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Ask an Atheist--An Opportunity for Engagement

Started by HannibalBarca, January 22, 2017, 02:52:19 PM

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Regina Minx

Quote from: TheGlyphstone on February 09, 2018, 12:28:51 PM
Wouldn't paganism be the most varied by definition, since it in itself is sort of an umbrella term for pretty much any religious tradition outside of the Big Five - Christianity/Judaism/Islam/Hinduism/Buddhism? I've seen every cultural pantheon from Norse to Egyptian to Polynesian, plus nontheistic/semitheistic faiths like Wicca, all classified as 'paganism' to some degree.

This is spot on identifying a boundary problem with a label like 'pagan.'

It's actually worse in a historical context, since pagan was, by definition, the box into which early Christians tended to anyone not a Christian or a Jew. (Also, there was way more variety in the beliefs and practices among early Christians than exists even today, but I digress). So not only could you have members of the polytheistic Roman votive cults considered pagans, but you could tradents of the philosophical schools such as Stoics and highly irreligious people like Epicureans labeled as pagan.

HannibalBarca

Pagan was a term coined in the early years of Christianity to identify a non-Christian.  Islam has a similar word--infidel.  Judaism does too--gentile.  These are exclusionary terms, and thus negative, but many pagans have adopted their term to use to identify themselves, so unlike infidel and gentile, pagan can have a positive connotation as well.
“Those who lack drama in their
lives strive to invent it.”   ― Terry Masters
"It is only when we place hurdles too high to jump
before our characters, that they learn how to fly."  --  Me
Owed/current posts
Sigs by Ritsu

Vergil Tanner

I actually used to work with a Wiccan. I only found out when I offhandedly mentioned that I don't believe that magic did anything, and he got super offended and was like "Well, I'm a Wiccan and I believe it does." And then he went quiet as if I'd just insinuated that his mother was employed in the business of taking cock on a regular basis. I was like "...that's...good for you and actually super interesting because I've never met a Wiccan before (that I know of) and I'm really curious, but that doesn't change the fact that I don't believe in magic or star signs or miridian lines. I'm not trying to be a dick." I mean, hell, I wish magic was real. If magic was real, and you could demonstrate it, I'd be the first one in line to learn how to do it because that shit would be awesome. >.>

I think he was automatically assuming that I'd be making some kind of judgement about him or something. Pagans and Wiccans both tend to have the problem where people think they understand it when they don't, and of course it gets vilified in so many TV shows and movies that I can imagine that some Wiccans and Pagans feel a bit defensive. Not to mention that in highly religious countries like the USA, a lot of people believe the poor publicity that they've spent centuries consuming. It isn't so much a problem in the UK, since religion isn't as important in daily life or in politics as the USA, but the remnants still exist. Of course, as Hannibal just said, Pagan is more of just a label the Church used to refer to anybody who didn't follow Christianity. Ironically enough, modern Christianity has a lot of Pagan ideas in it that they didn't start with. The obvious one would be Christmas; Jesus wasn't (supposedly) born on the 25th of December (there's actually some evidence in the bible that he was (supposedly) born during the summer, but that's a different conversation), but the church moved it to coincide with the Winter Solstice as part of an effort to assimilate "Pagans" into their ranks in order to grow. Hell, even Easter has its roots in paganism, as a celebration of the Fertility and Love goddess Astarte (Ishtar), whose symbols were eggs and rabbits (I wonder why >.>). People used to decorate the eggs, and then perform ritual sexual acts often with "Temple Prostitutes," which honestly sounds like a hell of a lot of fun. xD And obviously there's Halloween, but that's more of a cultural holiday than a religious one and I don't know anybody who thinks that Halloween is a Christian holiday.
I mean, going further, some of the basic Christian beliefs come from "Pagans" from the early days and earlier of Christianity. But then, it's obvious that any new religion would take influence from the surrounding culture, so this isn't news. I mean, the idea of an Immortal Soul was around long before Christianity, as was the idea of Heaven and Hell (in different forms, naturally).

I'm getting off topic. What was my point again? Fucked if I know >.<

Anyway, I guess my rambling is basically to say that Paganism gets a bad rep with most people who listen only to what they hear from movies, TV and church, but that more secular countries don't really have that problem. It really stems from Christianity (And, in other parts of the world, Islam) being so harsh on Pagans as they tried to enforce their own dominance. I personally would love to know more about Paganism, if I could find somebody who believes it to explain it to me. I might be an Atheist, but I'm always interested in learning about new cultures and belief systems. Partly because...well, you never know which one might turn out to be true! :P
Vergil's Faceclaim Archive; For All Your Character Model Seeking Needs!


Men in general judge more by the sense of sight than by that of touch, because everyone can see but few can test by feeling. Everyone sees what you seem to be, few know what you really are; and those few do not dare take a stand against the general opinion. Therefore it is unnecessary to have all the qualities I have enumerated, but it is very necessary to appear to have them. And I shall dare to say this also, that to have them and always observe them is injurious, and that to appear to have them is useful; to appear merciful, faithful, humane, religious, upright, and be so, but with a mind so framed that should you require not to be so, you may be able and know how to change to the opposite.

Dubbed the "Oath of Drake,"
A noble philosophy; I adhere...for now.

Ari the Witch

Quote from: TheGlyphstone on February 09, 2018, 12:28:51 PM
Wouldn't paganism be the most varied by definition, since it in itself is sort of an umbrella term for pretty much any religious tradition outside of the Big Five - Christianity/Judaism/Islam/Hinduism/Buddhism? I've seen every cultural pantheon from Norse to Egyptian to Polynesian, plus nontheistic/semitheistic faiths like Wicca, all classified as 'paganism' to some degree.
Panganism is somewhat of an umbrella term for any polytheistic religion. I think the ones who commented before me explained it better, though. Heh~
Quote from: Regina Minx on February 09, 2018, 01:18:18 PM
This is spot on identifying a boundary problem with a label like 'pagan.'

