Exalted: Brotherhood of the Dragons

[ReijiTabibito]

Exalted: Brotherhood of the Dragons

In this, the volatile Second Age of Creation, forces innumerable are at work.  The high-handed and overbearing tactics of the Realm, the subtle machinations of the Sidereal caste, the economic power of the Guild, and the Oblivion-seeking servants of the Neverborn are just a few.

To top it all off, the recent return of the Solar and Lunar Exalted has caused quite a stir amongst the chosen of Creation’s Gods – and the disappearance of the Scarlet Empress, the force holding together the Realm, have made this a time of change.  A time of heroes.  A time of villains.

A time for the birth of legends, great and small.


***********************************************

This is an Exalted campaign, focusing on one particular group of Exalts – the Terrestrial Exalted of the city-state of Lookshy, the former Seventh Legion of the Shogunate.  The setup goes as follows:

Character Types: Terrestrial Exalts only.  However, you have the option of playing as a Lookshy Terrestrial, or as a Terrestrial defecting to Lookshy from the Realm.  Character Creation guidelines will be detailed below.

Lookshy Terrestrials: As per standard creation within the Dragon-Blooded Manual of Exalted Power.

Realm Defectors: Ability dots and Charms must be selected as a Dynast.  Background as from Lookshy, with the exception of the Breeding background, which is treated as Dynastic for purpose of bonus points.

Merits & Flaws from Scroll of Heroes are welcome, with a limit of either 15 points gained from Flaws, or 4 Flaws total (Merits do not suffer either limit).

Families: you may play one of the Eleven Houses (if you are a Dynast defector), or one of the five Gentes (if you’re from Lookshy), or you may create your own minor family.

Custom Artifacts & Hearthstones are welcome, but must be first approved by the GM.

Alterations from standard Exalted.

First, I am handing out free levels of Breeding for all players, up to level 4.  You can take less, but Breeding 4 is the maximum I will hand out – anything higher would require bonus point expenditure.

Essence Formula Changes:
Personal Essence formula (Essence+Willpower+Breeding) remains the same.  There is, however, a new Peripheral Essence formula, which goes as follows:

[Essence*4] + Willpower + Breeding + [Sum of all Virtues]

Combo Changes:
Normally, developing combos is expensive, and has little benefit.  I’ve changed the rules for developing combos to the following.

XP Cost of Combos:  Dependent on either the Ability or Essence minimum of the Charm used, whichever is higher.  Essence/Ability 1 to 3: 1 XP.  4 or 5: 2 XP.  Example:  A Charm combo consisting of the First Melee Excellency (requires Melee 1, Essence 1) and the Melee Charm Dragon-Graced Weapon (requires Melee 2, Essence 2) would cost 2 XP to develop.

Essence cost of Combos:  The Essence cost of a combo has been reduced.  It is now the combined motes of Essence needed to fuel the combo, divided by 2.  So, for the Combo example above, the combo cost would be either ranging from 1 mote (1 mote used in Excellency, 1 mote for Dragon-Graced Weapon, divided by 2) to 3 motes (5 motes Excellency, 1 mote Dragon-Graced Weapon, divide by 2).

Willpower cost of Combos: Typically, activating a combo costs 1 Willpower, always.  I am changing the conditions to when a Willpower must be spent to activate a Combo.  Combos only need a Willpower for activation whenever the Combo in question costs 4 or more XP to make.

PM me, or post here if you’re interested.  See you out there!

[ultlifeform]

I'm in! Character's good to go. Soon as I think up a motivation... Air aspected... I throw stuff...

[Chimerelf]

In!

I've already made a Wood Aspect archer.

Come on, let's get a bunch of players!  :-)

[Pumpkin Seeds]

Mind if I throw my hat into the ring?

[Hikari]

I'd like to play.  I could throw together an Air or Fire aspect depending on what other people want to play.

[ReijiTabibito]

You're all welcome, of course!  Feel free to play whatever you like.

[Pumpkin Seeds]

Would Earth be ok?  Thinking like an earth aspect, sergeant type or something similiar.

[ReijiTabibito]

Absolutely Earth is okay!  I don't think we have an Earth yet, so you'd be the first!

[Pumpkin Seeds]

Yay! :: goes to get her shield::

[Katina Tarask]

Um... I have the Exalted core books, but I've never played it.  1) Is that enough material to join in, or am I missing some essential supplement?  2) Is it alright for a total Exalted newbie to join in?  I may need someone to hold my hand through this.  (A volunteer over IMs would be appreciated.)

[ReijiTabibito]

Newbies are completely fine.  The only books you absolutely need to have are the following:

1. Exalted Core Rulebook
2. Manual of Exalted Power: Dragon-Blooded

The following books are not essential, but recommended.

1. Scroll of Heroes
2. Scrolls of Esoteric Wisdom - Scroll of the Monk
3. Books of Sorcery, Volume 1 - Wonders of the Lost Age
4. Books of Sorcery, Volume 2 - Oadenol's Codex

And these are just for info and such.

1. Compass of Terrestrial Directions, Volume 1 - The Scavenger Lands
2. Compass of Terrestrial Directions, Volume 3 - The East

If you have AIM, PM me, and I can help you through the character creation process.

[ReijiTabibito]

I'll try and answer your questions as best I can.

1.  I have no idea what you mean - if you mean sexually, this would probably go in the Light: Exotic Small Groups portion of E - as I see it, this is Exalted, with sex at the discretion of the players, and not mandated by myself.

2.  A bit of travel would be needed within this game.  In my head, Lookshy would serve, more or less, as one of the character's bases of operations (along with the PC manses), and certainly the largest.  The game is not Lookshy-centric, but it is eastern-centric - meaning you wouldn't have to travel across half of Creation to get where you need to go, but if you wanted to do your own thing, you could.

3.  Not at all, if you can find some way to work in Lookshy from behind the scenes, I'm all for it - it'd give me a chance to work with a few more NPCs and explore a couple potential plot lines in Lookshy.

