M.A.D @ Elliquiy - A Manga/Anime Discussion Group

[Caeli]

M.A.D @ Elliquiy

A Manga/Anime Discussion Group

Welcome! This is an online anime/manga club created for the purpose of gathering anime fans on Elliquiy so we can discuss TV anime series, manga, and anime films with other like-minded Elliquians. All fans are welcome, whether you're into mechas, magical girls, sports, or comedic fanservice.

Though discussions about related topics will also take place in this thread, we also vote on series to watch and discuss together. These series are not limited to any single genre. Even if you don't think it's something you'll enjoy, give it a try - you might surprise yourself, or at the very least, you'll be able to spice up any ensuing discussions that take place here!

Don't be shy, you can jump into the discussion at any time. ;D Introduce yourself, make some new friends, and be ready to have an excuse to watch more anime!



An Important Message Regarding Thread Policy and Elliquiy Rules

Before I begin, I would like to state as a disclaimer that I do not work with copyright law, nor am I an expert in the field, and thus anything that I say here is gathered from other sources, and my own interpretation and understanding of those sources. Where possible, I will provide links so you can also read them yourself and familiarize yourself with the information. It is not necessary nor required for you to read any of the external links provided in order to understand what I am trying to say.

This message exists because I would like to keep all activities and conversations in this group completely free of rule-breaking activity and infringement of Elliquiy's rules, especially this one:

5. This server is governed by the laws of the United States. You will not link to or provide warez, illegal pdfs or mp3s, and so on. Threats will be dealt with accordingly.

There is to be absolutely no discussion of how to find free episodes (or fansubs), where or how to download them, or where to stream them, etc. unless the source is a legal provider of the anime series in question. If you obtained your anime elsewise, please don't share how. That doesn't mean you can't watch fansubs or stream it somewhere not listed in the below; you just can't say how you got those episodes or where you watched them.

Below is just some general information about fansubs, their legality, and where you can find legal anime online that is purely for informative purposes.

The Legality of Fansubs

The Legality of Fansubs

Fansubs are illegal. The inherent creation and redistribution of fansubs violates most of the protections that Japanese copyright law gives to the creators of an anime. International treaties such as the Berne Convention for the Protection of Literary and Artistic Works allow for countries to protect their copyrights in other regions of the world (mainly, the signatories of said treaties). Thus, copyright applies even in countries where the series is not distributed.

A fellow anime fan put together a page that addresses myths and questions regarding fansubbing. I have reproduced the page in its entirety in the spoiler below in case the page is ever taken down. It is a very concise FAQ that answers the most common questions about fansubbing, and if you read nothing else, please read that.

Fansubbing: Myths and FAQ by DarkMirage

Fansubbing: Myths and FAQ
By DarkMirage - 11/12/2004

Recently, Media Factory Inc. issued a legal statement to AnimeSuki, requesting the removal of the site's BitTorrent listings for MFI intellectual properties. This turn of events took the fansubbing community by surprise as it was not an American company, but a Japanese one that made the request. The responses were loud and violent, as teenagers with questionable language abilities flocked to forums and chatrooms, each and every one of them eager to express his/her discontents through deep and profound posts that often consisted of words not exceeding four-characters long. The opinions expressed can generally be summarized as "confused" and "misguided", with some even nearing the realm of "retardation". This has significantly lowered my hopes for the future of humanity and so I have decide to create this semi-FAQ to facilitate my crusade against idiocy and ignorance. Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against fansubs. I am part of a fansubbing group and I find fansubbers in general to be fine folks. I just hate those morons going on in forums about their constitutional rights to download and watch fansubs.

Pardon my poor English, for, unlike many of those forum-goers, it is not my mother-tongue.

Fansubs are legal.
The unauthorized reproduction and distribution of copyrighted material is far from legal. See: Copyright.

Fansubs are legal as long as the series in question is not licensed for distribution in the region where the fansubs are being distributed in.
Completely false. Fansubs are illegal whether the series is licensed for distribution or not. This is because the copyright (which is completely unrelated to the right of distribution) applies even in countries where the series is not distributed in. See: the Berne Convention, specifically the parts about nationality of author, rights of translation and rights of reproduction. Here's a full list of signatories to the Convention. It is interesting to note that the mere act of making an unauthorized translation available for public usage is already illegal, much less the actual copyrighted footage.

Fansubs are legal because they are not being done for commercial purposes.
False. Fansubs are illegal whether they are being exchanged for objects of monetary worth. Just like copies of pirated software are illegal whether they are being offered for download or sold at roadside stalls. See: Statutory Damages. As for the so-called "educational" purposes claimed by some fansubbing zealots, please refer to the question below.

Fansubs are legal in America and some other countries under the Fair Use / Fair Dealing clause.
No. No they are not. The unauthorized reproduction, translation and subsequent distribution of the entire length of a copyrighted animation is not protected by Fair Use in anyway whatsoever. The only protections Fair Use might give would be, for example, if you were to make a self-subtitled copy of a work you own legally and view it in your own privacy. This can include close friends and family, but whether all two hundred of your fellow anime club members count for close friends will be decided by the jury and not you. Using parts of a copyrighted work for the purpose of parodies, reviews, news report, teaching material etc. is also covered under Fair Use as long as they do not constitute a huge portion of the work in question. This means that fansubs do not qualify. For a more detailed explanation of Fair Use, see here.

Fansubs are legal... somehow.
No. They are not. Just give up already.

My friend/brother/uncle/cousin-twice-removed/random guy on IRC/etcetera told me that fansubbing is legal because of [insert reason here].
He/she/it lies.

If unlicensed fansubs are illegal, why were they tolerated? And why the sudden change?
To put it simply: fansubs helped to promote anime back when the word "anime" was not part of English and most animations on TV were Hana-Barbara, Disney and whatever else you Americans had. They were tolerated by Japanese companies for this purpose. Most studios also felt that it was not worth the effort to sue North American fansubbers, as they had, at that time, no assets in North America to protect. Suing could also potentially isolate their new fans and close up a potential market.

Today however, you ("you" being North Americans) can watch anime on cable TV, buy anime DVDs from any DVD stores, join an anime club in school and read about all the latest anime news on the internet. Fansubs today no longer play that single vital role in promoting a new series to foreign audiences. Yet because of their mass-availability through the internet, they are now hurting the sales of legitimate DVDs in North America, Asia and other regions. For this reason, Japanese companies have slowly started to take actions against fansubbers instead of waiting for a foreign distributor to do the job.

Japanese companies cannot sue American fansubbers and need to do it through American distributors.
False. Japanese companies have always been able to take legal actions against North American fansubbers. They just chose not to because they decided that committing the resources to do so was not worth the effort. Contracting an American law firm to represent you in US court is not exactly cheap and certainly time-consuming. It was, and still is, simpler to let an American distributor do the job. However, more Japanese companies are now willing to take actions directly to protect their interests due to developments in recent years such as the high broadband internet penetration and the exponential growth of anime subculture in North America.

I am poor! I can't afford legitimate DVDs! Those evil money-hungry companies have no right to make me pay so much for my anime!!!
The companies made those DVDs and the contents within. They, as the copyright holders, have complete control over what they want to do with their intellectual properties. No one is "making" you buy anime DVDs. You have logical thinking skills and free-will (or so I'd like to believe); if a product is overpriced, then don't buy it! As for companies being money-hungry, please see: Capitalism.

I don't live in North America or any place where legitimate anime can be purchased!
Tough luck. Entertainment isn't a basic human right. The companies have no obligations to make sure that their products are made available to everyone. It's not oxygen for god's sake.

If you find any factual errors in this FAQ, please feel free to e-mail me in a non-threatening manner. I will correct any mistakes ASAP.
You may use the contents of this page in anyway you deem necessary to raise copyright awareness in the fansubbing community.
©2004 DarkMirage

Legal Streaming and Download Sites for Anime

Legal Streaming and Download Sites for Anime

One of the users on Crunchyroll created a list of legal anime streaming and download sites from which you can get your anime fix. I have provided a shortened list of the most popular sites in the spoilers below.

Quick notes about these sites:
- Most of these services are only available for the North American audience, unless stated otherwise.
- All the streaming sites, unless otherwise noted, offer free viewing of their content.
- If an episode is available for download, usually a nominal fee is required, about $1.99.

Legal Streaming Sites

crunchyroll: http://www.crunchyroll.com/
*http://www.crunchyroll.com/library/IndexAnime
- Basic membership lets the user view almost everything, but there is a "week" waiting period for the newer content.
- The site requires a Star Membership to use some of it’s features like “advanced” viewing, 480p or “720p” "quality," and to access some of it’s contents.
- Episodes can be purchased and downloaded here http://www.crunchyroll.com/store.
- The shows' episode release dates are here http://www.crunchyroll.com/launchcalendar.

