Small group, cooperative Pathfinder: starter thread

[Ixy]

Hi guys... I'm thinking that I'd love to take part in a PF game with a small group of characters that is cooperatively GM'd... what I mean is that every player helps to build the story for their partners.  It's not fair that STs don't get to run their own character, and if they do, they get burnt out on constantly driving the plot.  So I have an experimental solution...

The rules would be simple...
1- You make challenges for each other to overcome.  This means that, if you determine a goblin horde would be cool, your character can help fight them but doesn't get to be the big hero there.
2- Combat is short and sweet.  Pick your actions, insert your rolls, and then the next player describes how awesome it was in their next post, including their character's action toward the next challenge (like another goblin, etc.)  No XP-giving situation should take more than a week to resolve.
3- The story and feel are what matters more than anything else... you have to want BOTH good AND bad things to happen to your character, because sometimes losing is as interesting as winning.  And finally...
4- Carry on.  If you get bored, don't know what to do, find another way to participate.  Should you feel like you're left out or need a change, talk to your fellow players in OOC and figure it out.

If you are interested in this kind of game, please add your thoughts to this thread.  There's no "first-come, first-served" here, this is not a service nor a free-for all.  Anybody can share their thoughts on this thread and then, when we land on a group, you guys express your feelings as to what characters, story elements, basic scenario, etc. that you want.  Communist gaming!  ... just kidding. 

Also, please don't have hurt feelings if your idea doesn't work well-- just find other players who like it and start another thread with it.  No effort will be wasted!  This isn't about meeting one person's vision... it's about meeting A FEW people's vision and building it together.



OK... here's my thoughts.

I'd like a gritty game, set in the typical PF settings, with intrigue, moderate power level, and a small group of sexy characters.  For the game I'd like to see, there would be no anime avatars, no jokey characters (but a sense of humor is good seasoning, just not the main course), lots of graphic violence, a potential for some NC content but not tentacle-rapiness or flat-out snuff stuff. 

A cool setting that I loved, but had to abandon last year, would be a non-canon island in the vein of the Eberron setting's Xendrik, with outposts and a fort from some empire and a whole savage land into which the group can foray.

As for other characters, I'd look for a group of unique, interesting PCs that have a good reason to work with each other but perhaps don't know each other well YET.  I'm not a huge fan of futa but I guess we can get into that case-by case, and a monstrous character should be at least able to relate to a human-type mindset in some way.,, even something non-human should have some reason to build emotional or physical connections to others.

I'm thinking for the sake of building balanced characters with interesting histories, we have 4 gestalt PCs at level 4, 25 pt buy, 12K gold, 1 trait max, using Paizo resources.

Thoughts?  Anyone interested?

I'm going to post some characters as I come up with them.  Love to hear some other ideas, and would appreciate feedback oin any you'd actually like to play with.

Hope this works, thanks for your interest!


Update, 1/11: First story is starting to brew.  There are any number of games, groups, etc. that could spin off here... just going to start heaping them together for reference. 

Also, here' s a super-simple example of how story development COULD go.  Remember, every player doesn't have to introduce something new every turn... just help keep the plot moving if possible.

Game 1:Thundering Shores

Primary game elements:

• Limited resources
• Frontier feel
• Exploring the unknown
• Discovering ancient secrets

Setting:
Empire-claimed remote island, with jungles, swamps, harbors, rivers.  Tropical climate, small government, lots of ancient ruins of ancient cultures.  Powers at work: a powerful church with resources to support missionary work, the government's limited-supply, but important, fort and garrison.  Local authority figures: a few wealthy traders who are monopolizing goods production, an eccentric brother and sister who lead the brothel/tavern/drug trade, an adventurer's company that fulfills requests from the mainland, and a craftsman's guild (cigar rollers, blacksmiths, potters, glassblowers) council.

Characters so far interested:
PC: Revven Winter

• Human, Ranger/Inquisitor.
• Player: Ixy
• Notes: Jungle critter specialist, human-hunter.
• Works for the church at first, promising to protect their missionaries, but free to take side work.
• Would be good at tracking criminals, jungle/swamp hunting, offering some helpful info on religious/magic history.
• Female, bisexually interested.

Game 2: Reclaiming, Inc.

Faro is a great nation of people.  It is ruled by an Emperess, whose power is balanced with the Council of Lords, and on a third side by the Council of Faiths.  The nation has its issues-- foreign wars generate refugees, trade routes are threatened by piracy, barbarian uprisings in its remote reaches must occasionally be put down, and there is disparity between the wealthy few and the broader poor-- but overall, the nation is stable. 
This was not always the case.
Once, the nation was the pinnacle of tyrrany.  Much of the regency had achieved untouchable wealth and power by bartering with extra-planar powers, an arrangement that brought the former reign the power to amass great wealth and influence at the price of enslavement of the people, acts of depravity, and draconian rule that lasted  This nation has always known that it is built on the ruins of that civilization, which ruled for hundreds of years-- its architecture, monoliths, and infrastructure remain today, grim reminders of what gathered the fuel upon which the current empire feeds.
Much remains below the surface- literally, and figuratively.  Some opportunistic parties still petition for the right to study the tomes guarded by the Council of Faiths, mages and sorcerers still practice under license by the empire, and occasionally rumors emerge that remnants of the former empire are still being discovered deep underground or in the remote wilderness of the empire's reach.
You are among those brave souls who has made a career from these discoveries.  Whether as a long-term retainer of an existing power or a freelancer, you are experienced with the strange, mad mechanations of the old empire-- massive complexes for defense, storage, and torture... vaults of hoarded goods and wealth... mining tunnels repurposed with mad vision... vainglorious tombs, galleries, and collections of unusual relics. And traps... lots of traps, which were an obsession of the old lords, who often staffed and tested their defenses in sadistic competition.
Many resources have been raided-- Faro's armies maintains a corps of delvers and engineers whose mission was to capture these resources, and who sealed off and protected ruins to prevent them being overrun by the deep-dwelling creatures that were drawn to them out of their geographic features or some remnants of evil power.  The corps now is dedicated to preserving places of archeological interest and patrolling for the sake of security.  It's a cushy job, but it involves long weeks away from home and long hours underground.
New discoveries are rare-- more elusive year-by-year.  Officially, delving into old-world ruins is considered a criminal offense, punishable by jail-time and hefty fines.  However, special licenses are granted based on expertise and political favors.  They require approval by the Imperator and both councils, an insurance deposit, a hefty license fee, and actual expedition funding.  Upon receipt of said license, all parties must sign a contract.  In doing so, they agree to accept full liability of any damage they cause to public property (such as a subterranean collapse that breaks an aqueduct above-ground), forfeit all property to the city in event of their demise, release all liability in the event of injury or death, and relinquish 60% of their monetary profits-- 20% to each branch of government.
Despite these expenses, a new expedition sparks up almost every year.  In fact, five years ago in a quest called the Hive Crawl of Mintevol, a company returned a derth of amazing artifacts and wealth... of six partners invested, four survived, as well as nine of the fifteen contracted workers.  Each worker's stipend was enough to buy a home outright.  Three partners retired to the south coast, set for life, while one reinvested her fortune into her own Reclaiming company.
What are your odds?  Three of ten expeditions turn a major profit.  Usually one in ten makes a bloody fortune.  If you're caught gaming the system-- trying to escape with your wealth-- your sentence of twenty-year imprisonment includes forfeit of all possessions.  Most contracts include a clause that, if anyone survives, the estate of each who died gets a cut of the profits.  This discourages anyone getting shivved and left in the deep.
You have a map of an entry point.  It's an old well in a new-growth forest that, at one point, must have been a field on an estate.  The land once belonged to a countess' estate, the ruins of which were reclaimed repeatedly over the centuries.  It is promising... in applying for the license, you managed to downplay the potential, which is based on a combination of folklore and written history.  The Countess was a reputed libertine with a penchant for powerful lovers, amassing fortunes in taxes and trade, but bored with simple power.  Her downfall reportedly was her intemperance-- she serviced the mad emperor, Draxis III, a Tiefling Sorcerer who personally led his cadre of mages to eradicate her palace, family, and grounds 1,300 years ago.  Layers of ash ten feet thick compressed to a brittle, pyroclastic sheet so toxic with corrupt magic that none would set foot on the grounds for a hundred years.
Little has been reclaimed since then, but the ground is like a living thing and coughs up relics from time to time.   Livestock is occasionally found missing from the surrounding farmland, and there is evidence of crude hunting technology.  Civilized artifacts are increasingly common on the grounds (cut stone, metal buttons beads and arrowheads, preserved bones, remnants of clay and the like).  This well may lead to something so deep it has been undiscovered.  Most assuredly, however, there are resuorces for an entire ecosystem in such depths, and something may yet dwell there that will be unwelcoming.

