London Riot's

[Silk]

For a fair while now there has been constant rioting in London, and is threatening to spill over into other major cities such as southampton. There is a fair few theories behind them. But its majoritally coming into the benefit community who don't want to work getting pissed at the government. Oh, and a drug dealer attacked the police and got killed. I don't know of any other reasons yet as to why this is all kicking off. But it is mostly in the minority areas. Such as Lewisham.

[Kendra]

The first incident was a man was shot by the guards police and a riot occurred as a result. Now however it is pure all out thuggery and chaos. We were watching it on the news and on the phone to some mates who live in East London and it's just crazy.

Teenagers are looting, attacking and burning out wheelie bins, stores and peoples cars etc. You can see them on the news actually filming the entire events as they happen on their mobiles. Personally I think they should call out the national guard before it gets worse than what it has. It's not just the rough North London districts that every one is more or less not surprised by, the riot police have been issued to all the London boroughs.

We were watching a clip today of a guy who was injured, not sure if he was one of the many looters or not but he got looted himself ...

London Riots - Scum steal from injured boy.

[WhiteyChan]

The first incident was a man was shot by the guards police and a riot occurred as a result. Now however it is pure all out thuggery and chaos. We were watching it on the news and on the phone to some mates who live in East London and it's just crazy.

Teenagers are looting, attacking and burning out wheelie bins, stores and peoples cars etc. You can see them on the news actually filming the entire events as they happen on their mobiles. Personally I think they should call out the national guard before it gets worse than what it has. It's not just the rough North London districts that every one is more or less not surprised by, the riot police have been issued to all the London boroughs.

We were watching a clip today of a guy who was injured, not sure if he was one of the many looters or not but he got looted himself ...

London Riots - Scum steal from injured boy.

Its spread to Birmingham, Southampton, Bristol, Brighton, Portsmouth... I wouldn't be surprised if most major towns/cities in the UK are going to see some form of it in the next couple of days. The people doing it are just pathetic. I mean, seriously - do they really have nothing else to do? No, wait, don't answer that, silly question. A Sky news reporter was videoing some of the destruction in London (he had some major balls of steel, going up to some of the looters and yelling "Are you proud? Are you proud of what you're doing?" at them) and he said that some shops weren't touched, such as Waterstone's. All I could think was, well, that's not a surprise, is it? Maybe if they did loot Waterstone's they'd actually learn something.

If any E members are in London, I wish you well. Stay safe.

[Nico]

This is just terrible. I am with Wayne Rooney who said that it's horrible. What people can do to their own country and their towns. It's a shame. :-(

[Malefique]

Damn right it's awful, and it's all about greed; the excuses about deprivation are just that, excuses.  I live in an area where one household in three has someone with a job; our city has devastating unemployment, poor health care and education, and a dreadful housing crisis, but there's no rioting here.  Not a peep.  This is about criminal gangs resenting the police fighting back, and using it as an excuse for looting - but note, not bookshops; they loot electrical goods shops, designer clothing outlets, phone shops, PC World...  Incidentally the man shot was a crack dealer who had a gun of his own (which is illegal in the UK, BTW) and ran with a gang who are known for pouring boiling water over the genitals of people they don't like. 

[Inkidu]

Guess what they're blaming it on? That's right video games...

I kid you not.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/112137-British-Media-Blames-Games-For-London-Riots

[Kendra]

I've been watching the news and had it on the background all of today and I've never been angrier in my life. Teenage bloody thugs and nothing else, they showed the level of damage to peoples homes and businesses. Complete apartment blocks burned out! They were dragging people from their cars, beating them up and then setting fire to the cars. It made me sick that the 'education' system got blamed, that some people were saying 'oh there's nothing for them to do, there's no youth clubs or places for them to hang out' ... so what ... go destroy public and private property then? destroy innocent peoples lives?

They caught a guy who was inciting a riot via facebook - there's kids out there as young as eleven years of age looting! I mean where the F#@K are their parents?

What I was chuffed with was one small community, they knew the rioters were drawing close to their cul de sac and they got the kids and elderly in doors, then all the grown-ups went side by side and blocked the entire entrance to where they lived. The rioters couldn't get through - that's the bloody way to do it ;)

[HockeyGod]

I know I'm being really, really selfish, and my heart goes out to the people of England...but I'm supposed to be there in 6 days. Please, please, please find calm and peace.

[Nadir]

If you think it's just teenagers doing this, you've not been paying attention. People as young as 12 and as old as 43 have been arrested (or whatever the word is for minors) - in Manchester at least. The Ugg shop was smashed into and raided buy teens under the direction of a man in his 30s who fled the scene when he noticed someone was videoing him on a camera phone.

While the teens might be the face of the attacks, there are others behind them - people the police are familiar with from causing riots at football games.

And, come on, what the government has been doing lately has been practically begging the lower classes to rebel. They had smashed these kids futures - no jobs, pushing education prices even higher, taking away what merger income they get from the dole, and giving nothing back in return. The government made enemies of these kids, made them desperate and vulnerable to the suggestions of violent minded men.

I think it's disgusting how black and white the media are portraying this.     

[Sabby]

Initially that seems hyperbolic, but the Standard's story quotes both an anonymous police officer and a local resident who place the blame squarely on Rockstar's magnum opus. Intriguingly, neither the officer, nor the resident are referenced anywhere in the story beyond the quotations

Well I'm convinced.

[Inkidu]

Well I'm convinced.

God, isn't this whole affair just horrible enough without crappy media coverage. Why can't they get to the real heart of the issue.

[Saerrael]

Pointing the blame at a video game is easy. Also, media coverage is often black and white to increase the amount of readers. It's easier to state something than to get to the heart of things. People don't have to think too deeply to understand what is written. People who actually do wish to think a bit deeper than what media gives them, are rare.
Don't forget that the news is often but another way to be entertained, not to be informed.

[Callie Del Noire]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14458424

It blows my mind.. like one news short I saw about six weeks after the Rodney King riots in LA. These, excuse my crudity, FUCKING IDIOTS burn stuff down in their own neighborhoods and then look surprised when the owners move on to other locations. I doubt the business owners are likely to trust folks that on a ragged tear burn down their own livelihoods and then expect the owners to come back for more.

It was stupid then.. it's stupid now.

I guess it goes to show that stupid people are truly universal. Makes me want to get a big shot of something potent and put in a shooting game or something minimially brain exercising to get my anger out before I take it out on someone who doesn't deserve it.


Update..

Then I saw this..

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14470772

and here the story of the families that put their kids in their home and blocked off their street to protect their homes. At least someone is being sensitble and working together.

[Kendra]

If you think it's just teenagers doing this, you've not been paying attention. People as young as 12 and as old as 43 have been arrested (or whatever the word is for minors) - in Manchester at least. The Ugg shop was smashed into and raided buy teens under the direction of a man in his 30s who fled the scene when he noticed someone was videoing him on a camera phone.

While the teens might be the face of the attacks, there are others behind them - people the police are familiar with from causing riots at football games.

And, come on, what the government has been doing lately has been practically begging the lower classes to rebel. They had smashed these kids futures - no jobs, pushing education prices even higher, taking away what merger income they get from the dole, and giving nothing back in return. The government made enemies of these kids, made them desperate and vulnerable to the suggestions of violent minded men.

