bioshock infinite

[Inkidu]

...I think you might be misreading the article. He's fine with dropping the city. He's not fine with dropping Elizabeth, which is essentially what the ending does.

Mmm... even so I don't think they really dropped Elizabeth, because it's really not all about her in the end it's about Booker and her and I was very satisfied with the ending. Now if you're talking about mechanically where she's just there throwing you guns and whanot, yeah... that's light... especially form the earlier footage.

[animationprincessofOoo]

Mmm... even so I don't think they really dropped Elizabeth, because it's really not all about her in the end it's about Booker and her and I was very satisfied with the ending. Now if you're talking about mechanically where she's just there throwing you guns and whanot, yeah... that's light... especially form the earlier footage.

Yeah the earlier footage looks like she's almost a sorceress.  I also noticed they reduced certain.. ahem aspects.

[Chris Brady]

Definitely not her chest.

[Inkidu]

Yeah the earlier footage looks like she's almost a sorceress.  I also noticed they reduced certain.. ahem aspects.

Well given your relationship to her, that might not be so bad.

Though, that was probably Ken Levine. When people saw the footage there were a lot of comments about her um... aspects. Well, apparently he wanted people to like her for other things even though there was no real other other things to like her for, so he got miffed and apparently lowered the aspect ratio.

[animationprincessofOoo]

Well given your relationship to her, that might not be so bad.

Though, that was probably Ken Levine. When people saw the footage there were a lot of comments about her um... aspects. Well, apparently he wanted people to like her for other things even though there was no real other other things to like her for, so he got miffed and apparently lowered the aspect ratio.

I know. I for one was making jokes about banging Liz and when on the rooftops level I was saying things like "Yes I am Booker DeWitt False Shepard give me all your virgins!" Hahaha.

[Inkidu]

I have to give them credit. They did a good job of un-romanticizing the relationship.

Though... that doesn't stop the internet. :P

[animationprincessofOoo]

Yeah especially fanfiction. I think there is a current fanfic I'm reading about what happens when Songbird takes Liz to Comstock house.

[Inkidu]

Yeah especially fanfiction. I think there is a current fanfic I'm reading about what happens when Songbird takes Liz to Comstock house.

People wonder why I don't read it. :P

[Chris Brady]

Well given your relationship to her, that might not be so bad.

Though, that was probably Ken Levine. When people saw the footage there were a lot of comments about her um... aspects. Well, apparently he wanted people to like her for other things even though there was no real other other things to like her for, so he got miffed and apparently lowered the aspect ratio.

Honestly, I'm not entirely sure what the deal with Elizabeth was.  She's a nice piece of eyecandy, has some uses, but really, I've seen her type of plot device before, and she's not that revolutionary.

[Inkidu]

Honestly, I'm not entirely sure what the deal with Elizabeth was.  She's a nice piece of eyecandy, has some uses, but really, I've seen her type of plot device before, and she's not that revolutionary.

Yeah, but she's incredibly well-done.

[Chris Brady]

Yeah, but she's incredibly well-done.

In my gaming experience there are several that were.  Elizabeth isn't anything special in that regard.  I'm not saying that she's NOT well done.  She's interesting, well written and acted, not to mention nice to look at to boot, but nothing out of the ordinary for me.

[Shjade]

"Several that were" != "standard"

Being counted among a standout few characters is pretty much the definition of "out of the ordinary."

[animationprincessofOoo]

Yeah, but she's incredibly well-done.

Amen, and I missed Elizabeth so much when she was taken.. I missed my auto ammo.

[Koren]

Thats the thing as well that I think some people are missing as well. She wasnt just there to be a supply thing. She could only take resources from the environment. They could have just done away with that and gotten away with far less code

And I have to say I have never seen the detail and life that was put into Elizabeth in any other game character.

If you are saying she is so common please provide examples, I would love to see how they fair up and how their AI was handled, especially in older examples.

And personally I think the mechanics of the game other then being a shooter are very unlike CoD, especially the pacing. I think you'd find its more the way that certain games are set and how the pacing and tone of games is laid out in games these days. It's not a CoD specific think and picking apart the pacing of most games would show that. The only game I can think of that really goes away from that formula is Tomb Raider which tricks you into thinking its the end and then it not being so at all, and still tricks people even when warned which is surprisingly well done.
If you go and talk to many people who are exclusively CoD players or who love those mechanics and that pacing, I know many of them that found Bioshock unplayable.
To be honest Chris you sound awfully like someone who is just ignoring any possibility of it being even a decent game. I don't mean to offend by this, I just find your flatly aggressive attitude towards it confounding

Also for the people saying it didn't match up to the original, I was able to predict a lot more of the plot of the original game, then I was of Bioshock Infinite. Stuff like that is definitely a matter of perspective.
Also part of the theme in Bioshock Infinite was the idea of variables and constants, which is part of what pushes me towards the idea its more the story of the Luteces then Booker and Elizabeth. It doesn't matter what necklace you pick, the only thing that could be related to that, the notes, are a constant anyway. The few choices you make don't seem to matter because of the idea that it will play out how it does regardless. Its the opposite of Bioshock where choice was the defining concept, in this one its fate.
The ending points to this whole theme of choice vs fate, variables vs constants because of the whole 'there's always a man, a lighthouse, a city' thing.