3-4 PCs partners, each with one or more of the following:
Knowledge (languages, history, religion, arcana, local knowledge)
Rogue Skills (climbing,trap building/disarming, magic item identification/utilization)
Combat (close-quarters)
Engineering (mining, construction/stability assessment)
Professional reputation

I'd like to keep NPC involvement to a minimum... sure, it makes sense to have a crew of mercs go down there to help you out, but that gets messy for mechanics.  Let's suspend disbelief and have just the PCs do any fighting, trapfinding, and the like, but NPCs do boring tasks like maintaining supply routes, mining found resources, or clearing blocked tunnels.

Simplified example of how players can build a scene

I rather imagined it being improvised along the way.  The overall quest would be determined by the group (investigate a temple, investigate bandit camp, explore ruins) and then the players would determine encounters for each other based on the time that things 'should' happen in the story when it makes sense or works to create drama.. otherwise, they would just add something for setting, etc.

For a tavern scene, for instance... purely imagining this, but add the details that we Elliquians love and make it read like a story...

So player 1 might post that they're heading into the local tavern, deciding it would be called the Golden Leg, and describe the room as they come in... sights, sounds, etc.  Then  Player 2 could decide that their character is already there, and is playing cards with a half-orc in the back corner, describing how much money is on the table, and that they're holding a pretty good hand.  Player 3 chimes in and describes that their character is throwing darts in the back of the room with some halfling prostitutes and a drunk nobleman, and is watching the new people enter... not really ready for something to happen yet, so they let it go on as they feel.  Then,  Player 4 gets the idea that the half-orc bets all his possessions on the hand, but is bluffing.  Player 4 decides that she's been hired to be the nobleman's bodyguard, but kind of hates the job and is ready to quit.  So it's now back to Player 1, who posts that (like player 4 said) their hand is better, so win the pot from the half-orc... player 2 then describes the half-orc being stereotypically ill-tempered and starting a barfight.

The only big issue I see is the risk of double-posting... even with a small group, a guy might be three paragraphs into a post and find out that another player's written something different happening, so their post is kinda useless.  So, my suggestion is this: when ready to make a post, just add a quick note of what's gonna happen so other players can start working on their response.  Then, after writing it up to quality-level, edit the post and add the cool details for everyone to read.

I realize this is a weird kind of idea, as it really relies more on the players to change their view of an RPG... it's not players vs. DM, it's players building story for each other.

[Mantis Shrimp Prime]

Ahhhhhhhh... dare I Pathfinder myself out...

[Warlock]

Throwing in my hat in this as well. Now where did I leave my Xendirk book?
*Goes of scrounging*

[kckolbe]

So, are "quests" rotated from one GM to the next?  Or is it by encounter?

I'm intrigued, but not sure I understand.

[Ixy]

I rather imagined it being improvised along the way.  The overall quest would be determined by the group (investigate a temple, investigate bandit camp, explore ruins) and then the players would determine encounters for each other based on the time that things 'should' happen in the story when it makes sense or works to create drama.. otherwise, they would just add something for setting, etc.

For a tavern scene, for instance... purely imagining this, but add the details that we Elliquians love and make it read like a story...

So player 1 might post that they're heading into the local tavern, deciding it would be called the Golden Leg, and describe the room as they come in... sights, sounds, etc.  Then  Player 2 could decide that their character is already there, and is playing cards with a half-orc in the back corner, describing how much money is on the table, and that they're holding a pretty good hand.  Player 3 chimes in and describes that their character is throwing darts in the back of the room with some halfling prostitutes and a drunk nobleman, and is watching the new people enter... not really ready for something to happen yet, so they let it go on as they feel.  Then,  Player 4 gets the idea that the half-orc bets all his possessions on the hand, but is bluffing.  Player 4 decides that she's been hired to be the nobleman's bodyguard, but kind of hates the job and is ready to quit.  So it's now back to Player 1, who posts that (like player 4 said) their hand is better, so win the pot from the half-orc... player 2 then describes the half-orc being stereotypically ill-tempered and starting a barfight.

The only big issue I see is the risk of double-posting... even with a small group, a guy might be three paragraphs into a post and find out that another player's written something different happening, so their post is kinda useless.  So, my suggestion is this: when ready to make a post, just add a quick note of what's gonna happen so other players can start working on their response.  Then, after writing it up to quality-level, edit the post and add the cool details for everyone to read.

I realize this is a weird kind of idea, as it really relies more on the players to change their view of an RPG... it's not players vs. DM, it's players building story for each other.

[kckolbe]

Okay.  As level 4 gestalts, challenges will have to be less mundane, but I definitely have a better idea.  Still interested.

[PhantomPistoleer]

Definitely interested . . . in playing a Barbarian / Something.

NM!  I changed my mind.  WIZARD/CLERIC.  o_o

[Mantis Shrimp Prime]

It'd take a lot of restraint for me to avoid making a ridiculous character, but I'll still be interested.
Though a question, would this be a firearms-friendly setting?

[Ixy]

Glad to hear you're interested, Phantom--

Mantis: I would be ok with that, but it'd be up to all 4 in a group (if we do end up with 4).  We're building as we go.

[kckolbe]

I really want to do a magus-like char, only an archer.  Arcane Archer comes close, but only allows area spells *and* takes 8th level.  I'd love to be able to do touch spells through an arrow.  In general, though, I want to play an archer.

[Mantis Shrimp Prime]

Glad to hear you're interested, Phantom--

Mantis: I would be ok with that, but it'd be up to all 4 in a group (if we do end up with 4).  We're building as we go.

Well, tentative interest as a Gunslinger/something then.

[Ixy]

I'm essentially working on a ranger/inquisitor, if that helps; I kind of imagine having a mission from a god/goddess that requires delving, tracking, and stalking.

[PhantomPistoleer]

I'm essentially working on a ranger/inquisitor, if that helps; I kind of imagine having a mission from a god/goddess that requires delving, tracking, and stalking.

Oooh.  Well, if that's the case, then I kind of want to switch things around.

I like the idea that you mentioned earlier, where there is like... a Xen'Drik like island.  I like the idea of setting up a fort of some kind, too.

[Mantis Shrimp Prime]

I'm essentially working on a ranger/inquisitor, if that helps; I kind of imagine having a mission from a god/goddess that requires delving, tracking, and stalking.

I was thinking Gunslinger/Investigator (assuming it's okay to use Advanced Class Guide).
For a super smart, kind of proto-sciencey type.

[Warlock]

Understanding your concept better, I'll bow out. It's not something I'm currently looking to do. Wish the best to those who stay, good luck.

[MrBubbles]

How would we be rolling up health?

Character-wise, I'm thinking of a good old Elf - not just any Elf though, a manly Elf, the kind that harkens back to the likes of Elrond, Legolas or even Feanor.

Methinks Slayer/Fighter to capture that bow/melee expertise... Oh, question! Do you see Mythic coming into play for this campaign?

[Mantis Shrimp Prime]

Im super interested in this but I hate guns, I think it ruins a good fantasy setting.

It's not a gun, it's a boomstick!

(I do somewhat agree, with esp. with the Pathfinder Gunslinger basically being a western character its capstone ability is call True Grit for crissakes).

But still... I like me my flintlocks.

[kckolbe]

I'm seeing a lot of interest in ranged characters.  I see a pretty easy tie in here.  Maybe our characters were all participants in some ranged support training for armies or something along those lines?  By the way, Myrmidarchs (Magus archetype) allows spellstrike through ranged weapons, so I know what I am playing!