It's actually worse in a historical context, since pagan was, by definition, the box into which early Christians tended to anyone not a Christian or a Jew. (Also, there was way more variety in the beliefs and practices among early Christians than exists even today, but I digress). So not only could you have members of the polytheistic Roman votive cults considered pagans, but you could tradents of the philosophical schools such as Stoics and highly irreligious people like Epicureans labeled as pagan.
Wasn't it the same way with heathens? I heard heathen in that context more often than pagan in history and religion classes, having gone to Catholic schools all through elementary, middle, and high.
Quote from: Vergil Tanner on February 09, 2018, 07:52:12 PM
I actually used to work with a Wiccan. I only found out when I offhandedly mentioned that I don't believe that magic did anything, and he got super offended and was like "Well, I'm a Wiccan and I believe it does." And then he went quiet as if I'd just insinuated that his mother was employed in the business of taking cock on a regular basis. I was like "...that's...good for you and actually super interesting because I've never met a Wiccan before (that I know of) and I'm really curious, but that doesn't change the fact that I don't believe in magic or star signs or miridian lines. I'm not trying to be a dick." I mean, hell, I wish magic was real. If magic was real, and you could demonstrate it, I'd be the first one in line to learn how to do it because that shit would be awesome. >.>

I think he was automatically assuming that I'd be making some kind of judgement about him or something. Pagans and Wiccans both tend to have the problem where people think they understand it when they don't, and of course it gets vilified in so many TV shows and movies that I can imagine that some Wiccans and Pagans feel a bit defensive. Not to mention that in highly religious countries like the USA, a lot of people believe the poor publicity that they've spent centuries consuming. It isn't so much a problem in the UK, since religion isn't as important in daily life or in politics as the USA, but the remnants still exist. Of course, as Hannibal just said, Pagan is more of just a label the Church used to refer to anybody who didn't follow Christianity. Ironically enough, modern Christianity has a lot of Pagan ideas in it that they didn't start with. The obvious one would be Christmas; Jesus wasn't (supposedly) born on the 25th of December (there's actually some evidence in the bible that he was (supposedly) born during the summer, but that's a different conversation), but the church moved it to coincide with the Winter Solstice as part of an effort to assimilate "Pagans" into their ranks in order to grow. Hell, even Easter has its roots in paganism, as a celebration of the Fertility and Love goddess Astarte (Ishtar), whose symbols were eggs and rabbits (I wonder why >.>). People used to decorate the eggs, and then perform ritual sexual acts often with "Temple Prostitutes," which honestly sounds like a hell of a lot of fun. xD And obviously there's Halloween, but that's more of a cultural holiday than a religious one and I don't know anybody who thinks that Halloween is a Christian holiday.
I mean, going further, some of the basic Christian beliefs come from "Pagans" from the early days and earlier of Christianity. But then, it's obvious that any new religion would take influence from the surrounding culture, so this isn't news. I mean, the idea of an Immortal Soul was around long before Christianity, as was the idea of Heaven and Hell (in different forms, naturally).

I'm getting off topic. What was my point again? Fucked if I know >.<

Anyway, I guess my rambling is basically to say that Paganism gets a bad rep with most people who listen only to what they hear from movies, TV and church, but that more secular countries don't really have that problem. It really stems from Christianity (And, in other parts of the world, Islam) being so harsh on Pagans as they tried to enforce their own dominance. I personally would love to know more about Paganism, if I could find somebody who believes it to explain it to me. I might be an Atheist, but I'm always interested in learning about new cultures and belief systems. Partly because...well, you never know which one might turn out to be true! :P

Magick works absolutely nothing like on the telly or in movies or even in books. It is much more subtle in its workings. Belief can be a powerful thing, just like confidence. When I made my first sigil, drawing it onto my arm every day back when I worked in a doughnut place, it had the unexpected and lovely effect of my shift earning better tips so that we all had more tip money at the end of the shift. It was meant as Good Fortune and Memory, and the good fortune I had meant initially had nothing to do with money. It can work in such unexpected ways, for better or for worse. :3

I'm laughing so hard that you mention Christianity's Pagan roots! I remember this funny but highly informative vod on FB that Mum had sent me last December with this guy explaining every little facet regarding Paganism in Christmas and what you mention about it were a few of the things he'd pointed out. It was really good to watch.

You are so very right about not knowing what is true regarding religions! As a Wiccan, it is a belief that there is no One True Path, and so to each their own. I suggest asking around on the Pagan Amino. The people there are mostly very friendly and would be happy to give you the information you seek on any matter of Paganism.

Vergil Tanner

Quote from: Arian Sinclair on February 12, 2018, 03:02:09 PM
Wasn't it the same way with heathens? I heard heathen in that context more often than pagan in history and religion classes, having gone to Catholic schools all through elementary, middle, and high.

It was the same way with "Atheist" as well. Originally, the Romans called the Christians Atheists because they didn't believe in the Roman Gods :P


Quote from: Arian Sinclair on February 12, 2018, 03:02:09 PMMagick works absolutely nothing like on the telly or in movies or even in books. It is much more subtle in its workings.

I knooooow, but I can fantasise about throwing annoying people across the room, can't I? :P


Quote from: Arian Sinclair on February 12, 2018, 03:02:09 PMBelief can be a powerful thing, just like confidence. When I made my first sigil, drawing it onto my arm every day back when I worked in a doughnut place, it had the unexpected and lovely effect of my shift earning better tips so that we all had more tip money at the end of the shift. It was meant as Good Fortune and Memory, and the good fortune I had meant initially had nothing to do with money. It can work in such unexpected ways, for better or for worse. :3

I'm gonna put on my Skeptic Hat for a moment, so please don't take any of this personally, I'm not trying to attack you or your beliefs. :P
So...how did you draw the connection between the glyph and the tips? I mean, how did you determine that the glyph was the cause of the rise in tips, directly? How did you determine that it wasn't simply that the Glyph had the placebo effect of making you more comfortable and confident, and that was what earned you tips? Or, how do you know that you aren't accidentally engaging in a bit of Confirmation Bias, and that you aren't doing that thing that humans are very good at doing and remembering the hits but forgetting the misses? Or are you saying that the Glyph simply made you believe that you were lucky, and that had the effect of making you more confident, rather the the glyph actively working to make you luckier? If that's the case, then...why wouldn't you just be confident without the glyph? What makes the glyph different to lucky socks when you go bowling, for example? Why bother with the Glyph at all, if you know that you have that confidence and comfort within you without the use of magic? I'm just trying to understand here what kind of magic you believe in, because as I understand it even within the Wiccan community, people have different views on how magic actually works. I know one person who believes that it's useful as an almost placebo effect where the "magic" just has the effect of drawing out positive thoughts and feelings, and other people who believe that it's the magic itself that blesses or curses people. So I guess what I'm getting at is...what "type" of effect do you believe in, and how did you determine that your understanding of how and if it works is accurate? :-)
And I'm genuinely asking, here. I want to believe as many true things and as few false things as possible, so if there is something to Wicca...well, I wanna know! :P


Quote from: Arian Sinclair on February 12, 2018, 03:02:09 PMI'm laughing so hard that you mention Christianity's Pagan roots! I remember this funny but highly informative vod on FB that Mum had sent me last December with this guy explaining every little facet regarding Paganism in Christmas and what you mention about it were a few of the things he'd pointed out. It was really good to watch.

