"I'm only voting for Romney because he's not Obama."

[Callie Del Noire]

I don't.  I'm in the process of moving my financial life offshore so that when this place falls apart and the goose-step becomes mandatory, I'll be somewhere far-off that no one cares about.

So, rather than invest in time and effort to reclaim your political system along with encouraging others, you bemoan that by acting and encouraging others to act that we are wasting our time not getting ready to run away.

And IF thing go as sour as you say, what is to keep the powers that be from chasing after folks like you?

Unite and stand, speak up.  Or die running and alone.

[Question Mark]

So, rather than invest in time and effort to reclaim your political system along with encouraging others, you bemoan that by acting and encouraging others to act that we are wasting our time not getting ready to run away.

And IF thing go as sour as you say, what is to keep the powers that be from chasing after folks like you?

Unite and stand, speak up.  Or die running and alone.

I wish I was still as idealistic as you are :(

I don't think it's nearly as bad as OSG thinks, but it's certainly not good!  There are ways we can reclaim the political system, but it takes time.  OWS and the Tea Party were good starts, but these kinds of movements need to be pursued and mobilized on a grander scale.  I think this election will be a turning point, for Congress at least.

[Oniya]

I don't.  I'm in the process of moving my financial life offshore so that when this place falls apart and the goose-step becomes mandatory, I'll be somewhere far-off that no one cares about.

I'm not so sure Callie meant 'voting'.

[OldSchoolGamer]

So, rather than invest in time and effort to reclaim your political system along with encouraging others, you bemoan that by acting and encouraging others to act that we are wasting our time not getting ready to run away.

We all have to choose the path that's best.  If I were still in my teens or twenties, who knows, I might be out there with OWS and whatnot.

And IF thing go as sour as you say, what is to keep the powers that be from chasing after folks like you?

Because their system will (quite literally) run out of gas.  They'll have their hands full just holding onto the United States and Canada once the oil stops flowing from the Middle East. 

Unite and stand, speak up.  Or die running and alone.

Some sociopolitical trends--like the imperial and collapse stages of big republics--are simply too big for any person to alter.  The herd will go where the herd goes.  And the best course of action to follow is simply not to be there when it does.  Ask any European Jew who saw the 1930s and 1940s.  Your best course of action was to LEAVE.

[Callie Del Noire]

I wish I was still as idealistic as you are :(

I don't think it's nearly as bad as OSG thinks, but it's certainly not good!  There are ways we can reclaim the political system, but it takes time.  OWS and the Tea Party were good starts, but these kinds of movements need to be pursued and mobilized on a grander scale.  I think this election will be a turning point, for Congress at least.

Pardon me for the next sentence.  Well DUH!   It took nearly fifty years of voter apathy in the wake of watergate, the schisming of the Democratic party between their Labor foundation/Progressive thinkers, 20 years of the GOP going from a party that would TALK to their rivals to one that is so ideologically bent and revisionist that I occasionally get Orwellian flashes of new history and a CHRONIC media presence that looks back fifty or sixty years to find that ONE shaming incident in a mans life

It took my whole LIFEspan plus some to get here. Unlike Oldschool, I don't think it's intentional I think we are in a sick system of our own creation.

You don't like the system? Don't blame cabals.. Don't blame anyone but ourselves. 

We, the people, made this mess. We, the people, have to bear that shame and fix it.

How many of us know our senators and congressmen? From what I learned this year damn few. Even fewer bother to find out what they doin our names.

One of the most impacting books of my childhood was starship troopers. Why? Because it taugh me the vote I have is a GODAMN DUTY.  Not a right. I owe it to the country to exercise it nd try to be as informed as possible.

Rant done. I think I'll take the day off from posting more. I don't have to agree with how a person votes but if you say my/your vote don't count you..maam/ sir are a fool.

Consider this..this year has seen more money spent than every election cycle since the century turned.  (at LEAST) EVERYONE running for office is trying to buy your vote, how you spend that vote will set the issues, platform, and stage for what they offer next cycle, then the next

It's a long road to fix the problems in our government. My family typically lives into their 90s. I hope that if people start now, I might see a government I can respect and be proud of before I die, but I damn sure want to do my part to help it come to be

[Hemingway]

I don't know half as much about third party and independent candidates as I'd like, but it seems to me that Nader would have been a sound choice. Unfortunately, that may no longer really be an option. And may never have been a realistic one.