FUNimation: http://www.funimation.com/
*http://www.funimation.com/video/
*FUNimation Download-To-Own Video Store: http://www.funimation.com/f_index.cfm?page=vod
*Veoh Channel: http://www.veoh.com/search/videos/q/publisher:FUNimation
- Shows update weekly with maybe one or two episodes.
- Episodes are available for download for $1.99.

The Anime Network: http://www.theanimenetwork.com/
*http://www.theanimenetwork.com/index.php?option=com_vods&Itemid=62
- A registered account is required to access the series. Most series are subjected to a subscription fee, which is $6.95 a month.

Hulu: http://hulu.com
*http://www.hulu.com/search?page=1&query=anime&sort_by=relevance&type=episode
- Like that of regular T.V. shows, there will be the "occasional" commercial breaks.
- Most of the videos allow the user to watch the video at either 360p or 480p quality.

Netflix: http://www.netflix.com/
- A memberships is required to view the content. Plans start as low as $4.99/month.
- Show of the content here can or can't be viewed online. It just depends.

Legal Streaming on YouTube

YouTube Animation & Cartoons: http://www.youtube.com/shows/animation?l=en&pt=g

FUNimation: http://www.youtube.com/user/FUNimation
- Some of these videos are in parts.
- There is a HQ, high quality, option for some of the series.

Bandai: http://www.youtube.com/user/BandaiEntertainment

animenetwork: http://www.youtube.com/user/animenetwork

Kadokawa Entertainment: http://www.youtube.com/user/KADOKAWAanime
- Available Worldwide

GONG: http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=GONG&view=playlists

I will not provide the links to the pay-to-download sites, because I want to advocate free legal options for everyone here. If you are interested in purchasing your anime, DudelRok suggests that, "If you are gonna buy (as that's the only way to get legal downloads) just go find yourself a full on physical copy. Such a better deal and you get pretty box art!"

If you live in a region that is not North America and would like to have some region-specific links added to this page, please PM me.

Last Words

It is not against Elliquiy's rules to watch anime (or any television/movie shows/etc.) that is not legally obtained; it is only against the rules to mention the methods that you used to obtain them. This notice is meant to be reasonable step to make those resources available to those who want to use them.

Thank you for taking the time to read this.

[Caeli]

So, first post just to iron out the first series we're watching together - is there at least a general consensus (or no objections) to Sayonara, Zetsubou-Sensei? It seemed to have more interest than some of the others, for the first series.

For more information about the series, read on for some quick snippets, or you can head on over to Anime News Network or Wikipedia.



Sayonara, Zetsubou-Sensei (さよなら 絶望先生 Sayonara Zetsubō Sensei?, literally "Goodbye, Mr. Despair") is a Japanese manga by Kōji Kumeta, serialized in Weekly Shōnen Magazine. It is a comedy about a teacher who takes all aspects of life, word and culture in the most negative light possible. It satirizes politics, media, and Japanese society. In 2007, the manga received the thirty-first Kodansha Manga Award in the shōnen category, and was adapted into a twelve-episode anime series.  -- Wikipedia

Itoshiki Nozomu is the world's most negative person. To his way of thinking, there is no hope or meaning in this existence. Even the three kanji of his name become the two-kanji word zetsubou, "despair", when compressed. What an ironic twist of fate, then, that he becomes teacher to a class containing his precise opposite, the invincibly positive-minded Fuura Kafuka. -- Anime News Network

[Tiaan]

No objections from me, I am looking forward to it!

[Sure]

I'll join in, if you'll have me. And I have no objections to Sayonara, Zetsubo-Sensei.

[Tiaan]

Welcome Sure! *waves*

[Chris Brady]

Sure I guess.   Seeing as each of his students is a living embodiment of a psychological 'problem', should amusing to watch...

[Haibane]

I'm here!

Caeli, will you set a date to watch the first episode by, and then open the discussion on Episode 1 on that date? As to keeping the conversation going, will you set a fixed timetable like 1 epiosde per week, or 2 per week, or will you let the conversation about each episode naturally conclude before you open the discussion for the next?

[Caeli]

I've actually never been in an anime club, so I don't know how best to run discussions like this. I wouldn't mind hearing some input to see how other people feel about having a timetable of sorts to watch the series.

[Tiaan]

I reckon a set time each week to open up the discussion for the next episode - to avoid inadvertently giving spoilers to any who didn't watch it yet. I guess the previous week's discussion concludes as soon as that day/time is reached. One episode a week would keep it nice and rounded, less confusing than two different days for new discussion~ Those are my thoughts anyway!

[Haruki]

I'll jump in this one.  Thanks for setting it up, Caeli.  ^_^

[Haibane]

I reckon a set time each week to open up the discussion for the next episode - to avoid inadvertently giving spoilers to any who didn't watch it yet. I guess the previous week's discussion concludes as soon as that day/time is reached. One episode a week would keep it nice and rounded, less confusing than two different days for new discussion~ Those are my thoughts anyway!

Perhaps we could play it by ear? If there's lots of discussion a week might not be enough, and if there's little it could be too long, so how about we just agree when we've finished discussing an episode and Caeli can put up a bold header for the next episode at which point everyone should assume that spoilers are to be found below that banner.

[Caeli]

I think having a group consensus would work better than a set timetable, since (being an online group) we can technically check in and contribute discussion whenever we want (as opposed to a RL group, which might be limited to a certain day of the week for meetings).

That's another thing to discuss - the use of spoilers. How does everyone feel about those?

[Tiaan]

What do you mean by spoilers? In our discussions, about the episode we are on? or stuff about how the series plays out further along from people who've already seen it... (forgive my ignorance!)

I think talking about events up to wherever we're at is fine, might be harder to discuss if we need to be careful about revealing anything. We can use a bold banner like Haibane suggested to announce which episode we're on.

[NightRabbit]

Hello everyone! May I join in too?

[Haruki]

Tiaan:  For spoilers as we watch the episodes, that's what the

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide

Spoiler Tags

are for.

I'd think during discussion, if we may be giving possible spoilers, cloak that info within those tags.

[CmdrRenegade]

You can count me in for this too!

[Koibito]

I'm in for the club, but like I said: I'll pick and choose which series I join in on the group reading/watching.

[Caeli]

Hello everyone! May I join in too?

You can count me in for this too!

I'm in for the club, but like I said: I'll pick and choose which series I join in on the group reading/watching.

You're all welcome to join in whenever you'd like. :D


As for spoilers - I think we should try to keep big events hidden to keep from spoiling the episode for someone who might not have watched the episode(s) yet. Not everything needs to be spoilered - for example, if you're discussing a character's traits and behavior, you probably won't need to spoiler anything unless you mention specific events that happen.

Since there isn't really a good way to do in-line spoilers, you can always try using footnotes like so¹, or parentheses like so (2), and then placing all redacted information into a spoiler at the end of the post, so people can open the spoiler and use the notes as references, while still being able to read the comments with less disruption to the flow of text.

Those are intricacies though. ^-^

Since I haven't gotten any objects so far, I'm going to assume we'll be watching Sayonara, Zetsubou-Sensei. Does anyone have a suggested "watch-by" date? I'd say no earlier than Monday or Tuesday of next week (GMT -8), but I feel like a full week would be too long.

[Haibane]

To all the new arrivals - welcome! You're all very free to contribute.

Personally this is the way I have done this in the past. The thread organiser (in this case Caeli) would put up a post when one episode is finished being discussed and the concensus is we are ready to begin the next episode's chatter. Some kind of bold clear heading is used in a big font that announces the next episiode. That in itself counts as a spoiler marker - if you haven't watched that episide yet then you should not read below that heading. No other spoiler tags are necessary and everything talked about will reveal plot and character info in that episode to everyone who reads it.

By the simple use of this process it also means that no information of any kind may be revealed about episodes later in the series than that. We're discussing only and up to that particular episode. To those who have seen the series before you'll just have to please try your very best not to aim the points in your posts at future things given in the series.

No spoiler tags are therefore needed.

How does that sound?

Since I haven't gotten any objects so far, I'm going to assume we'll be watching Sayonara, Zetsubou-Sensei. Does anyone have a suggested "watch-by" date? I'd say no earlier than Monday or Tuesday of next week (GMT -8), but I feel like a full week would be too long.

My understanding is we watch an episode at a time and discuss an episode at a time. So our thoughts and views are limited to events up to that episode. Unless we are a person whose watched the series before, we watch it as we discuss it, thus there can't be any spoilers.

This is the way I have done anime clubs in the past. We discus as we watch, not all watch the whole series first then discuss it.

[Tiaan]

I think the 'watch by' date referred to the first episode. Am I wrong?

If that's the case, I think Monday or Tuesday is fine, no need to wait a week from now. Personally I think it's better if we start new discussions on the same time each week, since if someone's offline for a few days they don't miss the discussion because an episode's been watched early. Maybe a 'minimum new episode time', so if the discussion goes on longer we can delay it... but don't watch a new one before?

