"God needs to be back in our schools" says Texas...

[Twisted Crow]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2023/04/21/texas-bill-ten-commandments-public-schools-religion/

Granted, I've been raised down here for most of my life. So this being news isn't exactly surprising for most people. But this made me think a lot about even more cringefest arguments that I've lately been observing on mainstream social media. Twitter, especially.  ::)

Bleh...

I am not one that would claim to be especially religious, but I have also been of the "live-and-let-live" sort for many years. 'Who would I be to take away the hope or faith from another?' Generally speaking, I would typically let organized religion do its thing as long as it knew its role and left me alone. But I could not ignore this one.

To me, stuff like this strong-arms ideals like 'needing a bible in every classroom'. And I would argue that this already does just that. Cherry-picking on our appeals to tradition and how we opt to remember history is how our nations has (dubiously) harbored other immigrated cultures and religions? It doesn't sit right with me. And I make this sentiment while being generous about glossing over much of our nations' dark historical chapters.

So, anyway... Why The Ten Commandments? Specifically which bible needs to be in schools? Which God? Which canon and ethos of that incarnation belongs in the classroom? Because they still have had trouble coexisting in the world for ages, now. And this is just focusing on the scope of the Abrahamic God and (and for a moment) suspending the fact that many other religions exist. Which version belongs in school? Protestant God? Catholic God? Jewish God? Allah? Jehovah?

Of course, I believe this to be within the spectrum from foolishly ignorant to agressively flexing an arm in the interest of religious assimilation. I feel to support this is naivety at best and devious at worst. Not that I'm surprised, just disappointed that people still believe that something like this would 'fix everything wrong' with our country, these days.

[GloomCookie]

This is an old argument that's hung around since the 1962 Engel v. Vitale decision.

https://www.thefire.org/supreme-court/engel-et-al-v-vitale-et-al/opinions

The long and short of it is that Justice Hugo Black, who penned the majority opinion, basically acknowledged that the Federal government had no authority establishing the particular type of religion and that it should be left to the people and to avoid creating a union between church and state.

The reason for such arguments today are the same as back then. People who want to believe that their particular brand of Christianity is right, beyond acknowledging that the Abrahamic religion has three major sects (Christianity, Judaism, and Islam), with each sect having its own major divisions within.

Focusing entirely on Christianity, there are numerous types of Christianity within that, depending on the particular beliefs of the person and the role of the church within their lives. Catholicism believes heavily in the power of the church, while a Baptist believes it is a person's choice to allow Jesus into their hearts. The two are incompatible. Yet somehow there's a belief that the evils of the world would be cured by having a litany of prayers each morning to a deity that most children wouldn't understand. Those connections, Black commented, should be reserved for discussion with parents and preachers, not for a teacher.

The reason for the Ten Commandments is because it's hard to argue necessarily against. All three religions share some version of the Ten Commandments and most people in the United States understand the Ten Commandments through the lens of the King James Version of the bible. There is a genuine belief among some that it is the one true word of God, and were raised to accept this truth and no other. They don't know that there are different and more accurate translations, and even go so far as to write them off as being inaccurate and in some cases wrong. This is usually a case of ignorance because unfortunately, areas where religious fervor is highest also tend to lack in education spending, and almost never by choice.

Which is just one reason I find it hilarious that the Church of Satan loves to park a statue of Basphomet in Little Rock sometimes after a dude ran into the Ten Commandments erected in front of the State Legislature and the court said there was nothing prohibiting the Basphomet statue if the Ten Commandments was allowed. Strangely, there's less outrage over the Church of Satan XD

[Sara Nilsson]

Satanic Temple. Not Church of Satan Gloomy.

We always get confused with the Church of Satan. Not the same thing in the slightest. Sorry, pet peeve. They (CoS) believe in magic, we don't. For instance. So there are quite a few differences. :)

[GloomCookie]

Satanic Temple. Not Church of Satan Gloomy.

We always get confused with the Church of Satan. Not the same thing in the slightest. Sorry, pet peeve. They (CoS) believe in magic, we don't. For instance. So there are quite a few differences. :)

Sorry bun.

But yeah, it's always sorta amused me.

[Greenthorn]

Mind you, I am simply going off the subject because I'm not putting my email in to read the actual article.


I have a very solid opinion on public schools and religion. Religion does not belong there. As stated, although some religions share the same core beliefs, there are probably hundreds of factions of each larger religious group. How do we choose which particular faction, or even larger group is represented? IF we allow the larger faction of Christianity in, what is that saying to Islam/Buddhist/etc students... that their religion doesn't matter or is not important? If we do this, then we are giving the impression of superiority of one religion over another, and that is unacceptable. Funniest thing is that a large number of religions call for accepting those who are different.