4.  That depends on you.  If you stay in Lookshy the whole game, the odds would be close to nil.  If you go out and travel, however, your odds increase - and the more you travel, the more chance you have of finding one.  So, on a scale of 1-10, with 1 being 'no chance' and 10 being 'absolutely', I'd rate it as such.  Stay in Lookshy the whole time: 2.  Go out and travel: 4-6 (particularly if you regularly visit the area around Nexus and Great Forks).

Couple of quick notes from me.

We currently have an Air, a Wood, and two Earth Aspects.  Meaning we're lacking Fire and Water Aspects, and I would like to have a full brotherhood (I can send a couple NPCs with the party to fill in the gaps, but I'd prefer to keep that to a minimum).

Second, I want to hear from you guys.  Where would you like to go?  What would you like to do?  I have my own ideas for an overarching plot line, but games need subplots too - and you guys are the best people I can think to ask.  PM me, or jump on AIM to talk.

All for now. 

[ReijiTabibito]

Right.  Forgot to clarify that.  Reflexive Charms (such as the three general Excellencies) do not need to be included in a combo in order to be used alongside another.  However, if one wants to make a Combo including a Reflexive Charm, then the Essence mote discount would apply.

Said another way:

Reflexive Charms do not need a Combo to be activated with other Charms on a given action.

Reflexive Charms, if in a Combo, would be subject to the Essence discount.

Hope that makes sense.

I've found the Wood-Aspect anima banner - it's in the Dragon-Blood Book.  I think that's everything, for now.

[ReijiTabibito]

No, there is no limit.  I already have one character with Manse 5, though Artifact 5 may or may not be prohibitively expensive in terms of attunement costs.

And my thought was that the group met each other for an assignment...though I could certainly see some of the group at least knowing OF some of the other PCs.

[Terian]

Yeah, I've got a concept for this (Nod Nod), here's hoping it all works out then.

Loose rundown, Karal Amaya, Fire Aspected young soldier and the daughter of a Big Damn Hero of a recent affair.  Strong of blood, exceedingly idealistic, and one of the top young soldiers of her generation in close combat and skirmishing techniques.  It's little wonder she's got some manner of attention from the higher ups, despite still being a tiny bit wet behind the ears.

[ReijiTabibito]

This would actually work out pretty well.  Amaya (and her concept) would be most welcome in the game.  PM me, or more preferably, jump on AIM (if you've got it) and talk to me, so that we can work things out if you want.

[Katina Tarask]

I vote against the tight-knit group.  My character is going to be rather brusque, and folks being used to her would just be no fun.

[The Great Triangle]

Dynastics are allowed, but can we play defecting immaculate monks?  (possibly training in some forbidden celestial martial art after leaving the immaculate order because of the corruption of the realm)  I'm thinking of playing a water caste celestial martial artist with immaculate enlightenment charms.

As for styles, can I play an immaculate training in Violet Bier of Sorrows?  (assuming I take mentor 4 or 5 to represent a bronze faction toady training my character) 

And if not Violet Bier (which, I must remind you, is the most brokentastic of all martial arts), how about Tiger Style?   

[ReijiTabibito]

Absolutely Ex-Immaculates are allowed.  I'm in talks with another player right now about being an Ex-Immaculate.

And I wouldn't mind you learning Violet Bier of Sorrows (and you wouldn't necessarily need a Bronze faction mentor, you could take a Gold or Independent faction), but in my head, a few things are quite clear.

Thing 1: All Immaculates start out learning one of the Immaculate styles (typically the one associated with their aspect), and they get huge penalties for trying to learn Martial Arts styles that aren't their Immaculate one until said Immaculate style is completed.

Thing 2: I don't know if you read the Sidereal book, but although Violet Bier of Sorrows can *theoretically* be taught to Immaculates (which is even shown in one of the inter-chapter comics), it is an *enormous* offense to teach it to non-Sidereals, and Gods of less than Essence 4 in the Bureau of Destiny...so I personally think that one would be out.  Tiger Style would be good, though.

[The Great Triangle]

Yup, I'm quite aware what an offense teaching the style is, hence why I'd put so many dots into mentor to cover being the secret weapon of a possibly slightly deranged sidereal.   (if neccesary, I could also pump ally and such, of course)

Although if you're requiring celestial martial artist characters to start with an immaculate style, then I'll likely play a different concept  (since by the rules, it's actually impossible to switch what celestial martial art you're learning before mastering it.)


Would an captain or commodore in the Lookshy Navy be an appropriate character concept for this game?  On a related note, could I take the legendary artifact background to take command of a Kireeki class assault skyreme?  (almost certainly with only a partial complement of weapons)

I'd also be interested in playing a sorcerer interested in industrializing Lookshy using imported Omen Weather Engines.  (probably Wood caste)

[ReijiTabibito]

RE: The Sidereal Sifu - I see.  Well, we can discuss that as we go.  And if you really want to, you could take that as a Dark Secret - the offense of learning the style, should the secret come out, would target you and your teacher, if not for death, then for horrible things.

RE: Celestial Martial Artist Characters - well, it's not that I require it, it's that it's what I though was the norm.  If it's not, then I don't have a problem with you not starting with an Immaculate style (though I still think Tiger Style would be more reasonable than Violet Bier, but we could discuss that)

RE: Captain/Commodore - most certainly.  And there's a Legendary Artifact Background?  Where is it?  And why have I not heard of it...

[The Great Triangle]

Actually, the legendary artifact background is an old 1E merit that I accidentally thought was included in scroll of heroes!  Silly me! 

Tiger Style martial artist, particularly with Sidereal (or possibly lunar) sifu appeals to me, although I also really like the idea of playing a Sorcerer.  Is anyone talking about playing a sorcerer yet?  And if I play a sorcerer, can I begin with a silver key to open portals to Malfeas and Malfean artifacts?  (I'm interested in playing a character who does things like set up automated prayer/ritual/sacrifice factories to the gods to gain their favor, and tries to put up Neomah towers all over Lookshy to service the needs of the Seventh Legion)

[ReijiTabibito]

RE: Legendary Artifact - Oh.