[Mantis Shrimp Prime]

I'm seeing a lot of interest in ranged characters.  I see a pretty easy tie in here.  Maybe our characters were all participants in some ranged support training for armies or something along those lines?  By the way, Myrmidarchs (Magus archetype) allows spellstrike through ranged weapons, so I know what I am playing!

"Reach out and touch someone."

>D

[kckolbe]

Exactly Mantis.  Here's what I have for my char, a crossbow-wielding heavy damage dealer.

Level One: Magus (Myrmidarch)/Fighter (Crossbowman)
Level Two: Magus (Myrmidarch)/Fighter (Crossbowman)
Level Three: Magus (Myrmidarch)/Rogue (Sniper)
Level Four: Magus (Myrmidarch)/Rogue (Sniper)

His highest stat is INT, so he isn't a horrible caster, and he has a fair bit of knowledge.  He makes sense as someone sent to adventure in a ruined, desolate area.  He only really offers solid damage as a contribution to the group.  It's a little weird, because I always play hybrid types in normal games, and now that we are going Gestalt, I am specializing.  Even without his magic damage, he can put a hurt on folks (ranged sneak attack, INT bonus to damage), but for a Gestalt game he's fairly lacking in defenses.  I don't plan on him taking any prestige classes or different classes, so there won't be any surprises from him down the road, just consistent damage.

His theme is that he is formally trained in magic and/or ranged combat, but has an unconventional approach.  After all, no serious marksman uses a crossbow, but he likes it because it leaves him free to cast and because it makes him memorable. 

Since we are all responsible for creating encounters, I put together a quick reference below.

Where he excels: High health/high defense "tanks" (he has a high bonus to attack and does a lot of burst damage, could kill a level 2 "tank" in one hit), small groups of moderate foes
Where he is weak: Mobs of weak enemies (due to his lack of rapid shot, so can only kill one enemy/round), mind-controllers (due to low Will save), really quick chars with sneak attack/burst  damage (due to his average initiative bonus, low AC)

[Ixy]

Thanks for all the interest and encouragement :)

It sounds like we have a few ideas brewing... I could see this potentially going into a couple of different small groups, depending on concepts and setting elements. 

Just to clarify... we're still open to just about any kind of story ideas and character concepts.

I'm still working on the first PC.  I really don't want more than 4 characters in each group, but I could reasonably handle 2 or even 3 new games at a steady posting rate.

Below, I'll start to track some ideas as they develop.  We can add to this, change it, etc. as we go along.  I'll also edit the top post to keep track of current status and examples for others' reference.

Game 1:Thundering Shores

Primary game elements:

• Limited resources
• Frontier feel
• Exploring the unknown
• Discovering ancient secrets

Setting:
Empire-claimed remote island, with jungles, swamps, harbors, rivers.  Tropical climate, small government, lots of ancient ruins of ancient cultures.  Powers at work: a powerful church with resources to support missionary work, the government's limited-supply, but important, fort and garrison.  Local authority figures: a few wealthy traders who are monopolizing goods production, an eccentric brother and sister who lead the brothel/tavern/drug trade, an adventurer's company that fulfills requests from the mainland, and a craftsman's guild (cigar rollers, blacksmiths, potters, glassblowers) council.

Characters so far interested:
PC: Revven Winter

• Ranger/Inquisitor.
• Player: Ixy
• Notes: Jungle critter specialist, human-hunter.
• Works for the church at first, promising to protect their missionaries, but free to take side work.
• Would be good at tracking criminals, jungle/swamp hunting, offering some helpful info on religious/magic history.
• Female, bisexually interested.

[PhantomPistoleer]

Ooh!  Can I build the fort!?  I want to build the fort.

With a MAP!

[Ixy]

You can build the town, even.

[PhantomPistoleer]

There is a town!?  Huzzah.

Okay, so I ended up building an elven rogue/wizard who specializes in summoning.  He is also an engineer of sorts, and I imagine that he has been sent to ensure the continued existence of the settlement.

In my mind, I sort of see a nation, ruled by a theocracy, sending forth settlers to an island that was once in dispute by great nations.  However, with the advent of a treaty, the nation has been pressured to found a new settlement, and wresting the land from the aboriginal/indigenous heathens is one of the  primary goals.

I am so excited!!!

[kckolbe]

So a once-significant colony that was all but obliterated and now needs to be rebuilt and have some monsters cleared out?  Be interesting to see a proper summoner.

[Mantis Shrimp Prime]

Ha. I'd almost be interested in playing a tavernkeeper or something.

[PhantomPistoleer]

Ha. I'd almost be interested in playing a tavernkeeper or something.

Why not??

[Ixy]

That's an idea.  Invest your gold into a business and plan out how much return you get each month.  Would your character take part in high jinks and dirty-knuckle work?

[Mantis Shrimp Prime]

That's an idea.  Invest your gold into a business and plan out how much return you get each month.  Would your character take part in high jinks and dirty-knuckle work?

Perhaps. I'd had the idea they might be part-time involved in the story and have more an NPC role when they come back from town from their excursions. Maybe someone who could appraise their goods or sell them stuff.
Since there's tons of interest NPC ideas but you never really get to play those.
But in a game with no permanent GM it'd be a possibility.

[PhantomPistoleer]

Okay, so, I've been working on the little town's map.  I don't see it as a town, but more like... a settlement.

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide

I am going to be working on this, but I would like feedback.  The tower at the bottom left will be the keep/barracks, but I liked the idea of soldiers actually putting up tents on the battlements to escape the suffocating heat.  Imagined the keep being on a cliff face, and the dock being right at the bottom.  The building on the bottom right is the tavern, inn, gambling saloon, and brothel.  In my mind, the owners of the inn dismantled a boat and used it to build the inn.  The building on the top right is a blacksmith for the company at the keep.  The building on the top left is a stable of sorts, but I'm not sure if there's any horses?  Or if we're riding something else (maybe dire birds?).

Also, I would like to claim a portrait:

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide

Also, my character sheet:

http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=1094621

[Chulanowa]

Still got a little space? I could pitch in an Atlas-style map  ;D

[kckolbe]

What are the purple squares?  Are those houses? 

I'm guessing that arcane training takes place in the tower as well?  By the way, your char isn't really that different than mine in concept, though the "battlefield" differences are significant. 

[PhantomPistoleer]

The purple things are tents

As for arcane training, the fort doesn't have any space allocated to it.  It doesn't actually have any educational institution, although, in my mind, the large tower'a first floor has been transformed into a training ground for the garrison.

This doesn't mean that there isn't the space for it, though.  I imagine that there is plenty of room within one of the towers for arcane training -- but, the settlement being so new, everything is still very disorganized/ransacked.

[Ixy]

I think this is awesome.  I suppose that outside the fort there'd be a few sellers, a farmers market, and the like-- the kind of places that could pack up and run into the fort if violence happens or a storm comes in.

A few more details, if nobody objects?

-The farmers' homes would essentially be plantations.  I don't know if you guys are ok with slavery or indentured servitude.  I'm leaning toward the latter, unless you really want to tread that thin line between offensiveness and historical realism :D
-Primary goods: rice, sugar, tobacco (I want to re-hash the sexy cigar-roller NPC I had last time I tried to run this setting), lizard/snake leather, fish, kelp, exotic feathers, menagerie beasts.
-I figure for deities, we can use those from purle duck (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/cleric/gods-3rd-party-publishers/gods-of-porphyra-pdg). The church of Toma Thule is very interested in discoveries made on the island, as is that of Lyvalia.
-Like the old campaign, I've started thinking of the island as "Krakken".  That ok?

[kckolbe]

Sounds great!  Does the island have some resource or strategic purpose?  Does the island belong to the church or are they trying to claim it, maybe from an indigenous race?

[Chulanowa]

So by "island" what size are we talking? Just a little coastal thing, a few miles by a few miles? An island with some land area to it, like Puerto Rico or Hawaii? Or an entire "lost continent" thing, like Australia or Xen'Drik?

[Ixy]

Good question.   It's largely unexplored, a thing of legend-- a bit of Atlantis?  No one's sure what culture ruled there, and the languages, glyphs, artistic/archeological styles are yet to be identified.  We do know from the sheer size of the ruins that they were very powerful people, whoever they were.