Oh definitely! The funniest thing about it is that Christians back in like...100 CE would likely look at modern Christians and call them Heathens and Heretics. :P Hell, back then, the New Testament didn't even really exist. xD


Quote from: Arian Sinclair on February 12, 2018, 03:02:09 PMYou are so very right about not knowing what is true regarding religions! As a Wiccan, it is a belief that there is no One True Path, and so to each their own. I suggest asking around on the Pagan Amino. The people there are mostly very friendly and would be happy to give you the information you seek on any matter of Paganism.
[/color][/font]

Hmm, I might do that! :D

Also, side note:

COMIC SAAAAANS! *shakes fist*
Vergil's Faceclaim Archive; For All Your Character Model Seeking Needs!


Men in general judge more by the sense of sight than by that of touch, because everyone can see but few can test by feeling. Everyone sees what you seem to be, few know what you really are; and those few do not dare take a stand against the general opinion. Therefore it is unnecessary to have all the qualities I have enumerated, but it is very necessary to appear to have them. And I shall dare to say this also, that to have them and always observe them is injurious, and that to appear to have them is useful; to appear merciful, faithful, humane, religious, upright, and be so, but with a mind so framed that should you require not to be so, you may be able and know how to change to the opposite.

Dubbed the "Oath of Drake,"
A noble philosophy; I adhere...for now.

Ari the Witch

Quote from: Vergil Tanner on February 12, 2018, 07:23:29 PM
It was the same way with "Atheist" as well. Originally, the Romans called the Christians Atheists because they didn't believe in the Roman Gods :P


I knooooow, but I can fantasise about throwing annoying people across the room, can't I? :P


I'm gonna put on my Skeptic Hat for a moment, so please don't take any of this personally, I'm not trying to attack you or your beliefs. :P
So...how did you draw the connection between the glyph and the tips? I mean, how did you determine that the glyph was the cause of the rise in tips, directly? How did you determine that it wasn't simply that the Glyph had the placebo effect of making you more comfortable and confident, and that was what earned you tips? Or, how do you know that you aren't accidentally engaging in a bit of Confirmation Bias, and that you aren't doing that thing that humans are very good at doing and remembering the hits but forgetting the misses? Or are you saying that the Glyph simply made you believe that you were lucky, and that had the effect of making you more confident, rather the the glyph actively working to make you luckier? If that's the case, then...why wouldn't you just be confident without the glyph? What makes the glyph different to lucky socks when you go bowling, for example? Why bother with the Glyph at all, if you know that you have that confidence and comfort within you without the use of magic? I'm just trying to understand here what kind of magic you believe in, because as I understand it even within the Wiccan community, people have different views on how magic actually works. I know one person who believes that it's useful as an almost placebo effect where the "magic" just has the effect of drawing out positive thoughts and feelings, and other people who believe that it's the magic itself that blesses or curses people. So I guess what I'm getting at is...what "type" of effect do you believe in, and how did you determine that your understanding of how and if it works is accurate? :-)
And I'm genuinely asking, here. I want to believe as many true things and as few false things as possible, so if there is something to Wicca...well, I wanna know! :P


Oh definitely! The funniest thing about it is that Christians back in like...100 CE would likely look at modern Christians and call them Heathens and Heretics. :P Hell, back then, the New Testament didn't even really exist. xD


Hmm, I might do that! :D

Also, side note:

COMIC SAAAAANS! *shakes fist*

Some of the Roman gods were stolen from the Greeks with name changes and a few minor/major differences. XD

Pffft~ I believe you are thinking of telekinesis, which doesn't even involve magick, usually. I forget the name of the movie, but now I'm thinking of it. It's about a little girl who is really smart. Her parents(I forget whether they were adoptive parents or not.) were not very good people and failed to see how smart she was as she grew, scolding her for making a mess with some food without at all noticing she'd spelled her name with it before she was even toddler age. They sent her to this really strict school with a horrible principal, but one of her teachers was super nice and saw her intelligence unlike her parents. Anyhow, as she aged, she became capable of telekinesis if she concentrated enough. By the end of the movie, the nice teacher was her new guardian/mother. Funny how after typing all that, I remember it is called Matilda. XD

For one, the few times I didn't draw in on my wrist, our tips went back down to very little like before I started to draw it on my wrist. It also didn't work with any of the other things I tended to draw on my arms with the sharpies at work. Also, it had nothing to do with luck and was intended to help me better remember people's orders. I believe luck and fortune are similar but different things. I believe in different forms of magick and that the placebo effect type of thing you mentioned is a possibility in and of itself, but also as an aide in magick because the more open and receptive one is to it, the higher chance of it working will be and vice versa. Another thing, I do not like sigils being referred to as glyphs. I'm not sure why, but it just bothers me for some as of yet unknown reason. Anyhow, it's good to ask questions and have some skepticism. To believe everything you're told at face value isn't likely to get anyone very far in life. I take no offence at all to your Skeptic Hat. :3

I call many of the modern Christians hypocrites with all I've seen. The majority never even actually read the Bible they claim to live by except small parts because Catholic schools make you. You'd think they'd read the thing if they're going to "live by the book".

I made a really good friend there who is teaching me sign language over Skype! She was amazed by how fast I learned the alphabet in sign. XD

But it is the font of my favourite Skelly! XD Comic Sans the bonefide Skeleton! XD XD XD

Vergil Tanner

Quote from: Arian Sinclair on February 12, 2018, 08:51:11 PM
Some of the Roman gods were stolen from the Greeks with name changes and a few minor/major differences. XD

Sometimes they didn't even bother to change the names. :P I think...Apollo and Astarte had the same names in Roman mythology, among others. :P


Quote from: Arian Sinclair on February 12, 2018, 08:51:11 PMPffft~ I believe you are thinking of telekinesis, which doesn't even involve magick, usually.

Well, magic being magic, it depends on the medium you're looking at. For example, Harry Potter uses magic to mimick telekinesis (Accio), and in Supernatural, Witches use their magic to grant themselves limited telekinesis, which is functionally identical to what Angels and Demons can do, but gained through a different way. It's like the DnD difference of "Can you do this as a Supernatural Ability, or have you cast a spell that does it." But now we're delving into the indisputably fictional realms of how magic is portrayed and used, haha.


