Magic: the Gathering - Return to Ravnica

[Hemingway]

Hello, I'm Hemingway, and I recently got addicted to Magic. A friend of mine wanted to introduce me to the game to have someone to play casually with, but instead created a monster. It's apparently a game I can be quite good at.

Well, since I just started out and I'm most familiar with the current series, and since threads exist for older blocks, I figured I'd make one specifically for Return to Ravnica.

Now, I've told you about my sick addiction. Allow me to tell you a bit about what I play. Because I've been quite lucky. I have a Boros ( red / white ) deck that contains practically nothing but cards that make opponents go "oh, god..." and is highly playable. Unfortunately, that's not really my favorite. What I really enjoy is Blue. More specifically, I've tried to build a Dimir ( blue / black ) deck which combines strong elements of control ( quite possibly the most entertaining part of Magic, to me, is telling my opponent sorry, but I'm not going to let you play that card ), and quite effective milling of the opponent's deck. It doesn't really work that well - yet - but I'm constantly tweaking it.

With that particular deck, I got lucky enough to draw Lazav, the Dimir Mastermind. Who, aside from having a cool name, shapeshifts into any enemy creature that ends up in the enemy's graveyard, by any means. When your deck is basically about putting enemy cards into the enemy graveyard, that means a lot of shapeshifting potential - even on the same turn - and a lot of fun.

I'm still working on that Dimir deck, however. And I would be thrilled if anyone had any advice on that. Otherwise, I'd be curious to hear of other peoples' addictions.

[SinXAzgard21]

I spent roughly 30 bucks total building my deck that is all Ravnica.  Me and Goldie have tons of cards though so we could make just about anything deck wise.... But I'm trying to just play standard myself.

[Tsenta]

I don't have many RTR cards, I bought a 2013 core and AVR deckbox. Pondering a GTC box cause Gideon will REALLY run well in my Orzhov deck.

[Hemingway]

I'm curious, which Gideon is that? What makes him work well?

[Callie Del Noire]

Hmm.. free and clear.. nearly 16 years.

Somewhere at home is a big shoe box full of some alphas, betas, one or two Arabian nights and a butt load of antiquities cards.

I used to play a white/blue deck with a lot of relic lands for mana and some nasty relics. (Armagedon Clock, COP: Artifacts, Dingus Eggs and so on)

[Question Mark]

Ooooh, I love MTG!

I'm a casual player, but man if I don't love the game.  Unfortunately, I'm also a poor uni student, so I can't really afford to buy lots of cards.  I usually just get a pair of boosters or $10 intro pack for every set, and maintain a capable, albeit ramshackle, deck.

I'm your typical "good guy," and I tend to roleplay as such when I play, so I'm attracted to the generally benevolent themes in the white and green colors.  I used to be monowhite, with a love affair for lifegain, tokens, battlefield control (can you say Oblivion Ring?), but Selesnya (green/white) is starting to grow on me, pun somewhat ambiguously intended.  Throw in lifegain and token spam, and I'm seriously considering splurging $30 and throwing together a green/white deck.

Hmm.. free and clear.. nearly 16 years.

Somewhere at home is a big shoe box full of some alphas, betas, one or two Arabian nights and a butt load of antiquities cards.

I used to play a white/blue deck with a lot of relic lands for mana and some nasty relics. (Armagedon Clock, COP: Artifacts, Dingus Eggs and so on)

:O  Do you have any Mox?

[SinXAzgard21]

Ooooh, I love MTG!

I'm a casual player, but man if I don't love the game.  Unfortunately, I'm also a poor uni student, so I can't really afford to buy lots of cards.  I usually just get a pair of boosters or $10 intro pack for every block, and maintain a capable, albeit ramshackle, deck.

I'm your typical "good guy," and I tend to roleplay as such when I play, so I'm attracted to the generally benevolent themes in the white and green colors.  I used to be monowhite, with a love affair for lifegain, tokens, battlefield control (can you say Oblivion Ring?), but Selesnya (green/white) is starting to grow on me, pun somewhat ambiguously intended.  Throw in lifegain and token spam, and I'm seriously considering splurging $30 and throwing together a green/white deck.

