shooting in Milan as an act of Islamic terrorism, turned out to be a much more mundane bank robbery. He didn’t do that here when talking about the neo-Nazis.

2) Under usual circumstances, anyone who says to Trump’s blunt explanation of things that it’s more complicated or there’s contributory violence or a wider context. Trump uses that as proof that they don't understand the big truth and he ridicules for it. He argues that anyone who doesn’t understand the bigger issue or what he sees as the most important part of a thing as proof that they don’t understand it as well as he does. In this case, Donald Trump was the one arguing for a more complicated, nuanced view of things. There was contributory violence from the left. The wider context is that there were fine people on both sides (and I’m willing to grant for the sake of argument that Trump is not arguing that the Nazis were fine people, just that there were fine people marching with the Nazi.)

3) The third and final part of Trump’s typical response to this sort of thing is that he has often had a relaxed attitude towards violence done to those he identifies as un-American. We saw this repeatedly in the campaign. When a guy there protesting was blindsided and punched by a Donald Trump supporter, he said (and I’m paraphrasing here), “Well yes, I don’t condone violence, but the guy who was hit was gesturing with his middle finger.” As if to say that sometimes people have it coming if they get punched or beaten.

The above three elements are the things that Donald Trump has shown us as part of his response to this sort of thing time and time again when something makes the news and he thinks of it as un-American. And yet, in this case, he completely reversed himself on all three elements. By his own standards and behavior, he was acting out-of-character.

Now Donald Trump (like most people, in the spirit of honesty) has been known to change his standards before. In this case, the question becomes “Why is Donald Trump changing his behavior?” Either by design or by accident, it’s to protect white nationalists, neo-Nazis, and the Klan.

And that brings me to the second way that this was unexpected because it’s not the way that Presidents normally address American fascism and racism, at least in the modern era. Presidents are usually quick to respond to this sort of thing in moral terms. The people who were marching with Nazi flags and chanting “Jews will not replace us,” usually get denounced by everyone on both sides of the political spectrum. They will usually say that the ideas of the Nazis are totally antithetical to what we think America is.

Donald Trump has refused to engage in that morally at all, at least in his first statement. In fact, he did context-free analysis that suggested that there was some equivalence between both sides, which again is kind of the opposite of what a President normally does.

That’s why I think, after nearly a week of going over this, that Donald Trump’s response was ‘wrong.’ It was atypical, both for Trump himself and Presidents generally, and politicians overall.

When we have Jeff Sessions, who has troubling questions in his own past about race relations, taking the moral high ground and looking like the ‘law and order’ guy by calling what happened to Heather Hayer an act of domestic terrorism, it goes to show that standing against the Nazis was a simple thing that would have been universally praised if Trump had gone there with him.

There’s no sports metaphor to describe how easy it is for any President to denounce Nazism. It’s a slam dunk on a two-foot basket. It’s a four-inch putt. For a President who’s being praised by the Imperial Wizard of the KKK, and who has baggage on race issues (lawsuits about housing discrimination, the Central Park 5, insinuations about Barrack Obama), it’s not just an easy thing to do, it’s imperative. It’s also telling that Donald Trump once said of his rock hard base that he could shoot someone on 5th Avenue and not lose votes didn’t do this. If true, then there was no downside for him to denounce Nazis. But he didn’t, he suggested that there were good people there marching with the Nazis.

And I don’t think that can be argued. I don’t think a good person would look to their left and see a Klan robe, and look to their right and see a Nazi flag, and want to be associated with that kind of support. I don’t think that a good person would have stayed, even if they were a historian to whom the Civil War was their life’s work, and if they had met the love of their life in that park and proposed to them beneath the statue of Robert E. Lee.

That’s why I think Trump’s remarks were wrong because they were atypical for Trump, atypical for Presidents, atypical for politicians, and factually wrong in saying that there were good people marching with white supremacists on the issue of Confederate statue removal.

[Trigon]

Meanwhile in my home city of Boston, the counter-protesters were successful in giving the neo-fascists the boot: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2017/08/19/thousands-expected-at-boston-free-speech-rally-and-counter-protest/?utm_term=.5df7f1684313

They had to end their march early, since they were completely overwhelmed. Not a single shot was fired, and no one was run over. We just now have to keep this up all over the US so that they can end up in the dustbin of history where they belong!

[Oniya]

I have in-laws in the Boston area.  This is the sort of thing I'd expect from the home of JFK and John Adams.

[Skynet]

The "both sides" nonsense doesn't seem to be a new line of attack.

Not just political cartoons either: 50s and 60s political figures too.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/retropolis/wp/2017/08/16/politicians-blamed-both-sides-during-the-civil-rights-movement-kkk-and-the-naacp/

There are definitely problems within US antifa and Black Lives Matter, but both groups combined have nowhere near the amount of blood on their hands as white nationalists, nor are their stated goals anything close to theirs.