I'm up for ideas as to what the lost culture was like; it'd be cool to decide later, too, so we can preserve some elements of mystery.

[Ixy]

Sounds great!  Does the island have some resource or strategic purpose?  Does the island belong to the church or are they trying to claim it, maybe from an indigenous race?

sorry for double-posting.  I think the churches are after it because of the ruins, but they're not sharing why they're so interested.  The rumors run the gamut... there's a great source of power, there's untold fortunes of gold and magic items, there's ancient technology, or even 'this place was the source of all civilized life' or ' this is where gods are buried'.

As for other reasons, besides archaeology, religion, etc.-- parcels are being awarded to farmers to encourage resource growth.  The empire wants the land and resources and to build new cities, and to keep others from getting the resources. 

As for why now?  In the prior game I said there were horrible storms and volcanic activity in the surrounding seas, making it impossible to traverse until the past decade or two.

[PhantomPistoleer]

I think this is awesome.  I suppose that outside the fort there'd be a few sellers, a farmers market, and the like-- the kind of places that could pack up and run into the fort if violence happens or a storm comes in.

A few more details, if nobody objects?

-The farmers' homes would essentially be plantations.  I don't know if you guys are ok with slavery or indentured servitude.  I'm leaning toward the latter, unless you really want to tread that thin line between offensiveness and historical realism :D
-Primary goods: rice, sugar, tobacco (I want to re-hash the sexy cigar-roller NPC I had last time I tried to run this setting), lizard/snake leather, fish, kelp, exotic feathers, menagerie beasts.
-I figure for deities, we can use those from purle duck (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/cleric/gods-3rd-party-publishers/gods-of-porphyra-pdg). The church of Toma Thule is very interested in discoveries made on the island, as is that of Lyvalia.
-Like the old campaign, I've started thinking of the island as "Krakken".  That ok?

1.  I like the idea of MAKING a city, kind of like Pathfinder's Kingmaker.  I don't necessarily object to the idea that there are several merchants in the area, though.  But instead of plantations, I think it would be better if the outpost dealt with aboriginal hunters/trappers.  There could actually be a host of indigenous tribes within the island.  Or, the island could actually still be inhabited by holdouts from the previous war.  However, I think that ESTABLISHING a plantation would be an excellent adventure, which would require clearing the land.

In fact, I feel like the plantation could just be overgrown and still extant, and our forces would have to secure it.

2.  As for slavery, I don't necessarily mind it.  In fact, I sort of feel like the story calls for it.  Maybe the outpost has oppressed a tribe of savages already.  Or maybe the outpost has a number of indentured servants.  Or maybe, those indentured servants have been charged for unlawful felonies?  I feel like subjugating a local population could be either super sad or super sexy. 

3.  I like the idea of having active fishermen and hunters, but I don't think that the people should have been there long enough to raise a local crop.

4.  Krakken is a fine name, and I second it.  Maybe it could have gotten its name because so many fleets were lost in naval battles along its reefs?

Sounds great!  Does the island have some resource or strategic purpose?  Does the island belong to the church or are they trying to claim it, maybe from an indigenous race?

I like the idea that it's an unexplored thing of legend.  I also like the idea of it being largely ignored because it was dangerous, and then the purpose of a great many nations specifically because it was dangerous.

[kckolbe]

Oh wow.  Yeah, I am definitely getting more excited about this. 

[Chulanowa]

Welp. I had an atlas-style map all made and ready to go, but... photoshop crashed when I went to save. i know you're supposed to save as you go, but... eh. Anyway, too disgusted with the universe to try it again tonight.

Anyway, thoughts.

1) I like the idea of the town / outpost / whatever being, in essence, Stormreach, from Eberron; a "free city" built on the ruins of older towns, colonies, and outposts, themselves built on the ruins of one of the lost peoples of the island (who probably built on top of someone else, all the way down...). The town largely subsists on trade, both with natives of the land and with "parent nations." There are a few farms and whatnot, by people too rugged or desperate to care about the possible threats, but they're mostly subsistence. A large part of the economy comes from people travelign from abroad, spending lots of money on whatever i nthe town, then going to "adventure" - usually not coming back. Those that do find market for the artifacts and such they bring back. A real sort of boom town / shantytown / colonial toehold kind of thing.

2) Slavery is not outlawed, per se, but is not encouraged; if you come in with a slave, he / she is your slave, and that's between you and them. But the place has seen enough slave revolts and mutinies to have largely discarded the practice. Basically keeping someone in bondage is more trouble than it's proven to be worth. it remains a legal punishment, however, for crimes below rape, murder, and arson.

3) There is not just one "lost empire." There's a most recent one, but it leapfrogged an earlier one, who leapfrogged one before that, etc. Plus a number of maller kingdoms or whatever. Also, let's do avoid the tired old Elf / Dragon / Giant trinity, I've seen it in so many games. Why not atengu empire that has since degenerated into dire corbies? What about an ancient lizardfolk empire that actually developd spacefaring technology / magic... only to ruin themselves in a nuclear / whatever apocalypse? A military empire of gnomes famed for their jubjub bird war-beasts, who guarded an ever-expanding gateway int othe first world before their defeat at the hands of noble kobold tribes?

;D

4) As regards deities, I would suggest just sticking with the existing pathfinder pantheon, for no reason other than they have actual support i nthe game (traits, mythos, feats, spells, items, templees and practices, etc)

[Ixy]

I'm liking this so far.  I'm with the ideas as listed:

-slavery exists in some reaches of the empire and is still tolerated in the empire at large, but is banned in the central empire.  Far better to replace it with contract slavery-- criminals, debtors, the desperate and impoverished people can put themselves under indentured servitude contract for determined periods to pay off crimes to society, massive debts, etc.  Of course, the economic system is slanted against them.  Like credit cards.

-Definitely the boomtown idea.  For inspiration, I can see the roots in Deadwood (tv show based on historic town of same name).  I still think we should use Phantom's fort schematic for now and tack on temporary residences, portable vendors, etc. on the outside.

-Can we use either the Purple Duck or a combination of both?  I don't have the resources on the 'standard' Pathfinder pantheon, and PD is all open-source (whereas core PF has set domains, etc. but deity names and stories are proprietary).  They have the domains/inquisitions, etc. all plotted out too... I'm in favor of picking a combination of what works.  I'm not sure about traits though, so if a pc depends on a specific deity for background, I say we bring that deity into the mix and roll with it.

-To add onto Phantom's idea about the local crop not yet having yielded... how about this?  5 years ago there was a successful expedition.  They had some successes, made some alliances with the aborigines, and started several plantations.  Something unknown happened to them; two or three major ones were destroyed, their population wiped out.   The empire blamed slave revolts or the natives (depending on who you ask) but it's unclear just what happened.  I'd like my character to be a survivor of that-- she has very little idea what actually happened, but was sent back to the mainland to live with family for a couple years, and is plagued by missing memories, nightmares, and physical scars.

-OK, let's figure out what species seems to 'thrive' here... definitely jungle/swampland.  Chulanowa's suggestions.  I like the Tengu, but they're so non-human it's a challenge for me to imagine being surrounded by them.  I'd support a mix of any of the followingL Lizardfolk, kobolds, Grippli, Vanara, Wayangs?

-I'm with you Chulanowa... they think "Oh, we discovered elven ruins here!  no, wait... these are... ok, we found Dwarven ruins MUCH OLDER than anything we've seen bef... hold on, there's something else here... wow, look at all those eyes--"


So...

How soon does everyone think they can have a character ready?  Even just a concept?

Have I missed anything?  Is there anything, other than what's above, we still need to discuss before deciding the game's starting point?

[kckolbe]

I definitely wouldn't mind playing a Lizardfolk NPC when it comes time for me to set up a major encounter, so I vote for there to be at least a small lizardfolk camp.

[Mantis Shrimp Prime]

You could also have the idea that, many of the empires invaded the island. Perhaps in some cases after the old civilization died.

In fact, they might have started much like this town, and the town is the makings of a new civilization on the island.
That would, of course, also be doomed to fall...

How soon does everyone think they can have a character ready?  Even just a concept?