[NightRabbit]

I agree with Tiaan. I think we should give a couple days grace period just in case the episode discussion goes on for longer than expected and so people who might have been busy can catch up. I also like Haibane's idea of sing the headers to mark when a discussion is starting.

[Haruki]

Monday or Tuesday works for me.  I just need to go find this anime we're going to do.  I have a lot on hand (on DVD), but some I do not.  Obviously, some haven't been licensed at all for DVD release, but are instead, in streaming form.

I'll have to go find something over the weekend.

[Major Major]

Just one thing.... Have a heart for us with very, very slow internet connections.

[Faustus]

Just one thing.... Have a heart for us with very, very slow internet connections.

I hear ya, Major Major. My dial-up enjoys keeping me from obtaining things as readily as I want them.

For locations to gather said series, I have sources for most of them. These locations have proven virus-free in the past, and the subtitle quality has been very nice. The subtitling on the series has also been done quite well (I am far from fluent or even conversationally-sound in the language, so I can't say : but a friend of mine is fluent in the spoken language, and she vouches on it).

I also have many of these series downloaded onto harddrives, so for people with slow-connections, if you can obtain high-speed long enough to download the episode direct, I can provide the links for you!

[Caeli]

To all the new arrivals - welcome! You're all very free to contribute.

Personally this is the way I have done this in the past. The thread organiser (in this case Caeli) would put up a post when one episode is finished being discussed and the concensus is we are ready to begin the next episode's chatter. Some kind of bold clear heading is used in a big font that announces the next episiode. That in itself counts as a spoiler marker - if you haven't watched that episide yet then you should not read below that heading. No other spoiler tags are necessary and everything talked about will reveal plot and character info in that episode to everyone who reads it.

By the simple use of this process it also means that no information of any kind may be revealed about episodes later in the series than that. We're discussing only and up to that particular episode. To those who have seen the series before you'll just have to please try your very best not to aim the points in your posts at future things given in the series.

No spoiler tags are therefore needed.

How does that sound?

My understanding is we watch an episode at a time and discuss an episode at a time. So our thoughts and views are limited to events up to that episode. Unless we are a person whose watched the series before, we watch it as we discuss it, thus there can't be any spoilers.

This is the way I have done anime clubs in the past. We discus as we watch, not all watch the whole series first then discuss it.

That sounds perfect, Haibane.

I'm going to set our watch-by date for Episode 1 of Sayonara, Zetsubou-Sensei for 12:00am, Tuesday January 31, at which point we will begin discussing. I'll be providing, large, impossible-not-to-notice text to "section" off when the discussion will start and end.

[Haibane]

So, first post just to iron out the first series we're watching together - is there at least a general consensus (or no objections) to Sayonara, Zetsubou-Sensei? It seemed to have more interest than some of the others, for the first series.

For more information about the series, read on for some quick snippets, or you can head on over to Anime News Network or Wikipedia.



Sayonara, Zetsubou-Sensei (さよなら 絶望先生 Sayonara Zetsubō Sensei?, literally "Goodbye, Mr. Despair") is a Japanese manga by Kōji Kumeta, serialized in Weekly Shōnen Magazine. It is a comedy about a teacher who takes all aspects of life, word and culture in the most negative light possible. It satirizes politics, media, and Japanese society. In 2007, the manga received the thirty-first Kodansha Manga Award in the shōnen category, and was adapted into a twelve-episode anime series.  -- Wikipedia

Itoshiki Nozomu is the world's most negative person. To his way of thinking, there is no hope or meaning in this existence. Even the three kanji of his name become the two-kanji word zetsubou, "despair", when compressed. What an ironic twist of fate, then, that he becomes teacher to a class containing his precise opposite, the invincibly positive-minded Fuura Kafuka. -- Anime News Network

Just wanted to check - the anime we are watching is the THIRD series in this anime story, right?

[Caeli]

I'm pretty sure it's the first in the series, the one that originally aired in 2007. The title of the first episode is Sayonara, Zetsubou-Sensei (the subs translated it as "So Long, Mr. Despair").

[Haibane]

Good thing I asked, the download I'd found was for the 3rd series. I have the right one now.

[DudelRok]

Thread Bookmarked!

As I've read everything in the thread so far, here are my comments.

I'll watch whatever. Unlike a lot of y'all I have way too much time to kill. I could easily knock a 12 Ep Anime in a day and still have time to do other stuff. Grass is always greener. Trust me, it's not a good thing. Personally, though, I'll space things out to prevent myself from accidentally spoiling.

Speaking of spoilers (Spoiler) That's how you label them, typically. At least in every game forum I've ever looked at or show I've discussed with friends. I like to know some spoilers, myself. Especially if a show is dragging on. Gives me something to look forward to. (/Spoiler)

I'm actually looking forward to this one, though. It might be very funny. Or it might be god awful and give me something to complain about. Either way, discuss with others.

[Haruki]

I hear ya, Major Major. My dial-up enjoys keeping me from obtaining things as readily as I want them.

For locations to gather said series, I have sources for most of them. These locations have proven virus-free in the past, and the subtitle quality has been very nice. The subtitling on the series has also been done quite well (I am far from fluent or even conversationally-sound in the language, so I can't say : but a friend of mine is fluent in the spoken language, and she vouches on it).

I also have many of these series downloaded onto harddrives, so for people with slow-connections, if you can obtain high-speed long enough to download the episode direct, I can provide the links for you!

I hear ya, Major Major. My dial-up enjoys keeping me from obtaining things as readily as I want them.

For locations to gather said series, I have sources for most of them. These locations have proven virus-free in the past, and the subtitle quality has been very nice. The subtitling on the series has also been done quite well (I am far from fluent or even conversationally-sound in the language, so I can't say : but a friend of mine is fluent in the spoken language, and she vouches on it).

I also have many of these series downloaded onto harddrives, so for people with slow-connections, if you can obtain high-speed long enough to download the episode direct, I can provide the links for you!

You mentioned something about having sources to the first anime we're going to follow and discuss.

I have a mere DSL line @ just under 2.0 Mbps down.  While I'm probably able to suffice with something higher than a typical 56k speed, any help in a direction to acquire the series will help immensely.

I'm glad someone brought it up in the thread.  Oftentimes those of us in the U.S. forget that those in the UK and Australia are charged per MB or somesuch......higher up/down speeds in general, but charged, unlike here in the U.S. where we're given 'unlimited' (within reason) quotas, albeit, our up/down speeds are slower than the rest of the world.

Also as such, some folks are still stuck with analog (dial-up) connections, as stated.  Not so much in North America and E. Asia (Japan mainly), but in other areas for the most part.

This was often, until early last year, why I couldn't follow newer anime titles like the one we're going to follow and discuss.

[DudelRok]

---


Edit: I implied as such.

[Caeli]

Just a reminder: Please don't share download links in this thread, or mention how to obtain anime/manga that doesn't involve making a legitimate purchase. It's against Elliquiy's rules.

[DudelRok]

Just a reminder: Please don't share download links in this thread, or mention how to obtain anime/manga that doesn't involve making a legitimate purchase. It's against Elliquiy's rules.

Ah, yes.

That'd be #5

This server is governed by the laws of the United States. You will not link to or provide warez, illegal pdfs or mp3s, and so on. Threats will be dealt with accordingly.

[Caeli]

It wasn't really pushing it all that terribly, but I know in the past, merely mentioning how to go about it made staff really wary (well, it made me really wary when I was on staff; I would check on the thread for new replies to make sure the discussion wasn't breaking the rules). Just to keep it on the safe side, I want to state it upfront so that there isn't any question about where the line will be drawn on that subject in this thread. :)

[Haibane]

I'm glad someone brought it up in the thread.  Oftentimes those of us in the U.S. forget that those in the UK and Australia are charged per MB or somesuch......higher up/down speeds in general, but charged, unlike here in the U.S. where we're given 'unlimited' (within reason) quotas, albeit, our up/down speeds are slower than the rest of the world.

That has now changed for the most part. While broadband via cable or satellite isn't very common and most UK internet still travels via the phone lines, the services from ISPs are very good now to what they were 10 years ago. Most ISps also offer national coverage so there's healthy competition and a customer can usually always choose from several service prooviders. Most ISPs here offer speeds up to 20Mb over phone line with a fixed price per month for a certain ceiling of Gigabytes. Mine is 60Gigs a month which in most months is plenty. If I exceed that I just pay a few pounds more to cover the extra, but the ISP offers a handy meter on their website so I can see exactly how much I have left. Also downloads between midnight and 6:00am don't count towards my monthly total so for me many downlaods happen then.

I'm a rural area and still get an 8Mb connection.

The days of being charged per minute or per Mb are long gone here as far as I'm aware, or at least they are pretty unusual now.

I can't speak for Australia or other countries.