RE: Sorcerer - no one has explicitly stated YET that they're going to play one...and what rating is a Silver key, exactly?  And I'm not sure if Lookshy would appreciate a bunch of demons (even if they are only First Circle) being summoned to help with their needs and such.

RE: Tiger Style Martial Artist - I am most in favor of this idea, because I'm trying to get one of each Elemental Aspect into this game without relying on NPCs to fill the gap.  To put it another way, as long as I can have 1 Water Aspect (Martial Artist or no, though Water makes most sense for that Aspect), I'm not picky about what people play.

RE: Kireeki Class Skyreme - is this in Wonders of the Lost Age?  I might give it to the party after a number of stories (probably near the end of the campaign, though).

[The Great Triangle]

Demon summoning can probably be kept to a managable level, though owning an infernally aspected manse might be able to excuse a bit more excess when it comes to indulging some of the darker paths of sorcery.  (as might being from the realm, since Realm sorcerers are famous for being surrounded by a retinue of demons)

Silver Keys are a two to four dot relic; they open a portal to hell by inserting them into a door and turning the key, and tend to be mass produced in Malfeas to lure mortals to their doom.  The Ebon Dragon likes to give them out as party favors.  A two dot key only works in a particular city or opens into Cecylene, a three dot key only works when a specific condition is met, like it being night or the door bearing the name of a yozi, and a four dot key works anywhere, any time.  Keys to the Infernal gates don't provide passage back from Malfeas to creation, though escape from hell can be reasonably easy to manage for a sufficiently prepared individual, particularly with Infernal Prayer Strips.  (for a lookshyan, Chalcanth and Vitriol made from summoned demons would likely be the best way of buying one's way through an out of hell)

The main things on a sorcerer character's shopping list from the Infernal realms:

-Collapsable Palanquins (Basically folding boats, but with the concept applied to a wide variety of demon powered vehicles)
-Infernal Essence Taps (with the help of a Silver Key, these devices can provide a short term supply of energy for hearthstone powered devices, and even allow very formidable mounted emplacements if one manages to fill out the forms to have a stable open portal to Malfeas)
-Infernal Prayer Strips  (these things are expensive in many ways, but they enable a limited replication of solar circle sorcery)
-Omen Weather Engines (High efficiency engines powered by the interplay between a bound demon and creation itself.  They drip blood and frogs everywhere, but are otherwise perpetual motion machines)

As for a plausable explanation for my character's eccentricities, she could be trying to arrange for hellstriders to be used by the Lookshy military.  (they did go and take the Lover's hellstrider after all, so if the Legion could get past their disgust, and develop efficient abassaic binding procedures to keep the machines from going berserk, they could quickly become one of the most militarily powerful factions in creation)

[ReijiTabibito]

This all sounds fairly good and such...if it weren't for the fact that the words 'demons' and 'Malfeas' and 'Ebon Dragon' and 'Yozis' provoke much the same response in me as it did in Lookshy - creepiness and disgust.  I realize that may just be my OWoD experience leeching through, where Malfeas was considered the realm of all the things that wanted to reduce the world to nothingness, but it still creeps me out a little.

One question to ask you, though: are you still willing to play either of your Water-Aspected ideas (the Lookshy captain or Ex-Immaculate learning Tiger Style)?  I'm not going to insist upon them heavily, especially if I can get the other player to go the Ex-Immaculate route, but I would like to have some assurance.

[The Great Triangle]

I'm perfectly willing to play the tiger warrior martial artist concept.  :-)

And if I play the hell-sorcerer, she'll also be water aspected.  Basically, she was born into house Ragara, and spent two years at the Spiral Academy before transfering to the Heptagram, upon realizing the financial gains that could be made with clever application of Sorcery.  At the Heptagram, she excelled in Infernalism and chose to sacrifice her firstborn child to gain the gift of sorcery.  Shortly thereafter, she began her graduate work and made several trips to Malfeas, before being assigned her Imperial obligation to hunt down and attack the Lintha.  The deliberative hoped that seeing the horror of demon half breeds would cut short her adventurism in hell.  It didn't work.  She went more and more insane, assembling a collection of infernal artifacts before dissapearing in the midst of a battle with the Lintha.  She then vanished for several months, before turning up again on a brass bout crewed by demons and sailing into Lookshy.  She pledged eternal loyalty and fealty to Lookshy in exchange for unlimited access to a particularly inauspicious lighthouse in the midst of a shadowland.  Since then, she's converted the lighthouse into a manse of some considerable power, and somehow cleaned up the shadowland as well. 

[ReijiTabibito]

Okay...so both concepts are Water Aspect.  That's good, then.  And I admit, the hell-sorcerer's history is very intriguing, but by dint of who she is, she'd draw the attentions of both Lookshy and the Realm defectors - the Lookshyans because she's from the Relam, and the defectors because she's freaking *scary*.  Plus, she'd need a lot of Willpower.

It's not that I'm opposed to the idea...it's that I find the Tiger warrior idea much less...stressful to try and slip into the group, that's all.

[The Great Triangle]

The character would be willing to wear a slave collar, which could make the group dynamic easier (and another player could buy my character's slave collar as an artifact, thereby providing some goup hooks)  A slave collar, by the way, is a four dot artifact from wonders of the lost age that completely cancels the wearer's ability to disobey the commands of the exalt who attunes the artifact.  A character wearing a slave collar also cannot treat any order as an unacceptable order, though vague and confusing commands can be interpreted.  That could ease a certain amount of the tension.

The implicit idea is that the character has some kind of agenda in coming all the way across creation to Lookshy,  but around the time she arrived she wiped a decent chunk of her own memories with sorcery and came to the authorities in Lookshy holding a slave collar in one hand and an infernal prayer strip in the other. 

A slave collar does cost 8 motes to attune though, although the responsibility could easily fall to an enlightened essence mortal NPC.  If I did go this route though, would I have to pay for the slave collar as part of my character's starting equipment?