I have some ideas I'm toying with for half-drow character.
Thinking Druid/Ranger, though the hunter angle would kind of encroach on your inquistor character, so maybe not.
Really liking the drow druid type at the moment though, so maybe will use something else on the other side.

Or a Swashbuckler/Bard which is another drow character I had in mind, based on another character I made for a 4e game and never felt satisfied with because, well... 4e wasn't my bag.

Ooooor an Alchemist/something. Which would probably be my idea for an NPC oriented character though. We'll have to see.

[Chulanowa]

Religion: I'm a fan of the Forgotten realms / Eberron standard; gods are like oprah passing out cars. "You get a god, and you get a god, and you..." - complete with all the littel sub-sects, crossovers, borrowings, and whatnot. The one thing I would avoid from eberron-style in this, is the lack of alignment restrictions for clerics; In eberron a chaoric evil cleric can call on a lawful good god. while it's not bad for Mmmmnightshamalamming people, it's still a little silly.

So, I'm an advocate of pulling gods from wherever, basically. Also, archives of nethys is a pretty comprehensive resource for stuff d20pfsrd doesn't have up...

Other inhabitants; A lot of this depends on the size of the island. But, if we're talking ancient lost empires and such, I'm going to guess the place must be pretty big - somewhere between the size of Greenland and Australia, more of a subcontinent, really. After all, you can't really call a place the size of Tahiti an "empire"

As for the Tengu... well, they devolved into dire corbies. dire corbies live underground.  >:)

I'll probably work up another map, and save properly this time.

As far as characters... uhhhh! i'll get back to you! I have all night and all day tomorrow to work it over.

[Mantis Shrimp Prime]

Not that anyone asked, but my favorite fictional deities are Khorne, Vecna, Malacath, and Nyarlahotep.
Kinda got a soft spot for Auril and Loviatar from Forgotten Realms, too.

[Ixy]

Nothing against any pantheon, at this point.  Nor any particular character class... if we're gestalt 4, they're going to be badasses, no matter how you slice it. 

I'll post my draft of the ranger here in case it helps:  http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=78907

Short background, more in progress:  she was a daughter of a mid-level noble who sought to oversee a plantation and enjoy the bounties of nature, wealth, and freedom from the empire's hierarchy (big fish little pond).  Something, of course, went horribly wrong, and the entire family and all workers disappeared, the manor-fort was destroyed.  Revven reappeared at the main settlement some weeks later, bloodied and gibbering senselessly.  She was returned to her relatives mainland, where she seemed utterly mad until, after a series of vivid nightmares led her to seek a shrine to Nemyth Vaar, she was called by him to go back to the island.  Refocused and with more clarity than she'd had for years, she honed her skills and is returning to seek an unknown foe, or discovery, deep in the island- something that Nemyth either knows of, or suspects.

[PhantomPistoleer]

WIPing.

Fort Krakken

• Stables
• Barracks
• Government Offices
• Storage
• Docks
• The Dull Blade Inn and Tavern
• Blacksmith
• Chapel
• East Tower
• West Tower

Fort Krakken is situated on a cliff and overlooks...

• Stables:  The stables house the company's 30 horses, with 10 or so horses available at any time.  The remaining horses are taken to pasture at one of the old plantations to the north.
• Barracks:  The barracks house the settlement's garrison, which consists of two companies of 150 men.  The officers have taken rooms in the tavern.  A lot of the men find the barracks to be stifling, and some have taken to set up tents along the palisades, while others have built huts outside of the fort.
• Government Offices:  This large building houses the steward's offices.  Here, settlers settle disputes among themselves in a court of law and equity.  This place is usually quiet, except when new settlers arrive.  The steward has the duty to oversee immigration documentation, and furthermore ensure that criminal servitude is enforced.  The steward, her deputies, and her bailiff all have rooms here.
• Storage:  The enchantments in this tower make it an ideal storage place.  The floors are incredibly dry, and permit the long-term storage of grains and spices.  A system of pulleys allow porters to quickly and safely transfer cargo from the tower to the dock 400 feet below.
• Docks:  The dock floods during high tide, and ships larger than a sloop cannot dock here due to the rocky nature of the reef.  Since there aren't very many ships, dockworkers can usually be found lounging around on the steps below the fort, gambling and drinking.
• The Dull Blade Inn and Tavern: 
• Blacksmith:  The smithy is perhaps the busiest place within Fort Krakken, but it only services the garrison.  It has, in short supply but available for loan, the following items:  longswords, shortswords, daggers, longspears, steel shields, chainmail armor, and chain shirts.  Additionally, the smithy is in charge of supplying workers around the fort with iron tools.  The forges are always hot, much to the chagrin of the inn's twin owners. 
• Chapel:  The Chapel is a small place of worship to the God _____ .  It serves as a make-shift hospital.
• East Tower:  The East Tower is currently being rebuilt.  It was nearly demolished by ballista-fire nearly ten years ago.
• West Tower

[PhantomPistoleer]

What should the settlement's name be?

How many people should be living there?

What is the composition of most people?

[Mantis Shrimp Prime]

What should the settlement's name be?

Libertine Lagoon.

How many people should be living there?

Maybe like, a thousand permanent residents, and almost as many transient residents of various sorts?
That'd be for a good small outpost. It could 2-5 times bigger.

What is the composition of most people?

Well, some people say a man is made out of mud.
A poor man is made out of muscle and blood.

[Chulanowa]

Aaaand I finally beat photoshop into submission! I present to you... the Island / Lost continent of Krakken

Warning; its actual size is 2000 x 2000 pixels... it won't display fully on a forum message, so "view image" is your friend!

I've intentionally left it blank as for political boundaries, settlements, etc., assuming such exist. I also set it so that it's in the world's southern hemisphere, maybe just south of the equator so we can have that nice little arid zone in the southeast.

[kckolbe]

So, was thinking about lizardfolk earlier, and thought maybe each of us should pick one "group" currently on the island and develop that community.  Obviously I would want lizardfolk, since I expressed interest in wanting to see them.  Currently thinking of one "boss" as a lizardfolk dragon disciple.

[Mantis Shrimp Prime]

Ooh! I want Umber Hulks! (though I'd have to convert them to Pathfinder)


edit: So for character ideas, I was perusing the various gear and stuff.  Ultimate equipment lists costs for purchasing various animals as pets. You can buy an elephant for 1000 gold. Which I think is a worthy purchase.



My character: Kat'rin d'Lyrion. Drow Alchemist//something.
Future Plans: Buying her own tavern/shop, and going into Master Chymist.
Quick Cheap Sketch:


I dunno what i was thinking with that top.

[Ixy]

I think we know what we think you were thinking .  I think.

I'm getting really excited about this-- love the map, love the fort. 

As for species; I'm working on a way to bring in something unusual, or at least common but in an unusual way.  I'm thinking goblins of some kind.  I might try to keep some things behind as a surprise. :)

I am getting excited about this.  I don't mean to rush anyone, though, so take your time.  I imagine everybody's played together before, so we're clear on most preferences and content varieties, and we're able to focus just on building the story at this point.

[Chulanowa]

Plot twist; That's not a top, it was her pet fruit bat all along!

I would suggest cannibal halflings, but Dark sun already did them. Maybe a rising kingdom of kender, just to scare the living hell out of everyone.  ;D I'll see what I can do

[Mantis Shrimp Prime]

I think we know what we think you were thinking .  I think.

What I mean is, the bit in the middle look like she spilled oil down her top or anything. Shoulda just done a regular low-cut top. >.>

As for species; I'm working on a way to bring in something unusual, or at least common but in an unusual way.  I'm thinking goblins of some kind.  I might try to keep some things behind as a surprise. :)

One reason Umber Hulks appeal to me is, they look like these big lumbering monsters, much in the vein of Ogres, Trolls, or Minotaurs. However, their Int scores are 10, meaning unlike these guys they have human intelligence. Which makes it odd to me they never seem to be presented as having culture or society or stuff like magic or technology, in the vein of any other race of that level of intelligence.




Maybe I shall be able to introduce my woodland variant of the monster, the dreaded LUMBER Hulk!

[kckolbe]

I had some suspicions as well, but am completely okay with them.  I like your ideas on Umber Hulks as well.  My only guess is that with such high strength and stamina, they simply haven't needed to make significant use of intelligence. 