It wasn't really pushing it all that terribly, but I know in the past, merely mentioning how to go about it made staff really wary (well, it made me really wary when I was on staff; I would check on the thread for new replies to make sure the discussion wasn't breaking the rules). Just to keep it on the safe side, I want to state it upfront so that there isn't any question about where the line will be drawn on that subject in this thread. :)

I was thinking about this and it still bothers me. I think just knowing what this thread is about, its quite obvious that we are all watching anime and not paying for it. So what do the site staff say about that? We're not providing links but its obvious what's going on, and we're encouraging others to join in.

Actually... this bothers me a lot. Some guidance would help Caeli.

[Caeli]

I'm going to ask a friendly staff member about the issue, Haibane. :) So no worries on that score.

[Caeli]

Sorry to double post. I sent a PM to a couple of staff members, and I'll let you all know the results of our discussion when it concludes.

However, I do want to state that there are legal streaming and download sites available. There is a list provided on Crunchyroll of legal options to enjoy anime.

[DudelRok]

However, I do want to state that there are legal streaming and download sites available. There is a list provided on Crunchyroll of legal options to enjoy anime.

I'd recommend a few of those, myself. Streaming only, though, and only the ones that don't bother you with commercials.

If you are gonna buy just go find yourself a full on physical copy. Such a better deal and you get pretty box art!


Oh, and I've decided that while I can consume most of these shows fairly quickly that I'd keep on pace with everyone else to self prevent spoilers. :D

[Caeli]

Anyway, I'm still waiting on word from the staff, but I'm not going to give up on this group. We'll find a way to make it work. There are plenty of streamed series we can choose from if that's what it comes down to.

I'll keep you all updated on the staff's answer to our concerns, here. :)

[Haruki]

Been busy all weekend, so I'm just catching up now.

I'll keep an eye on this thread to know what's going on.  :)

Any anime that I've bought and own in physical formats (like Eden of the East is one of many I own), I'll be having my discs on hand next to me, since I do have a DVD / Blu Ray player on my PC I can play them back on.  Like DudelRok, I'll keep pace with the group in those instances....we don't want major spoilers.

The streaming stuff, of course, sounds like those wrinkles are still being ironed out.

[Caeli]

So I haven't gotten an answer from the staff yet, but I did want to ask the whole group - do you all want to go ahead and start the series discussions, pick a different series, or postpone until I get a definitive answer?

[Tiaan]

Maybe no news is good news? I think we should go ahead, until we are told otherwise. As mentioned before there are plenty of places to get hold of this anime legally. People talk about movies and games on this forum, a lot of which can be obtained through dubious means; it's up to the individuals what they do outside Elliquiy, I think. Those are my thoughts anyway~

[Haibane]

If Sayonara is available on one of the streaming or pay to download sites then we should definitely discuss it.

Shall we watch episode 1 now and begin discussion on... tomorrow, 1st Feb? Perhaps Caeli can put up a post with a bold header saying "GO!" or something to that effect.

[Caeli]

Hello everyone!

I contacted staff for an update, and their conclusion is that I (as the thread OP) take reasonable steps to ensure that people know where the resources are to watch anime legally, but that there will be no limitations on which series we discuss. I have further prohibited any discussion about obtaining anime illegally (if you implied as much in previous posts, please modify appropriately) to be on the safe side. In the future, please report all posts that refer to ways of obtaining anime illegally.

I have copied the notice I have now included in the first post here for your reading pleasure. You don't have to read everything (and indeed, you don't have to read it at all), but I want everyone to be aware of the information.

From the first post...

An Important Message Regarding Legalities and Copyright

Before I begin, I would like to state as a disclaimer that I do not work with copyright law, nor am I an expert in the field, and thus anything that I say here is gathered from other sources, and my own interpretation and understanding of those sources. Where possible, I will provide links so you can also read them yourself and familiarize yourself with the information. It is not necessary nor required for you to read any of the external links provided in order to understand what I am trying to say.

This message exists because I would like to keep all activities and conversations in this group completely free of rule-brekaing activity and infringement of the rules:

5. This server is governed by the laws of the United States. You will not link to or provide warez, illegal pdfs or mp3s, and so on. Threats will be dealt with accordingly.

There is to be absolutely no discussion of how to find free episodes (or fansubs), where or how to download them, or where to stream them, etc. unless the source is a legal provider of the anime series in question. I would like to encourage everyone to support the anime industry by obtaining any anime series we discuss here through legal means. That means you can stream it from legitimate sources (more detail below), download it, purchase it, or borrow it from the library or from a friend. We're all here because we enjoy, perhaps even love. anime. Support of the anime industry is crucial for its continued success in North America, as well as other regions of the world.



The Legality of Fansubs

Fansubs are illegal. The inherent creation and redistribution of fansubs violates most of the protections that Japanese copyright law gives to the creators of an anime. International treaties such as the Berne Convention for the Protection of Literary and Artistic Works allow for countries to protect their copyrights in other regions of the world (mainly, the signatories of said treaties). Thus, copyright applies even in countries where the series is not distributed. (United States Copyright Law, if you're interested.)

A fellow anime fan put together a page that addresses myths and questions regarding fansubbing. I have reproduced the page in its entirety in the spoiler below in case the page is ever taken down. It is a very concise FAQ that answers the most common questions about fansubbing, and if you read nothing else, please read that.

Fansubbing: Myths and FAQ by DarkMirage

Fansubbing: Myths and FAQ
By DarkMirage - 11/12/2004

Recently, Media Factory Inc. issued a legal statement to AnimeSuki, requesting the removal of the site's BitTorrent listings for MFI intellectual properties. This turn of events took the fansubbing community by surprise as it was not an American company, but a Japanese one that made the request. The responses were loud and violent, as teenagers with questionable language abilities flocked to forums and chatrooms, each and every one of them eager to express his/her discontents through deep and profound posts that often consisted of words not exceeding four-characters long. The opinions expressed can generally be summarized as "confused" and "misguided", with some even nearing the realm of "retardation". This has significantly lowered my hopes for the future of humanity and so I have decide to create this semi-FAQ to facilitate my crusade against idiocy and ignorance. Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against fansubs. I am part of a fansubbing group and I find fansubbers in general to be fine folks. I just hate those morons going on in forums about their constitutional rights to download and watch fansubs.

Pardon my poor English, for, unlike many of those forum-goers, it is not my mother-tongue.

Fansubs are legal.
The unauthorized reproduction and distribution of copyrighted material is far from legal. See: Copyright.

Fansubs are legal as long as the series in question is not licensed for distribution in the region where the fansubs are being distributed in.
Completely false. Fansubs are illegal whether the series is licensed for distribution or not. This is because the copyright (which is completely unrelated to the right of distribution) applies even in countries where the series is not distributed in. See: the Berne Convention, specifically the parts about nationality of author, rights of translation and rights of reproduction. Here's a full list of signatories to the Convention. It is interesting to note that the mere act of making an unauthorized translation available for public usage is already illegal, much less the actual copyrighted footage.

Fansubs are legal because they are not being done for commercial purposes.
False. Fansubs are illegal whether they are being exchanged for objects of monetary worth. Just like copies of pirated software are illegal whether they are being offered for download or sold at roadside stalls. See: Statutory Damages. As for the so-called "educational" purposes claimed by some fansubbing zealots, please refer to the question below.

Fansubs are legal in America and some other countries under the Fair Use / Fair Dealing clause.
No. No they are not. The unauthorized reproduction, translation and subsequent distribution of the entire length of a copyrighted animation is not protected by Fair Use in anyway whatsoever. The only protections Fair Use might give would be, for example, if you were to make a self-subtitled copy of a work you own legally and view it in your own privacy. This can include close friends and family, but whether all two hundred of your fellow anime club members count for close friends will be decided by the jury and not you. Using parts of a copyrighted work for the purpose of parodies, reviews, news report, teaching material etc. is also covered under Fair Use as long as they do not constitute a huge portion of the work in question. This means that fansubs do not qualify. For a more detailed explanation of Fair Use, see here.

Fansubs are legal... somehow.
No. They are not. Just give up already.

My friend/brother/uncle/cousin-twice-removed/random guy on IRC/etcetera told me that fansubbing is legal because of [insert reason here].
He/she/it lies.

If unlicensed fansubs are illegal, why were they tolerated? And why the sudden change?
To put it simply: fansubs helped to promote anime back when the word "anime" was not part of English and most animations on TV were Hana-Barbara, Disney and whatever else you Americans had. They were tolerated by Japanese companies for this purpose. Most studios also felt that it was not worth the effort to sue North American fansubbers, as they had, at that time, no assets in North America to protect. Suing could also potentially isolate their new fans and close up a potential market.

Today however, you ("you" being North Americans) can watch anime on cable TV, buy anime DVDs from any DVD stores, join an anime club in school and read about all the latest anime news on the internet. Fansubs today no longer play that single vital role in promoting a new series to foreign audiences. Yet because of their mass-availability through the internet, they are now hurting the sales of legitimate DVDs in North America, Asia and other regions. For this reason, Japanese companies have slowly started to take actions against fansubbers instead of waiting for a foreign distributor to do the job.