Quote from: Arian Sinclair on February 12, 2018, 08:51:11 PMI forget the name of the movie, but now I'm thinking of it. It's about a little girl who is really smart. Her parents(I forget whether they were adoptive parents or not.) were not very good people and failed to see how smart she was as she grew, scolding her for making a mess with some food without at all noticing she'd spelled her name with it before she was even toddler age. They sent her to this really strict school with a horrible principal, but one of her teachers was super nice and saw her intelligence unlike her parents. Anyhow, as she aged, she became capable of telekinesis if she concentrated enough. By the end of the movie, the nice teacher was her new guardian/mother. Funny how after typing all that, I remember it is called Matilda. XD

I literally got to "Horrible Principle" and I was like "...You're talking about Matilda." xD


Quote from: Arian Sinclair on February 12, 2018, 08:51:11 PMFor one, the few times I didn't draw in on my wrist, our tips went back down to very little like before I started to draw it on my wrist. It also didn't work with any of the other things I tended to draw on my arms with the sharpies at work. Also, it had nothing to do with luck and was intended to help me better remember people's orders. I believe luck and fortune are similar but different things. I believe in different forms of magick and that the placebo effect type of thing you mentioned is a possibility in and of itself, but also as an aide in magick because the more open and receptive one is to it, the higher chance of it working will be and vice versa.

Well, ok. Assuming for a moment that you're correct and that you're not forgetting any off shifts you had with the Sigil (obviously there's no way to determine that now, so we'll grant that for the sake of argument), you would still believe that this Sigil had the effect of good fortune, so it's entirely possible that you accidentally "corrupted" the results by acting in a different way without even realising it. Kinda like how if you tell people what you're looking for in a study, some of them will unconsciously try to "Help," y'know? So there's no way to determine whether it was the Sigil, or a Placebo effect triggered by the Sigil. Hell, it could even be something as mundane as "The customers saw the Sigil and thought it looked cool, and that made them more receptive to tipping." Unlikely, perhaps, but possible. I guess, off the top of my head, a decent experiment would be to go outside of your workplace where nobody knows you or your beliefs, and find a person who doesn't know what the Sigil is. Give them the Sigil - either say that you're running an experiment, or just somehow put it on them without them noticing in a place where other people won't see it - and see if their tips change noticeably when the Sigil is off or on. Deceptive, yes, but...when studying the Placebo effect, it's kind of a necessity that they don't know what you're doing. Of course, even if you then came up with results that showed conclusively that the tips were always higher when the Sigil was on the person, you'd then have an unexplained phenomenon, and you'd have to work out experiments to try and figure out the precise mechanism, perhaps testing other Sigils in the same way to work out if they all work as advertised, or if this one Sigil was gotten "right" by happenstance rather than anything fundamentally correct about Wicca. I'm not a scientist so I'm certain that there are some flaws in that methodology, but I'm just brainstorming at the moment.


Quote from: Arian Sinclair on February 12, 2018, 08:51:11 PMAnother thing, I do not like sigils being referred to as glyphs. I'm not sure why, but it just bothers me for some as of yet unknown reason.

Eh, if it bothers you, I'll address them as Sigils. No skin off my nose. :P


Quote from: Arian Sinclair on February 12, 2018, 08:51:11 PMAnyhow, it's good to ask questions and have some skepticism. To believe everything you're told at face value isn't likely to get anyone very far in life. I take no offence at all to your Skeptic Hat. :3

Well, it always helps to preface. Even within this thread, some people come in and state their beliefs, then get offended and defensive when their beliefs are questioned and critiqued. So it always helps to preempt it with "I don't mean to offend, so if I say something that upsets you, I apologise in advance." Or something like that :P


Quote from: Arian Sinclair on February 12, 2018, 08:51:11 PMI call many of the modern Christians hypocrites with all I've seen. The majority never even actually read the Bible they claim to live by except small parts because Catholic schools make you. You'd think they'd read the thing if they're going to "live by the book".

Oh yeah. Most of the time - in my experience - in any given conversation between a Christian and an Atheist in the West, the atheist is the one who knows the bible better. Hell, a lot of the time, you'll find that the atheist is an atheist because they read the bible. I mean, that's not the case with me - I was never really a theist; I was a deist for a while, then transitioned to atheism - but then, I really enjoy these conversations, sooooo I ended up reading the bible as research and...well, y'know, just in case it had any kind of weight or substance to it (Spoiler: It didn't).


Quote from: Arian Sinclair on February 12, 2018, 08:51:11 PMI made a really good friend there who is teaching me sign language over Skype! She was amazed by how fast I learned the alphabet in sign. XD

I'm the opposite. I suck at learning languages. It's just not how my brain works, I guess. xD


Quote from: Arian Sinclair on February 12, 2018, 08:51:11 PMBut it is the font of my favourite Skelly! XD Comic Sans the bonefide Skeleton! XD XD XD

I maintain my position that Comic Sans Sucks :P
Vergil's Faceclaim Archive; For All Your Character Model Seeking Needs!


Men in general judge more by the sense of sight than by that of touch, because everyone can see but few can test by feeling. Everyone sees what you seem to be, few know what you really are; and those few do not dare take a stand against the general opinion. Therefore it is unnecessary to have all the qualities I have enumerated, but it is very necessary to appear to have them. And I shall dare to say this also, that to have them and always observe them is injurious, and that to appear to have them is useful; to appear merciful, faithful, humane, religious, upright, and be so, but with a mind so framed that should you require not to be so, you may be able and know how to change to the opposite.

Dubbed the "Oath of Drake,"
A noble philosophy; I adhere...for now.

HannibalBarca

QuoteBut it is the font of my favourite Skelly! XD Comic Sans the bonefide Skeleton! XD XD XD


I maintain my position that Comic Sans Sucks :P

But Sans from Undertale does not suck :D  And watching my son fight him in genocide run, he's pretty kickass :P
“Those who lack drama in their
lives strive to invent it.”   ― Terry Masters
"It is only when we place hurdles too high to jump
before our characters, that they learn how to fly."  --  Me
Owed/current posts
Sigs by Ritsu

Vergil Tanner

Yeah, but have you seen his stand up routine? That sucks.

*lame punchline drumroll*
Vergil's Faceclaim Archive; For All Your Character Model Seeking Needs!