:O  Do you have any Mox?

Honestly if you don't spend much on cards it would be cheaper to just buy individual cards.

[Question Mark]

Honestly if you don't spend much on cards it would be cheaper to just buy individual cards.

I appreciate your tip, but I gotta be honest; that would take a lot of fun out of the game for me.

While I enjoy the actual duels, I get a huge kick out of the flavor and side components of MTG.  For example, I tend to value thematic cohesion as much as in-game effectiveness when building a deck.  I feel like designing a deck to be the most efficient just sucks it dry of entertainment.  Throwing a deck together from the myriad cards I've collected from boosters, making due with what I've got, ultimately makes me feel more proud of my decks.

I suppose that's why I'm primarily a casual player.  Those sort of shenanigans would not hold in a tournament setting!

[Funguy81]

I haven't bought any new cards since the 2012 core set. ate away at my wallet a bit to much. lol.

But I would have to say my favorite deck I have created is a white "holy" deck I put together. its designed using the Kor's to transfer damage to one another, or to creatures that have protection from almost any colors, though truly effective against black. Damn near impossible to kill them. funny thing is I didnt really find out the theme until i saw every creature is a knight, angel, or spirit...which fits the "holy" theme perfectly.

I missed playing the game though, and I haven't really found anyone that still plays the game the way its meant suppose to be. I'm not sure what anyone else feels on this, but I can't stand players who make decks full of proxies or print out the cards from the net. The way i see it a deck should be built based on the cards you actually have. I wouldn't care if your decks are put together when alpha was around, but at least have the cards.

[Hemingway]

I can relate to building a fun deck rather than an efficient one. It's basically why I have two decks. I have a highly capable Boros deck, which I built from an event deck I bought, and added a bunch of really good cards I drew by chance, and some cards my girlfriend lent me. It's a straight aggro deck, though, and not really what I most like playing.

That's why I have my Dimir deck. I bought an intro pack for House Dimir, but I found that unsatisfying. By now, there are only bits and pieces of that left. What I've turned it into is basically a milling / control deck, where about half the cards are spells. I think a little under half of those are dedicated to milling cards, and a little under half are counterspells. Some do a little of both. Because I'm a control freak, and I don't want to play a game where I'm not in charge of what the opponent gets to do. I'm actually having great fun with this deck, but due to its slow nature, it doesn't work half the time. It would get absolutely eviscerated by my Boros deck, for instance. I mean, game-lost-on-turn-4-eviscerated.

[Tsenta]

I'm curious, which Gideon is that? What makes him work well?

Gideon, Champion of Justice. Since I have a few high mana cards (Obzedat and Avacyn, Angel of Hope). Gideon's good for getting high loyalty counters against aggro decks then use his 0 attack or -10 to clear the field. Basically a trollish stall against aggro decks until I can get Avacyn out to make my entire field indestructible. Or pair Obzedat with Cloudshift to exile him 3 - 4 times in a turn do 8 dmg/turn and gain that much life with just Obzedat.


I just got MTGO and I'm putting together a pretty beast G/W aggro deck just from starter cards/free cards from a few friends and bots. It's going to be beastly.

[Hemingway]

Gideon, Champion of Justice. Since I have a few high mana cards (Obzedat and Avacyn, Angel of Hope). Gideon's good for getting high loyalty counters against aggro decks then use his 0 attack or -10 to clear the field. Basically a trollish stall against aggro decks until I can get Avacyn out to make my entire field indestructible. Or pair Obzedat with Cloudshift to exile him 3 - 4 times in a turn do 8 dmg/turn and gain that much life with just Obzedat.

Isn't it -15?

Also, Gideon exiles everything, which is ... why I don't really see the point in his ultimate ability. You're setting yourself back, too, and Avacyn costs 8 mana. You're not going to get that very fast after exiling all permanents. It seems like if you have a 15/15 indestructible soldier, you're already in a pretty good spot.

Gideon just puzzles me in general. If he weren't such a handsome bastard...