[ReijiTabibito]

Well...I can leave the attunement thing to an NPC, I suppose...though it would be difficult if said NPC remained in Lookshy when you went traveling.  I could probably make up a Terrestrial NPC to be the attuned for that one - I was planning on having one or two in the group anyways.  And I'm not sure if you would have to pay for it...I'm pretty sure Lookshy itself could come up with one on their own.

[The Great Triangle]

The other functions of a slave collar are that for one mote, the attuned user can look through the senses of the slave at any distance, and for two motes, the attuned user can send a telepathic message to the slave (which the slave must, of course, obey)  This provides a pretty good insurance policy even if the master isn't physically present, since the slave can be given long term orders like "obey all orders my representative gives you, and cast no spells without permission" at the start of the day.  Successfully removing a slave collar without permission of its master deals 16 unsoakable levels of aggravated damage, so even a lunar kind of has to live with it.

Now of course, my character's real agenda is a plot hook that you can ruthlessly exploit, since my character is liable to have left the gems containing her memories scattered in places that she's likely to find.  Some likely possibilities for what she's doing include: Trying to get out of a deal with the devil; Trying to counter the influence of the deathlords, possibly for the yozis, who with the exception of the Ebon Dragon very much want to keep Creation from getting sucked into Oblivion; an attempt to gain political power in Lookshy; and pure sensual relish of being a slave to terrestrials to prepare her to find some way of keeping her free will and sanity when she sells her soul to hell for power. 

[Katina Tarask]

I'm for anything that keeps the number of NPCs latched onto the party to an absolute minimum (preferably zero), whether that means giving another PC the collar or handing a distant NPC the remote control.

[Chimerelf]

I agree.  Demon summoners would be watched with a keen eye and a readied bow.  No offense, but I think a less... erm... "unique" character concept might work best.  At least amongst the players I've talked to.

I'm all for secrets and unique powers, but I feel most of them should be earned through play.  If you can survive the hurdles the GM throws at you, then by all means, get the powers.  I just don't like the idea of a character starting with them.

[Katina Tarask]

Whereas I'm all for a character starting out with them, rather than waiting for the game to sputter out and die before decreeing the interesting stuff justified at last.

[ReijiTabibito]

Well, I've talked to some of the players, and at least 3 players, and 1 GM (myself), don't feel comfortable with this concept.  I can't speak for the players, but I'm uncomfortable because

1: Lookshy doesn't exactly look well on demon sorcerers,

2: It's very hard to integrate the concept into the group.

[The Great Triangle]

Alright...  I really like the concept, but if people REALLY don't want me to use it.  I do think you're overestimating how dangerous demons are and how uncommon they are in the setting though.  My character specifically avoids summoning demons with motivations towards harming creation, and has over a dozen thamaturgical procedures for containing and banishing demons who do the wrong thing.  I've also offered concrete suggestions for integrating my character into the group, and at least one player seems to want to run with the concept.

However, I also don't want to spoil everyone's fun!  :-)

(I may be overreacting to the rules changes in combos making terrestrial sorcerers even weaker than they already are though, and they started insanely weak anyway, hardly better than mortal sorcerers.  Actually worse, in some cases, for their harder time getting access to thamuturgy.)

[The Great Triangle]

Upon further discussion, I've decided to hand my previous character concept over to the ST as a villain.  Now I'm going to be playing a loyal and dedicated Lookshy soldier who found a source of first age celestial martial arts. 

Hopefully that will be considerably less objectionable!

(although if people start complaining about how celestial martial arts are forbidden and dangerous, I'm totally quitting.  ;) )

[Chimerelf]

No complaints about Celestial Martial Arts, provided they aren't Sidereal styles, which I don't think we have to worry about since you don't have Essence 4 that's required to start most styles.

And as for the comment about games drying up, that's the sign of a poor DM and powergaming players.  If characters are allowed to explore their own interests and develop connections and powers accordingly, things will be fine.  Having been in one of ReijTabibito's games before, I can promise you he maintains a good balance between fun powers and playability.

[The Great Triangle]

My character's plans consist of Tiger Style, followed by the Art of Relentless Persuasion, followed by Solar or Lunar hero style if the campaign somehow goes on that long.  In the extremely unlikely event I end up with three complete celestial martial arts, my character will likely be ready to start playing around with those funky dragon blood elder charms. 

[Katina Tarask]

And as for the comment about games drying up, that's the sign of a poor DM and powergaming players.  If characters are allowed to explore their own interests and develop connections and powers accordingly, things will be fine.  Having been in one of ReijTabibito's games before, I can promise you he maintains a good balance between fun powers and playability.

What does powergaming have to do with games drying up?  I've seen powergamers blamed for a lot of stuff for little reason, and this certainly makes the list.

A lot of games dry up, just as a matter of course.  Real life issues come up, folks don't click, or things just don't strike too many folks' fancy.  It is the way of things.

[The Great Triangle]

The cutting off of the power level is one of the best things about Dragon Blooded Exalted campaigns.  It's why I'm signing on to play a Lookshy game even though I hate Lookshy with a fiery burning passion.  *grins*   

Now of course, this is completely unrelated to why games fail, but I'll talk a little about what the celestial game looks like, and how it impacts the dragon blooded game.


When you're playing with Celestial Exalted, there's pretty much one optimal build, often referred to as "Jon Chung's Silver Hammer"  You play a character with a grand goremaul, an extra action charm, and a perfect defense.  The grand goremaul is a weapon so powerful it usually kills in one hit, but is restricted to one attack per action.  The extra action charm enables you to spam this thing and be sure it gets through, while the perfect defense goes into a combo with the extra action charm to perfect away any attack that comes at the hammermonkey. 