[Trigon]

There are definitely problems within US antifa and Black Lives Matter, but both groups combined have nowhere near the amount of blood on their hands as white nationalists, nor are their stated goals anything close to theirs.

Yeah, this is the one thing that seems to be lost on those who criticize both sides. Even if the Left is flawed (though examples are never elaborated on when you begin to demand them), the point is that the Right is even worse. Much worse, in fact, because they have already explicitly stated that their end goal is to create a new and violent form of hierarchy.

[Iniquitous]

I have, much like Regina, spent a lot of time looking at this situation with the idiot’s response.  Not because I had any doubt on how wrong he was, or because I needed to figure out why I believe him to be wrong.  My job deals with talking to people.  Usually, I have a pretty firm grip on the conversation and can keep it from venturing into territories that I’d really wish to stay out of.  But there are those times that I get blindsided by a customer and end up in shark infested waters.

It is those times, and the fact I live with a die hard Trump supporter, that has given me the chance to listen to every conceivable side to this tragedy.

Personally, I fully believe the idiot in the oval office is a closet racist.  He was raised by a card carrying Klansman (not sure if his mother was a full blown racist or not).  Sure, he could totally have a different view than his father did, but based upon his past, I suspect that he is.  He will never admit it - that would be political suicide and harm his brand in ways that I doubt he’d be able to repair.  An idiot he may be, but stupid he is not.

His response of ‘violence on both sides’ irks the shit out of me.  He was trying to take the middle ground so as to not piss off one side or the other.  He was trying to keep from having to take a stance.  That, to me, is cowardly.   You cannot go through life never taking a stance against the wrongs in the world.  Do I think he has a reason for trying to not take a stance?  You betcha.  And that reason became clear when David Duke started tweeting his thanks to Trump.  He knows that his largest group of supporters is the angry, racist white.   Again, he’s not stupid and his whole campaign was played straight to that demographic.

It has been pointed out that it would have been SO very easy for this idiot to condemn the hate groups with his racist Attorney General and be done with it.  He would have been praised for coming out against hate - and he does so love being praised.  Lives for it.   The fact that he actively avoided a situation where he would have been praised by the whole fecking world just gives me more reason to believe that he is, in fact, a racist and he was desperate to not piss off his largest group of supporters.

Now, over the past week I have heard so many theories - most of which make me wish I could either smack the person spewing them or beat my head in against the nearest hard surface.  Everything from mimicking the idiot’s stance of ‘well, the counter protesters shouldn’t have been there!’ to ‘George Soros paid the hate groups and the liberals to be there and clash!!’

I’ve heard everything from George Soros is trying to start a race war to this is the beginning of the country turning against the government.

And here’s where I stand.  Hate does not belong in our society.  We should never stand by and allow a group of people hell bent on inflicting terror, hate, and harm to succeed.  I stand by the phrase “see a nazi, punch a nazi”.  I think that is a perfectly fine response to have when you see some asshat waving the swastika or giving the salute.   I firmly believe in shouting longer and louder than them.  I believe that the US needs to adopt the same attitude towards any nazi propaganda that some of the European countries has…. Make it fecking illegal. Waving symbols of hate is not part of the first amendment.  Those symbols are an incitement to violence - and that is not part of free speech.  Terrorizing groups of people is not part of free speech.   

It is that stance that I have that makes me see red when I hear someone parrot what the idiot in the oval office said.  No.  This is not a time to try and point fingers at the counter protesters and blame THEM for the death of one of them.  There should have never been a permit given to the damn ignorant fools that wanted to spew their hate.

And as I see it right now - on Tuesday, Trump metaphorically stood in the middle of 5th Avenue and shot Heather Heyer. 

[Trigon]

I have in-laws in the Boston area.  This is the sort of thing I'd expect from the home of JFK and John Adams.

You may find this tweet rather amusing: https://mobile.twitter.com/evanmcmurry/status/898989750295470080

A comparison of the two crowds between the "free speech" protesters, and the much larger counter-protester crowd...

[Oniya]

I had to strip out the 'mobile' part, but yup.

[DominantPoet]

You may find this tweet rather amusing: https://mobile.twitter.com/evanmcmurry/status/898989750295470080

A comparison of the two crowds between the "free speech" protesters, and the much larger counter-protester crowd...

Wow. Makes sense now why the "free speech" rally there was nulled so quickly.

*crosses my fingers it's also an apt example of how the genuinely good people outnumber the bad in this world*

[Skynet]

Debating whether to make this video link its own thread or here. But since Charlottesville seems an active thread, why not here?

After the huge negative publicity, fascists and white nationalist sympathizers are going to go back into the shadows. But dog-whistle politics are a tried and true tactic, they're going to adapt new terms in an attempt to win over centrists and people inclined towards mainstream conservatism as well as folks who style themselves as liberals.

The above video is a very good explanation of the phenomena, and ways one can recognize and see-through crypto-fascist talking points. It's a good watch overall, but if you're pressed for time the beginning of common strategies starts at the 7:40 mark.