[Mantis Shrimp Prime]

2nd edition suggest there might have been hidden cities of them somewhere.
Naturally, they wouldn't have such inclinations, but there's at least the possibility you could train them in such things as advanced technology or arcane magic.
So perhaps they have a boss of another race.

[Ixy]

Here's an idea for a second game with less structure and planning involved, just to test out the new method of alternating control.

Reclaiming, Inc.:
Faro is a great nation of people.  It is ruled by an Emperess, whose power is balanced with the Council of Lords, and on a third side by the Council of Faiths.  The nation has its issues-- foreign wars generate refugees, trade routes are threatened by piracy, barbarian uprisings in its remote reaches must occasionally be put down, and there is disparity between the wealthy few and the broader poor-- but overall, the nation is stable. 
This was not always the case.
Once, the nation was the pinnacle of tyrrany.  Much of the regency had achieved untouchable wealth and power by bartering with extra-planar powers, an arrangement that brought the former reign the power to amass great wealth and influence at the price of enslavement of the people, acts of depravity, and draconian rule that lasted  This nation has always known that it is built on the ruins of that civilization, which ruled for hundreds of years-- its architecture, monoliths, and infrastructure remain today, grim reminders of what gathered the fuel upon which the current empire feeds.
Much remains below the surface- literally, and figuratively.  Some opportunistic parties still petition for the right to study the tomes guarded by the Council of Faiths, mages and sorcerers still practice under license by the empire, and occasionally rumors emerge that remnants of the former empire are still being discovered deep underground or in the remote wilderness of the empire's reach.
You are among those brave souls who has made a career from these discoveries.  Whether as a long-term retainer of an existing power or a freelancer, you are experienced with the strange, mad mechanations of the old empire-- massive complexes for defense, storage, and torture... vaults of hoarded goods and wealth... mining tunnels repurposed with mad vision... vainglorious tombs, galleries, and collections of unusual relics. And traps... lots of traps, which were an obsession of the old lords, who often staffed and tested their defenses in sadistic competition.
Many resources have been raided-- Faro's armies maintains a corps of delvers and engineers whose mission was to capture these resources, and who sealed off and protected ruins to prevent them being overrun by the deep-dwelling creatures that were drawn to them out of their geographic features or some remnants of evil power.  The corps now is dedicated to preserving places of archeological interest and patrolling for the sake of security.  It's a cushy job, but it involves long weeks away from home and long hours underground.
New discoveries are rare-- more elusive year-by-year.  Officially, delving into old-world ruins is considered a criminal offense, punishable by jail-time and hefty fines.  However, special licenses are granted based on expertise and political favors.  They require approval by the Imperator and both councils, an insurance deposit, a hefty license fee, and actual expedition funding.  Upon receipt of said license, all parties must sign a contract.  In doing so, they agree to accept full liability of any damage they cause to public property (such as a subterranean collapse that breaks an aqueduct above-ground), forfeit all property to the city in event of their demise, release all liability in the event of injury or death, and relinquish 60% of their monetary profits-- 20% to each branch of government.
Despite these expenses, a new expedition sparks up almost every year.  In fact, five years ago in a quest called the Hive Crawl of Mintevol, a company returned a derth of amazing artifacts and wealth... of six partners invested, four survived, as well as nine of the fifteen contracted workers.  Each worker's stipend was enough to buy a home outright.  Three partners retired to the south coast, set for life, while one reinvested her fortune into her own Reclaiming company.
What are your odds?  Three of ten expeditions turn a major profit.  Usually one in ten makes a bloody fortune.  If you're caught gaming the system-- trying to escape with your wealth-- your sentence of twenty-year imprisonment includes forfeit of all possessions.  Most contracts include a clause that, if anyone survives, the estate of each who died gets a cut of the profits.  This discourages anyone getting shivved and left in the deep.
You have a map of an entry point.  It's an old well in a new-growth forest that, at one point, must have been a field on an estate.  The land once belonged to a countess' estate, the ruins of which were reclaimed repeatedly over the centuries.  It is promising... in applying for the license, you managed to downplay the potential, which is based on a combination of folklore and written history.  The Countess was a reputed libertine with a penchant for powerful lovers, amassing fortunes in taxes and trade, but bored with simple power.  Her downfall reportedly was her intemperance-- she serviced the mad emperor, Draxis III, a Tiefling Sorcerer who personally led his cadre of mages to eradicate her palace, family, and grounds 1,300 years ago.  Layers of ash ten feet thick compressed to a brittle, pyroclastic sheet so toxic with corrupt magic that none would set foot on the grounds for a hundred years.
Little has been reclaimed since then, but the ground is like a living thing and coughs up relics from time to time.   Livestock is occasionally found missing from the surrounding farmland, and there is evidence of crude hunting technology.  Civilized artifacts are increasingly common on the grounds (cut stone, metal buttons beads and arrowheads, preserved bones, remnants of clay and the like).  This well may lead to something so deep it has been undiscovered.  Most assuredly, however, there are resuorces for an entire ecosystem in such depths, and something may yet dwell there that will be unwelcoming.

3-4 PCs partners, each with one or more of the following:
Knowledge (languages, history, religion, arcana, local knowledge)
Rogue Skills (climbing,trap building/disarming, magic item identification/utilization)
Combat (close-quarters)
Engineering (mining, construction/stability assessment)
Professional reputation

I'd like to keep NPC involvement to a minimum... sure, it makes sense to have a crew of mercs go down there to help you out, but that gets messy for mechanics.  Let's suspend disbelief and have just the PCs do any fighting, trapfinding, and the like, but NPCs do boring tasks like maintaining supply routes, mining found resources, or clearing blocked tunnels.

Thoughts?

[PhantomPistoleer]

So, wait, we would be playing multiple games at the same time? o_O

[Ixy]

'we' is whoever wants to, in this case.  I'm not trying to drag anybody into anything they don't want to try out :)

[Mantis Shrimp Prime]

What we really need to do is a Spelljammer game...

:P

[Chulanowa]

...I thought the aim was an outpost on a tropical island thing? What?  ???

[Mantis Shrimp Prime]

...I thought the aim was an outpost on a tropical island thing? What?  ???

Hahahahahahahahaha.

[Chulanowa]

What? Did I miss something?

[Mantis Shrimp Prime]

Honestly, I don't even have a clue.
If you see me measure Spelljammer, I'm probably all caff'd up and won't remember what I was talking about.


Anyway. Had another neat character concept.
I was thinking about the Alchemist class, and subsequently the Master Chymist prestige class that gives you a Mr. Hyde-ish alter ego with a different alignment.
Thought it'd be interesting in a gestalt game to have an LG Alchemist/Paladin, who, when they mutate into their alternate form, turns CE and has their abilities flipped to an Antipaladin.

[PhantomPistoleer]

Do the games inhabit the same world, though?  I am all for it.  Hm.

[yesiroleplay]

I just read the opening post and skimmed the rest, but I have to say... 
Brilliant Ixy, simply brilliant.

Love the cooperative concept.  I see much potential for hi-jinx as players set each other up.

[Ixy]

Thanks for the encouragement, all!

Mantis and Chulanowa:  Sorry for the confusion.  I am just cranking out ideas for a cooperative PF game.  We have some awesome stuff cooking for venue 1: the Thundering Shores.  However, I started throwing out an idea for venue 2: Reclaiming, Inc.

I should have clarified, sorry.

Anyway... I'm going to update post #1 in this thread to clarify the difference. I'm not giving up any idea... I'm trying to start several.

I don't think that they have to be in the same world at all, Phantom.  I was thinking that a delver-game might have a different appeal

[Ixy]

Paladins would be very interesting.  I wounder if a paladin and anti-paladin would be TOO different, though... but maybe the absolute moral rigidity of the two personalities could be 'tuned down' a bit so that, you know, the anti-paladin wouldn't be forced to turn on the party immediately if he/she took over... however, I do like the idea of a character where there is that RISK and uncertainty...can we really trust them?  And is it ok to be evil sometimes if you're working for the right side?  That, I like.