I think it's disgusting how black and white the media are portraying this.     

not sure what news reel you've been watching but as yet on Sky news I haven't seen any thing relating to any of the 'Combat 18' crew that are infamous for inciting the soccer riots or anything relating to those 'usual suspects'. I'd be interested in seeing it if you have a link. Again any images of those arrested seem to be of the younger persuasion but I wouldn't doubt for a second that there are older thugs out there as well. To say that these are inciting the violence however is a tad naive however, these hooligans have been doing a bang up job looting and destroying buildings on their own without any help from any one. Peddling about on their bikes on the first day, tossing any makeshift weapon they could at the police.

Yes it's fine to say the 'lower classes' are being hard done by the government but that is no reason for this sort of anarchy. It seems even in Santiago in Chile, students are rioting.

It's savage lawlessness and nothing more. If they wanted to  protest their lack of education then walk the streets and protest peacefully but that's not what they chose to do. If they wanted to protest their lack of jobs, then do like wise but destroying the very lively hoods of those that might have been the only people to give them employment is mindless.

I've literally just been watching a clip where one guy with his sunglasses and hoodie and mouth covered told the news team that 'it's all about the money' - 'they got no money' - two other guys mentioned that there is no job prospects for them, for any of them and it makes my mind boggle that they think that now there will be jobs when in fact there will be far less, now that so many businesses have been burnt out and destroyed and plundered.

@ Callie Del Noire ~ I'm delighted that other parts of the communities are taking a stand. I just wish more and more would.
Unfortunately 3 men in Birmingham trying to keep an eye outside their mosque and community were killed last night. A car mounted the kerb they were on and mowed them down.

Liverpool, Manchester and so many others got hit last night but London apparently had its quietest night yet.

Bristol got hit last night as well and had a message this morning from my Dad saying that my Grand-Aunt and Grand-Uncle both in their late seventies are absolutely terrified. That's no way to live.

No way to live at all.

[Nadir]

The think I saw about the leaders is from the BBC who have it off eyewitnesses and reporters who were in the middle

Here is a BBC interview with a looter gang who say what they did was a protest against the government - and you realise there were protests earlier this year against student fees, and the government did nothing but break an EU law against kettling. There is no one listening to them, and when they try to protest legally they get treated like animals and get a criminal record anyway.

[TheGlyphstone]

What percentage of these people, though, do you honestly believe are rioting over legitimate issues, rather than just joining in for "A Night of Fun With Fabulous Free Prizes" (as another forum discussion put it) and tacking on the 'politics' excuse after the fact?

[Transgirlenstein]

One of the looters posted a photo of him with his loot.  He showed his face.  His face.  On the internet.  Sheesh.

Some of the targets say a lot about what groups are behind this.  The one that gets me?  On Russell Square, there is a LGBT bookshop called "Gay is the Word".  Someone smashed up the windows and it was the only shop in the area that got hit.

I've been following it on Facebook, making sure that the people I know over there are okay.

[Nadir]

I doubt any of them go out thinking 'This is for such-and-such issue!' but rather the general oppressive hopelessness that stems from the issues. 55% of Haringey population live below the poverty line. Their average unemployment is double that of the national average. Eight youth centres were shut down. They have been alienated. They should be prosecuted for the damage done, no question, but unless people understand the motivating causes for this sort of outlash, it'll happen again and with more ferocity. 

[Kendra]

And yet who is to say that any of the youths from that area were the trouble makers? From one of the links you posted, one guy actually says that he can afford the stuff that he's been stealing, he prefers that he can get the stuff free when he nicks it and will keep going until he gets caught. Other comments written up from the links were ... 'I'll get shouted at by my parents when I get home but that's it, it's my first offense if I get caught. They can only slap an ASBOs on me, I can live with that!"
When asked how they'd feel if their own home got smashed into and looted, they were aghast!

There may be motivating causes Eden but personally speaking and from what I gather from lots of other people I've spoken with and seen on the television - the majority of those rioting are doing it for the freebies and the fun of it. Another guy stated that it was 'The best night of his life!'

People have been badly brutalised and many will never be able to afford to rebuild, while some businesses don't want to rebuild at all in those areas fearing the same to happen again. And I have no doubt that it will.

It's not always the government that oppresses the people but the people themselves, their lack of will and their attitude that they deserve everything the easy way. It's so easy to blame every one around them when they could stay in school which in the UK is free before third level.
Yes jobs are short but they are the world over, yet not every country and poorly affected area are rioting!

No ... it's far easier to sign on the dole and complain. They want everything but are not prepared to work for it

- so incite a riot and get what they want that way instead??

[Nadir]

I'm not condoning what they have done. I'm not saying they are in the right to do this. They should be punished for their actions. They should help rebuild what they destroyed. But you need to look at the bigger picture. Content people don't go around wrecking cities. You say they oppress themselves - I think that's ridiculous. I grew up under the poverty line. I live half a mile from a growing council estate. I have a lot of close contact with people who depend on welfare and have been abandoned by the government. Your way of expressing your point of view comes across as ignorant and out of touch. The media will not tell you the whole truth. Word of mouth can be distorted to suit either angle.

[Oniya]

I spent way too much time yesterday reading a thread on the Escapist forum started by someone who said he 'agreed with the rioters'.  Ten pages with surprisingly little flaming of the OP - lots of contradicting, but it was pretty coherent contradicting.

Things that make me suspicious of the rioters motivation:

Organizing through Blackberry phones and Twitter.
Posting pictures of their loot on Facebook.
Attempting to sell such loot on Facebook.
A recording of two girls claiming 'It's just a bit o' fun, innit?'
More than a few just shrugging when asked why they were rioting.

Just my opinion, but if you're protesting something - even if you're resorting to a violent protest ala the Rodney King riots - you should be able to tell the TV news crew why you're out there.  Otherwise, your message doesn't get out there, and you look like a bunch of hoodlums.

[Kendra]

I grew up on a council estate as well Eden.

You are not the only one who grew up below the poverty line - many did and many do - it's not an excuse for the madness we all witnessed the past few days.

To say that my views and opinions come across as ignorant is in itself a highly ignorant thing to say.
You are asking us to feel sorry for those who are out there destroying lives because there is an underlying problem -
what exactly is their solution to this problem? a riot
What is yours??

I'm tired of listening to the procrastinations of those who feel sorry for these thugs.

You seem to be blaming  those living below the poverty line for the riots and yet plenty of the youths have mobiles etc and don't seem to be very poor at all to me.
In other words - I don't believe it is a 'poverty' issue.

pulling this discussion into a personal bashing on my views is inconsequential and now to say that the media won't tell us the truth after linking us to so much of it, is in itself ridiculous.

Word of mouth can be distorted to suit either angle.

and now don't believe anything anyone tells us?
what is it you're trying to say Eden because quite frankly your word of mouth is confusing.

I deplore how these rioters have behaved.
I deplore their inane violence against innocent people and their property.
I do not believe that they acted out of good conscience in that they did it as an act of protest.

I think I've made my views quite clear that time.

And I agree completely Oniya - any of the rioters I've seen on the news all mumbled incoherently their speel about the government but then were quite clear when it came to what they managed to steal - this again was even seen on one of the links from Eden.

discussion is over for me - I'm heading to Wales for a week.
Will still be following the news closely however and hoping that there won't be another night of riots and violence for the people of England.