Oh and apparently the coin can land on tails in that first meeting with the Lutece's, and Booker can randomly pick tails (which has been videoed) which is an interesting play in that even that isnt a constant but it still doesn't matter.
I really find this whole theme in the game quite fascinating, especially the way it ties into production as code is effectively variables and constants :)

Id be interested to see what people think of this article -  www.awesomeoutof10.com/features/the-necessity-of-extreme-violence-in-bioshock-infinite/
I had it posted in my original post here but I notice it mostly got ignored.

[Shjade]

Also part of the theme in Bioshock Infinite was the idea of variables and constants, which is part of what pushes me towards the idea its more the story of the Luteces then Booker and Elizabeth. It doesn't matter what necklace you pick, the only thing that could be related to that, the notes, are a constant anyway. The few choices you make don't seem to matter because of the idea that it will play out how it does regardless. Its the opposite of Bioshock where choice was the defining concept, in this one its fate.

First, while the Luteces play a key role in the story, it's not a story about them. Why? No emotional connection. No real "presence" in the story. They're a plot device and, like most such devices, the plot couldn't happen without them; that doesn't make it their story.

Second, even if the story were about them, the ending would still be broken. We don't see what they're doing next any more than we do Elizabeth so the same problem exists.

Third, if the choices you make don't matter, why bother playing the game? It'll resolve itself anyway without you. It also makes the ending that does exist meaningless: there's no point trying to prevent Comstock's creation at the baptism since he already exists, which means he's going to exist since clearly that's what's fated to happen and choices can't change fate. If you instead think the baptism changes all that then it is, indeed, about choice rather than fate. The original baptism suggests that as well: things are dramatically different between the two "core" worlds simply because in one a man chose to believe he could be washed clean of who he used to be and in another he rejected that idea. One choice made a tremendous difference. Your premise doesn't appear to hold up any way I look at it.

As an aside, in my playthrough Booker called tails but the coin landed heads.

Also, from the link you repeated, Koren:

I wouldn’t have a problem with such a game, just as I wouldn’t have a problem with a game that explored the Lutece twins as they dabbled in quantum physics, but those would be different games with different stories.

[animationprincessofOoo]

 :-) I am so glad this Topic has caused so many postings and reactions. I personally thought of the Letuces as cousins to Thompson and Thompson from TinTin.  Also what did everyone think of the Comstock House level where you go like seventy years into the future.

[Sabby]

This is how I look at it. If I were to write a book, and that books release was followed by an influx of half hour long 'ending explained' videos on Youtube, then I fucking failed in my task.

Pro-tip game writers. It's cool to have a story that naturally invites viewers to discuss further amongst themselves and discover deeper insight. If you leave those questions there, those who are so inclined will pursue them. Ya know what's not cool? Making it FUCKING MANDATORY to pursue them just to have a bloody ending at all.

Interpretation should add to a story, not provide one in the first place.

[Shjade]

This is how I look at it. If I were to write a book, and that books release was followed by an influx of half hour long 'ending explained' videos on Youtube, then I fucking failed in my task.

Sometimes, yes, but not necessarily. It would depend on why the explanations are there: is it that the ending doesn't make sense, or is it just very complex or densely written? Having a complicated ending isn't always a bad thing, nor is it taboo to leave things unexplained, at least some things.

In a case like this, though, where there's almost no resolution to anything and a pile of information is just kinda thrown at you all at once before everything abruptly ends? ...yeah, that's not a great execution.

[Sabby]

Yeah, the ending reminded me a lot of Alan Wake's ending. Just something something nothing.

[Inkidu]

Yeah, the ending reminded me a lot of Alan Wake's ending. Just something something nothing.

Actually I agree with the fact that they're similar, but they're not something something nothing.

Alan Wake is take on Reconstruction of storytelling. They give it a horror spin, but it's talking about the rules of writing, how the writer becomes bound into the rules of a particular story.

Bioshock Infinite is about Deconstruction. All the paths and changes big and small a story can take, and you explore all of them trying to literally find your happy ending. All wrapped up in high end physics and metaphysics.

Now this is one element of two fairly deep stories, but it's an important meta element. There's also some more basic human ideas like sacrifice and perseverance, and redemption and whatnot, but I like the meta stuff. :3

[Sabby]

I actually meant the way it was handled, not the message xD all this rush to get somewhere, then it just mumbles and stops.

[Inkidu]

I actually meant the way it was handled, not the message xD all this rush to get somewhere, then it just mumbles and stops.

Sort of, I actually found it pretty good pacing overall. That was my problem with the Darksiders series. I found the pacing just really terrible.

[Chris Brady]

"Several that were" != "standard"

Being counted among a standout few characters is pretty much the definition of "out of the ordinary."

The few times I had a similar character, Elizabeth did not stand out for me.  This is a personal opinion and statement, not fact and I apologize if I the other impression.

[Shjade]

As someone asked you previously, we're curious: what characters do you feel were done better?

[Chris Brady]

Bear in mind I'm focusing on story/narrative wise.  And the first one that comes to mind was System Shock...  2?  I think.  That was a mind job, but very well done.

Angel from Borderlands 1 and 2.

The fact that Elizabeth does 'other things' like give out ammo and open locks (among other things) is pointless to me.  It's a secondary mechanic that could be done by the player, but they decided to make a secondary character do it for story reasons.