The Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School Shooting

[Deamonbane]

Correctly reasoning and arguing using best methods, evidence, and logic is never a waste of time. I used to entertain a lot of incorrect beliefs about the world, and one of the things that helped change my mind was reading the writings and hearing the talk of skeptics who used argument and evidence to show how some of my sacred cows weren't real.

Even if Drake never comes around on this point, others are here and able to witness and maybe can appreciate the point I was trying to make. And even if my post is universally rejected, ignored, or whatever, I at least got benefit out of it, because I went through the process of really evaluating the claims made. Thinking correctly and logically is as much a skill as being able to run a marathon, and requires training and discipline just like prepping for a marathon. Even if no one else on these forums appreciated the post, the time I put into it is no more wasted than time I spend training for a race.

I like this reasoning.

[TheGlyphstone]

Fair enough. I'm a statistics junky anyways, so it's fun to read; just didn't want you to be spending effort on someone who wouldn't appreciate it.

[DominantPoet]

Many kudos to Regina for that awesome rebuttal :D

[ReijiTabibito]

To quote:

"A conspiracy theory can be defined as any world view that traces important events to a secretive, nefarious cabal and whose proponents respond to contrary facts, not by modifying their hypotheses, but instead by insisting on the existence of ever-widening circle of high-level conspirators, who control most or all parts of society."

The idea that ANY American would want to see OTHER Americans dead just to raise an issue is ludicrous.

In jail, and under indictment (I'm STILL looking at YOU, Rolling Stone!), maybe.  But death?  Eh-eh.

[Lustful Bride]

To add onto what Raiji said.

[Blythe]

Okay, problematic posts deleted & a point that needs addressing:

For the record, a more general thread reminder: If you find out someone has been restricted from posting in the PROC, please do not post their opinions/views from PMs on PROC things in the PROC. It's construed as helping them circumvent a restriction. If they cannot post here, you should not be posting for them here in any way.

Anyways, folks, carry on. Let's head on back to the original thread topic.

Thank you. :)

[Blythe]

A middle school student in my area has been suspended for a possible shooting threat--they were looking up school shooting info well beyond just looking up the news.

Local law enforcement also was contacted by the high school about a potential credible threat, and I think the student was taken into custody.

Am happy the schools where I live are very on-point about this stuff, but I'm also terrified for the students where I live now.  :-\

[Oniya]

Happened to see this on NPR:  https://n.pr/2FYzq56

Short-short version:  'To prevent gun violence at schools, don't harden them.  Make them softer by improving social and emotional health. [...] if you devote resources to shutting down bullying, discrimination and harassment, there is a chance to de-escalate conflict before it starts.'

[Aiden]

Hey, take your common sense somewhere else.

We need real solutions!

[Oniya]

You know, that kind of dismissive response is exactly why conversations about doing something about these incidents never go anywhere.  People who feel they need to come out with some kind of snarky comment, without even a token glance at what was proposed, for nothing more than the sheer desire to be contrary.

[Eye of Horus]

Short-short version:  'To prevent gun violence at schools, don't harden them.  Make them softer by improving social and emotional health. [...] if you devote resources to shutting down bullying, discrimination and harassment, there is a chance to de-escalate conflict before it starts.'

Makes sense to me - making schools a harder target wouldn’t work as a deterrent since most people who get to that stage aren’t planning on getting out alive, if they’ve thought that far ahead at all. And if there’s one common thread that links the (very varied) personalities and circumstances of school shooters, it’s usually depression:
https://www.vox.com/2014/11/3/7132879/school-shooting-facts

This approach also nicely throws down the gauntlet to the standard NRA line that “it’s not a gun issue, it’s a mental health issue”.

But has America yet reached the tipping point where enough people are angry for long enough to defeat the gun lobby?

[Regina Minx]

I'm not saying that it should be a requirement, but if there are teachers that are willing to take on that responsibility, and can pass the necessary checks and balances in order to do so, why shouldn't they be able to?  That's all I'm asking.

Because you’ll get a whole lot more of this.

And this.

[Mithlomwen]

Sure, there are going to be accidents.  That part is inevitable. 

Those two examples of that.  One of them the teacher, who lawfully carried a concealed carry permit, had the gun accidentally go off and shot herself in the leg.  The other, a student injured by shrapnel, not by the actual bullet.  Don't get me wrong, investigations need to happen in those incidents.  Questions as to why they happened need to be answered.  Absolutely.

On the flip side of that.  There have been 281 students killed in school shootings since Columbine in 1999. That doesn't count the number injured.  That's just the ones that lost their lives.  And that total is only since 1999. 

The numbers are staggering.  Even more so when you add in the number of injured on top of that total, just since 1999. Then add on the number of both fatalities and injured that go back to say....the 1970s. 