I'm a pessimist about these things as well. I try not to, because very few things, if any at all, make me as angry as seeing all these problems ( and, really, it's all tied together - although it's related to US politics, these issues are global ) and not being able to do anything about them - hell, I'm reduced to being an observer and spouting my opinions on the internet, because I'm not even part of that political process.

But anyway I think voting for Obama because he's not Romney - or Romney because he's not Obama - in a sense undermines the democratic process. It's not really the fault of the voters, as the system is set up in such a way that unless you can mobilize a very large number of people, a vote that isn't for either the Democrats or the Republicans is wasted at best. Still, I think it undermines the process because if people did vote according to who they supported and not who they didn't support, that could, over time, bring about change.

At this point, I get a little conspiratorial, so take it for what you like. But I think the Democrats and the Republicans know this, and I think that's why you get some of the more insane proposals. That's why you get people like Palin. To keep people from voting according to long-term intersts in order to avoid regressing back to the previous century socially. At the risk of reducing this to a thought-terminating cliché, it's basically divide and rule. Whether it's the work of a nefarious cabal of faceless men in suits, or simply a result of people acting within the system as it's set up, it doesn't really make any difference.

[Kailen]

All I'm going to say is that if Romney becomes President, I'm hoping they put up a huge, impenetrable wall between the US and Europe. He's a buffoon, he made a complete idiot of himself when we came over here for a few weeks. The US really don't want someone that stupid representing them.

[Shjade]

Okay Oldschool.. I got to ask.. if you're so certain that the process is useless why do you even bother?

Dunno about him, but I don't.

I find voting meaningless when I can only vote for what's already on the ballot if I don't want anything that's on the ballot.

He's a buffoon, he made a complete idiot of himself when we came over here for a few weeks. The US really don't want someone that stupid representing them.

That didn't stop us with Bush Jr. :|

[Valerian]

Dunno about him, but I don't.

I find voting meaningless when I can only vote for what's already on the ballot if I don't want anything that's on the ballot.

As mentioned above, there's more than just voting when you're told to vote involved in the process.  For instance, if Scott Walker's proved anything, it's that it's deeply unwise to stop paying attention to one's elected representatives once they're in office.

[OldSchoolGamer]

One of the most impacting books of my childhood was starship troopers. Why? Because it taugh me the vote I have is a GODAMN DUTY.  Not a right. I owe it to the country to exercise it nd try to be as informed as possible.

A noble idea (and I'm being sincere, not sarcastic).  But unfortunately, unless you vote for a Bilderberg, your vote doesn't count.  The Bilderbergs took a page from Josef Stalin's playbook.  Stalin once remarked that those who vote decide nothing, but those who count the votes decide everything.

Take the Presidential election.  70% of the state votes for a Bilderberg-approved candidate (Democrat or Republican). 30% vote for an independent--let's say Libertarian.  Well, as it turns out, those who count the votes award 100% of the state's electors (you know, the elite few who really decide who the next President will be) to the Bilderbergs.  So the 30% who voted for an unapproved candidate get no voice.  Those who count the votes decide their votes don't count for anything.

[Oniya]

Of course, if 70% of the voters take a pass on their ability to vote because they think it's useless, then there's no telling whether the 'unapproved' candidate could have possibly won those votes.  I have a kid.  If I want the world to be better for her, I have to do something about it, instead of just declaring I'm going to take my toys and find some deserted island somewhere.

[Question Mark]

Of course, if 70% of the voters take a pass on their ability to vote because they think it's useless, then there's no telling whether the 'unapproved' candidate could have possibly won those votes.  I have a kid.  If I want the world to be better for her, I have to do something about it, instead of just declaring I'm going to take my toys and find some deserted island somewhere.

I don't have a kid, but this x1000.  As long as I live in this country, I'm going to be trying to fix it.

[OldSchoolGamer]

Of course, if 70% of the voters take a pass on their ability to vote because they think it's useless, then there's no telling whether the 'unapproved' candidate could have possibly won those votes.  I have a kid.  If I want the world to be better for her, I have to do something about it, instead of just declaring I'm going to take my toys and find some deserted island somewhere.