When taken to it's inevitable conclusion, large numbers of characters playing with silver hammer builds get into a situation where if you don't pop a combo that includes a perfect defense while fighting celestial exalted (or any cutter with a grand goremaul and an extra action charm really), you die.  Taken a bit further than that, this leads to what people call "Paranoia Exalted" where characters never ever use a charm that isn't combo OK in combat, and die if they can't confirm enough +2 stunts.  If paranoia exalted goes further, characters begin to fear their own shadows, and start including the other tiers of a paranoia defense; a "flurry breaker" and a "suprise negator."  A flurry breaker is a charm that allows a character to move away from an attacker as a counterattack, which limits the number of times the character can be attacked, and helps shut down Jon Chung's silver hammer, hopefully saving many motes on defense.  A suprise negator, meanwhile, enables a character to avoid being hit by a suprise attack, and losing their DV and ability to perfect the attack.  When the three elements of flurry breaker, suprise negator, and perfect defense are combined into one combo, it becomes a three tier "Paranoia Combo."  A player playing paranoia exalted will include these three charms in all of his combos, which he will have for every charm he intends to use in a situation he feels is even slightly dangerous.


Now, for dragon blooded,  an imperfect version of Jon Chung's Silver hammer can be created by taking the charm "Ringing Anvil Onslaught" and weilding a grand goremaul.  Since Dragon Bloods don't have easy access to perfect defenses, this build can be extremely deadly.  With Earth Dragon Form and perfected kata bracers, such a character can essentially kill any dragon blood in creation without perfect defenses comboed to flurry breakers with impunity, provided she wins the join battle roll. 

Dragon Blooded have access to an imperfect flurry breaker in hopping firecracker evasion, though successfully using it relies on your opponent not having speed enhancing charms active and successfully dodging the first strike.  This, of course, is much much easier if your GM is generous, lenient with, or ignorant of the DV cap rule.  (about which I will say nothing more)  They also have access to an almost useless suprise negator in all encompassing earth sense, and a much better but expensive one in Tiger and Bear Awareness.  Taken together with a Dragon Blood's chunky perfect defense, a Dragon Blood can put together a chunky three tier paranoia combo at about 60-90xp.  Because of the mass resource drain, I beleive one conclusion is more or less inevitable:

Optimization in a Dragon Blooded Game: Just Say No.

(also, GM's, say no to any player who hands you a character with a large piercing weapon and an extra action charm.  That way lies madness.)

[ultlifeform]

*sigh* this is exactly why I never play characters who focus on combat... what's the point if everybody has the same crap and can do all the same things... either whoever wins initiative wins the battle, or nobody wins... boring...

[The Great Triangle]

Rate limit removal is an effective tactic against Lunars, Spirits, and Dragon Blooded, but fairly useless against Solars and somewhat weak against Sidereals, since pretty much every Solar and his mother has Fivefold Bulwark stance, which completely negates this strategy, and Sidereals have a version of Shadow Over Water, which enables them to cheaply cancel out onslaught penalties.  You also have to pump your speed to simply criminal levels to be effective, since removing the rate cap doesn't do anything to help you against flurry breakers.  (of course, the weakness of Lunars to strategies like this is one of the major reasons for the success of the Wyld Hunt)

If you're not a celestial, you'll also be incredibly screwed if you use the tactic and don't kill everything threatening you, since you'll end up with such a low DV that you'll have to perfect everything which comes your way, which will end up draining your essence so much you'll end up dead.  (assuming you even had a perfect in the first place)  Solar Analogues get around this with Fivefold Bulwark stance, and Lunars have their own ways of negating this disadvantage, but all others are fairly screwed.  Also, unless you've got some way of lowering flurry penalties, such as fire dragon style or certain Infernal charms, (which usually take you out of the realm of instakill weapons) you'll end up unable to penatrate the DV of any seriously combat ready opponent very very quickly, simply from how harsh flurry penalties are.  (though if you're using Blade of the Battle Maiden alongside maxed out combat stats, you might just be able to pull off 7-8 attacks while still having a decent dice pool on each attack)

*sigh* this is exactly why I never play characters who focus on combat... what's the point if everybody has the same crap and can do all the same things... either whoever wins initiative wins the battle, or nobody wins... boring...

The problem isn't actually that Exalted combat is boring, it's just that the core book makes the high end artifact weapons too powerful compared to armor in general.  (It's even worse with Warstriders)  There are a number of tricks you can do to close this gap, but generally the best way is just to remove the ability of charms to negate the penalties of such weapons (low rate) which requires a house rule.  Of course, house ruling perfect defenses to weaken them also makes combat somewhat more interesting, but compensating for the gains defense makes.  I like to rule that any given perfect defense can be used only once per tick, thus forcing characters to develop multiple perfect defenses and try and determine with every particularly deadly blow whether its worth it to risk the perfect defense.  As a final concession to defense, when GMing I allow defensive use of excellencies during step 6 of attack resolution, since they're usually an expensive defense yet they give players a sense of control without having to go out and buy the third dodge excellency. 

Ultimately however, it's simply a part of Exalted that from about essence 5 on, if a celestial exalted wants to make someone dead, no matter who they are, unless they have a full defensive suite operational, they're going to die.  I once played in a high essence game where Chejop Kejack himself got his arms and legs hacked off by an Infernal Exalt expending over 100 motes in a single flurry when Kejack stopped to activate a form type charm.  (Quicksilver Hand of Dreams Form can be a pretty good charm.  Not so good if your opponent is outside fate and beating you to death with creation's last Protoshinmaic Vortex.)

If the GM is interested, I've also written up alternate rules for the Deathlords that make them considerably more reasonable opponents to fight, rather than being so bloody overpowered as to pretty much leave it a complete mystery as to why they haven't gone and personally wrecked creation.

[ultlifeform]

there is such a fine line between stupid choices and fun choices... so very fine of a line... I consider it my duty to make that line as small as possible... ^_^

[The Great Triangle]

You know, it sort of reminds me of the idea of a quadrapeligic solar permanently bolted into a warstrider, heavy combat airship, or even better, (in a first age game) a Directional Titan.  Why worry that your body is useless when you've got anywhere from a 40 foot long to 5 mile long steel and magical metal replacement body? 