Men in general judge more by the sense of sight than by that of touch, because everyone can see but few can test by feeling. Everyone sees what you seem to be, few know what you really are; and those few do not dare take a stand against the general opinion. Therefore it is unnecessary to have all the qualities I have enumerated, but it is very necessary to appear to have them. And I shall dare to say this also, that to have them and always observe them is injurious, and that to appear to have them is useful; to appear merciful, faithful, humane, religious, upright, and be so, but with a mind so framed that should you require not to be so, you may be able and know how to change to the opposite.

Dubbed the "Oath of Drake,"
A noble philosophy; I adhere...for now.

Ari the Witch

Quote from: Vergil Tanner on February 12, 2018, 09:33:59 PM
Sometimes they didn't even bother to change the names. :P I think...Apollo and Astarte had the same names in Roman mythology, among others. :P


Well, magic being magic, it depends on the medium you're looking at. For example, Harry Potter uses magic to mimick telekinesis (Accio), and in Supernatural, Witches use their magic to grant themselves limited telekinesis, which is functionally identical to what Angels and Demons can do, but gained through a different way. It's like the DnD difference of "Can you do this as a Supernatural Ability, or have you cast a spell that does it." But now we're delving into the indisputably fictional realms of how magic is portrayed and used, haha.


I literally got to "Horrible Principle" and I was like "...You're talking about Matilda." xD


Well, ok. Assuming for a moment that you're correct and that you're not forgetting any off shifts you had with the Sigil (obviously there's no way to determine that now, so we'll grant that for the sake of argument), you would still believe that this Sigil had the effect of good fortune, so it's entirely possible that you accidentally "corrupted" the results by acting in a different way without even realising it. Kinda like how if you tell people what you're looking for in a study, some of them will unconsciously try to "Help," y'know? So there's no way to determine whether it was the Sigil, or a Placebo effect triggered by the Sigil. Hell, it could even be something as mundane as "The customers saw the Sigil and thought it looked cool, and that made them more receptive to tipping." Unlikely, perhaps, but possible. I guess, off the top of my head, a decent experiment would be to go outside of your workplace where nobody knows you or your beliefs, and find a person who doesn't know what the Sigil is. Give them the Sigil - either say that you're running an experiment, or just somehow put it on them without them noticing in a place where other people won't see it - and see if their tips change noticeably when the Sigil is off or on. Deceptive, yes, but...when studying the Placebo effect, it's kind of a necessity that they don't know what you're doing. Of course, even if you then came up with results that showed conclusively that the tips were always higher when the Sigil was on the person, you'd then have an unexplained phenomenon, and you'd have to work out experiments to try and figure out the precise mechanism, perhaps testing other Sigils in the same way to work out if they all work as advertised, or if this one Sigil was gotten "right" by happenstance rather than anything fundamentally correct about Wicca. I'm not a scientist so I'm certain that there are some flaws in that methodology, but I'm just brainstorming at the moment.


Eh, if it bothers you, I'll address them as Sigils. No skin off my nose. :P


Well, it always helps to preface. Even within this thread, some people come in and state their beliefs, then get offended and defensive when their beliefs are questioned and critiqued. So it always helps to preempt it with "I don't mean to offend, so if I say something that upsets you, I apologise in advance." Or something like that :P


Oh yeah. Most of the time - in my experience - in any given conversation between a Christian and an Atheist in the West, the atheist is the one who knows the bible better. Hell, a lot of the time, you'll find that the atheist is an atheist because they read the bible. I mean, that's not the case with me - I was never really a theist; I was a deist for a while, then transitioned to atheism - but then, I really enjoy these conversations, sooooo I ended up reading the bible as research and...well, y'know, just in case it had any kind of weight or substance to it (Spoiler: It didn't).


I'm the opposite. I suck at learning languages. It's just not how my brain works, I guess. xD


I maintain my position that Comic Sans Sucks :P

XD I can never unsee the image of Mickey Mouse's dog ruling the Underworld that randomly popped into my head after learning Hades's Roman side is Pluto when I was five.

And then there are Pokémon to factor I to the whole mediums aspect just because. XD Going that into it makes me thing of how mystiokineses is just another name for magic.

XD It took me until after I was done typing up that entire paragraph for it to actually come back to me, minus the last sentence stating such. XD

The thing is, I never really act any differently unless I'm around my Mum, who scares the shit out of me. So that isn't it. As for people seeing it and thinking it was cool or whatever, not a damn person ever noticed it and a lot of the extra tippage was given to my coworkers, ruling that out. On top of it all, the irony is that it cannot work without belief in it because the negative energy of believing it won't will just negate it's effect, though neutrality on it may have a minimal effect.
As I said, it wasn't meant initially as it ended up being, so it was happenstance in a way. It did work as intended memory wise, though. As for other sigils, I did create another one for vitality because I was so tired for a time, and it worked quite well so that I did not need any coffee to keep me up and made me feel much more energetic. For the one we've gotten to talking about, one of my coworkers had commented to keep drawing it on my wrist because she noticed the connection between when I drew it on my wrist and the larger tips despite knowing absolutely nothing about what it was. I am open about my spirituality, but don't go around with "Hey! I did this thing that has everything to do with what I believe!" or whatnot.

I really have no idea why. It just gives me a vibe I don't like. It's nothing major, just something I felt would be better to mention than to keep quiet only to internally freak over.

I've noticed that a lot. I remember while waiting to clock into work one day I used Bible quotes to shut up someone trying to use it to say God put animals on Earth for humans to eat. Um, no, dumbass. God placed them initially as companions to man if you actually read it. And humans didn't begin to eat animals until long after Adam and Eve were banned from Eden, not until some time after Cain killed Abel if I remember correctly. Her response was "Wow. She knows the Bible." She didn't want to continue that conversation anymore because she saw I knew what I was talking about. She was pretty amazed I knew the contents of the Bible despite not being Christian. People tend to underestimate my knowledge just because I'm not quite normal, childish, and have ADHD. Talk about insulting a person's intelligence when they're smarter. XD I don't push veganism on other, but hell if I'm going to let it slide when other try pushing shit on me to try getting me to eat that which I refuse to.

Well, it's easier because memory is better with motion, at least for me and others with ADHD. It goes into physical memory, kind of like learning to ride a bike in a way.

I maintain my love of punderful skeletons with the name of a font. XD

quote author=HannibalBarca link=topic=262049.msg13918198#msg13918198 date=1518494126]
But Sans from Undertale does not suck :D  And watching my son fight him in genocide run, he's pretty kickass :P
[/quote]

Yes! Until he…goes to Grillby's. "Paps, do you want anything?" *tears of a thousand breaking hearts* That was the saddest moment of the game.