All of whom are in my thoughts.

[Nadir]

You're determination in misunderstanding what I say is alarming, but fine, whatever.

[OldSchoolGamer]

What percentage of these people, though, do you honestly believe are rioting over legitimate issues, rather than just joining in for "A Night of Fun With Fabulous Free Prizes" (as another forum discussion put it) and tacking on the 'politics' excuse after the fact?

As with most controversies like this, the truth is probably somewhere in the middle.  Yes, there are some rioters who are in it for the cash and prizes.  Many of the folks who had their buildings burned down or property destroyed were innocent citizens who had little or nothing to do with the bad public policies in question.  That is undeniably true, and in most cases the rioters certainly delivered their grievances to the wrong addresses  But I've also studied enough history to know that things like this seldom arise in a vacuum.  And make no mistake: this is coming to America's shores soon enough.  And what's scary is firearms are a lot more freely available in America than Britain.

Groups like the Tea Party here in America should take note: giving the working class the finger when it complains about economic/austerity hardship might play well to your affluent, conservative base...but don't be too terribly surprised if the (far more numerous) working class and unemployed youth with no prospects break off that middle finger, bend you over, and jam it "where the sun don't shine."  Is it a constructive, productive response?  No.  Is it human?  Yes indeed.

[Malefique]

@ Eden - it isn't a poverty issue.  The thugs involved have been organising and orchestrating their systematic looting via Blackberry.  I live in a place, as I said, which has one of the highest unemployment rates in the UK; we have several estates where 50% of the adults between 18 and 65 are unemployed, and of those working less than 20 % have full time permanent employment.  We also have one of the highest rates of substandard housing in the UK, exceptionally high mortality rates for both adults and infants, most of our schools have been or are in special measures because they are performing badly, and our authority's plan for mending it is to bulldoze good housing and thriving businesses to make way for shoddy 'executive' housing priced higher than most local people could afford if entire families contributed to the mortgage payments, and shopping developments nobody wants to open shops in.  But there have been no riots here.  Are we less deprived?  Are our future prospects better?  No.  But we don't have an large entrenched gang culture which has been encouraged in the belief that whatever consumables they want are their 'yoomin right', and that they will go unpunished for this.  We do have a number of these vile yobs, of various ages; some are fifth generation scum.  But they are scum.  And they don't give a stuff about education cuts because they claim benefits on the basis that they have learning difficulties - meaning they never bothered showing up at school.  Shutting the youth clubs  doesn't bother them because the only time they show up is when they feel like causing bother or robbing the place.  Unemployment is a career choice for them, though in fact they do have a trade or two, theft and drug trafficking.  Why should they do real work when a couple of hours peddling heroin in a club earns them more than working people see in a month here?  This situation is a result of  the nurturing of these spoiled brat thugs. 

[Missy]

All I can say is it's a sick and perverse day when the government must act to protect it's citizens from their neighbors.

I hope things get better for you guys and I'm sorry it's so bad.

[Major Major]

You know what was hideiously hilarious just now? I was listening to the radio, on one of those music stations where you can request songs, right?

They played London Calling by The Clash, and I Predict a Riot by the Kaiser Chiefs, practically back to back.

[Wyrd]

So... One of my close friend's tattoo shop got sacked and fucked a few days ago. So whether this is some sort of proud demonstration or misguided youth, I'm not sure... But if something smells like shit, looks like shit and tastes like shit, then it's a piece of shit. So I'm gonna sorta agree withone of the earlier posts... In my words: These people are nothing but shit.

[Noelle]

All I can say is it's a sick and perverse day when the government must act to protect it's citizens from their neighbors.

Isn't that kind of what they do every day, though? There are laws against theft and murder, after all.

At any rate, I agree with the gist of your sentiment -- pretty sad that what's started out as a protest has turned into free-for-all shitstorm. Hopefully things calm down and get resolved in good time.

[Callie Del Noire]

So... One of my close friend's tattoo shop got sacked and fucked a few days ago. So whether this is some sort of proud demonstration or misguided youth, I'm not sure... But if something smells like shit, looks like shit and tastes like shit, then it's a piece of shit. So I'm gonna sorta agree withone of the earlier posts... In my words: These people are nothing but shit.

Or like it's put from one of the english web comic artists I follow said.



Okay it's like this.. as one movie character once side. "You don't shit where you eat." And these idiots are doing just that.

[Syauglan]

For me the worst thing about the riots is the righteousness BS everyone indulges in as a result.

...

...

[Ophelia Jaxon]

I was surprisedd at how quickly this now pointless riot moved through the country. It's bad in Liverpool which is the boiggest city we're close to...Don't know if it's hit in Chester yet, we're on the other side of the Mersey, but lastnight it even hit us (well...a 10 min drive from us) in Birkenhead. It's...Well scary.

[Malediction]

This is all not that surprising. Youth unemployment is at shocking levels 20+% last time I looked. Those who are looking for work find themselves having to jump through ridiculous hoops and at the same time are demonised or exploited on work schemes that are tantamount to slave labour. I have seen all the youth services in my local area destroyed. Quite happy well adjusted teens can't even hang around together with out a dispersal order coming into effect. Those who showed an interest in politics feel they have had their futures sold out. Suicide rates of the young are sky-rocketing to the point mental health services are struggling to cope. I am picking up on a sense of rage that has nowhere to go amidst pure despondency. This is amongst the more actively motivated youth, who have gone on marches and realise it is all for nothing so just go get wasted off their face.   Better than facing reality of inheriting a world that only offers them an ever increasing cesspit.

Education has been crippled in dealing out any semblance of discipline. It's not cool to be smart. The cops have had their hands tied with much softer pointless measures put in place. Relegated to being revenue agents and chasing targets instead of policing. Political correctness has gone nuts and is choking everything from doing it's job. The law system is just a mass of bureaucracy that is out to save money and serve it's self than help any one in any meaningful manner. Asbo's are a badge of honour. Prison is not even remotely a deterrent in the first place.  Prison is a holiday camp in many ways, friends respect and drugs all in easy access. It is also a good school of how to be a better criminal. What is not to like about not needing a Cv, working the hours you want and getting pure profit, better than being poor schmuck who can barely feed themselves or buy the latest xbox title. So much crime is 'poverty' driven. Generations have grown up with television being their sole parent. So is it surprising that these so called 'feral youth' espouse the virtues of sociopaths? Their estates and gangs giving them more 'bruv' love where violence is the measure of a man. Eight yearolds are seen looting booze while their parents stand idly by. Or even bring their own children out to watch.

Natural lemming mentality has kicked in, they are rioting so I will do it too. Ah a nice shiny laptop I can flog that. For the first time there is a social medium to convey messages that organise things across the country. I don't think this is politically motivated in the way people plumbing the depths of understanding think it is. This is yob culture that has been allowed to grow and develop and is now taking what it wants and having a good time while doing it. The warning signs have been there for some time. This is just symptomatic of greater issues that have long gone ignored.

Last night rumours where going round of something kicking off in my home city, a lot of police were on the street. I have also heard from various friends across the country that smaller incidents have taken place but are not really making it into the papers. Somewhat unnerving times. Stay safe every one.

[Primarch]

As I heard one person say it
"Britain must be the only country where people wearing £100 runners can organize rioting with their £300 blackberry's and blame impoverishment."
Ignoring the first bit of the sentence, but the rest is making an amusing point.