I for one will not be looking for any deserted islands.  There are plenty of places left in the world where one can live as a citizen and not a profit/loss center for corporations.  There is a whole planet outside the United States of America.

[Oniya]

I thought the Bilderbergs were supposed to be international?

[OldSchoolGamer]

I thought the Bilderbergs were supposed to be international?

They are.  But America is their focus now.  20 years or so from now, when they've drained America dry, they'll move on to China.  They're like locusts.  They feed on every available resource, and when they've stripped a place bare, they move on.

[Love And Submission]

We all have to choose the path that's best.  If I were still in my teens or twenties, who knows, I might be out there with OWS and whatnot.

Because their system will (quite literally) run out of gas.  They'll have their hands full just holding onto the United States and Canada once the oil stops flowing from the Middle East. 

Some sociopolitical trends--like the imperial and collapse stages of big republics--are simply too big for any person to alter.  The herd will go where the herd goes.  And the best course of action to follow is simply not to be there when it does.  Ask any European Jew who saw the 1930s and 1940s.  Your best course of action was to LEAVE.

Yes clearly that single historic event in  the history of all mankind is a gauge on how the world works more then seventy years ago. Not to mention Hitler failed. Hell , He failed down right spectacularly.
Not just are the jews still alive but they have there own country , one of the leading superpowers ended up having a black  president and  i'm pretty sure his approval rating is less then forty percent globally. I don't vote for the same reason that I don't belive in these vast conspiracies like the bilderberg group , bohemian groove and the Illuminati. It's something Sagan said.


"Consider again that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar", every "supreme leader", every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there - on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam."

That's it. Every leader from Hitler to Stalin to Churchill was just a man. A man living on a dot in the vast cosmos. You might think that man is great or wondrous or impeccable or evil , unjust and a villain  but he's just a teeny creature living on a mote of dust in the universe. Nothing he does really effects the cosmos at large. Electing Barack Obama or Mitt Romney or running away from your invisible boogeyman isn't going to effect the macrocosm.


We're ants. Living in ant hill , fighting for that ant hill despite the fact that we don't have that much time here anyways.


Once again take the Eastern jews of the 30s and 40s. Yes they died in one of the world's most horrific tragedies but what would've happen if they won? If they ousted Hitler before the holocaust started? They still would've died eventually.

De Gaulle , Churchill , Patton , Hitler , Rohm , Goebbbels all end up in the same place. The ground.



Entropy doesn't care about socialism , fascism  liberalism or conservatism. Everything dies period.

[Valerian]

They are.  But America is their focus now.  20 years or so from now, when they've drained America dry, they'll move on to China.  They're like locusts.  They feed on every available resource, and when they've stripped a place bare, they move on.

If the U.S. actually is stripped bare, do you really think the rest of the world will just go on with business as usual?  That's an honest question.  If a financial crisis in Greece can affect the entire first world, then it seems to me that letting the U.S. fall apart is a recipe for disaster pretty much everywhere.

In other words, I'm not sure you'll be able to go far enough for that plan to work.

[Oniya]

They are.  But America is their focus now.  20 years or so from now, when they've drained America dry, they'll move on to China.  They're like locusts.  They feed on every available resource, and when they've stripped a place bare, they move on.

'And I did not speak up, for I was not a...'

[OldSchoolGamer]

If the U.S. actually is stripped bare, do you really think the rest of the world will just go on with business as usual?  That's an honest question.  If a financial crisis in Greece can affect the entire first world, then it seems to me that letting the U.S. fall apart is a recipe for disaster pretty much everywhere.

In other words, I'm not sure you'll be able to go far enough for that plan to work.

Yes, there will be repercussions elsewhere.  But some areas are more interconnected than others.  I don't want to derail the thread into the finer details of survivalism and relocation, but there are plenty of areas that would get by decently to well even if the U.S. economy collapsed.  South Africa, for instance.  Brazil is another one--most of South America would keep going.

[Callie Del Noire]

They are.  But America is their focus now.  20 years or so from now, when they've drained America dry, they'll move on to China.  They're like locusts.  They feed on every available resource, and when they've stripped a place bare, they move on.