(A quadrapeligic infernal permanently grafted onto his hellstrider seems like an actually plausable scenario... at least for she who lives in her name and possibly the Ebon Dragon.  Which reminds me that Mind Hand Manipulation is an absolutely brutally effective/broken charm, especially for making it really really hard for an enemy to keep you from damaging what they have positive intimacies to.)


Of course, a Sidereal pretty much can't help verging into wierd, but that's the life of the chosen of the Maidens.

[Chimerelf]

What does powergaming have to do with games drying up?  I've seen powergamers blamed for a lot of stuff for little reason, and this certainly makes the list.

A lot of games dry up, just as a matter of course.  Real life issues come up, folks don't click, or things just don't strike too many folks' fancy.  It is the way of things.

Your comment was about games drying up due to the interesting stuff not being available.  Perhaps you meant games drying up before the interesting stuff becomes available.  In which case, I'm sorry for misunderstanding what you meant.  I was simply going off the context of your previous post.  Although I fail to see how you have difficulty understanding that powergamers who feel jilted by not being given amazing powers at character creation would stop playing and thus cause a game to dry up.

[Chimerelf]

I'm fine for openly posting character sheets, as it ensures honesty, although I'm normally about character secrecy.  I just feel that in a forum setting, openly posting character sheets is the best way.  Of course, and proof of someone using said knowledge should.

Do we have a Water Aspect yet?  It'd be nice to have one.

I know I'm playing a Wood, Josh is also wanting to play a Wood, Ult Lifeform is playing an Air, like 3 people are wanting to play Earth, and I think, Katina is playing a Fire.

[ReijiTabibito]

The tally is as follows:

Ultlifeform - Air
Chimerelf & Josh the Aspie - Wood
Pumpkin Seeds & Katina Tarask - Earth
The Great Triangle - Water
Terian - Fire

Though Terian has said that if he doesn't have a character sheet to me by the weekend, he's probably not going to be able to play.

[The Great Triangle]

I'm perfectly fine with posting my full character sheet, dark secrets and all.  (though of course, I redefined my dark secrets to things that wouldn't be offensive to most exalted players.)

My character is a mostly combat oriented one, though not at an extreme level of expertise.  (although he could probably kick the butt of a poorly designed celestial exalted pretty easily... although to be fair, so could a gang of mortals swinging lead pipes.)


While I'm at it, another reason I enjoy playing Dragon Blooded is that I can go into my peripheral essence pool without other players exploding with "O Noes!   Apocolypse Tiem!"  Sort of reactions.  (Although I think a lot of people have an insanely distorted view of the power of the Bronze Faction and the Wyld Hunt, as well as possibly the number of elder sidereals.)

[ReijiTabibito]

Okay, quick note to everyone playing.  After submission of some character sheets, and talking it over with other players, I have decided to raise the cap on bonus points gained from Flaws to 15 (as opposed to the original 10).  If you want to take advantage of this, feel free.  If your character is fine as-is, then that's great as well.  The 4 different Flaw cap still stands, though.

[Katina Tarask]

I'm generally against secrecy between players.  Anything that everyone else doesn't know may as well not exist.  It's also the difference between, "Hey, you just stabbed me in the back after all this build-up and it was awesome," versus, "You just stabbed me in the back out of nowhere and it sucked, screw you."  Players ought to trust each other.

And seeing others' sheets may be useful to me.  Newbie and all.

Your comment was about games drying up due to the interesting stuff not being available.  Perhaps you meant games drying up before the interesting stuff becomes available.  In which case, I'm sorry for misunderstanding what you meant.  I was simply going off the context of your previous post.  Although I fail to see how you have difficulty understanding that powergamers who feel jilted by not being given amazing powers at character creation would stop playing and thus cause a game to dry up.

It's about both.

The notion that interesting things that you can legally acquire in character creation should instead be 'earned' annoys me, as they can be legally obtained in character creation and are assumed 'earned' by default.  A demon-summoner in character creation is weird and significant, yes.  That doesn't mean the player should have to wait three months to be allowed access to the basics of her character.

Getting bored and walking away because you were told, "No, you can't have your character this month," is not being a powergamer.  It's just base wanting to play the game, and getting frustrated when you're denied that.

And... we're playing Exalted for crying out loud.  A system where a freshly made character can create the Pieta in a minute.  The game's practically built on ridiculous, over-the-top powers.  Just making an exalted in the first place means you're getting amazing powers at character creation.

Beyond that?  The, 'You have to go earn that,' mentality applied to things that are already earned as a part of character creation is extremely frustrating, particularly since it prevents interesting things from happening in the timeframe required to maintain the game.

And dude, watch your use of 'powergamer.'  Right about now, it's very insulting and utterly baseless.

[The Great Triangle]

Personally, I vote for no secrets.  That way if the game dies prematurely, we still get the story.  I also think that it's a good thing for players to act on secret information, so long as they have their characters act in a reasonable way given what they know.  This grants two concrete advantages: dramatic irony, which doesn't need to be explained, and it keeps the story from getting pulled in a dozen directions at once by players who don't know to incorporate things into the narrative.  Sure, characters may not spend the entire game doing strictly realistic things, but in a game about magical kung fu demigods, characters behaving in odd ways to better the story is a very acceptable break from reality.  (and is even codified in setting in the form of fate)   

On an OOC level, knowing all of your character's magical abilities and doodads also lets us suggest plans to you in OOC that might not occur to you personally, but that your character might think of, which could be incredibly useful.


(now, there is one kind of secret in roleplays that I'm very fond of, and that's the secret nobody knows.  It can be quite fun to put mysteries into your character's backstory and leave them purposely unexplained, so that other players, particualrly the GM, can fit them in during play.)

[Chimerelf]

I apologize.  I didn't know powergamer was an insulting term.  Then again, I've never been accused of being one, so I have nothing to compare my experiences to.  I'll take this time to point out that I have not called a single person in this group a powergamer.  Although I will go on record now of suspecting one.

As you said, the game lets you create a character with amazing powers.  You'll already come into game as an amazingly powerful being, so why should it matter if you don't get something at character creation?