[Nadir]

I think this is rather intelligent

To seek to explain is not to seek to excuse. Of course these are acts of individual criminality. But we have a duty to ask ourselves why there are people who feel they have nothing to lose, and everything to gain, from wanton vandalism and looting. We cannot afford to let this pass, to calm the situation down, only to find ourselves in this position again in the future.

Via

[Syauglan]

To seek to explain is not to seek to excuse. Of course these are acts of individual criminality. But we have a duty to ask ourselves why there are people who feel they have nothing to lose, and everything to gain, from wanton vandalism and looting. We cannot afford to let this pass, to calm the situation down, only to find ourselves in this position again in the future.

Eden, please don't put your faith in that guy. There is certainly more to come and Ed Milliband, together with the political establishment as a whole, will be helpless to mitigate the worst of it until they orientate their vision around the truly big issue of the 21st century; the catastrophically unsustainable structure of modern society.

Its not possible to attribute the recent riots directly to resource scarcity in the same way its not possible to attribute a particular extreme weather event to climate change. However, there is an overall global pattern that can be seen. The competition for fuels to drive modern civilisation is getting more aggressive and the extraction of them more expensive. That is driving up the cost of everything in general which can't continue indefinitely because we can't improve efficiency indefinitely. This, together with other systemic factors driving the economic downturn are still only beginning to unfold.

Inevitably the cost of living in the UK will continue to increase relative to average income and the bureaucratic infrastructure will continue to buckle under the strain of disenfranchised people who find themselves priced out of food, fuel and housing. The UK is going to be plunged into one crisis after another related to energy, economy and government. Even if the deterioration is gracefully gradual you can expect far more social unrest as pressures build up and burst.

[OldSchoolGamer]

Eden, please don't put your faith in that guy. There is certainly more to come and Ed Milliband, together with the political establishment as a whole, will be helpless to mitigate the worst of it until they orientate their vision around the truly big issue of the 21st century; the catastrophically unsustainable structure of modern society.

Its not possible to attribute the recent riots directly to resource scarcity in the same way its not possible to attribute a particular extreme weather event to climate change. However, there is an overall global pattern that can be seen. The competition for fuels to drive modern civilisation is getting more aggressive and the extraction of them more expensive. That is driving up the cost of everything in general which can't continue indefinitely because we can't improve efficiency indefinitely. This, together with other systemic factors driving the economic downturn are still only beginning to unfold.

Inevitably the cost of living in the UK will continue to increase relative to average income and the bureaucratic infrastructure will continue to buckle under the strain of disenfranchised people who find themselves priced out of food, fuel and housing. The UK is going to be plunged into one crisis after another related to energy, economy and government. Even if the deterioration is gracefully gradual you can expect far more social unrest as pressures build up and burst.

+1

And this same problem will spread to America.  It's going to take a little more time, because America is a somewhat wealthier society, and the population is more conditioned to blame itself for poverty.  "Doh!  It's MY fault I didn't pick an elite mother's birth canal to come into the world through...I'll serve my punishment in this life and try harder to be a trust-fund baby in the next..."  But neoconservative indoctrination isn't going to hold for long when things began their steeper decline by the middle of the decade.

[Callie Del Noire]

I hate to say this.. I really don't want to be 'that guy' but.. we (as the western world) did this to ourselves.

The UK is a few decades ahead of the US, but I see a lot of this coming in the US too.

We, the west, have let jobs vanish because they were 'low paying' or 'can be done more cheaply elsewhere'. We let our companies export jobs and did little or nothing to fill the wholes those jobs left when they were 'exported/outsourced'. It's always easier to ignore things.

Call me stupid/ignorant or such, but when you eliminate jobs in your primary market (as well as your competitors) who is going to buy your stuff, becuase while worker X (who worked at your factory is out a job) might not buy your product but his earnings circulate through the community up to six times before leaving. That is money that goes to banks, grocery stores, utlities and elsewhere. Where those people might be among your target audience.

We as a society need to learn that the 'short term' profit view is going to ruin us. Look over the last 20 years and how big business has changed from '5 to 10 years' in planning to 'how to maximize profits' this quarter.

Looking at a pool of unemployed people within your own country, can a businessman NOT find a way to profit from it. Legally?

We need to change some of the practices of business, offer them incentives that will bring them back, and realize one very important thing. Education IS NEEDED. That is one of the worse areas that government through out the '1st world' is failing. It doesn't show 'profit' therefore business doesn't want to be taxed for it, conservative idiots think it's 'irrelevant' and liberal idiots insist on 'leveling' the field by bringing it from a task to be worked on to a punch card that anyone can get through.

Rant done. We, as a people, set this up. We need to reform the system, bait the businesses back and return to a long term outlook rather than a short term foolishly reckless outlook that came out of the School of Business a la Gordon Gecko.

[Nadir]

Eden, please don't put your faith in that guy.

Faith? No. I don't trust any politician, I just said it was intelligent. He's looking in the right direction.

I think I'm going to retire from this discussion - I'm never any good at them. *smiles* Thanks for the natter, darlings.

[Oniya]

I don't dispute that there are discontented people out there, and that there could very well be food riots and civil unrest over unemployment before too long, but so far, the information I've seen is that these are not those riots.  There might be an element of racial tension involved, however.   The precipitating event was the shooting of a man by the police (the focus is either on the fact that he was a known drug dealer or that he was the father of four, depending on which side you talk to).  I know that the family of that man wanted a non-violent protest, and the riots broke out sometime during that.

[Syauglan]

Oniya I don't think these riots are those riots yet either but they demonstrate how fragile civil society already is in London and some other UK cities. I take that as a warning. Also, although its unwise to point to any particular thing or another as responsible for the escalation and spread of the riots, it would be strange to say, for example, that the utterly bleak economic prospects of the young, boredom due to unemployment and cuts to the police force weren't contributing pressures. We can be fairly certain these pressures will get worse and compound with others which are connected with the global economy struggling with the limits of growth.

We as a society need to learn that the 'short term' profit view is going to ruin us. Look over the last 20 years and how big business has changed from '5 to 10 years' in planning to 'how to maximize profits' this quarter.

Ugh! I hear you. If there is one impulse we could all do with subduing its seeking short term profit, no matter how paltry, over long term gain. If we examine the decisions we make over time or even in the course of just one day the chances are a large majority of the the obviously bad decisions will all be due to wanting instant gratification.

[Callie Del Noire]

Ugh! I hear you. If there is one impulse we could all do with subduing its seeking short term profit, no matter how paltry, over long term gain. If we examine the decisions we make over time or even in the course of just one day the chances are a large majority of the the obviously bad decisions will all be due to wanting instant gratification.

Growing up in the 70s.. I remember the first part of the decade as 'long term planning will put us here by 198X' and then things like R&D tax breaks going away and deregulation becoming the order of the day. Then it was folks like Frank Lorenzo who essentially castrated the 'Big 5' in American airlines (and PanAm as well). Those he didn't buy outright he ruined. What for? A quick in and out profit that wasn't illegal because of the way regulations had been changed.

Then you had guys come in and buy out companies who were making steady profits/income because they could be bought out for less than their asset worth and sold off for a quick buck.