It's unreal.   :'(

[Mithlomwen]

I just wanted to add....

I honestly don't know what the answer is.  But something has to change.  The system isn't working as it stands now.  Children (and adults) are continually losing their lives, and increasingly larger numbers.  Something needs to be done.  What that is I don't know, but I'm willing to entertain any and all ideas that might help protect our country's  kids (teachers and staff). 

[Regina Minx]

Sure, there are going to be accidents.  That part is inevitable. 

I don’t disgareee with you. Heck, that’s the point I was trying to make. You asked why shouldn’t teachers
Who want to be armed carry guns to school. My answer is that is creates a situation in which these kids in school now have a non-zero percent chance of being injured in a accidental discharge situation. Whatever that non-zero number is, it’s too high. Children in school should have a zero percent (or less!) chance of being shot by their teacher.

[Oniya]

I'm going to quote a longer portion of the article I linked earlier, as it raises a lot of good points.  The article itself has loads of link-outs to more specific and detailed information, so I encourage people to click through to the actual site version.

Prevention: The first step

School climate may sound fuzzy or abstract. It means the quality of relationships among the students and the adults in a school. It's affected by the school's approach to discipline and behavior, the availability of professionals like counselors and social workers, as well as any social-emotional curriculum taught in the classroom.

School climate, in turn, affects students' mental and emotional health and academic success. And research by Astor and others has consistently found key factors that can make schools safer: cultivate social and emotional health, connect to community resources and respond, particularly, to troubled students.

Why does this matter? Well, for one thing, the very kids who bring weapons to school are more likely to report being bullied or threatened themselves. They may be fearful of gang violence and feel a need to protect themselves on the way back and forth to school.

Or, they may be individually ostracized and aggrieved. This is true not just in the United States, says Astor, but in "Kosovo, Canada, Chile, Israel, the kids who bring weapons to school are reporting tons of victimization."

So, if you devote resources to shutting down bullying, discrimination and harassment, there is a chance to de-escalate conflict before it starts.

And research shows that school climate measures really work. In fact, there has been a steady downward trend in bullying and harassment over the past decade, which Catherine Bradshaw at the University of Virginia attributes in part to evidence-based social and emotional measures.

[TheScarletBlade]

I just wanted to add....

I honestly don't know what the answer is.  But something has to change.  The system isn't working as it stands now.  Children (and adults) are continually losing their lives, and increasingly larger numbers.  Something needs to be done.  What that is I don't know, but I'm willing to entertain any and all ideas that might help protect our country's  kids (teachers and staff).

Actually school shootings remain rare compared statistically to other shootings in the nation. That aside, the utter lack of enforcement of current guns shouldn't create more laws that go unenforced, maybe we should focus on enforcing current laws? The bureaucratic leashes, mostly created by the anti government left, has left organizations like the FBI crippled when it comes to dealing with a report that some kid is crazy and training himself for a school shooting. What do extra laws do when the current system doesn't work? How about we enforce current laws and see how it all works out? This kid would have been denied a gun, the mentally deranged guy from the air force would have been denied a gun, steven paddock would have been denied a gun and thats a main three of shooters lately?

Why restrict all gun owners? I served in a special operations detachment in the Marines. I am an Army Ranger as well. There is not a human on earth better trained with a fire arm than me. Why do I need to turn over my AR-15 when I only use it to maintain my stellar marksmanship scores, so I can better serve my country? If we had enforced the current laws on the books, I could have my weapons and Nicholas would have been barred for owning a gun because of the criminal reporting process. The lazy ass FBI was to busy looking into random partisan bullshit to worry about a real threat and the blood of these kids is on their hands Not the NRA, not me or any other lawful gun owner. Creating more laws is stupid, when they don't even enforce current ones?

Lastly, to address armed school teachers. I am state certified firearms and concealed carry trainer. if the bullshit excuse of "I'm afraid my teacher could shoot my kid" is your excuse, that is ludicrous. Each and every student of my that goes through even the basic concealed carry class is trained on the range and in the classroom well beyond what they should be. It's not random teachers carrying weapons, its individuals who have undergone hours of classwork and range time, getting professional instruction in firearm use that would be carry. These trained teachers would not only be a safety net for defenseless teachers, they are trained beyond normal standards, meaning the handling of a firearm would be second nature to them. The chance of "DANGER" or "MISFIRE" would be non-existant.

Armed teachers is more efficient than bull shit gun bans. Look that the UK, they are banning knives now, because everyone is killing people with knives, since guns are banned. At the end of the day, its not the tool that carries out the crime, its the person doing it. With the training I have, I don't need an assault rifle, but its a constantly spread lie that its only assault rifles that cause trouble. It's propaganda. I don't understand why people can't believe that but believe 9/11 was an inside a job??
I

[Oniya]

How do you propose funding the training of teachers in proper gun handling?