I believe if a parent wants religion put into their child's education full time, they can utilize Catholic/Christian/Islam/etc focused schools or send their kids to "Sunday school". And this is coming from a hardcore Roman Catholic.

[Oniya]

I was going to hit on the main points of this article (which requires no registration), but realized that I'd be hitting most of the article.  Perhaps some enterprising Texas educator might run a course on the works of Pierre Bayle.

If I had to TL;DR it, I'd have to use this quote: 

It is no stranger for an atheist to live virtuously than it is strange for a Christian to live criminally. We see the latter sort of monster all the time, so why should we think the former is impossible? - Pierre Bayle, 'Various Thoughts on the Occasion of a Comet' (1682)

[TheGlyphstone]

I've always greatly disliked the way 'freedom of religion' has become synonymous with 'Christian supremacy' in certain circles, because I think the Founding Fathers wrote the 1st Amendment - literally the first line of said amendment - the way they did for a reason. I've read a little bit about the wars between faiths that pretty much devastated Europe on and off for the better part of a millennia, and as educated men for whom that was much more recent history they would have as well. Especially how many of the bloodiest faith conflicts were between divergent sects of one faith. The moment you place a specific faith at the top of the totem pole, you start the process where it can leverage the power of the state to suppress its competition - they didn't want American to repeat the mistakes of its European ancestors, and so they flatly equalized all faiths across the board under the law.

[GloomCookie]

The compromise is simple! Today, everyone brings a Star of David. Tomorrow, a statue of Basphomet, then a colander for our noodly lord...

We'll let everyone have a go!

[Greenthorn]

The compromise is simple! Today, everyone brings a Star of David. Tomorrow, a statue of Basphomet, then a colander for our noodly lord...

We'll let everyone have a go!

That would be the only acceptable solution!

[Oniya]

Little Oni's high school had a 'World Religion' class, and they actually did that sort of thing.  They spent a certain amount of time on quite a number of the major religions.  I forget if the polytheistic ones were covered, but she was prepared to contribute if they had been.

[Greenthorn]

Little Oni's high school had a 'World Religion' class, and they actually did that sort of thing.  They spent a certain amount of time on quite a number of the major religions.  I forget if the polytheistic ones were covered, but she was prepared to contribute if they had been.

That's actually really cool. I've never known of a school to actually delve into multiple religions, hell I've never known a high school to even have a World Religion class for that matter.


My own children are both baptized Catholic, but I stopped there and let them choose what they wanted to believe. One is atheist and the other is spiritual but not religious. On topic, I would not have been happy had their public schools had Christianity "built-in".

[Oniya]

We're in a fairly diverse area - one of her lunch-friends was Islamic, so she'd learned about Ramadan etiquette on a social level even before taking that class.  On the other hand, it was an elective, so the kids taking it were at least passably interested in such matters.

[Sara Nilsson]

Little Oni's high school had a 'World Religion' class, and they actually did that sort of thing.  They spent a certain amount of time on quite a number of the major religions.  I forget if the polytheistic ones were covered, but she was prepared to contribute if they had been.

In Sweden we have a subject in school called Religion where we do judt this. 7 8 and 9th grade, 40 mins a week apart from  8 th grade when it was 80. At least thats how it was for me, might have changed a little. Spent a few weeks on all the major religions, who they believe in, the history snd practises. I wouldnt say it was fun but it was useful. Lot of my classmates where questioning if they believe or not, iwasvone of the few outspoken atheists. But i think this is good to know, so when you meet someone you have an idea.

[The Lovely Tsaritsa]

If I still live in US, and go to school, that asks this? I would pray, very loud, to Odin Allfather, to smite my enemies in vengance. :-)

[Greenthorn]

In Sweden we have a subject in school called Religion where we do judt this. 7 8 and 9th grade, 40 mins a week apart from  8 th grade when it was 80. At least thats how it was for me, might have changed a little. Spent a few weeks on all the major religions, who they believe in, the history snd practises. I wouldnt say it was fun but it was useful. Lot of my classmates where questioning if they believe or not, iwasvone of the few outspoken atheists. But i think this is good to know, so when you meet someone you have an idea.

Again, I think this is a great thing for schools to do. I know in my area of the US, the only time you get any in-depth education on all major religions is in college/university, and it is an elective class. Perhaps if it were a required class, at any level, more people would be more accepting of others.