Big Business used to be planning, investing and 'growing your market'. Today it's all about Gordon Gekko's famous saying 'Greed is Good'. The whole mortgage crisis was because a few brokers in the right place didn't want to lose their quarterly bonuses as the market wound down and instead bottled up the toxic mortgages and passed them back and forth to keep them from popping up till the market collapsed under the weight of their fraud.

I used to joke about 'Business Ethics' but today.. I wish that they would put it back in the curriculum. This 'what is right for me no matter what' crap is ruining too many folks. If they spent half as much energy in looking for ways to rebuild their economy or to encourage growth at home, there would be no need for outsourcing. You can outsource, lean manage or micro-economy (or whatever power word of the day) here if you put forth the effort.

England is definitely not lacking for labor looking for work and you can't tell me the rust belt, or the south (Florida is at about 12% unemployment right now) don't have options here in the US.

I find it ironic that one major factor that could encourage reinvestment here in the US is a poison pill for presidents. Every candidate that had spoken out about lowering the 35% corporate tax rate to something lower had FAILED to get elected.

[Neroon]

I think someone earlier in the thread said that perhaps the post sickening thing about all of this is the sight of various politicians seeking to make political capital out of the disorder and I have to say that I agree with them.  The sight of Diane Abbott on Newsnight claimimg that these riots were the natural result of having a Tory government was a particularly vile piece of opportunism.  While it was true that the last rioting comparable to this were the riots of 1981, the fact is that summer rioting has been a fact of life in Britain for many years, including when Ms Abbott's party were in power.

Such riots may not happen every year but they do occur with a depressing regularity and, to be perfectly honest, the only thing about these riots that has surprised me is the fact the didn't occur last year or the year before.  Basically, there are a whole number of factors that have contributed to the outbreaks of rioting across Britain and while some of those are economic and political, others stem from more basic social issues.

One of the things I have noticed, teaching in designated "London overspill" schools is how the attitudes of teenagers have changed over the last six or seven years.  Pretty much the attitudes have been changing over the last quarter century but in the last few years the rate of change has increased dramatically.  The reason for this is the fact that school discipline has become increasingly toothless: when the most severe sanction you can apply to disaffected students is to give them time off school, you have to wonder what that teaches them.  When that is linked to the fact that teachers who raise their voices to students can now end up being looked at as being overly harsh (it happened to me five years ago and all I did was raise my voice to be heard over the class) then we have a recipe for disaster.

Such a policy base has been pretty well eviden in schools in England for the last 15 years or so.  However, like a lot of things, it takes time for it to filter through so that the students realise it.  Moreover, one of the ways parents learn to control their children is to apply the controls that were used when they were children.  In part this will be by emulating their own parents and in part this will be by emulating their teachers.  When teachers' discipline is toothless, so to will parental discipline become.  So in the last seven years or so, we have children coming through whose parents were ineffectually disciplined and are thus ineffective in disciplining children themselves.  This has resulted in the current dramatic increase in school disorder.

The current child protection climate, in which the allegations of a child supersede the natural law of "innocent until proven guilty" and the hair trigger with which social services gets involved means that children learn that they are pretty well untouchable.  Now, I've got no beef with the idea of child protection, indeed, I an vehement in chasing down cases of abuse and neglect when I discover them.  However, there needs to be a proper balance which, unfortunately, has been lacking for decades.

So both the lack of school discipline and the focus on children's rights has created a cohort of teenagers who are primarily focussed on their own rights and their own needs and who think that any form of authority is a joke.  The one thing that schools do well in regard to controlling kids is to keep them in school.  Indeed, it is one of the prime foci in any school improvement plan.  Sowhat tends to happen is that, during term, these unruly teens are at least kept off the streets.

During the long summer holiday, however, that doesn't happen and when you couple this with long hours of daylight, the beginnings of the current situation become apparent.  It's no surprise that most civil disorder in the UK occurs in the summer; there is more time for it and the streets are flooded with disaffected teens.  One of the great successes of the last Labour government was to label such unrest as being a result of binge drinking.  So the periodic seasonal disturbances in English town centres were seen as being individual incidents of drunken yobbery.  The problem became one of drinking culture as opposed to one of civil order.  This change in government emphasis occured in 2004 after the Leeds riots (then and in 2001), which the Kaiser Chiefs immortalised in their song.  When the summer riots that occured were too large to be discribed as being the result of drunkenness, they were described as being anticapitalist in nature.

The Labour government weren't alone in doing this.  The previous Tory administration linked Summer disorder in the nineties to "New Age Travellers".  While the initial sparks that caused the disorder might have been the police wanting to move new age travellers on or a demonstration about a G-whatever-number-it-isat-the-moment summit or whatever, the majority of such violence is unlinked to that initial cause and is the result of conditions that politicians of all parties have fostered.

I accused Diane Abott of political opportunism earlier and while that's accurate, it doesn't mean that there isn't a kernel of truth in what she said.  The cuts imposed by the coalition have acted to make a breakdown into disorder more likely.  However, they are,  believe a contributory factor rather than the uderlying cause.  The main cause is a social one and one that British society does not want to face, that we are all responsible for the problems.  Until we face up to the fact that sometimes we need to be hard on our young to ensure that they respect the fabric of society, all that will happen is that the politicians will play football with the situation, relabel it as a different problem or merely deal with the symptom, not the cause, and claim victory when the cold and dark of autumn and winter cause the disorder to dissipate.

[Oniya]

The reason for this is the fact that school discipline has become increasingly toothless: when the most severe sanction you can apply to disaffected students is to give them time off school, you have to wonder what that teaches them.  When that is linked to the fact that teachers who raise their voices to students can now end up being looked at as being overly harsh (it happened to me five years ago and all I did was raise my voice to be heard over the class) then we have a recipe for disaster.

The current child protection climate, in which the allegations of a child supersede the natural law of "innocent until proven guilty" and the hair trigger with which social services gets involved means that children learn that they are pretty well untouchable.  Now, I've got no beef with the idea of child protection, indeed, I an vehement in chasing down cases of abuse and neglect when I discover them.  However, there needs to be a proper balance which, unfortunately, has been lacking for decades.

During the long summer holiday, however, that doesn't happen and when you couple this with long hours of daylight, the beginnings of the current situation become apparent.  It's no surprise that most civil disorder in the UK occurs in the summer; there is more time for it and the streets are flooded with disaffected teens.

Until we face up to the fact that sometimes we need to be hard on our young to ensure that they respect the fabric of society, all that will happen is that the politicians will play football with the situation, relabel it as a different problem or merely deal with the symptom, not the cause, and claim victory when the cold and dark of autumn and winter cause the disorder to dissipate.

Now, this makes sense with the things I've read.  I can't speak for the political aspect, but kids bailing out of school because 'it doesn't matter', and then being unwilling or unable to do anything more with themselves ties in with every aspect of this.  (Heck, summer rioting dates back until at least the '70s.)

[Callie Del Noire]

 

Now, this makes sense with the things I've read.  I can't speak for the political aspect, but kids bailing out of school because 'it doesn't matter', and then being unwilling or unable to do anything more with themselves ties in with every aspect of this.  (Heck, summer rioting dates back until at least the '70s.)

It's not as bad as the Belfast/Londonderry riots I saw growing up in Ireland on BBC. No one is throwing acid bombs at the cops.  (yet)

[Oniya]

*shudders*  Thank goodness for that.