Japanese companies cannot sue American fansubbers and need to do it through American distributors.
False. Japanese companies have always been able to take legal actions against North American fansubbers. They just chose not to because they decided that committing the resources to do so was not worth the effort. Contracting an American law firm to represent you in US court is not exactly cheap and certainly time-consuming. It was, and still is, simpler to let an American distributor do the job. However, more Japanese companies are now willing to take actions directly to protect their interests due to developments in recent years such as the high broadband internet penetration and the exponential growth of anime subculture in North America.

I am poor! I can't afford legitimate DVDs! Those evil money-hungry companies have no right to make me pay so much for my anime!!!
The companies made those DVDs and the contents within. They, as the copyright holders, have complete control over what they want to do with their intellectual properties. No one is "making" you buy anime DVDs. You have logical thinking skills and free-will (or so I'd like to believe); if a product is overpriced, then don't buy it! As for companies being money-hungry, please see: Capitalism.

I don't live in North America or any place where legitimate anime can be purchased!
Tough luck. Entertainment isn't a basic human right. The companies have no obligations to make sure that their products are made available to everyone. It's not oxygen for god's sake.

If you find any factual errors in this FAQ, please feel free to e-mail me in a non-threatening manner. I will correct any mistakes ASAP.
You may use the contents of this page in anyway you deem necessary to raise copyright awareness in the fansubbing community.
©2004 DarkMirage

Legal Streaming and Download Sites for Anime

One of the users on Crunchyroll created a list of legal anime streaming and download sites from which you can get your anime fix. I have provided a shortened list of the most popular sites in the spoilers below.

Quick notes about these sites:
- Most of these services are only available for the North American audience, unless stated otherwise.
- All the streaming sites, unless otherwise noted, offer free viewing of their content.
- If an episode is available for download, usually a nominal fee is required, about $1.99.

Legal Streaming Sites

crunchyroll: http://www.crunchyroll.com/
*http://www.crunchyroll.com/library/IndexAnime
- Basic membership lets the user view almost everything, but there is a "week" waiting period for the newer content.
- The site requires a Star Membership to use some of it’s features like “advanced” viewing, 480p or “720p” "quality," and to access some of it’s contents.
- Episodes can be purchased and downloaded here http://www.crunchyroll.com/store.
- The shows' episode release dates are here http://www.crunchyroll.com/launchcalendar.

FUNimation: http://www.funimation.com/
*http://www.funimation.com/video/
*FUNimation Download-To-Own Video Store: http://www.funimation.com/f_index.cfm?page=vod
*Veoh Channel: http://www.veoh.com/search/videos/q/publisher:FUNimation
- Shows update weekly with maybe one or two episodes.
- Episodes are available for download for $1.99.

The Anime Network: http://www.theanimenetwork.com/
*http://www.theanimenetwork.com/index.php?option=com_vods&Itemid=62
- A registered account is required to access the series. Most series are subjected to a subscription fee, which is $6.95 a month.

Hulu: http://hulu.com
*http://www.hulu.com/search?page=1&query=anime&sort_by=relevance&type=episode
- Like that of regular T.V. shows, there will be the "occasional" commercial breaks.
- Most of the videos allow the user to watch the video at either 360p or 480p quality.

Netflix: http://www.netflix.com/
- A memberships is required to view the content. Plans start as low as $4.99/month.
- Show of the content here can or can't be viewed online. It just depends.

Legal Streaming on YouTube

YouTube Animation & Cartoons: http://www.youtube.com/shows/animation?l=en&pt=g

FUNimation: http://www.youtube.com/user/FUNimation
- Some of these videos are in parts.
- There is a HQ, high quality, option for some of the series.

Bandai: http://www.youtube.com/user/BandaiEntertainment

animenetwork: http://www.youtube.com/user/animenetwork

Kadokawa Entertainment: http://www.youtube.com/user/KADOKAWAanime
- Available Worldwide

GONG: http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=GONG&view=playlists

I will not provide the links to the pay-to-download sites, because I want to advocate free legal options for everyone here. If you are interested in purchasing your anime, DudelRok suggests that, "If you are gonna buy (as that's the only way to get legal downloads) just go find yourself a full on physical copy. Such a better deal and you get pretty box art!"

If you live in a region that is not North America and would like to have some region-specific links added to this page, please PM me.



Last Words

In short, there are no restrictions on what we'll be watching in this group. I cannot ensure that everyone here is watching legally, and I consider this notice to be a more than reasonable step to make sure that anyone who wanders in here knows where the  resources are to do so.

Please report any posts in this thread that provides links to illegal streaming or download sites. You can do this by clicking the Report to Moderator link at the bottom-right corner of the post.

Thank you for taking the time to read this.

As such, we will be going ahead with Sayonara, Zetsubou-Sensei. At midnight tonight, I will post a header signifying that discussion has begun (and that spoilers will be imminent if you have not watched the episode).

No spoilers will be necessary for any of the posts in the discussion. This is because we have set a watch-by date, and any post that comes after the headers comes with the understanding that the poster and the reader have watched the same episode.

Episode 2 will have a tentative watch-by date of one week from the start of the discussion on episode 1. However, if the discussion is winding down and there is a general consensus, then the watch-by date can be moved up. Likewise, if the conversation looks like it has a ways to go, we can push back discussion for the second episode until the first discussion has concluded.

[Caeli]

Series » Sayonara, Zetsubou-Sensei
Episode 1 Discussion » Start!

[Chris Brady]

Before I forget, because I am Canadian, I am unable to watch most streaming site due to some law that no one wants to explain, so as much as I'd love to, I will have to back out of this club.  Have fun, everyone.

[Haibane]

I beleive you can still contribute, but you just can't say that you obtained your copy of the anime illegally, nor give links/instructions how to do so. Keeping silent on the subject isn't going to cause people to point any fingers, I'm certain of that.

But anyway, moving on...

Well. This is funny! I laughed a lot. So much so I couldn't read the subtitles. In fact I had to constant pause/start the episode in order to catch everything; the dialogue was fast and snappy with a joke in almost every line (it reminded me of Kyon's deadpan delivery at high speed from Haruhi Suzumiya) and half the jokes were written on the signs and chalkboards in the backgrounds. There were several in-jokes aimed at other anime, in particular a nod to Paranoia Agent in the closing titles (the woman holding the bent and blood-stained basball bat in the train car full of dead people). But yeah, so many jokes it hurt!

First impressions are favourable. I liked the simplistic art style and minimal animation, it seemed to fit the material somehow. The dialogue was fast, snappy and funny and so far as I can see its poking fun at modern society as much as anything else with the naming of stadia and public monuments after corporations (because they have the money and everybody has their price). Compare this to Fuura naming the sakura trees after anything cute or silly that she pleases (Pink Young CEO... chuckle) and naming her teacher 'Pink Supervisor' was a nice way to emphasize how stupid modern society has become with its greed for money... "One day even Mount Fuji will be renamed... Mount Shonen Magazine".

I can't decide if Fuura thinking that people hanging themselves means they're trying to make themselves taller is her being dumb and innocent or she's trying to distract Zetsubou-Sensei from having a second go. But whatever she's doing, its funny. She's a high-school girl so she can't possibly be that stupidly innocent so she must be being kind to him, making the conversation amusing rather than depressing. As the text there says "A man who can only see everything in a negative light" an "A girl who sees everything in a positive light" have met, something that wasn't supposed to happen.

I'll definitely watch this a couple more times to catch all th ebits I'm sure I missed first time.

[NightRabbit]

Ok, wow. I agree with Haibane, it can be pretty funny. Kitsu-san is my favorite student thus far because I have OCD tendencies and can totally relate. The title sequence kind of threw me out of it but then I was able to get back into it and roll with the title card thing. I can see the artistic choices for that. I like that there are so many non-sequiturs, like the part when the school counselor is moaning and its like "W-what the fuck is making her moan like that?" then you see she's rather enjoying cleaning her ears. The random factor hit and I laughed so fricking hard. Thank you Haibane for pointing out why that part of the end sequence looked kinda familiar. I guess it's kind of a blink and you miss it type thing. There was also a nod to Bleach with Fuura-san wearing a creepy white and black mask at the beginning of the end sequence. To be honest...most of the end sequence creeped me out. Is it me or did anyone else catch a reference to the Grudge in there too? *shivers and snuggles pillow remembering the movie* T__T

[Haibane]

I have only scraped the surface of anime like most fans have the time to do so I'm guessing there's several references in the ending title sequence to other dark anime, perhaps that's the point of all of the images; other anime that deal with death, depression and violence in some form. Perhaps others can comment who spot other in-jokes.