[GloomCookie]

It wouldn't be that hard to integrate, not really. Most religions are a byproduct of history and culture, and history is already being taught in schools. Showing how religions form and how their formation impacts beliefs could be integrated rather seamlessly. But, most schools will actively avoid doing so because there's already a huge stink made about teaching sex education in schools, how do you think something other than Christianity would go?

[Greenthorn]

It wouldn't be that hard to integrate, not really. Most religions are a byproduct of history and culture, and history is already being taught in schools. Showing how religions form and how their formation impacts beliefs could be integrated rather seamlessly. But, most schools will actively avoid doing so because there's already a huge stink made about teaching sex education in schools, how do you think something other than Christianity would go?

Off topic kinda: Sex education is a joke, at least the classes my kids had were. It was mixed in with "health" classes and there was only about a week's worth, so about 3 1/2 hrs, focused on actual sex education. I thought the world would be more progressive than it was when I was a child. Hell, I went to Catholic school back then and we got about a month's worth of sex ed classes. They were full of abstain, abstain, abstain, but we learned about anatomy of both sexes and how it all worked.

[Oniya]

I have to say that history in US schools (before college) is kinda crap as well.  Among other things, it is typically 'US-centered', so anything before 1492 is glossed over, the bit between 1492 and today is repeated in each grade (often with a focus-lens on 'this state' out of the 50), and even the 'World History' classes end up trying to compress the rest of human civilization (Egypt at the earliest) into about nine months.  US classes that mention the Crusades at that level are basically 'knights are good, Saracens are bad', compared to the more nuanced treatment given in the mere four episodes of Terry Jones' documentary.  (Yes, that Terry Jones.)

The most attention that would likely be paid to religion in a history class would possibly be that the Massachusetts colonists were Puritans, fleeing religious persecution, and the idea that the Spanish explorers that landed were 'spreading Christianity and civilization'.  (This would then raise an entirely new set of pearl-clutching from the Christian Nationalists as the utter white-washing of that portion of history was justifiably challenged.)

[TheGlyphstone]

And it'd likely entirely leave out that the Puritans were just as oppressive to everyone else once they got to be in charge instead.

[Iniquitous]

And it'd likely entirely leave out that the Puritans were just as oppressive to everyone else once they got to be in charge instead.

Please understand that the Puritans were NOT persecuted. They were pitching a fit because they could not be the majority in Parliament and decided to leave England. They felt that the Anglican Church was too permissive, too worldly, and too excessive. 

When you realize the truth and not the bs they passed down through history, it makes sense how they treated everyone else.

[TheGlyphstone]

That's sort of where I was going, yeah. Heck, Rhode Island exists because they were executing Quakers for not adhering to their own creed.

[GloomCookie]

The history of religion in the United States is a very complicated affair. It has left a lasting legacy that affects policy even today, and is one of the reasons that the United States is still very conservative compared to Europe, which is ironic given that the United States was at one point one of the scientific leaders of the world after World War 2. That would quickly drop off, but Operation Paperclip definitely helped push science to new heights. I just hope that we don't start sliding backwards.

[TheGlyphstone]

The way anti-vaccination sentiment seems to be metastasizing into other fields of scientific study, I'm not confident on that one just yet. Heck - I've brought it up in other discussions, but the idea that religion and scientific progress are somehow diametrically opposed is also a uniquely American phenomenon. Many of the most famous scientists and philosophers we can still name today were devout men, often literal priests or monks, who saw science not as going against their faith but reinforcing it by understanding how and why the world operated.

[Dice]

There is a quote from my History professor that I adore on this topic. (Australian History)

"Australia got the Convicts, America got the Puritans, Australia got the better end of that deal."

As an Aussie, that is more or less how I view the US as well. Your nation is built on a bunch of crazies as its foundation, then add the history of slavery, your body politic being quite right of centre (Your "Far left" seems pretty tame by EU standards.) and this culture of supressing anyone that does not conform to the norm and bullshit like brainwashing kids in schools hardly shocks me.

[Greenthorn]

There is a quote from my History professor that I adore on this topic. (Australian History)

"Australia got the Convicts, America got the Puritans, Australia got the better end of that deal."

As an Aussie, that is more or less how I view the US as well. Your nation is built on a bunch of crazies as its foundation, then add the history of slavery, your body politic being quite right of centre (Your "Far left" seems pretty tame by EU standards.) and this culture of supressing anyone that does not conform to the norm and bullshit like brainwashing kids in schools hardly shocks me.

The far left is not as tame as it may seem to outsiders. The far right are just really outspoken and sometimes overtly ridiculous, which makes for better news topics. This also applies to the suppression topic, it makes better news headlines.