[Mantis Shrimp Prime]

Well, the idea is the two personalities share goals, but have different methods.
The "anti-paladin" side would still fight the same enemies and support the same group, but would be more willing to kill people.
Fighting evil using VERY evil methods.
Would cast "detect good"  and if they don't ping as good, maybe rough them up a bit.

That said, prooooobably not what I'll go for in the end. It's just one of many many many character ideas I have.

[kckolbe]

Maybe, and this is just a thought, take 1 level of barbarian?  I think it would fit with the occasional takeover of personality.  There are probably other ways you could show that.  Additionally, you needn't even be an alchemist.  Perhaps your char was the subject of the experiment but not the chemist.

[Chulanowa]

Ah well... Maybe one at a time, 'cause knowing what we're gonna be doing makes it much easier to come up with characters?  ???

[Ixy]

Of course-- again, just testing the waters

[Mantis Shrimp Prime]

Ah well... Maybe one at a time, 'cause knowing what we're gonna be doing makes it much easier to come up with characters?  ???

Maybe I'll just dip into 8 different classes and wait until after we start playing to pick two to go with...

[Chulanowa]

Maybe I'll just dip into 8 different classes and wait until after we start playing to pick two to go with...

Make sure you play a goblin with a paste-on mustache if you go this route.  ;D

[Mantis Shrimp Prime]

This would be too stupid to actually play with, but as a thought experiment, I have to wonder how a character would look with only 1 level in a class for their whole career.
Especially in a gestalt game.

[kckolbe]

Well, it is actually a better idea in 3.5 than in pathfinder, and works better for skill/combat chars than casters.  I've done it before after rolling *amazing* stats in a game.

[Mantis Shrimp Prime]

Well, it is actually a better idea in 3.5 than in pathfinder, and works better for skill/combat chars than casters.  I've done it before after rolling *amazing* stats in a game.

Yeah. At least in a gestalt game it's easier to fill in the gaps.

[kckolbe]

So for the paladin/alchemist, what kind of chars do you want in each form? 

[Mantis Shrimp Prime]

Uh, what do you mean?

[PhantomPistoleer]

Okay, for the second game, I would like to build a Monk/Fighter.

Which is weird, because I feel like the second game is the first game, which is all right by me. 

What is character construction like for the second, less complicated game?

[Ixy]

I dunno... what do you think?  Gestalt again, or non?  Level?  Content preferences?

I could go something more like level 6 gestalt, high point-buy.  Damn, I really just want a story that goes somewhere and has something interesting happen.

[PhantomPistoleer]

I dunno... what do you think?  Gestalt again, or non?  Level?  Content preferences?

I could go something more like level 6 gestalt, high point-buy.  Damn, I really just want a story that goes somewhere and has something interesting happen.

Level 6 gestalt with a 25 point buy would be fine by me.

[Chulanowa]

So, uh. Just to check... Are there actual Pathfinder gestalt rules somewhere, or is it just a transport o 3.5 to pathfinder?

[Ixy]

I didn't really find any rules.  My understanding is this:

Skills- both classes' skill are now class skills, take the higher number of skills for the two classes (ex: if one gets 4/level, the other gets 8/level, take 8/level.)
HP, Save, and BAB: take the higher of the two classes for each
Class features: take both, at every level (class abilities, bonus feats, spell-like powers, spells, etc.)

I'm not really clear on combining two similar classes... like, sorcerer/wizard, I guess you get a separate spell list for each class, casting sorc spells spontaneously and prepping wizard spells?  Dang that's a lot of spells per day.  I know that the original conception, though, was to allow smaller groups to fill all class roles.

[Mantis Shrimp Prime]

Even in 3.5, the gestalt rules were just kind of a hack-in for ideas for possible alternate games, and required a lot of GM thought to work out.

Another one is you can't take two prestige classes, though that's usually one I often house-ruled away when running gestalt games.
The other is you can't take a prestige class that focuses on combining two classes (i.e. Mystic Theurge).

Also, my general guideline is "how does it work in multiclass?" So for Sorcerer/Wizard, in multiclass you normally get one level of casting each. But if it's druid/ranger, you don't get a second animal companion, your levels stack.


Gestalt is one of those things I really like for versatile characters, but it comes with the fact you just gotta accept it'll be wildly imbalanced since some choices just complement better.

Multiclassing itself can get really complicated too since the game isn't really geared toward that, and heavy multiclassing makes stuff like BAB and saves go all wonky if you just use the charts instead of breaking down the mathematical progression.

[kckolbe]

The second does seem more of a hack and slash, so more straightforward.

"Gestalt is one of those things I really like for versatile characters, but it comes with the fact you just gotta accept it'll be wildly imbalanced since some choices just complement better."

Gestalt does kill one aspect of pathfinder, in that it is easier to make bad decisions.  Just like in 3.5, some chars will be considerably stronger than others.  Also, when comparing normal to gestalt, treat gestalt as 1.5 levels/level.  So a level 6 gestalt and a level 9 "normal" will be about even.  The gestalt will be more rounded, but the level 9 will be more focused, no big surprise there.  My last gestalt, the magus/rogue, was built more to be comparable to a lvl 6 Magus.

"Uh, what do you mean?"

I just mean what do you want the char to be good at in each mode, and what kind of "feel" do you want from each?

[Mantis Shrimp Prime]

I just mean what do you want the char to be good at in each mode, and what kind of "feel" do you want from each?

Well, they'd obviously have the same skills and feats and such. It's just, one is good, one is evil, so the paladin abilities become antipaladin abilities.
It's just a musing idea I had and not something I've thought too much into. It's probably not even what I'm looking to go for.

[kckolbe]

Well, they'd obviously have the same skills and feats and such. It's just, one is good, one is evil, so the paladin abilities become antipaladin abilities.
It's just a musing idea I had and not something I've thought too much into. It's probably not even what I'm looking to go for.

I was kind of thinking the same thing, that a different path might make more sense.  A Wizard/Barbarian or Alchemist or Investigator/Barbarian kind of gives you the same thing, especially since except for "Urban Barbarian," you can't cast spells while raging, so you get two different ability sets, and as a transmuter or alchemist, there is the same feel of magic experimentation. 

[Mantis Shrimp Prime]

This was specifically inspired by the Master Chymist and it's Dr. Jekyll/Mr. Hyde schtick. Since that already has the alternate personality, I was thinking about odd ways to play around with that. Stuff like the alternate persona maybe having a different archetype, or whatever.

[Chulanowa]

Okay so, it works like...

   Classes: You can combine two classes, but not two variants of the same class (So for pathfinder, no Skirmisher Ranger / Divine Tracker Ranger, or Cavalier / Samurai combos)

   Hit Dice: Choose the higher of the two classes' HD. A Barbarian / Sorcerer uses D12, for instance.

   Saves: For each save bonus, choose the better progression between the two classes. So a Fighter / Wizard gestalt gets the good Fortitude progression of the Fighter, the good Will progression of the Wizard, and the poor Reflex progression of both. This is the progression itself, not the bonuses, so it doesn't "stack" - a Ranger / Monk 1 has a Save lineup of F+2 / R+2 / W+2, not F+4 / R+4 / W+2.

   Base Attack Bonus: Choose the better progression of either class.

   Skills: You get the higher number of skill points between the two classes, and treat all skills from both classes as "Class skills."

   Class Features: You just combine them; Our 1st-level Ranger / Monk gets Favored Enemy, Track, Wild Empathy, a Monk bonus feat, flurry of blows, stunning fist, and unarmed strike.

   If both classes provide a feature at different levels, you get the earlier entry first. A Barbarian / Rogue gets Uncanny Dodge at level 2, instead of level 4

   Class restrictions still apply; a Paladin / Anything gestalt must be Lawful Good, for instance, a cavalier / druid can't wear metal armor, and a fighter / wizard has to contend with arcane spell failure.

   *Pathfinder Special*: Some Pathfinder classes have abilities that are similar but different - a good example is the cavalier Mount and the druid animal companion. Under Pathfinder multiclassing rules, a Druid / Cavalier multiclass character can either have a creature from the Cavalier mount list as his druid companion, progressing it with his full levels, or he can take both features, and have both a mount and a companion, though both are weaker due to splitting his levels between the two. I would suggest that for a gestalt, conflicts like this default to the simplest solution; the Cavalier / Druid gets a druid companion that can work like a Cavalier mount. Congratulations, you're riding a T-rex.