Yes, Night Rabbit I adored the school's lady counsellor who seemed to be the exact opposite of what a counsellor should be, being negative and nasty towards Zetsubou-Sensei saying it was "too early in the day to deal with this" when he came in and told her of his suicidal tendencies. :D Just the way the camera moved over her and the very simple style of her drawings still makes her come across as sensual, plus that fantastic earbud joke, so I'll be paying attention to her more! Again, a sexy, sensual school counsellor isn't something you'd really want. The anime is turning into a series of "humorous comments of opposites" so far I think.

[Tiaan]

Ok! I watched the first episode finally~

I really enjoyed it, some anime take a few episodes to draw me in and others just have me hooked from the first few minutes. This is one of the latter kind! I find it really refreshing when I see an anime that features adults more, especially in a high school setting it's pretty rare.

The students various 'disorders' make them very unique, which is refreshing. Maybe it's taking the kind of 'stock' classmates (you know the ones, the class president, the geeky boy, the tech-y girl etc) and pushing the moulds a bit to come up with these charicatures of the 'typical' school anime line up.

My favourite character so far has to be the school counselor; I laughed a lot at her and zetsubou's exchange. She reminds me of the English teacher from Azumanga Daiyo in some ways.

She's a high-school girl so she can't possibly be that stupidly innocent so she must be being kind to him

I am probably reading far more into it but... for me she seems more deluded than innocent and positive, as far as the hanging scene goes anyway. Damaged by her fathers attempts to take his life has made her unconsciously protect herself by refusing to see people hurt themselves... Also when she sees him she says "don't do it...", so she must've known what he was up to initially... but yea, probably just reading too much into what's just meant to be a funny joke!

Overall though, seems really great. The random stuff on the board made me laugh... 'if a student in Finland gets a cavity they have to stay back a year'... random!!! I live with a Finnish girl so it was even more funny and random for me I guess.

Anyway, great choice of series for this club!

[Chris Brady]

If I remember the club, each and every student is a 'mental problem' personified, and Sensei is the one who has to deal with it, and perhaps heal them in the process.  But that's what I remember from a blurb a long time ago.

And unfortunately, I am having no luck with legal methods of obtaining this anime that won't cost me money.  And I refuse to pirate.

[Tiaan]

I remember reading that too, but the 'mental problems' they chose seem to be the kind of things that might be bubbling under the surface of the typical set of anime classroom students, if pushed to the n'th degree.

One thing that was a bit annoying in this anime was the big, bald head that appears as a censor mark. I'd prefer to just see white, misty lines like usual... it was funny the first time but is really distracting now!

[DudelRok]

I am probably reading far more into it but... for me she seems more deluded than innocent and positive, as far as the hanging scene goes anyway. Damaged by her fathers attempts to take his life has made her unconsciously protect herself by refusing to see people hurt themselves... Also when she sees him she says "don't do it...", so she must've known what he was up to initially... but yea, probably just reading too much into what's just meant to be a funny joke!

I don't think you are reading too much into the joke at all. I think you are seeing exactly what's there. A girl who's willingly deluding herself about the world she lives in.

One thing that was a bit annoying in this anime was the big, bald head that appears as a censor mark. I'd prefer to just see white, misty lines like usual... it was funny the first time but is really distracting now!

This, too. But I believe it's going to be a running gag through the whole show.

I'm really not sure how to take things, myself.

Like, I found it interesting and funny but I didn't laugh. Might have smirked once or twice... and it certainly caught me off guard at first. Especially that opening little animation. That was... weird.

Then it's all spring time and skipping in the falling pink leaves when suddenly someone is hanging from a tree.

...okay, well I wasn't exactly expecting that. O.o


The ear bud joke was certainly interesting, as well. "What in the heck is going on? ... Oh, I see."



What I found really interesting were the intro splash screens. So much so, in fact, that I went and took some screen captures so I could read them.

Word to the Wise: Don't go into a ooooya and order soup with onions, no matter how much they trimmed the price.

[NightRabbit]

If I remember the club, each and every student is a 'mental problem' personified, and Sensei is the one who has to deal with it, and perhaps heal them in the process.  But that's what I remember from a blurb a long time ago.

And unfortunately, I am having no luck with legal methods of obtaining this anime that won't cost me money.  And I refuse to pirate.

I was actually able to find the first three episodes on YouTube and watched the first one on there. I don't know what I'm going to do about 4-however many are left, but at least it's a start. ^_^;;; I hope that helps.

[Chris Brady]

I was actually able to find the first three episodes on YouTube and watched the first one on there. I don't know what I'm going to do about 4-however many are left, but at least it's a start. ^_^;;; I hope that helps.

Tried that, but did you know Youtube can censor/block movies depending on region?  I didn't and that's what happened to me.

[NightRabbit]

Tried that, but did you know Youtube can censor/block movies depending on region?  I didn't and that's what happened to me.

Oh wow, I didn't know that...I thought they just did that with music. o.o

[Caeli]

My first impression of the anime is that I really enjoy the minimalistic art style and animation. The use of colors and empty space in  the panels (as an example, at 3:15 and 4:35, below) really give pop at the appropriate moments. Almost every background has moving animation, and there are very clean lines and vivid colors used for the backgrounds, which adds to the minimalistic feeling. I also thought that the use of shadows and darker colors to denote who was in the foreground and background was quite clever, and a very simple way to give depth to the scenes.

I also noticed that screentones were sometimes used in lieu of the standard cell shading - that, too, also added character to the style. The minimalism also does not preclude subtlety and complexity in the art style - almost every scene features a subtle lighting. For example, in the classrooms, you have the light shining in from the windows and from the hallway, even if the windows themselves are not in the panel.

I think I would have appreciated more variety in the character templates. All of the faces of the students looked the same, with only the hairstyle differing.

The sound effects, soundtrack, and voice acting were done superbly, in my opinion. All of the music corresponded well to the scenes (especially the more comic scenes in the classroom). Some of the sounds were actually pretty subtle, like at 12:31, when Fuura-chan shifts a little bit, and you hear her clothes rustle. Another great example of the use of sound effects was at 15:53, where they had the sound of the coins falling onto the ground with a black screen. Rather than animating the coins actually falling, they did the sound, then showed the coins on the podium.

The OP and ED were quirky but a lot of fun, and definitely fit in with the theme of the anime. The animation of the ED sequence was very beautiful - I saw lots of bits and pieces of traditional Japanese culture flitting around in the panels. That was on top of the old-style Japanese painting look that we could see in some panels.

I laughed the nod to the classic appearance of "birds flying through the sky" or "boats sailing through the water" in most anime OPs and EDs, occurring midway through the episode.

The political satire was wonderful! Haibane's example of even Mt. Fuji being named after a corporation with money was an excellent example. The number of jokes in the background and in the lines (such as on the chalkboards) were hilarious, though I didn't quite understand some of them. And then, of course, there was also Arai-sensei's comment of "How troublesome; what if he comes every day?" I'm pretty sure this is a reflection or a satirization of contemporary Japanese society, perhaps of how depression is generally viewed. I'm not 100% positive about that, though it does seem to make sense.

The puns in the character names were wonderful, especially that male student who is often overlooked. When I rewatched the episode a second time, I noticed that his face was rarely seen in its entirety; it was often covered by another person's face, and when Chiri-chan and Fuura-chan are talking about the school becoming a spa, his body was blacked out into a silhouette, while the two girls were in full color.

All in all, a very enjoyable first episode. I'm looking forward to seeing what happens with the students, the nurse, and with Zetsubou-sensei. :-)

[Haruki]

ACK!

I'll have to find this ep and give it a viewing this Saturday.  I've been so busy this week.  T_T  I shall edit this post with my comments at that time.

[DudelRok]

Speaking of beautiful (though also slightly disturbing) images.



I really loved this. Of course, you might not be able to fully appreciate it as a thumbnail, so do click to enlarge.


As for the name puns, I didn't really get those until these things were explained to me. (Of course I didn't know the meaning behind the names due to not knowing the language, so I am willing to cut myself some slack.)



Kagerou, so over looked he's half invisible. Rather, he's half not there.

[Caeli]

I don't think you are reading too much into the joke at all. I think you are seeing exactly what's there. A girl who's willingly deluding herself about the world she lives in.

Since I didn't comment a lot on the characters in my review, I wanted to comment on this.

I agree with DudelRok: I think she's being delusional about the reason why people hang themselves. Your views on why she might be like this (especially with her father and mother having made similar attempts earlier in her life) sound spot on to me, Tiaan.

[Haibane]

I watched the episode again tonight, that's the 3rd run through and saw fresh things, the art style seemed to jump out at me much more (I was focussing on the lines and signs first two times). The four or five images at the commercial break in the middle of the show are really curious, seeming to show our Mr Despair in an idealistic and positive setting - sun, sea, sand, a stork carrying a baby and him apparently cuddling a child on a boardwalk or pier. Strange.