[Callie Del Noire]

*shudders*  Thank goodness for that.

I arrived in Newtowneforbes, Republic of Ireland, about six months after the death of Lord Montbatten. Growing up as a Southern Protestant of Scotch decent in an Irish Catholic school was an education. Part of it was having 3 grades in one room the other part was getting the unholy hell beat out of me occasionally for reasons I didn't understand.

I remember seeing those riots and wondering why? Then seeing the Orangemen Parades..and thinking 'what a bunch of tools'. Seeing that sort of thing at nine was an education for a white bread kid from middle class suburbia.

By the time I got home, I took away a very different view of things. Of course realizing that you'd picnicked on an 2000+pound mine buried under a crossroad only 10 miles from the border makes things scary clear. (This was right after the Ulster forces got the right to chase the IRA a certain distance across the border).

Nothing like seeing that 'country corner' you picnicked at during Easter break turned into a massive crater that scares the hell out of you.

But the thing that gets me most were the riots. I always remember the riots.

This time around I haven't seen any vids of the cops shooting folks with riot batons or rubber bullets yet though. Makes me wonder what has changed in the last 30 odd years since I lived in Ireland. The snide smart ass cynic in me wonders if folks were getting tear gassed or such would they keep up the rioting.

I did find one interesting article about the looted goodies that are popping up on Ebay.

http://dvice.com/archives/2011/08/all-phones-loot.php

[Oniya]

Mr. Oniya used to work in a store that sold cell-phones  I read that article to him and he went 'Oh yeah!  Then just let someone try to get it activated - charge 'em with possession of stolen property.'

[Callie Del Noire]

Mr. Oniya used to work in a store that sold cell-phones  I read that article to him and he went 'Oh yeah!  Then just let someone try to get it activated - charge 'em with possession of stolen property.'

I'm sure, for the sufficiently savvy, there are work arounds but for Joe Q Average-Citizen it's going to be a rude surprise to find out your phone you got such a good deal on ebay is a brick.

[Missy]

Or like it's put from one of the english web comic artists I follow said.



Okay it's like this.. as one movie character once side. "You don't shit where you eat." And these idiots are doing just that.

I've been refraining from saying "Just shoot the little fuckers", partly because it's a little extreme an approach and also because I'm not sure Martial Law is absolutely necessary. Manpower seems to be the main problem so you can send in the military to help round them up without having to kill anyone. Maybe even load some dummy rounds into your tanks and scare them shitless.

I absolutely agree though, these kids are just a bunch of brain-dead good for nothing degenerates and some lead to the brain-pan might actually improve their intellect a little. Like I said I don't think it's really necessary to kill any of these people, though I wouldn't feel sorry if some of them did die.

In the end the situation can probably be stabilized fairly easily and these kids will hopefully get some time. I don't know exactly what the laws are for it, either in the U.S. or the U.K., but personally I think twenty years sounds fair. I think they gave up their right to walk around on the street the moment they started breaching other people's rights. Including the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

[Syauglan]

I'm curious, Neroon, as to specifics regarding adequately toothy discipline to apply in schools. What would you like to be able to do to your pupils to keep them in line that you are prevented from currently?

Regarding the link between a lack of hard discipline and greater social disorder, is there any evidence beyond your personal opinion that might help to persuade someone, like myself, who suspects confirmation bias is largely responsible for your observations and conclusions? As far as I'm aware studies show there is a very strong link between disorder in schools and socioeconomic deprivation. If there is another reliable link, I'd love to hear about it.

I find it significant that four years ago Unicef rated British children as the unhappiest in a study of 21 wealthy western nations. Do you suppose the top 10 countries listed in the study are known to be harder on their youth than the UK? I wonder how much summer rioting goes on in the top 10?

I absolutely agree though, these kids are just a bunch of brain-dead good for nothing degenerates and some lead to the brain-pan might actually improve their intellect a little.

Bound to help matters. I mean, that approach is working well for Syria, and what a wonderful model of society Syria is. The UK should be more like that.

[Missy]

Bound to help matters. I mean, that approach is working well for Syria, and what a wonderful model of society Syria is. The UK should be more like that.

Which is kind of why I don't say everything I think, I can really go over the top if I don't watch myself.

[Silk]

Which is kind of why I don't say everything I think, I can really go over the top if I don't watch myself.

Well there is very little help for people who think that destroying what few employers are in the area is somehow going to increase their job chances/prospects.

[Missy]

Well there is very little help for people who think that destroying what few employers are in the area is somehow going to increase their job chances/prospects.

Which is why I wouldn't lose any sleep over it if they declared martial law and some of them died.

But I also think we should be careful not to rush to doing something too extreme, if we can find a way without killing them then it would definitely be preferable. The daughters of Mother Liberty aren't tyrants even in the most extreme of circumstance.

The important thing is to protect the rights and liberties of those law abiding citizens who are victimized by these degenerates.

At the end of the day we'll do all we can, but if they force us to take it that far then it was them that took it so far, we are responsible for protecting ourselves and our families. Whether those families are united by blood, nationality, or liberty.

[Zakharra]

  You have cricket bats, steel piping and such. you don't need guns to defend, just people willing to stand up and beat the living shit out of these thugs and goons. most of them would run when they are the ones to suffer pain. A few broken bones and skulls might be what's needed to sort out the rioters who are doing it

Bound to help matters. I mean, that approach is working well for Syria, and what a wonderful model of society Syria is. The UK should be more like that.

Those rioters, I believe, want more freedom and liberty. These rioters are mainly out to 1; steal things, 2; cause trouble and 3; have fun.  It stops being fun when  your bones are the ones being broken. Plus as others have pointed out, they are absolutely not helping their cause with the common person since that is the type suffering the most in these riots.

[Syauglan]

It seems vigilantism has become a theme in this thread but I'm not sure why.

The important thing is to protect the rights and liberties of those law abiding citizens who are victimized by these degenerates.

The important thing is to protect the rights and liberties of all citizens. A just society is a society where no one is above the law, including vigilantes.

You have cricket bats, steel piping and such. you don't need guns to defend, just people willing to stand up and beat the living shit out of these thugs and goons. most of them would run when they are the ones to suffer pain. A few broken bones and skulls might be what's needed to sort out the rioters who are doing it

Wow. I'm truly sorry to read this. The severe physical beating of people, mostly kids in the case of the riots, would be a despicable response to theft and property damage. Luckily most wouldn't be willing to do this because they're not monsters.

Those rioters, I believe, want more freedom and liberty. These rioters are mainly out to 1; steal things, 2; cause trouble and 3; have fun.  It stops being fun when your bones are the ones being broken. Plus as others have pointed out, they are absolutely not helping their cause with the common person since that is the type suffering the most in these riots.

Well those rioters are protestors for the most part in Syria's case. Regardless, the use of lethal or excessively violent means to control disorderly people is ethically and morally reprehensible. It shouldn't and it wouldn't matter what rioters are rioting for.

[Missy]

The important thing is to protect the rights and liberties of all citizens. A just society is a society where no one is above the law, including vigilantes.

Agreed, which is why I'm not pushing straight for a state of martial law.

When a person commits a crime or takes action against the civil rights of another he or she accepts the consequences of those actions and those with the ability are ethically required to oppose those who commit as much by those means which are 1) within their ability and 2) within their authority.