Quote from: Vergil Tanner on February 12, 2018, 10:02:56 PM
Yeah, but have you seen his stand up routine? That sucks.

*lame punchline drumroll*

Your stand up joke seems to have fallen flat. XD Let's hear the crickets for my lame pun.

Vergil Tanner

Quote from: Arian Sinclair on February 12, 2018, 10:18:39 PM

XD I can never unsee the image of Mickey Mouse's dog ruling the Underworld that randomly popped into my head after learning Hades's Roman side is Pluto when I was five.

...I had the same image xD


Quote from: Arian Sinclair on February 12, 2018, 10:18:39 PMAnd then there are Pokémon to factor I to the whole mediums aspect just because. XD Going that into it makes me thing of how mystiokineses is just another name for magic.

Exactly! And then you have to think about the other kinds of "Magic" from places like Skyrim, which have entirely different schools! :P


Quote from: Arian Sinclair on February 12, 2018, 10:18:39 PMThe thing is, I never really act any differently unless I'm around my Mum, who scares the shit out of me. So that isn't it.

Well that's the thing; you aren't the most reliable person to realise when you're acting differently. People act differently without even realising it a lot of the time, so even if you don't notice, it's entirely possible that you're more confident or friendly when you have the symbol on and you don't notice.


Quote from: Arian Sinclair on February 12, 2018, 10:18:39 PMAs for people seeing it and thinking it was cool or whatever, not a damn person ever noticed it

Well, I did acknowledge that it was far fetched :P I included it for the sake of completeness :P

Quote from: Arian Sinclair on February 12, 2018, 10:18:39 PMand a lot of the extra tippage was given to my coworkers, ruling that out.

Well ok. Let's approach it from a different angle; I assume that you wear this sigil most if not all of the days you work, right? I mean, I know that's an assumption, but if you believe that it gives you more tips, then obviously you would want to wear it as often as possible. So is it simply possible that it was coincidence? That the few times you didn't wear it, you happened to have a slow day, or customers who were either too shitty or too broke to give decent tips, and you made the connection in your head? I suppose a better experiment would be to go two weeks without using it, and compare that to two weeks whilst using it. But then, you'd have to somehow control for the Placebo Effect of you unknowingly acting different without the sigil on you. Do you know how many tips people get on days that you're not there, and how that compares to when you are there?

I mean, there's an interesting experiment done with pigeons, where if they hit a button, they get a treat. They then decided to make it so that it was every random number of button presses, it would dispense a treat. And what they found was that the pigeons would hit the button and nothing would happen, and then they might do something random - like hop to one foot, or take a few steps back, or look over their right shoulder - and then hit the button, and if it dispensed a treat, they'd then believe that it was the action that got them the treat, so they'd do it again. The button happened to randomly dispense a treat, so they then had that belief solidified. Now, no matter how often they looked over their shoulder and hit the button without a treat, they'd always do it because they had that belief and they'd forget the misses. Now, human psychology is a little more complex, but from my perspective, that kind of belief is more likely than "Magic is real." Again, I don't mean any offence by that, just...saying how it looks from my perspective.


Quote from: Arian Sinclair on February 12, 2018, 10:18:39 PMOn top of it all, the irony is that it cannot work without belief in it because the negative energy of believing it won't will just negate it's effect, though neutrality on it may have a minimal effect.

Well I mean...that looks like you have a nice unfalsifiable belief there, then. "Oh, it won't work if you don't believe in it." "....then how do we determine if it actually works beyond the placebo?" So if you can't demonstrate that it works absent the possibility of a placebo, why should I, as a skeptic, believe it? Because the exact same argument could be used for Faith Healing, or Chakras, or Homeopathy. Y'know?


Quote from: Arian Sinclair on February 12, 2018, 10:18:39 PMAs I said, it wasn't meant initially as it ended up being, so it was happenstance in a way. It did work as intended memory wise, though. As for other sigils, I did create another one for vitality because I was so tired for a time, and it worked quite well so that I did not need any coffee to keep me up and made me feel much more energetic. For the one we've gotten to talking about, one of my coworkers had commented to keep drawing it on my wrist because she noticed the connection between when I drew it on my wrist and the larger tips despite knowing absolutely nothing about what it was. I am open about my spirituality, but don't go around with "Hey! I did this thing that has everything to do with what I believe!" or whatnot.

Again, I mean...how do we control for the Placebo Effect? How do we control for it being coincidence? From what you're saying, we can't...so if we can't measure it and work out the mechanism and whether anything is actually working there, why should I believe it?
I mean, it's possible that the placebo effect or - hell - even the pigeon example worked for your friend. She saw you had a sigil on your arm that she didn't recognise, she presumably knows something about your beliefs, and she happened to get more tips. That happens a couple of times by coincidence, and then BOOM she makes the connection. Hence, a superstition is born.
Of course, it's also hypothetically possible that it is indeed magic, but...well, this is about figuring out how to determine that. :P


Quote from: Arian Sinclair on February 12, 2018, 10:18:39 PMI've noticed that a lot. I remember while waiting to clock into work one day I used Bible quotes to shut up someone trying to use it to say God put animals on Earth for humans to eat. Um, no, dumbass. God placed them initially as companions to man if you actually read it. And humans didn't begin to eat animals until long after Adam and Eve were banned from Eden, not until some time after Cain killed Abel if I remember correctly. Her response was "Wow. She knows the Bible." She didn't want to continue that conversation anymore because she saw I knew what I was talking about. She was pretty amazed I knew the contents of the Bible despite not being Christian. People tend to underestimate my knowledge just because I'm not quite normal, childish, and have ADHD. Talk about insulting a person's intelligence when they're smarter. XD I don't push veganism on other, but hell if I'm going to let it slide when other try pushing shit on me to try getting me to eat that which I refuse to.

Pretty much, yeah. "God is the ultimate source of morality!"
"Leviticus and slavery."
"Well...um...we're in the new covenant!"
"Jesus said that he didn't come to change the law."
"....um..."
xD

Also, I don't think I could handle Veganism. MAYBE Vegetarianism (I love meat, though, so I wouldn't last long), but Vegan? No eggs, no dairy, nothing like that? Um...no. I wouldn't survive xD


Quote from: Arian Sinclair on February 12, 2018, 10:18:39 PMWell, it's easier because memory is better with motion, at least for me and others with ADHD. It goes into physical memory, kind of like learning to ride a bike in a way.