I paid more attention to the students faces too this time and I have to say they are not that similar, there's definitely differences in eye shape and colour and eyebrow style, so its not like the girls are clones with just a different hairstyle. I was wondering of they were actually the same because they are just representational of different mental conditions but no, they are actually different.

In the closing credits I think I see a few seconds homage to Neon Genesis Evangelion (the moon, water droplets and the pale skinned girl lifting her hand and falling backwards in profile) all images from that TV series, and since that series was all about mental problems its apposite to be given snippets of the imagery from it here.

I noticed the music more this time as well and found that it set the mood well, even it was the jarring screamed male voice of the intro ;)

I was able to pause the intro this time and catch the 3 or 4 screens of quite dense text. I recommend you all try and read it, its pretty damn freaky! Funny too.

So far the episode to me seems to pretty much be about madness and oddness and crazy mental traits of both people and society. While laughing at these themes. I think I shall enjoy the rest of this series!

[Caeli]

I paid more attention to the students faces too this time and I have to say they are not that similar, there's definitely differences in eye shape and colour and eyebrow style, so its not like the girls are clones with just a different hairstyle. I was wondering of they were actually the same because they are just representational of different mental conditions but no, they are actually different.

I can see what you mean. I was looking more at body shape, though, and it appeared to me (at least, it did during the two times I watched) that most of the students had a general skinny look to them; there wasn't someone with a bit more chubbiness, either in the body or in the face, and none of the boys looked like they were built differently (though to be fair, none of the male students got more than a few seconds of screen time). This could just be an effect of it being a high school class, but I would have liked to see more variation regardless.

[Haibane]

Please watch again, quite a few of the boys were shown as chubby when sensei was going through the answers on the forms, and one girl was shown with a chubby face in one of the top-down views of the class sat at their desks all looking shocked.

Even so, with most of them similar I can see a reason for that too if the intent is to depict students not as individuals but as cogs in the giant sausage machine of the education system.

Also, adored the counsellor more this time round. Great lines like "Going to die now?" when the sensei gets up to leave and after he's gone; "What a pain. What if he comes every day?" And what the heck was all that about the baseball team logo and the bald coach? For some reason I found that scene extra surreal this time.

[Caeli]

I stand corrected, then; my only recollection is of the "group" images, and there isn't any major discernible differences between the students' bodies until you have panels of Zetsubou-sensei talking directly to them.

I think the baseball team logo and the bald coach was a pun on the logo (which bears a remarkable resemblance to the kanji for "hair")? Or was it why the joke was made in the first place that was more confusing?

[DudelRok]

I stand corrected, then; my only recollection is of the "group" images, and there isn't any major discernible differences between the students' bodies until you have panels of Zetsubou-sensei talking directly to them.

When a bunch of characters are lumped together on screen (especially if done so often), it's a common comic and animation trick to make these characters look as similar to one another as possible.

I think the baseball team logo and the bald coach was a pun on the logo (which bears a remarkable resemblance to the kanji for "hair")? Or was it why the joke was made in the first place that was more confusing?

Zetsubou did explain that he had an issue with the logo because it reminded him of hair, yet the guy with the baseball cap was bald. So the baseball cap was something of a replacement and that was somehow depressing enough to warrant suicide. O.o

[Haibane]

Thank you for that Dudelrok! Makes it even more bizarre!

[DudelRok]

It's become very apparent (very quickly) that anyone not knowing the language (like me) is going to miss some of the more subtle nudges and jokes.

Which also explains why a lot of it seemed way random and out of place to me, at least before things were explained. No real language understanding can leave one very "Uh... what?"

[Haibane]

No, its not that that wasn't explained in the copy I was watching (it was), I just still didn't get it.

[Caeli]

Ah. Well, I got it for the most part, but perhaps it's just a different kind of humor/joke. I didn't find it funny so much as just another one of Zetsubou-sensei's weird quirks/things that makes him feel depressed about the world.

[Tiaan]

With the name jokes, they're not something you're meant to get right away; even zetsubou-sensei's name gag was spelled out and explained visually and aurally. Not knowing the kanji characters for that didn't confuse the joke I don't think, although there would probably be more of a punchline if it was understood after seeing it written. For the other students, they are intricate wordplays, I don't think the Japanese audience get them all right away - only after getting to know the characters a bit (which might be why they are spelled out onscreen after the end credits, to prompt the joke - although I could be wrong! maybe they do get this stuff right away...)

With Kufaka Fuura anyway; in making an ironic reference to a classical German author in a manga aimed at young people it would be a bit much if they expected the audience to get it immediately.

With the baseball team joke, if it wasn't for the simple TL note explaining that 毛 means hair the whole section would've been lost on me however. Having some knowledge of Japanese kinda hurts the process really since I thought I saw 手 (te) which means hands/arms. The character for hair (on the head) is 髪 (kami) as well, so I was really confused! 毛 (ke) means hair in general (body hair etc) or fur, which does make it funnier in retrospect; since it's like the baseball team coach is wearing a furry toupee or something.

[Haibane]

Yes, some pretty obscure humour going on there, though the reactions of the sensei to having his name spelled horizontally and then the suggestion to leave a gap (which Fuura made the whole width of the chalkboard) again made the scene funny even if the subtelties of the wordplay were lost on me.

[Caeli]

Any objections to making the next watch-by date Thursday or Friday of this week? (please pick one)

[NightRabbit]

Ummm, I can do it by Friday night for sure. I have some stuff to take care of this week that will be cleared up by then. :)

[DudelRok]

Yeah, whatever.

No objections to either... but if I have to pick one, I'd say "Friday."

[Tiaan]

Friday is fine with me.

[Haibane]

The sooner the better, I think we are having too big a gap now as it is. Just because an episode watch date is put doesn't mean a participant must watch and comment on that date, people can take their time.

[Sure]

Gah, I'm late.

Anyway, the teaser was actually quite good. I actually rolled my eyes at the stereotypical anime opening... and then the rope pulling sound immediately shattered that. I've seen parodies of that sort of opening but that was... bold, I'd say. The art is beautiful and stylistic, though at times it was a bit distracting to the point where it subtracted for me.

The fanservice was kind of annoying, to be honest. I like attractive women as much as the next guy but it rarely served a purpose and even interrupted the story at times.

So I'm going to have a list of guesses at what the disorders are:

guesses

Zetsubo: Depression, isolation fears, some degree of suicidal
Chiri: Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder or Obsessive-Compulsive Personality Disorder
Kafuku: Controlling personality, possibly delusional
Balding/Ignored Boy: Neglect fears

Anyway, Friday is fine, especially if you can find a decent link for us to watch from again.

[Tiaan]

The fanservice was kind of annoying, to be honest. I like attractive women as much as the next guy but it rarely served a purpose and even interrupted the story at times.

From watching Bakuman and from what I understand about Manga writing, they have kind of 'targets' for fanservice... like, depending on the publication it's going out in the authors are told to include, for example 'three panty shots per chapter' or something. In anime I'm sure it's similar but the first episode of a series always has more... so, hopefully there will be less in the next episodes! I'd prefer to just see the panty shots though rather than the big bald guy's head (unless you are watching an uncensored version or something - if there is one - in which case there wouldn't be a big bald guys head covering up their pants <.<)

[Caeli]

I think that since we've had sufficient time for discussion for the first episode, then I'm going to go ahead and make Episode 2 fair game now.

Series » Sayonara, Zetsubou-Sensei
Episode 2 Discussion » Start!

[Sure]

From watching Bakuman and from what I understand about Manga writing, they have kind of 'targets' for fanservice... like, depending on the publication it's going out in the authors are told to include, for example 'three panty shots per chapter' or something. In anime I'm sure it's similar but the first episode of a series always has more... so, hopefully there will be less in the next episodes! I'd prefer to just see the panty shots though rather than the big bald guy's head (unless you are watching an uncensored version or something - if there is one - in which case there wouldn't be a big bald guys head covering up their pants <.<)

I suppose. I'm more forgiving of, say, two female characters having a discussion in a hot tub than random hot tub fantasy that will never be brought up again. As well as the bit about the suicide scene being full of panty shots... but yeah, hopefully you're right there.

Edit: Probably should have made the examples gender neutral... but you get the point, I hope.

[Haibane]

Sure - were you watching a censored version with the photo of the bald guy in glasses covering every naughty bit (and even some non-naughty bits like the school clock face)?

I assumed that was on the original video and wasn't censoring only in some alternative version, thus in the version I saw there was no fanservice at all. There could have been with the fantasy hot-tub scene (which was just another peek into Fuura's head after all), but there wasn't.

I'm just a bt confused here - you're saying it put you off but my impression was there was nothing to be put off by and the bald-head animation was, in itself, a joke.

[Sure]

Sure - were you watching a censored version with the photo of the bald guy in glasses covering every naughty bit (and even some non-naughty bits like the school clock face)?