Unfourtunately, these degenerates often opt not to cooperate with the authorities. It is these criminals who determine what is necessary to resolve the issue, all others are acting upon our ethical obligations to ensure all citizens retain their civil liberties. Particularly from those who choose not to respect the basic rights of others.

[Neroon]

I'm curious, Neroon, as to specifics regarding adequately toothy discipline to apply in schools. What would you like to be able to do to your pupils to keep them in line that you are prevented from currently?

I would change three things.

1) Give teachers the ability to make the current sanction we use enforceable.  At the moment they are not. Pupils can- and do- walk out of detentions and teachers are not allowed to bar their way.  Similarly, pupils can disrupt learning with such things mobile phones yet there is no legal ability for teachers to conficate such items, much less search for them to preempt such disruption.

2) Remove the sanctions that effectively prevent schools from permanently excluding problem pupils.  At the moment, schools that permanently exclude problem pupiils are likely to be deemed to be failing in an Ofsted inpection.  Furthermore, schools face financial sanctions for every pupil they exclude.  When you add to it that almost every exclusion is applealed and that, currently about half of them are overturned, we have a situation where something that a school does in the very last resort only resolves the problem half of the time.  So pupils are given the message that the school's ultimate sanction is unenforceable.

3) Restore the presumption of innocence in the face of pupil allegations.  As it is, if a pupil alleges that a teacher has spoken inappropriately, physicaly restrained them or stepped beyond the bounds of acceptable behaviour in any way, the pupils words are presumed to be more truthful than the teacher's.  Thus students will make allegations against the teachers that punish them as a means of retaliation.

There does not need to be any particularly harsh form of discipline, it just has to be capable of being enforced, so that children realise that if they break rules, negative consequences will affect them.  At the moment that is not the case and so a valuable life lesson is not being learned.

Regarding the link between a lack of hard discipline and greater social disorder, is there any evidence beyond your personal opinion that might help to persuade someone, like myself, who suspects confirmation bias is largely responsible for your observations and conclusions? As far as I'm aware studies show there is a very strong link between disorder in schools and socioeconomic deprivation. If there is another reliable link, I'd love to hear about it.

Actually, the link there is more to do with parental attitude than one of socioeconomic class, which was recognise even as far back as the 1980's in Ivan Reid's The Sociology of School and Education.  The apparent link between good pupil behaviour and socio-econimic group is due to the fact that there is a link between parental attitudes to both education and child behaviour.  Over the decades, it has been my experience that the attitudes of more affluent parents have not altered significantly while those of parents in less affluent groups has.  Why that might be the case, I don't know. 

However, when I started teaching in the late eighties in an inner city school, the typical attitude of parents was supportive of school discipline and would often punish the kid themselves over any sanction the school had imposed.  Now, however, that is not the case and a large number of such parents are indifferent to their children's progress and behaviour.  So the only limits placed on the actions of the real problem kids are the increasingly toothless limits imposed by schools.

I find it significant that four years ago Unicef rated British children as the unhappiest in a study of 21 wealthy western nations. Do you suppose the top 10 countries listed in the study are known to be harder on their youth than the UK? I wonder how much summer rioting goes on in the top 10?

I was involved with the PISA survey you mention, that the OECD organised for UNICEF, in that I was a liaison involved in the collection of the data relevant to science education in my area.  My role was to greet the data collector and round up the kids he wanted to include in the survey.  To be honest, looking at the protocols for how the data was collected, I was surprised that Britain scored so highly.  Selecting children at random and forcing them to miss a lunchbreak to complete an exam and then a survey is not the way to give a positive set of answers, even from those children that didn't just walk out.  I think that in many ways, the structural errors in the data collected there more than outweigh any possible confirmation bias in my opinions.

Bound to help matters. I mean, that approach is working well for Syria, and what a wonderful model of society Syria is. The UK should be more like that.

Really, sarcasm like this is hardly helpful to reasoned debate and does little to aid your argument.  This is a shame, as I actually agree that the primary duty of a society is to protect all of its citizens' rights and freedoms.  However, with rights come responsibilities and with freedom comes the duty to consider the needs of others.  When individuals insist on limiting the rights, freedoms and safeties of others, then it is right for society as a whole, through the law to bring those individuals to justice.  This includes not just rioters but any vigilantes that seek to usurp the rule of law.

I firmly believe that violence is the last resort of the incompetent.  However, that is because I believe that the incompetent will capitulate to the unacceptable before considering violence, while the competent will resort to violence before such capitulation is necessary.  Excessive violence is wrong and I see very few situations where it can be justified.  However, that does not mean that all violence is necessarily wrong, if used in noble aims.  For my mind, there are fewer aims more noble than protecting the liberty and way of life of one's society.

[Zakharra]

It seems vigilantism has become a theme in this thread but I'm not sure why.

The important thing is to protect the rights and liberties of all citizens. A just society is a society where no one is above the law, including vigilantes.

When the police cannot protect your property, you have an obligation to do it yourself.

Wow. I'm truly sorry to read this. The severe physical beating of people, mostly kids in the case of the riots, would be a despicable response to theft and property damage. Luckily most wouldn't be willing to do this because they're not monsters.

Breaking into stores and homes, stealing stuff, burning buildings and cars, beating up and intentionally hurting people doesn't call for a harder response?  I'm sorry, but if any mob tried that in my home and area, you can bet there would be some of their blood on the ground. I'll worry about their civil rights when they stop violating mine. To stand by and passively let them do it and wait for the police to respond is asinine. They'll be gone long before the cops arrive.

Understand though, I am advocating this as a defensive measure. That it should only be done when the rioters are in their area.  Defense I believe is still legal...

Well those rioters are protestors for the most part in Syria's case. Regardless, the use of lethal or excessively violent means to control disorderly people is ethically and morally reprehensible. It shouldn't and it wouldn't matter what rioters are rioting for.

And the nature of the riots in Syria is different than that in England atm.

To your last sentence, let me respond with this;  'Your rights end when your fist touches my nose.'  Riot all you want, but do it where I live and you -will- be hurt. Break, steal and burn things and you lost some of your civil rights right there.

[Syauglan]

I would change three things.

I see. Heh. I won't write out why I think the restrictions you pointed to as unhelpful are important to keep in place because I think both of us are just going to be firmly at odds over some issues. When it comes to the limitations around exclusion, well, maybe there is some middle ground. For a time in the UK I was an outreach tutor for young violent offenders. Most of the kids I had to work with had been practically unteachable and highly disruptive in conventional classrooms. Without doubt they needed special help and without it everyone was going to be worse off in the long run. Trying to keep such students in school for fear of financial penalisation or inspection failures isn't a good solution.

Actually, the link there is more to do with parental attitude than one of socioeconomic class, which was recognise even as far back as the 1980's in Ivan Reid's The Sociology of School and Education.  The apparent link between good pupil behaviour and socio-econimic group is due to the fact that there is a link between parental attitudes to both education and child behaviour.  Over the decades, it has been my experience that the attitudes of more affluent parents have not altered significantly while those of parents in less affluent groups has.  Why that might be the case, I don't know.

So, the link is socioeconomic class, which you confirm here encompasses parental attitudes. Agreed.