Welp...my brain works in a weird way xD
Vergil's Faceclaim Archive; For All Your Character Model Seeking Needs!


Men in general judge more by the sense of sight than by that of touch, because everyone can see but few can test by feeling. Everyone sees what you seem to be, few know what you really are; and those few do not dare take a stand against the general opinion. Therefore it is unnecessary to have all the qualities I have enumerated, but it is very necessary to appear to have them. And I shall dare to say this also, that to have them and always observe them is injurious, and that to appear to have them is useful; to appear merciful, faithful, humane, religious, upright, and be so, but with a mind so framed that should you require not to be so, you may be able and know how to change to the opposite.

Dubbed the "Oath of Drake,"
A noble philosophy; I adhere...for now.

Regina Minx

Quote from: Arian Sinclair on February 12, 2018, 03:02:09 PM
Magick works absolutely nothing like on the telly or in movies or even in books. It is much more subtle in its workings. Belief can be a powerful thing, just like confidence. When I made my first sigil, drawing it onto my arm every day back when I worked in a doughnut place, it had the unexpected and lovely effect of my shift earning better tips so that we all had more tip money at the end of the shift. It was meant as Good Fortune and Memory, and the good fortune I had meant initially had nothing to do with money. It can work in such unexpected ways, for better or for worse. :3

Hey there. I was debating whether or not I wanted to bring this up, because any time beliefs are questioned, even in the benign 'why do you believe this' sort of way, it can come across as a personal attack, and that's not what I'm about. I have seen you engage on this point, though, and you seem quite OK with people asking you skeptically minded questions, so I hope you don't mind if I go a little further.

I guess what I'd like to do first is drill down into what you actually believe when you say the word magic. When you say it's subtle and affected by your own degree of belief in it, do you mean that what you refer to as magic is about the psychological effect of performing certain acts and drawing certain symbols on yourself, which in turns affects those around you? What I mean to say is...did your drawing that sigil on yourself serve as a visible reminder to behave a certain way, which made the customers respond to you and tip you more?

If that's what you mean when you talk about magic, I'm not sure you'll find any atheist or skeptic on this thread (or anywhere else, for that matter) who will disagree with you or doubt that the effect is real. By the same token, though, I'm not sure any of us would even know what's gained by calling it magic. Does the sigil on your arm just the same as Dumbo's magic feather?

If you think that there's more to it than that, though, I really would like to know what you mean. You referred to energy in another post, but I assume that you don't mean the ability to perform work? What do you mean when you say energy?

If you believe that there was some cause of your increase of tips other than a purely psychological effect...why do you think that? How did you control for cognitive biases? (If anyone wants to scare themselves about what an unreliable tool the human brain is, the Wikipedia article on cognitive biases is a depressing read).

Humans are so bad about drawing inferences about the world around them that we've had to invent a specialized discipline for the process of figuring out what's real or what's not. The entire purpose of science, to some degree, is to eliminate the biases in our brain that prevent us from building true ideas about the world. It's my belief that if a person sets out to prove themselves wrong, they've already failed. They are going to fall into the trap of verification bias, cherry picking, seeing what you want to see, and other common errors.

In my opinion, the only way to progress in knowledge is by doing what science does. Try to falsify your belief. Have you done that? Have you tried to falsify your belief in magic? What would that falsification look like? How have you tested for it? Did you fail to falsify it? And did you remember to control for bias even in that? Because you can't just try to prove yourself wrong with bad methods or weak data. Trying to prove yourself wrong and failing can only increase the probability of your being right only in direct proportion to how effectively you tried and failed to prove yourself wrong.

So I guess this is my way of asking...why do you believe that drawing certain symbols on yourself has anything other than a psychological effect on you vis a vis the amount of tip money you earned?

Oniya

#237
Quote from: HannibalBarca on February 09, 2018, 06:33:04 PM
Pagan was a term coined in the early years of Christianity to identify a non-Christian.  Islam has a similar word--infidel.  Judaism does too--gentile.  These are exclusionary terms, and thus negative, but many pagans have adopted their term to use to identify themselves, so unlike infidel and gentile, pagan can have a positive connotation as well.

Pagan, as well as heathen, have similar roots.  Pagan from paganus which was old Latin for 'farmer', and 'heathen' meaning 'of the heath'.  Essentially 'them civ'lized city folk with their fancy new ree-ligion was callin' us hicks.'  ;)  #CunningLinguistics

Also, 'infidel' isn't even an Arabic word.  It's also Latin based, and simply means 'not faithful'.
"Language was invented for one reason, boys - to woo women.~*~*~Don't think it's all been done before
And in that endeavor, laziness will not do." ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think we're never gonna win this war
Robin Williams-Dead Poets Society ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think your world's gonna fall apart
I do have a cause, though.  It's obscenity.  I'm for it.  - Tom Lehrer~*~All you need is your beautiful heart
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Regina Minx

Quote from: Oniya on February 13, 2018, 01:59:35 AM
Pagan, as well as heathen, have similar roots.  Pagan from paganus which was old Latin for 'farmer', and 'heathen' meaning 'of the heath'.

If I’m not mistaken, heathen is a word of old English/Germanic origins, not Latin.

Vergil Tanner

No, you're right. Oniya got the meaning correct, but its origins are a mix of Old English, Dutch and Germanic.
Vergil's Faceclaim Archive; For All Your Character Model Seeking Needs!


Men in general judge more by the sense of sight than by that of touch, because everyone can see but few can test by feeling. Everyone sees what you seem to be, few know what you really are; and those few do not dare take a stand against the general opinion. Therefore it is unnecessary to have all the qualities I have enumerated, but it is very necessary to appear to have them. And I shall dare to say this also, that to have them and always observe them is injurious, and that to appear to have them is useful; to appear merciful, faithful, humane, religious, upright, and be so, but with a mind so framed that should you require not to be so, you may be able and know how to change to the opposite.

Dubbed the "Oath of Drake,"
A noble philosophy; I adhere...for now.

Oniya

Quote from: Regina Minx on February 13, 2018, 06:42:06 AM
If I’m not mistaken, heathen is a word of old English/Germanic origins, not Latin.