I assumed that was on the original video and wasn't censoring only in some alternative version, thus in the version I saw there was no fanservice at all. There could have been with the fantasy hot-tub scene (which was just another peek into Fuura's head after all), but there wasn't.

I'm just a bt confused here - you're saying it put you off but my impression was there was nothing to be put off by and the bald-head animation was, in itself, a joke.

No idea what you're talking about. Bald guy with glasses on a clock face? There was no censorship other than the 'conveniently' placed wash towels or hair or whatever.

Anyway, I don't mean it in the literal sense that women nude offends my delicate sensibilities (which I totally have... honest! >.>) but in the sense that it seems like they interrupted the story to throw some mildly titillating pictures at us. And whether it's censored or not such scenes qualify as fanservice to me.

[Sure]

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide

Zetsubo: Depression, isolation fears, some degree of suicidal
Chiri: Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder or Obsessive-Compulsive Personality Disorder
Kafuku: Controlling personality, probably delusional, enabler for others
Balding/Ignored Boy: Neglect fears
Komori: Hikikomori (yes that's a real diagnosis in Japan)
Tsunetsuki: Stalker, Obsessive Personality, Dependent Personality

Less fanservice, less randomness (except for the part where Tsunetsuki runs away) raises this in my estimation. Still, I don't like the way they made light of hikimori. I don't mind that the premise of the show is playing mental illness for laughs, but with that specifically it was treated less like a problem and just something to shock her out of. At least in my opinion. Perhaps I'm being over-sensitive?

By the way, was it just me or did the gay kiss seem really, really dispassionate?

I do feel the stalker bit was the stronger half. What do you guys think?

[CmdrRenegade]

I want to start watching this, but what's will this 'censored' and non 'censored' talk I'm seeing? Can someone tell me what material is actually being censored without spoilers.  If there actually is a difference and it's not part of the original programming, it's fine as long as no story of value is lost (I doubt that).

[Caeli]

It doesn't matter which version you watch. I don't believe that the difference between the uncensored and censored portions (which is your average fanservice sort of scene) makes a difference to understanding the story. No footage is lost, it's only the way that body parts are covered that is different.

[Haibane]

The copy I'm watching has this 'joke' face added to various places, even in some circumstances where there is no fanservice such as over the school clock face.

I guess the censoring is the work of a broadcasting service? Perhaps some Japanese TV channel who aired it? I have honestly no idea but I actually quite like the bald guys head (so now, Sure, when anyone refers to "the bald guys head" you know what they're talking about!) since it adds obvious humour and therefore, there's no fanservice (you and I will need to disagree on that technical point, Sure ;) ).



As to episode two I found myself becoming a little bored by half way through. It was exactly the same format as episode one (even re-using some animations; never a good sign) and added some more students who were the embodiment of mental problems and didn't move us on much. The point was made in episode one, so this material I found repetitive, sadly.

Waiting for an actual plot development now.

[DudelRok]

Alright, I was not honestly looking forward to episode two... like, at all. The first episode I didn't find all that funny, and outside of some subtle things that required me to dismantle the anime itself (like take screen captures to read the intro) I... wasn't very amused.

(Spoilers!) So I go into Ep Two like this, "Well I GUESS I'll watch that this morning. Oh, look, he's trying to kill himself again. That's already old, and I'm bored of it. Oh look, here comes Miss Sparkle-Love-Happiness, complete with peach blossoms. And there she goes all "Don't Do It" and the guy almost dying and.... OH MY GOD! I swear if he says "What if I had died?" at the start of every episode, I'll kill him myself."

BUT THEN I got new splash screens! I've not read them yet, but the very fact it was a new "story" made me go "Oh, yay!" And I almost totally forgot about that horrible rehashing. I don't know what it was about knowing there was a new story-thing to read, or maybe if the actual episode was a lot better than the first but it made me honestly smile and laugh.

Ah, deep love... is there anything so strong? XD

The deal with Kiri Komori was a nice set up for later, and she was just too cute once she'd started all her blushing. I really did love the way they got her out. Miss Delusional-y Happy ends up scaring the poor thing right out of her room. Dolls, man.

Of course the "What if I had Died" thing made me eye roll a bit (twice in one episode... really?) but that not-so-subtle flirting in his twisted kind of way had an odd sweetness to it.


Not sure what to say about the stalker bit, other than "Ha!" That whole thing was good fun. The young girl's ability to "fall in and out of love" like that should prove to be a problem in the future... as well as the other girl thinking that "waking up in bed together" meant that the couple had to be married (regardless of circumstance).(/Spoilers)

As to episode two I Waiting for an actual plot development now.

I'd argue that you got a fair bit... but if you are looking for something a little more particular, that'll take until every single character has been properly introduced. I'd guess two more episodes.



And I end this little bit with one final note: The cake is a lie... because it's actually a shake.

[Haibane]

I watched it a second time. I think I'm falling in love with the school counsellor, Chie Arai. Her voice actress  Akiko Yajima, sounds so fantastically sexy! I adore her voice.

[Caeli]

If there are no objections, next watch-by date will be Monday; discussions for Ep. 3 can start on Tuesday.

[NightRabbit]

Unfortunately, I will have to back out from this series as much as I love it.
The episodes I found, I can't find them anymore on YouTube. :(
Hopefully a series comes up after this one that streaming sites have/allow for where I live.
I thoroughly enjoyed the discussions so far though and what I've seen of the series.

[DudelRok]

If there are no objections, next watch-by date will be Monday; discussions for Ep. 3 can start on Tuesday.

Tuesday, Wednesday, yesterday... whatever.

[Mister Grimm]

Most of the censoring in Sayonara, Zetsubou-Sensei is intentional on behalf of the guy who created it, but some was removed on the DVD version. Still a brilliant black humor series, despite that fact, and one of my favorites. Besides, it's what... middle schoolers? Or underage students that are being censored, right?

[Mister Grimm]

Ah- Er. Disregard that last part. I had failed to see the bottom of the very first post. > A>;
Sorry about that.

I'm pretty sure Amazon has the 1.99$ deal per episode as well, but maybe not considering the age of the series.

Also, if it hasn't been noted before, Hulu is only available for North American and Japan, sadly. >:

[NightRabbit]

@Ryder: It's perfectly fine. ^_^ There is in fact a way I can watch with you guys.

[Caeli]

Blargh. Sorry I haven't posted my episode reviews yet; I've been tired with work + trying to strike a deal with my muse.

Series » Sayonara, Zetsubou-Sensei
Episode 3 Discussion » Start!

Can still discuss episode 2, but fair warning that there may be spoilers if you haven't watched Ep. 3 yet.

[DudelRok]

Haven't watched the EP yet... but I'm doing what I usually do, which is wait for other comments to give me an idea of what I'm wondering into. (It makes it more fun for me, somehow.)


...well that was gonna be my post but then I figured "Eh, I'll watch it!"

Weird. O.o

I... I don't know. It was a bit more random than usual, and offered up some interesting new characters. (I think we're about done with the introductions, too.)

Does every girl in that school fall for "Mr. Despair?" XD



LAWSUIT!

[Haibane]

I enjoyed this episode much more than the second mostly because it was completely whacky and deranged and the humour was far tighter and sharper. Its all still more of the same but I found myself laughing a lot more. I also love those random nonsensical stories they put in the opening credits, and the fantastic funny random signs on the chalkboard and around the classroom and school.

Its a nice way to work the theme of various forms of madness so thoroughly into the show itself, making the entire thing mad.

[DudelRok]

We should be getting into the meat of the show soon. I'm pretty sure that 3 Episodes of introductions is more than enough. O.o

[Caeli]

Series » Sayonara, Zetsubou-Sensei
Episode 4 Discussion » Start!

[DudelRok]

O.o

I'd blame myself for not watching EP4 yet... but everyone done and vanished.

[Haibane]

I was hoping for some comments before I commented. I'll watch it again today and post, but the small number of people contributing makes this hard to continue with. :(

[Haibane]

Sadly, this seems to have completely died with nowhere near enough people keeping up with the series to make the discussions fun.

Perhaps it was a bad choice of series?

Would people be interested in choosing another?

[DudelRok]

Heh, I kept telling myself "Maybe I should watch Ep 4 of that one show-thing and post in the thread." Only to further tell myself, "But no one else is bothering!"


I don't have a problem with the show, itself. I just... the reason to watch it, for me, was to talk to people about it and such. :\ Otherwise it's just kind of hooky-silly nonsense that gets a little old.

[Haibane]

Oh, I thought it was a very good show and was unlike any other I'd seen. By the 3rd similar episode the initial cleverness was wearing off but I would still be happy discussing it and watching it to see where it goes. There have been two more seasons of it so I understand so surely the story must develop somewhere!

However without anyone else watching it and reporting back to discuss it, we are stuck.

[DudelRok]

...just more character introductions.



Oh, and I watched it just now. XD


I mean, it's amusing but I still feel like there's something missing?