If you honestly think that any outside shadowy conspiracy would simply do this.. I'm sorry for you. And if you honestly thinkt hat the pragmatic leaders of China would allow them to do it to them.. I'm sorry.. you're missing the pragmatic nature and totally ruthless nature of the Chinese leadership. Good luck with your bananna farm wherever. I'm sorry you've elected to not help the future. We're well rid of someone who can't see beyond their own needs.

'And I did not speak up, for I was not a...'

And that is what we need to change. The Tea Party is 'ME.. me. me.. ' the idea of any socially redeeming program, policy or actions. We as a people aren't moving forward to help each other. We've failed in the basic social contract behind government. To help one another as a group.

[Question Mark]

People will do what they do.  I can't fault OSG for looking out for himself any more than I can fault Callie for having faith in the vote.  There's no real right or wrong here; it's easy to forget that sometimes.

[Callie Del Noire]

People will do what they do.  I can't fault OSG for looking out for himself any more than I can fault Callie for having faith in the vote.  There's no real right or wrong here; it's easy to forget that sometimes.

I don't have faith in the Vote.. I have HOPE that people can look beyond themselves and think to the future.

There is a difference.

Given the outlook today..and the Hope that the Obama/McCain race built. this one is very much more of a 'Me vs Anyone else' outlook. That depresses the hell out of me.

[Hemingway]

Yes clearly that single historic event in  the history of all mankind is a gauge on how the world works more then seventy years ago. Not to mention Hitler failed. Hell , He failed down right spectacularly.
Not just are the jews still alive but they have there own country , one of the leading superpowers ended up having a black  president and  i'm pretty sure his approval rating is less then forty percent globally. I don't vote for the same reason that I don't belive in these vast conspiracies like the bilderberg group , bohemian groove and the Illuminati. It's something Sagan said.

The rise, stagnation and eventual breakup of empires is actually a fairly well-established theme of human history. I don't think it's that much of a stretch, especially given developments in the past ten years, to suggest that the same thing is happening to the United States. That's not to say that the US is necessarily headed for some lawless, dystopian future. I think Johan Galtung's opinions on the future of the US empire versus the US republic are worth looking into. To summarize here, he argues that the fall of the US empire can lead to: "[R]elief from the burden of Empire control and maintenance... could lead to a blossoming of the US Republic".

As for not believing in vast conspiracies, neither do I. But that's simply because they're just a distraction from the real problem, and represent a non-reality-based reaction to a very real problem. Because reality is a lot simpler than that. It doesn't take some sort of vast organization. It's just a result of corporations pursuing the one thing they understand: Profit. It's what happens when there's no regulations, no restraints on what they can do, which is the case in large parts of the world.

I know I go on and on about this guy, but I think that anyone who's serious about these issues should listen to Chris Hedges. I'll link his Empire of Illusion talk here, because it about exactly this.

Edit: I just realized that the talk I linked is the first one I saw of Hedges, and it's ... actually not that good. Watch Death of the Liberal Class instead.

Death of the Liberal Class

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYCvSntOI5s

[Valerian]

People will do what they do.  I can't fault OSG for looking out for himself any more than I can fault Callie for having faith in the vote.  There's no real right or wrong here; it's easy to forget that sometimes.

There I must respectfully disagree.  I'm capable of being pretty cynical, but even so I refuse to accept the idea that looking out for oneself and looking out for everyone are mutually exclusive.

[OldSchoolGamer]

I don't have faith in the Vote.. I have HOPE that people can look beyond themselves and think to the future.

So do I.  But I don't believe a United States of America is required for that.

Even after Rome fell, generations lived among the ruins, growing up, having professions and callings, getting married, having families, growing old, living the human cycle.

We don't need an American Empire to live.

I'll agree it would be helpful if Americans reorganized the country along more sustainable, socially just lines.  But it's not a requirement.  And I don't intend on spending the remaining 20 to 30 or so fruitful years of my life trying to persuade grown people to pull their heads out of the corporations' rectums and do so.

I'd rather relocate to a community that already has these values, marry again, start a new family, and raise and educate a couple intelligent, free-thinking kids there.  I submit that is at least as valid a contribution to the future of the human race as standing outside the NYSE waiting to get arrested protesting against the American Empire.