[Geeklet]

THere is an MTG thread and I didnt know? *gasp*

And Gideon exiles everything but himself. Sure, it may set you back on creatures/lands as well, but you still have a planeswalker that can become a creature, which is more than the other person has. So unless they can pull up a new boardstate out of their ass, they will lose.

[Hemingway]

Sure, sure, but ... that's assuming you can get him up to 16 loyalty, or more. I suppose that would be doable against an aggro deck with lots of little creature, but ... I'm still not sold on him. It's not like that green/red Planeswalker Domri Rade, who's just an absolute godsend/I-win button for any aggro deck ( +1 let's you peek at the top card of your library and draw it if it's a creature, -2 is a pit fight thing, and -7 gives you an emblem which gives your creatures double strike, hexproof, trample, and haste ).

Ahh, but I don't know.

[Geeklet]

He's good, just so different than any other, it is hard to evaluate him, I agree.

[SinXAzgard21]

No planes walkers for my deck.  I gots me some chalice of life/death, elixir of immortality, luxodon smiter and a Trostanic Selesnya's Voice.

[Tsenta]

Tbh mana cost isn't hard, if I scrap Orzhov and play Selesnya. Elves are like infimana. Pair it up with Garruk, Primal Hunter and you've got some cheap easy aggro too.

[Hemingway]

Sure - but then why bother with Gideon? ;D

Tell me about the elves, though. Arbor Elf + Forest + Verdant Haven is a mean, mean combination. Well, it doesn't help when you get nothing to play with all that mana, but ... When mana is basically the primary concern of my Blue / Black deck, I do get jealous.

[Geeklet]

What do you mean, nothing to do? Play Soul of the Harvest. Big trampling dude... who lets you draw cards when you play creatures. Make a bunch of mana, play a bunch of creatures, then lay down a Craterhoof Behemoth and RAWR all over your opponent. :P

[Hemingway]

If it was my comment you were referring to, I mean in those cases where you get unlucky and none of your beefy creatures come up. You know, you've got ten mana lined up, and you draw a 1/1 elf. It's like, come on.

Giant green creatures is why I always keep Grisly Spectacle handy. It's an instant ( an expensive one, but Arcane Melee takes care of that! ), it destroys creatures, and it mills cards equal to their power. In cases where I've got that, a 9/9 creature isn't a huge threat, it's like a neatly wrapped present.

Of course, usually I don't have it when I need it, and I get trampled all over. D:

[Ephiral]

My local scene tends to play with very relaxed allowable-cards rules - pretty much anything non-limited and non-banned goes. My personal favourite deck is a U/B oddity based mostly on Alara with some Zendikar, Scars, and Innistrad woven in, and a touch of other stuff as far back as 4th. It's primarily milling with a bit of damage and a fair chunk of control/destruction woven in - the basic goal is to let me say "That's a nice everything you've got there...". Would love to play a game or two via Cockatrice, if anyone's up.

[Geeklet]

At my store, its usually either some type of constructed format for FNM (Usually Standard, but some people are trying to get Modern going), or, my favorite, EDH. I LOOOOVE me some EDH.

[HockeyGod]

Randomly coincidental:

https://elliquiy.com/forums/index.php?topic=128247.msg8019096#msg8019096

[Tsenta]

Sure - but then why bother with Gideon? ;D

Tell me about the elves, though. Arbor Elf + Forest + Verdant Haven is a mean, mean combination. Well, it doesn't help when you get nothing to play with all that mana, but ... When mana is basically the primary concern of my Blue / Black deck, I do get jealous.

Arbor Elf, Llanwar Elves, Wood Elves, Sylvan Ranger. A few mana fetches. You could easily drop a high mana creature out way earlier than normal.

I'm thinking of going mono green with elf ramps (aka boost mana up) then instand/equip/sorcery spam. To add a little early game oomph maybe some Elven Pipers and two Emrakul in the deck.

[Hemingway]

Arbor Elf, Llanwar Elves, Wood Elves, Sylvan Ranger. A few mana fetches. You could easily drop a high mana creature out way earlier than normal.