And how is it not a powergamer who refuses to quest for what they want?  Is that not the entire purpose of roleplaying?  Or is it simply a matter of not being able to see other aspects to a character other than the monster power you're seeking?

I believe in every White Wolf book ever published, they say that the GM has final say on what is and isn't allowed in their game.

If you still have an issue with this, you're more than welcome to PM me or the GM about this matter.  You'll likely receive a more polite response from him.  I believe you have his aim already.

[ultlifeform]

Beyond that?  The, 'You have to go earn that,' mentality applied to things that are already earned as a part of character creation is extremely frustrating, particularly since it prevents interesting things from happening in the timeframe required to maintain the game.

As you said, the game lets you create a character with amazing powers.  You'll already come into game as an amazingly powerful being, so why should it matter if you don't get something at character creation?

And how is it not a powergamer who refuses to quest for what they want?  Is that not the entire purpose of roleplaying?  Or is it simply a matter of not being able to see other aspects to a character other than the monster power you're seeking?

Well, if the rules allow it, then I suppose it's simply up to the storyteller... If the rules don't allow it... Well, technically I suppose it's still up to the storyteller... In the end, like everything, it just comes down to what the storyteller is comfortable or able to allow with in his game for whatever the reason... Sometimes it's a mechanic she may not be comfortable with, or other times it may have something to do with the story, in which case she may lie and say she's not comfortable with it in order to not give a lead on the story (I know I've done that before)... and sometimes it can add story and drama to go hunting for a rare item or ability, as opposed to starting with it... If you start with everything you want, what do you honestly have left to do?

But again, everything comes down to the storyteller. You can talk it out with her, but she's does have the final say, and if you don't like the way she runs games, don't play in her games... I've been had one or two storytellers that I won't play for anymore...

[The Great Triangle]

And how is it not a powergamer who refuses to quest for what they want?  Is that not the entire purpose of roleplaying?  Or is it simply a matter of not being able to see other aspects to a character other than the monster power you're seeking?

Questing for what you want is so totally not the entire purpose of roleplaying.  The purpose of roleplaying is to Play a Role; getting more powerful is only one aspect of that, and it's not an aspect that needs to be in every game.  Although I rarely play games where no xp or character advancement occurs, quite often it's much more productive to play to start out at whatever the character creation system allows, then get going.  In a few games, this is a problem, (such as BESM) but most games enable very smooth play with heroes starting out the game fully formed in terms of power level.  (their increase in mechanical strength often being more of a metagame thing than an actual happening in the game world)

At any rate, Katina is unfamiliar with the system and not really capable of powergaming even if she wanted to.  My character is mildly optimized, but has serious weaknesses built in to make him interesting to play.  (in his case, his extremely small essence pool, which will require him to rely on his destiny to escape running dry.) 


On a completely random other note, Exalted players handed big bags of xp almost inevitably spend their xp on essence.  It's pretty cute really.

[Chimerelf]

I didn't mean questing for what one wants in a strictly XP way.  There's a reason people play heroes or villains.  They have motives.  Nobody wants to play a game as a Wal-Mart employee who has nothing else going on other than greeting customers.

Essentially, I'm saying that roleplaying is going out for what you want.  Even in BESM, characters still have plans and dreams. 

As ReijiTabibito told me, it wouldn't make for a very fun game if people had everything they wanted coming in.  I completely agree with him on this matter.

And I should clarify that I don't care what you play.  My character might, but I don't.  I just don't think it's very conducive to this game.  If you can get ReijiTabibito to allow it, go for it.

I'm aware Katina is unfamiliar with this system.  I've been informed on that matter.  However feeling insulted when someone has a discussion about powergamers and doesn't even so much as insinuate someone is a powergamer does make me leery.

[The Great Triangle]

Fun fact; I just figured out that my character sprints at 45 miles per hour, and can hit 55 miles per hour for short bursts.  He's also capable of making 35 foot vertical leaps, and 80 foot vertical leaps with extreme effort.  (If he manages to get a few charms from the Athletics tree, he'll be a regular sonic the hedgehog.)

I suppose the party is covered on the scout front.  :-)

[Katina Tarask]

As you said, the game lets you create a character with amazing powers.  You'll already come into game as an amazingly powerful being, so why should it matter if you don't get something at character creation?

And how is it not a powergamer who refuses to quest for what they want?  Is that not the entire purpose of roleplaying?  Or is it simply a matter of not being able to see other aspects to a character other than the monster power you're seeking?

When someone comes to the table with a great general (in a manner that's level-appropriate), they are saying, "I want to play a great general."  Playing a great general and facing the trials and tribulations that a great general would face is what the player is interested in.

At the same time, they are saying they are not interested in playing the young noble rising through the ranks to become a great general.  That's not the part of the story they are trying to tell.  That's not the part of the character's life they wish to explore.  They wish to explore the character after he's already become the great general, with whatever that entails, whether it be epic battles against impossible odds to save the realm or a fall from glory from which the character seeks redemption.

All forcing the character to start out as a young soldier would accomplish is forcing the player to tell a story they rather explicitly stated they were uninterested in just to get the character they wanted to play in the first place.

You keep calling it powergaming, but it's not powergaming to actually start off with a character who has done significant and meaningful things.  It's not saying you're not going to adventure for things.  That there are adventures in the past that bring you to the beginning of the game does not change the fact that there are goals and adventures in the future.  The game has to start somewhere, after all.

Should I have to play out my character's military and academic career from the beginning to earn her contacts?  Should I have to play out my character's childhood to earn her sister's enmity?  Should I have to play out her father's entire life to earn his fame?  No.  These are a part of my character's history, just as being born to a noble house is part of a noble's history, or learning to summon demons is a part of a demon summoner's history.

We all had our points to spend in character creation.  That I spend mine on creating a character who is a warrior and a scholar does not mean that someone who spends their points to become a demon summoner is wrong to do so, or a powergamer, or should be forced to earn those points we're all supposed to have simply as a part of character-creation.  It means someone else choice to spend those points differently, to take a different path to the agreed-upon baseline for character-creation, to start with a different character than my own, and there is nothing wrong with that.  They should not be penalized and denied their perfectly legal and valid character just because of some ill-conceived notion that they should be forced to earn what everyone else on the team was given merely as a part of character creation.  It's the same stack of dots, charms, and points, after all.