Spellcasting:

I'm easily confused

The "basic" rules say that you track spell slots separately, while the examples (Cleric / Sorcerer, Wizard / Sorcerer) say it works like Mystic Theurge "On Steroids"

On the one hand, you could have a Sorceracle gestalt, and it knows 4 level-0 oracle spells, four level-0 Sorcerer spells, two level-1 oracle spells and two level-1 Sorcerer spells. Assuming 18 charisma, it has 4 Spontaneous slots just for oracle spells, and 4 spontaneous spell slots just for sorcerer spells.

On the other hand, the Sorceracle knows all those spells, but can mix-and-match as they please; maybe they want eight sorcerer spells today. Or six oracle spells and two Sorcerer spells.

or... "kind of both" - The Druid / Cleric has Two Druid slots, two cleric slots, one domain lot. he can prepare four instances of Magic Fang if he likes (that domain slot is domain-only) but can only use his two druid slots for Summon Nature's ally - the same with Cure spells and his Cleric slots.  or... the spontaneous / prepared version of that, a Witcherer has a familiar that contains all the level 0 Witch spells, plus 3+Int level 1 Witch spells. He also knows four Sorcerer/Wizard level-0 spells, and two level-1 Wizard/Sorcerer spells. He has 4 prepared level-0 slots, two level-1 prepared slots, and two spontaneous level-1 slots. He can prepare any combination of his Sorcerer and Witch spells, and can spontaneously cast any spell he Knows or has prepared, with his spontaneous slots. If a Wizard / Witch loses their wizard familiar, they can only prepare Wizard spells; if the familiar ran off with their spellbook before getting killed, they're stuck with what they had prepared before that disaster. That sort of thing.

since in pathfinder, there are only a few classes that wholly lack spellcasting ability (Barbarian, Brawler, Cavalier, Fighter, Gunslinger, Swashbuckler) I think it's definitely need-to-know

   Multiclassing and Prestige Classes: You can multiclass with another gestalt combination or a single class, if you prefer. Prestige classes can also be used as gestalts (though again, their requiements and restrictions remain.)

   *Pathfinder Bonus*: Favored Class Bonuses; Want to just say that you pick a gestalt class as your favored class, and gain one of the following: +2 hit Points, +2 skill points, +1 HP and +1 Skill point, +1 HP and one alternate FCB, +1 Skill point and one alternate FCB, or the FCB of both classes in your favored gestalt?

[Mantis Shrimp Prime]

I don't think it'd be too much of a problem to let a gestalt druid/cavalier have both a mount AND full animal companion (I imagine riding around on a horse, and then having a falcon to sic on people). Especially because the rules do give you the option of getting both if you multiclass.

Of course, a druid has a secondary option for nature's bond, so you could pick that and then have the cavalier mount. That might be simpler.


As to spells, I think the simplest approach is to just have their class progressions be different. Again, use the example of how that character treats their spells if they multiclassed.
Since if you think about it, each class's spellcasting is the result of separate path. A Cleric is empowered by her deity (giving her the Cleric spells), and a Druid is draws power from nature (giving her the Druid spells).
Likewise, a Sorcerer draws power from her bloodline, while an Oracle gets them from... divine mystery/curse or whatever.



For favored class stuff... say, pick a favored class as normal. And also, have a limit that you have a limit of favored class bonuses equal to your character level (to prevent certain half-elf/human shenanigans).






In the absence of a fixed GM, we might want to elect someone to adjudicate things like this.

[Chulanowa]

Generally, a multiclassed animal companion splits between the two classes, unless the animal in question is on both lists. And i'm just having nightmares of someone coming up with some mess like a Halfling Cavalier / Arcane Sorcerer 1, Summoner / Druid 1, and having his own actions, a mount, companion, eidolon, familiar, Summon Monster and Summon nature's Ally all flying around.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MNu_kqxqbew

[Mantis Shrimp Prime]

And when they hit level 7, they take Leadership!

[kckolbe]

And i'm just having nightmares of someone coming up with some mess like a Halfling Cavalier / Arcane Sorcerer 1, Summoner / Druid 1, and having his own actions, a mount, companion, eidolon, familiar, Summon Monster and Summon nature's Ally all flying around.

Against level 4 gestalts?  They'd all be fairly useless. 

[Chulanowa]

Against level 4 gestalts?  They'd all be fairly useless.

It still takes half a damn hour for him to finish his round though.  ;D

[PhantomPistoleer]

I think I want to do a Ranger/Summoner.  o_O  Is that weird?

[Mantis Shrimp Prime]

A few miscellaneous character idea...

A kitsune ninja/bard (with the geisha archetype). Anime furry extraordinaire!!

A bloodrager/antipaladin (half-orc?) whose dialogue would be entirely quoted from heavy metal lyrics.
If I don't use this one as my PC I definitely want to make it as a villain.

A swashbuckler/bard (dervish dancer archetype). Mostly built around the dancing angle, since I had the idea of a character who has a former exotic dancer before they became an adventurer.

A brawler/monk (using the stranger and martial artist archetypes). Would take the leadership feat. His cohort would be his master, a monk with the sensei archetype, who he has surpassed in power, but not wisdom. The followers would be other, lesser members of his dojo.

[kckolbe]

I don't think brawler/monk is allowed, since brawler is a hybrid of monk and fighter.  The concept is interesting, though.  Also, the bloodrager would probably make a better villain. 

[Mantis Shrimp Prime]

I don't think brawler/monk is allowed, since brawler is a hybrid of monk and fighter.  The concept is interesting, though.  Also, the bloodrager would probably make a better villain.

That clause refers specifically to prestige classes that progress abilities like two classes, not base classes.

[PhantomPistoleer]

Okay, so, instead, I'm going to go with a ranger/monk (zen archer).  So he's an archer. o_o

[Mantis Shrimp Prime]

Okay, so, instead, I'm going to go with a ranger/monk (zen archer).  So he's an archer. o_o

I guess you could say all his enemies will be in the...  danger zone.
(⌐■_■)

[Chulanowa]

Yeah, Paizo scrapped the "no multiclassing with a parent class" idea for hybrids. I see no reason why it should be restricted for gestalt. At best, you're creating a character on par with other gestalts, who trades their flexibility for focus. at worst, you get something that makes you ask, "why bother?" (Hunter / Druid and Witch / Shaman for instance, seem like terrible combos.) it's far from overpowere, and for the sake of swashbuckler / Rogues everywhere, I say, let them be!

So are we just lobbing out character ideas for any of the ideas, or...?

[Mantis Shrimp Prime]

I'm getting the character ideas out of my system, so I can settle on one and not feel like I shoulda tried something else.

[PhantomPistoleer]

   *Pathfinder Bonus*: Favored Class Bonuses; Want to just say that you pick a gestalt class as your favored class, and gain one of the following: +2 hit Points, +2 skill points, +1 HP and +1 Skill point, +1 HP and one alternate FCB, +1 Skill point and one alternate FCB, or the FCB of both classes in your favored gestalt?

I really like your work, and I didn't realize that this was how you did things.

Question:

Starting GP for 6th levels is 16,000.  Is this sufficient?  Or should it be a little higher?

[kckolbe]

I'd rather leave one favored bonus, especially as I plan on taking one class all the way through, and multiclassing the other "side."

Regarding wealth, gestalts are 1.5 levels/level, so I would imagine that the level 4 game would start with 6th level wealth, and the level  game would start with level 9.  I'm only interested in the level 4 one, by the way.

[Chulanowa]

The 1.5 levels thing is a mechanic for calculating appropriate challenge rating for encounters vs. gestalts. They're still level 4 characters, and would get level 4 wealth.

Not sure what you mean by the multiclassing thing though.

[kckolbe]

For multiclassing, I meant that my level 4 gestalt would be a level 4 magus, level 2 rogue, level 2 fighter.

[Mantis Shrimp Prime]

The details for the first story idea (which is the one I still liked), were level 4 gestalt, 25 point buy, 12000 starting gold, 1 trait.

[kckolbe]

Yes, which is what I just described.