Similar as in 'they describe the same thing' - a person who lives in the less developed regions and (in the days before the Internet) unlikely to be aware of what's in vogue until it's almost out of vogue.  The 'pointy hat' trope came from the fact that people in the outer areas of settled regions learned about fashion trends late.  'Oh, did you see Mabel?  Poor thing, she's still wearing a pointy hat.  Didn't she hear that went out last season?'
"Language was invented for one reason, boys - to woo women.~*~*~Don't think it's all been done before
And in that endeavor, laziness will not do." ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think we're never gonna win this war
Robin Williams-Dead Poets Society ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think your world's gonna fall apart
I do have a cause, though.  It's obscenity.  I'm for it.  - Tom Lehrer~*~All you need is your beautiful heart
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Regina Minx

Quote from: Regina Minx on February 12, 2018, 10:38:02 PM
It's my belief that if a person sets out to prove themselves wrong, they've already failed.

And, of course, I mean, if a person tries to prove themselves right.

My kingdom for an edit button.

Deamonbane

Angry Sex: Because it's Impolite to say," You pissed me off so much I wanna fuck your brains out..."

Regina Minx

Quote from: Deamonbane on March 20, 2018, 08:35:36 PM
http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2018/03/20/todays-atheists-are-bullies-and-are-doing-their-best-to-intimidate-rest-us-into-silence.amp.html?__twitter_impression=true

I don't think I've ever been this angry before. But... it's to be expected from Fox News.

Shall we play count the logical fallacies! I found six...

Ad hominem fallacy. (Atheists today are the most arrogant, ignorant and dangerous people on earth.)

Poisoning the well. (Atheist leaders like Stalin, Mao Zedong, Hideki To ̄jo ̄, Pol Pot and many others bear the blame...)

Argument from popularity. (Atheists believe that the vast majority of human beings from all periods of time and all places on the Earth have been wrong about the thing most important to them.)

Argument from authority. (Aristotle, Francis Bacon, Leonardo Da Vinci, and Isaac Newton all believed in God)

Argument from final consequences (The truth is, the atheist position is incapable of supporting any coherent system of morality other than ruthless social Darwinism.)

Non-sequitor. (Atheists don’t believe in God, so they don’t believe in any transcendent, objective moral law.)

Vergil Tanner

Well, if you can count the entire article as a fallacy, I can add a seventh; Strawman Fallacy!
Vergil's Faceclaim Archive; For All Your Character Model Seeking Needs!


Men in general judge more by the sense of sight than by that of touch, because everyone can see but few can test by feeling. Everyone sees what you seem to be, few know what you really are; and those few do not dare take a stand against the general opinion. Therefore it is unnecessary to have all the qualities I have enumerated, but it is very necessary to appear to have them. And I shall dare to say this also, that to have them and always observe them is injurious, and that to appear to have them is useful; to appear merciful, faithful, humane, religious, upright, and be so, but with a mind so framed that should you require not to be so, you may be able and know how to change to the opposite.

Dubbed the "Oath of Drake,"
A noble philosophy; I adhere...for now.

TheGlyphstone

'and many others' could include Hitler, so Reducto Ad Hitlerium is also in play.

Vergil Tanner

In which case, you have the False Analogy Fallacy, since Hitler was - at least he claimed to be - a Roman Catholic. In fact, he hated atheists almost as much as he hated Jews. At least if you believe that what he wrote in Mein Kampf reflects his views on the matter.
Vergil's Faceclaim Archive; For All Your Character Model Seeking Needs!


Men in general judge more by the sense of sight than by that of touch, because everyone can see but few can test by feeling. Everyone sees what you seem to be, few know what you really are; and those few do not dare take a stand against the general opinion. Therefore it is unnecessary to have all the qualities I have enumerated, but it is very necessary to appear to have them. And I shall dare to say this also, that to have them and always observe them is injurious, and that to appear to have them is useful; to appear merciful, faithful, humane, religious, upright, and be so, but with a mind so framed that should you require not to be so, you may be able and know how to change to the opposite.

Dubbed the "Oath of Drake,"
A noble philosophy; I adhere...for now.

Oniya

Aristotle believed in God?  Not bad, considering he lived 300 years before Christianity could have been a thing.  Zeus, Apollo, Athena, quite probably, but I can't see Fox News ranking Paganism any higher than they do atheism.

"Language was invented for one reason, boys - to woo women.~*~*~Don't think it's all been done before
And in that endeavor, laziness will not do." ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think we're never gonna win this war
Robin Williams-Dead Poets Society ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think your world's gonna fall apart
I do have a cause, though.  It's obscenity.  I'm for it.  - Tom Lehrer~*~All you need is your beautiful heart
O/O's Updated 5/11/21 - A/A's - Current Status! - Writing a novel - all draws for Fool of Fire up!
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Vergil Tanner

Haha, yeah, that's the other thing I noticed. I read Aristotle's name and was thinking "...well, they're not wrong. He believed in gods so I guess the point they were trying to make was that even though he believed in the "wrong" gods, he still believed in a higher power? Maybe? I guess? Or would that be crediting Fox News with too much intelligence, rather than simply saying that they think Aristotle was a Christian? >.>
Vergil's Faceclaim Archive; For All Your Character Model Seeking Needs!


Men in general judge more by the sense of sight than by that of touch, because everyone can see but few can test by feeling. Everyone sees what you seem to be, few know what you really are; and those few do not dare take a stand against the general opinion. Therefore it is unnecessary to have all the qualities I have enumerated, but it is very necessary to appear to have them. And I shall dare to say this also, that to have them and always observe them is injurious, and that to appear to have them is useful; to appear merciful, faithful, humane, religious, upright, and be so, but with a mind so framed that should you require not to be so, you may be able and know how to change to the opposite.

Dubbed the "Oath of Drake,"
A noble philosophy; I adhere...for now.

Oniya

Quote from: Vergil Tanner on March 21, 2018, 01:47:43 AM
Haha, yeah, that's the other thing I noticed. I read Aristotle's name and was thinking "...well, they're not wrong. He believed in gods so I guess the point they were trying to make was that even though he believed in the "wrong" gods, he still believed in a higher power? Maybe? I guess? Or would that be crediting Fox News with too much intelligence, rather than simply saying that they think Aristotle was a Christian? >.>

He also had a male lover*, and was a major influence on Islamic philosophy.  Bet that would make their hair stand on end.
"Language was invented for one reason, boys - to woo women.~*~*~Don't think it's all been done before
And in that endeavor, laziness will not do." ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think we're never gonna win this war
Robin Williams-Dead Poets Society ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think your world's gonna fall apart
I do have a cause, though.  It's obscenity.  I'm for it.  - Tom Lehrer~*~All you need is your beautiful heart
O/O's Updated 5/11/21 - A/A's - Current Status! - Writing a novel - all draws for Fool of Fire up!
Requests updated March 17