I'm thinking of going mono green with elf ramps (aka boost mana up) then instand/equip/sorcery spam. To add a little early game oomph maybe some Elven Pipers and two Emrakul in the deck.

The beauty of the Arbor Elf + Verdant Haven combination is that the can then untap the forest you've enchanted, giving you not just one additional mana, but two, for a total of four from a single land card. Which is, in a word, sick.

[Hemingway]

So, Dragon's Maze is out. I attended a pre-release event, did pretty well, and drew a whole bunch of great cards.

It seems it's my destiny to play Orzhov. For the pre-release draft, I got both Teysa ( Orzhov champion ) and a Blood Baron of Vizkopa ( B/W mythical ). I then opened some more boosters later on, and got one more. Of each. In addition, I got a whole bunch of other decent Orzhov cards.

Too bad, because what I really want to try now is Azorius. What can I say - I like control. Orzhov are too one-dimensional to really appeal to me. It seems like the only way you really win in a pure Orzhov build is by stealing life. Granted, my Boros deck wins by trampling over my enemy, but my Dimir deck has several possible win conditions, and strong control. I like that. Now, I could build an Orzhov / Azorius deck. I just don't really see the point - they don't really go that well together in my eyes. In either case splashing in Dimir seems like a better choice.

Which is sort of what I'm thinking of doing with Azorius: A strong base of Azorius cards, with some Dimir blue cards splashed in. Mainly Voidwalk. Because Hexproof fliers with Voidwalk ciphered onto them, coupled with creates that detain upon entering the battlefield ... should terrify just about anyone.

Though not as much as a 20/20 unblockable Consuming Abberation. Man, that was fun.

[Geeklet]

If you want control, I'd stick with Orzhov. Because quite frankly, the vast majority of the Azorius cards aren't really geared towards control (though there are a few powerful exceptions. Supreme Verdict, Sphinx's Revelation, etc). At least in drafts, Azorious is more about tempo and flyers. Though if we are moving out of just the pure RTR block, Esper is pretty good for control (blue, white, black)

[Hemingway]

Well, I don't normally play drafts. The deck I want to build, is something like a disruptive combo deck, if I am to be very precise. The idea is to have a healthy dose of detains and counterspells, and to deliver death by flying creatures ( I absolutely love Ascended Lawmage since the prerelease event I played ). I haven't actually tried it out, but this is my plan so far.

Orzhov, like I said, just isn't that interesting to me. I also don't know how to make it interesting. I like them thematically, and they have some great cards. They're even proving fairly effective for me, despite the fact my Orzhov deck is very much a work in progress. But in the end, the Orzhov playstyle just isn't that exciting to me.

Basically, I fell in love with disruptive combo decks when one of my friends built a Delver deck for me. I've been trying to build something similar ever since. The only reason I don't just build my own Delver deck, is I want to make something that's mine.

On a side note: Dimir are still very much my favorite guild, in all ways. I was fortunate enough to draw Mirko Vosk, the Mind Drinker. My god I love that guy. Mirko Vosk + Way of the Thief + Duskmantle Guildmage is a punishing combination, game-ending in a few turns if not dealt with. It's particularly vicious against decks that include ramping, because ... well, it follows that if you take out land cards of your deck at a higher rate than other cards, the average number of cards between the remaining lands grows.

[SinXAzgard21]

Slivers are coming back in the 2014 block.

[Hemingway]

I saw Facebook going batshit over it. To me they look sort of like Innistrad werewolves. On steroids.

I'm just glad I generally play with people I know, and people I know can be, ah, 'discouraged' from playing cheesy decks.

[Geeklet]

Slivers are coming back in the 2014 block.

......god dammit.

[SinXAzgard21]

......god dammit.

I'm happy.

[Hemingway]

I'm putting together the ultimate blue/red burn/counterspell deck, and I could use some advice.

It's going to contain a lot of counterspells, obviously. I'm also looking to put in some redirects, since I mainly intend to use this to punish my friend for making a similar deck ( thinking she can beat me at my own game, hah! ). Obviously I'll be putting in quite a lot of burn spells. I'll only be using a few creatures - probably in the range of 8 - 10 ( Invisible Stalkers and some Cipher spells, notably Hidden Strings and Last Thoughts, are my aim ).