I believe in every White Wolf book ever published, they say that the GM has final say on what is and isn't allowed in their game.

The power is trivial next to the responsibility that goes along with it.  GM authority does not mean the GM can do whatever she pleases with impunity, regardless of reason.  Everything in the universe is subject to logic.  If a GM shoots something down for an invalid, irrational reason based on faulty reasoning from false premises, then that GM is wrong, regardless of whether or not he has the authority to make that decision.  Authority and infallibility are two entirely different things.

Well, if the rules allow it, then I suppose it's simply up to the storyteller... If the rules don't allow it... Well, technically I suppose it's still up to the storyteller... In the end, like everything, it just comes down to what the storyteller is comfortable or able to allow with in his game for whatever the reason... Sometimes it's a mechanic she may not be comfortable with, or other times it may have something to do with the story, in which case she may lie and say she's not comfortable with it in order to not give a lead on the story (I know I've done that before)... and sometimes it can add story and drama to go hunting for a rare item or ability, as opposed to starting with it... If you start with everything you want, what do you honestly have left to do?

But again, everything comes down to the storyteller. You can talk it out with her, but she's does have the final say, and if you don't like the way she runs games, don't play in her games... I've been had one or two storytellers that I won't play for anymore...

The discussion isn't so much about this game in particular as it is on philosophies of gaming as a whole.  However, again, that a GM has authority does not necessarily make them right.  I'm arguing against the, "You should have to earn that [blah] that you can completely legitimately acquire in character creation," tact as wrong.  Whether or not the GM has that authority is irrelevant to that point.

However, the 'you have to earn that' tact is very much distinct from saying, "That character is not appropriate for this game."  After all, if the game's a desert adventure, the pirate with all her points, assets, and abilities tied into her ship is not going to be appropriate.  There are many, many valid reasons to reject a character.  Mechanics the GM's not comfortable with, books the GM doesn't have, things that are just plain broken, characters who don't fit with the group, all of these are valid reasons.  'You should earn that' regarding something that can legitimately be obtained within the agreed-upon character-creation guidelines?  Not legitimate, regardless of whether the GM has that authority.

I didn't mean questing for what one wants in a strictly XP way.  There's a reason people play heroes or villains.  They have motives.  Nobody wants to play a game as a Wal-Mart employee who has nothing else going on other than greeting customers.

Essentially, I'm saying that roleplaying is going out for what you want.  Even in BESM, characters still have plans and dreams.

And there are many, many characters and motives and stories, at many, many points.  That you start off with some level of achievement does not mean you have everything you want, nor that you are out of stories.  If you're telling a story of the king, his great general, and his most trusted archmage adviser, this level of achievement does not mean they are out of stories, desires, or motivations.  It simply means they have a very different set of stories, desires, and motivations than they would have if they were starting out as a young prince, a common soldier, and a studious apprentice.

I'm aware Katina is unfamiliar with this system.  I've been informed on that matter.  However feeling insulted when someone has a discussion about powergamers and doesn't even so much as insinuate someone is a powergamer does make me leery.

It is your very definition of powergamer and your treatment of the topic that offend, and it is a topic that transcends this specific system.  The way you define 'powergamer' engulfs pretty much everyone who makes characters that start with a significant and unusual degree of achievement, which is inherently insulting to those of us who like to have characters who start out with a significant and unusual degree of achievement.

I tend to be leery of a group loaded up with nothing but glass cannons (haha! Look at what I can do.  I can control all of creation.  Ack.  Papercut.  I am dead.).  This makes the game swingy, since anything we can't instantly wipe the floor with can instantly wipe the floor with us.  True in D&D, and Exalted both.

Oh, I love glass cannon groups, especially in D&D.  Level 1.  3d8+1d6+6 damage with the big friggin' sword.  Twelve AC.  I don't know how this fight'll go, but I promise it'll be short.

Particularly in PbP, fights that drag on tend to get pretty boring, and in PbP D&D, 'drag on' tends to set in around round two, so I prefer to have characters, groups, and encounters geared to end before round two.  And I'm of the school that a fight between masters should be decided with a single stroke.

[The Great Triangle]

Craft (Earth)  Would come in handy if you want to dig field fortifications for battle.  (though, being dragon blooded, it's not like that would come up a whole lot.)  Craft (Water) would probably be the best choice, since you could brew poison with it, and then we could make our weapon attacks in general more effective.  Another good source of poison is sorcery + elemental summoning, or even demon summoning if you want somewhat more risque poisons.  If you're a sorcerer, you may also want to consider Craft (Vitriol), which would let you use your demon summoning to make delicious essence restoring milkshakes and wacky but fun infernal relics.



Popular joke among sorcerers:  "How dangerous is demon summoning?  A lot less dangerous than most non sorcerers suspect, but a lot more dangerous than any demonologist would ever admit."  (Now of course, this isn't counting the thousands of incidents every year that happen as a result of elemental beings being summoned and poorly controlled thanks to inexperienced sorcerers thinking they're cute and friendly just because they're native to creation.)

[The Great Triangle]

I'm not the GM, but essence silk would likely be Craft: Wood, while Powerbows would likely be Craft: Fire.  (A conventional bow would probably be craft fire or wood, since craft: wood consists mostly of practical arts such as weaving and carpentry, while craft: fire consists of civilized arts like weapon making and pottery.  A bow made with craft: wood would be a hunting bow, while a bow made with craft: fire would be a war bow.)

Craft: Earth is also the relevant skill for manses indeed.  :-)  It's also used for building construction in general, civic engineering, and earthworks. 

You could also take Craft: Genesis if you have lore 1, medicine 1, and occult 1.  It would come in handy if you plan on genetically modifying some poor animal to suit your whims or if you run across some biomagitech.