However, when I started teaching in the late eighties in an inner city school, the typical attitude of parents was supportive of school discipline and would often punish the kid themselves over any sanction the school had imposed.  Now, however, that is not the case and a large number of such parents are indifferent to their children's progress and behaviour.  So the only limits placed on the actions of the real problem kids are the increasingly toothless limits imposed by schools.

If this is really an overall pattern I suspect the post WWII hope of greater social mobility and equality through education has been lost. To push this again, many studies have shown a strong link between socioeconomic class and achievement in schooling, which tends to mirror existing discrimination. Maybe parents of less affluent students have picked up on that.

I was involved with the PISA survey you mention, that the OECD organised for UNICEF, in that I was a liaison involved in the collection of the data relevant to science education in my area.  My role was to greet the data collector and round up the kids he wanted to include in the survey.  To be honest, looking at the protocols for how the data was collected, I was surprised that Britain scored so highly.  Selecting children at random and forcing them to miss a lunchbreak to complete an exam and then a survey is not the way to give a positive set of answers, even from those children that didn't just walk out.  I think that in many ways, the structural errors in the data collected there more than outweigh any possible confirmation bias in my opinions.

OK. That is possible but I think you'd understand that, in the interests of protecting against confirmation bias, I would have to trust the balance of evidence as its presented over an anecdotal account of poor methodology. And besides, if I was to go with anecdotal accounts then I'd swing towards believing British children are subject to overly severe treatment in and out of school, as several friends from other countries far further up that list have strongly complained to me about.

Really, sarcasm like this is hardly helpful to reasoned debate and does little to aid your argument.

Exasperation can defeat me sometimes.

[Syauglan]

Breaking into stores and homes, stealing stuff, burning buildings and cars, beating up and intentionally hurting people doesn't call for a harder response?  I'm sorry, but if any mob tried that in my home and area, you can bet there would be some of their blood on the ground. I'll worry about their civil rights when they stop violating mine. To stand by and passively let them do it and wait for the police to respond is asinine. They'll be gone long before the cops arrive.

You were advocating an extremely aggressive vigilante response, not a merely harder response. Its that kind of escalation of violence and chaos would be asinine. Much better to wait for the police to do their job.

Typically there is a wave of outraged reactionary demands for harder more brutal treatment of people involved in social disorder whenever things like riots occur. That's about revenge, not justice or making things better.

[Silk]

Well there has been some additional news that armed police officers have now been called in to help cleans things up, its supprising just how obedient disruptives youths can be when they have police dogs and Heckler and koths pointed towards them.

[Zakharra]

You were advocating an extremely aggressive vigilante response, not a merely harder response. Its that kind of escalation of violence and chaos would be asinine. Much better to wait for the police to do their job.

Typically there is a wave of outraged reactionary demands for harder more brutal treatment of people involved in social disorder whenever things like riots occur. That's about revenge, not justice or making things better.

I'm not advocating vigilantism, just defending your home and business. I'm not saying people should go out and kill people Punisher style, but mainly self defense. Which is what most here are saying too I believe. If someone breaks into my home and/or business and I can do something about it, you'd better believe me that person will be the one hurting the most. I'm not going to let hoodlums and thugs threaten my home and family while I can do something about it.

If you are calling self defense 'Vigilantism', what would be your response then if that happened to you?

It sounds like these 'youths' do respond when force is shown, as the post above suggests.

[Syauglan]

Insurance is the best protection against criminal damage and theft. If for some some reason physical self defense of your property or business seems like the only option that's unfortunately a very dangerous situation. I don't doubt that you could defend yourself very well but there is always risk. If I was close to you and you got yourself hurt by being a hero, I'd be pissed!

The thing is, I'm not opposed to self defense. I'd just rather be safe than proud. I was beaten on countless times when I was younger, which was a consequence of growing up in rough town and being the sort of person people feel they need to have a pop at in order to prove themselves. Despite that I can't recall ever striking someone in defense except one occasion when a close friend went into a rage during a friendly sparring match and needed to be shut down quickly, before he seriously hurt his opponent. In fact, the only times I've got close to physical violence in defense have involved family, friends or others being threatened with it. Almost always the situation can be resolved with minimum harm to everyone involved, either through talking someone down or by a show of teeth and claws, so to speak.

Incidentally, I doubt a greater show of force has made much difference to the rioting in England. Its more the case things were winding down anyway.

[Missy]

I personally think: "If you didn't want me to drop your brain-pan you shouldn't have been in my home"

Of course that's entirely different from shooting an unarmed man in the back.

If it's that moment and he's making it me or him, it's gonna be him.

However, I agree vengeance is not justice.

[LunarSage]

I was told something by a friend of mine and I'm curious how true it is.

He said the riots were started because a cop shot a man to death, claiming he pulled a gun on him (when in fact eyewitnesses say there was no gun pulled) and instead of apologizing and firing the officer, the police department backed him up and said the eyewitnesses were lying... and when the people began a peaceful demonstration against the police, one of the cops opened fire on one of the demonstrators, so the demonstrators rushed the police and the riots started.

[Lipsy]

I know I'm being really, really selfish, and my heart goes out to the people of England...but I'm supposed to be there in 6 days. Please, please, please find calm and peace.

All blown over :)

And bad as it was, we are a small country and small activities get lots of attention.

Unless you were on the street were it was happening you wouldn't know about it. Most of London and Manchester, Birmingham and Liverpool simply went on about their daily business.

[Silk]

But then thats what Britain is great for, 7/7, 9/11 london riots, ultimately it's buisness as usual in the UK. No matter how bad things get, the people of Britain just bite their lip and get on with their day.

[Sandman02]

"Riot is the language of the unheard..."

[Missy]

"Riot is the language of the unheard..."

It's extraordinary how aggressive the desperate can become.

[LunarSage]

I was told something by a friend of mine and I'm curious how true it is.

He said the riots were started because a cop shot a man to death, claiming he pulled a gun on him (when in fact eyewitnesses say there was no gun pulled) and instead of apologizing and firing the officer, the police department backed him up and said the eyewitnesses were lying... and when the people began a peaceful demonstration against the police, one of the cops opened fire on one of the demonstrators, so the demonstrators rushed the police and the riots started.

So is this accurate or false?

[TheGlyphstone]

So is this accurate or false?

Sounds like utter nonsense from all the other reports I've heard. The cops did shoot a man, a reported illegal gun dealer, while making a bust - he had a loaded gun, but never fired it if the ballistics reports are correct (likely cause Han the cops shot first). Later, a peaceful protest was held at the station for several hours before dispersing. Some of them later came back belligerent, armed with weapons, and spoiling for a fight - the rioting started soon afterwards.

[Bayushi]

Insurance is the best protection against criminal damage and theft. If for some some reason physical self defense of your property or business seems like the only option that's unfortunately a very dangerous situation. I don't doubt that you could defend yourself very well but there is always risk. If I was close to you and you got yourself hurt by being a hero, I'd be pissed!

I'm so glad I'm not a citizen/resident of the neutered nation of Great Britain.

I have great insurance for the safety of myself and my home and property. That insurance happens to be a Springfield .45 ACP. You'd be surprised how agreeable someone bent on harming you or robbing you gets when you draw out a firearm.

[lollipop]

While the teens might be the face of the attacks, there are others behind them - people the police are familiar with from causing riots at football games.

Totally not being sarcastic here, but essentially the movie Green Street Hooligans come to life?