I'm interested to know if anyone has any suggestions for spells that would provide some sort of unique utility for a deck like this.

[Geeklet]

Augur of Bolas. Yes, its a creature, but its cheap, has a decent toughness to block early creatures, and gets you an additional spell usually.

[Hemingway]

I appreciate the advice. I ... have to think about this guy.

On the one hand, he's great because 1) if he's vapor snagged or unsummoned, he can be played again, which makes that a poor solution, and 2) he requires a Lightning Bolt to kill.

On the other hand, he's a 1/3, and the sort of deck I'm aiming to face here is the typical Delver deck. Meaning, for one thing, that he likely can't block the creatures being thrown at me ( unblockable or flying ), and his power makes him no threat at all. In other words, chances are he'd end up just sitting on the board, doing a single point of damage each turn, and taking up space in my deck.

I think I need to weigh the pros and cons carefully here, but definitely thanks for the tips. I'd be happy to take more, if anyone's got them.

[Geeklet]

You say Delver, and I think of Delver of Secrets, Snapcaster Mage, and Geist of St. Traft. The Augur can block all three, unless the delver flips. The angel from the Geist still gets through as well, but the actual ground guy still gets blocked. So I think to help more, I'd really need to see more of a decklist, know what sort of restrictions you are facing, and what sort of decks you plan to play against.

[Hemingway]

"Unless the Delver flips" is the key concern here. My friend, who has built herself a ... well, it's not a classic Delver deck, I only use that as an illustration. It's more of a cross between a Delver deck ( Delver and Runechanter's Pike, with Ponder to make absolutely sure the Delver flips, usually as early as turn 3 ) and a very aggressive Izzet deck full of cheap burn spells ( Lightning Bolt, Devil's Play ), spells that copy other spells, counterspells, and Vapor Snag. It's a real nightmare to play against. Because, yeah, my friend has a fairly large collection of cards, and no compunctions over playing cards that aren't tournament legal. Which is why I'm not planning on limiting myself in any way, either. Hell, if you know any banned cards that'd be useful, I'd love it. Just for the sake of playing banned cards.

[Geeklet]

If that is the case, I would get a playset of Mental Misstep ASAP. Counter target spell with a CMC of 1, castable for 1 blue phyrexian, which means you can pay 2 life instead of paying a blue, which means you can cast it even when you have no mana available. Stops Delver, bolt, ponder, snag, among possibly other things that might give you fits. Depending on how much they rely on the Delver, I'd consider a couple Gut Shot as well. 1 red phyrexian to deal 1 damage to target creature or player. Kill it before it flips. Other than those, best thing I could suggest is cheap counterspells like mana leak or spell pierce. And honestly, Unless you are playing Pike yourself, or have some nasty equipment (like Swords of X and Y), I'd ditch the invisible stalkers for something that hurts more.

[Hemingway]

Mental Misstep looks positively delicious, exactly the sort of thing I'm looking for. Gut Shot also looks good, but I may settle for Electrickery, since I have a playset of them already, and the difference is ... manageable.

What I planned with the Invisible Stalkers is to use Dimir Ciphers. I suppose I should look into some other hexproofs - that's sort of essential for keeping them on the board. I could always include Way of the Thief for +2/+0 and unblockable - always useful.

Definitely great advice. Thanks!

Edit: Lone Revenant looks tasty ... I think I may even have one lying around...

Edit 2: Holy balls. I just noticed the card Essence Harvest ( target player loses life equal to the greatest power among creatures you control, and you gain that much life ). I've been toying with the idea of using a card like that, Dying Wish, from Gatecrash. However, Dying Wish requires your creature to die, where Essence Harvest doesn't. Anyway, it has the potential to be ... quite ... powerful ... in a Dimir milling deck. Which is my favorite deck of all. I don't think I have to explain the potential damage Essence Harvest can do when a Consuming Aberration can easily get to 20/20.