[TheScarletBlade]

Actually, almost every state has trained firearms instructors willing to train teachers for free. I live in Montana and have trained 20+ teachers already. Great Falls High School just had a threat today and 2 teachers I trained were there and ready to defend their students. To bad it was a false alarm.

[Blythe]

Actually, almost every state has trained firearms instructors willing to train teachers for free. I live in Montana and have trained 20+ teachers already. Great Falls High School just had a threat today and 2 teachers I trained were there and ready to defend their students. To bad it was a false alarm.

Dude, I don't know about you, but I find it fantastic that it was a false alarm instead of the real thing, not 'too bad.' Given that avoiding a school shooting is a good thing, not a regrettable thing.

[Oniya]

Actually, almost every state has trained firearms instructors willing to train teachers for free.

Interesting to know.  What about the cost of supplying them with firearms?  (Assuming, of course, that the teacher passes background checks and is otherwise willing.)  I ask this because many school districts are struggling with the cost of paper and pencils, not to mention teacher salaries.

And actually, speaking as a parent of a high school student, false alarms are the best kind to have.  Being ready to defend is one thing, but not having to is far preferred.

[TheScarletBlade]

Actually I think that the lack of a school shooting not dealt with by swift, unmutable means a serious crime. Look at that shooting I think that was in baltimore a week after the Majory shooting, the police officer there shoot the dude dead in half a second. Was that school shooting reported? Hell no because it didn't fit the narrative that guns are dangerous and every child on earth is under risk.

I would rather one of the high trained teachers who trained diligently under me shot and killed some asshole than it be some redneck to blocks over popping rounds off into the morning sky. It would prove the effectiveness of my claim while protecting the important students attending school.

Also just to mention, I live a block from the school. I was in my nest, scoped in waiting for said asshole to appear. Unlike Nicholas Cruz, if said threat actually existed, it wouldn't be for long. ;)

Most teachers who have come to my training and other teachers in other states, many are armed of their own accord. It might be surprising to the left, but a bulk of our nation actually owns firearms. I know, its a shocker but it's true......

[TheScarletBlade]

Actually I think that the lack of a school shooting not dealt with by swift, unmutable means seems a serious crime. Look at that shooting I think that was in baltimore a week after the Majory shooting, the police officer there shoot the dude dead in half a second. Was that school shooting reported? Hell no because it didn't fit the narrative that guns are dangerous and every child on earth is under risk.

I would rather one of the high trained teachers who trained diligently under me shot and killed some asshole than it be some redneck to blocks over popping rounds off into the morning sky. It would prove the effectiveness of my claim while protecting the important students attending school.

Also just to mention, I live a block from the school. I was in my nest, scoped in waiting for said asshole to appear. Unlike Nicholas Cruz, if said threat actually existed, it wouldn't be for long. ;)

Most teachers who have come to my training and other teachers in other states, many are armed of their own accord. It might be surprising to the left, but a bulk of our nation actually owns firearms. I know, its a shocker but it's true......

[Oniya]

I think you missed the fact that Blythe and I both were saying that it being a 'false alarm' - that is to say no one planning to commit a school shooting - is far better than a valid alarm of someone actually planning to commit a school shooting. 

I would rather have the false alarm of my smoke detector going off while I'm cooking bacon than an actual alarm of my house being on fire.  Yes, my smoke detector works, but no, my family is not in danger.

[TheScarletBlade]

Once again, I will say it's cute that you side step the real issue and try to focus on the "tragic" aspect of the statement. Instead of acknowledging my desire to see trained teachers, which proves my point to deal with a threat, you twist the words to make me seem out of sorts and advocating violence.

To use a fire alarm analogy, I would rather it work and you understand the inner workings of it that to question the need for it and to ban fire alarms in general, I would rather it alarm and you accept it then question it.

To make my position clear and to express that this is my own position, not to be confused with others and not to be confused for your liberal propaganda.....

I would rather shit bag school shooters put their intentions on social media like a bunch of idiots and get iced by trained school officials than we ban all guns. Banning all guns means nothing because criminals will still possess guns illegally because well they dont give a fuck about laws?  I guarantee that Cruz would still  have founds means to attack this school in the end. Look at the sinkhole called Europe, they banned guns and now they are the worlds deadliest area for knives. Humans wanna kill other humans. You cannot deny that fact. No matter how emotionally sensitive you get. Banning guns is not the answer.

Violence and death are inevitable.  Instead of insulating yourself against that, most people pray that it goes away but that doesn't change shit. Why continue that futility?